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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish


Lightchao42
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Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your favorite base game (and Piranha Plant) newcomer?

  2. 2. Who is your favorite new Echo Fighter?

  3. 3. Who is your favorite Fighters Pass 1 character?



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I'm playing though the Castlevannia advanced collection  and I have to say, the non Belmonts in the series have way more diverse and interesting moveset than the Belmonts. Screw Richter, we should have gotten Nathan Graves or Soma Cruz.

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On 12/27/2021 at 1:37 PM, Perkilator said:

You know, part of me wishes they added a new Assist Trophy with each Fighters Pass character. I know it would've been more work, but it would have made the DLC feel more integrated into the game.

I would have loved DLC bosses. Each DLC fighter getting their own boss to fight would have made their Classic Modes so much more exciting.

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8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm playing though the Castlevannia advanced collection  and I have to say, the non Belmonts in the series have way more diverse and interesting moveset than the Belmonts. Screw Richter, we should have gotten Nathan Graves or Soma Cruz.

Welllll Nathan Graves is a Belmont by another name, like John Morris. He moves just like them and few of his cards manage to do more than his cross sub weapon lol. I'm hoping the Belmonts get to be a koopaling situation in the future with a bunch more of them using the same moveset. I remember rooting for Alucard for years but then when I saw Simon Belmont in action it hit me that their moveset is plenty diverse and interesting in Smash. It's having the whip as their "main thing" that makes it since no other character fights with a weapon with quite the same strengths and weaknesses. The whip is longer ranged than a sword, but it's precise enough that you need to aim it. Use the sub weapons to bait your opponent into jumping or dodging into a position that you can precisely hit. But don't camp the ledge because you're weak at recovering and getting opened up can lead to an early death. That's a lot different then your average swordie with wide sweeping arcs who's game plan is "where's you're opponent? Okay, hold in their direction and tap A. You'll hit them if you keep swinging". 

Designing a character for Smash that "can use anything" is tough because whatever you land on, you risk disappointing fans who wanted something else, and you risk confusing players who have to go up against it. I wanted Byleth to be focused on his whip sword and hand to hand combat for instance. Make him a grappler where a tipper hit with the extended sword lets you grab enemies, pulling them toward you or vice versa - like what we got on his Up B.  A character that's threatening in close range and long range, but kind of suffers to control the situation at mid range. But by adding more weapons to his moveset we end up with a guy that has no unique gimmick and totally random attacks that aren't associated with him very well in the source material. I'm kind of down on Mega Man for the same reason, it's just a hodge podge of very specialized attacks that aren't working well together on the same character design.

Think about it, how do you design Soma Cruz? Pick what you think are the most cool yet not overpowered souls and weapons? Or do you focus on what's unique about him like using a freaking GUN. A lot of characters (often mute, JRPG protagonists) get pitched with the supposed benefit of "they can use any weapon and any class, so go nuts". But that's just another way of saying they've got no identity, so Sakurai do my homework please.

Edited by Zapp Branniglenn
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2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Welllll Nathan Graves is a Belmont by another name, like John Morris. He moves just like them and few of his cards manage to do more than his cross sub weapon lol. I'm hoping the Belmonts get to be a koopaling situation in the future with a bunch more of them using the same moveset. I remember rooting for Alucard for years but then when I saw Simon Belmont in action it hit me that their moveset is plenty diverse and interesting in Smash. It's having the whip as their "main thing" that makes it since no other character fights with a weapon with quite the same strengths and weaknesses. The whip is longer ranged than a sword, but it's precise enough that you need to aim it. Use the sub weapons to bait your opponent into jumping or dodging into a position that you can precisely hit. But don't camp the ledge because you're weak at recovering and getting opened up can lead to an early death. That's a lot different then your average swordie with wide sweeping arcs who's game plan is "where's you're opponent? Okay, hold in their direction and tap A. You'll hit them if you keep swinging". 

 

But the issue with Belmonts moveset is that yes,  it's unique, and yes, it comes from the games...But it's also kind of just spammy and annoying when translated to Smash. I don't find them particularly fun to play as or against. That being said I have no clue how to actually change them to make them more fun while retaining that identity. Though I would like to mod and test out how they'd be if you gave them virtually no end lag while also removing hitstun from their attacks. Meaning they can launch a barrage of projectiles however you can power right through them. It would be a pretty weird moveset and possibly way too weak against fast characters, but if you tweak the damage enough it could prove very interesting.

And yes, I have no clue why they didn't make Richter an alternate costume and add the likes of Trevor and Christopher like Koopalings. It's weird to even har the narrator say just Simon or see Simon written down. The character isn't Simon. He's Simon Belmont.  It's like calling John Redcorn from King of the Hill just John. Also he should have red hair, that's the Simon I know.

Quote

Think about it, how do you design Soma Cruz? Pick what you think are the most cool yet not overpowered souls and weapons? Or do you focus on what's unique about him like using a freaking GUN. A lot of characters (often mute, JRPG protagonists) get pitched with the supposed benefit of "they can use any weapon and any class, so go nuts". But that's just another way of saying they've got no identity, so Sakurai do my homework please.

Well...Yes. coolest weapons that work best for a moveset. However if he requires an identity then you could draw from the Dracula element. The "cannon" souls you need to get the true ending are flame demon, giant bat and succubus, a) references to Dracula as the projectiles he shoots, the animal associated with him and vampire like sucking essence. That's three specials right there, even a recovery, which is usually the most contrived thing to give a character (and Soma even has a back up in that regard with the roc jump thing, I think it's the hippogriff soul. Personally I don't think that should have been in the game when giant bat already existed, took the aforementioned identity away from the game to have the same super jump in all three gba games). Any sufficiently Dracula resembling spirit could be used forbtheblast special. Of course one could also anyway instead of Soma we could just straight up have Dracula as a character, and I wouldn't entirely be against that (objectively though Alucard does seem the most deserving and likely).

As far as his normals go, while the gun is cool and distinctive for Castlevannia, it's not really for Smash. So I'd actually go with his default weapon, a knife. Though I wouldn't object to him having other weapons for smashes or something. Having knife as his most visible weapon would help silence the anime swordsman crowd. Joker is the only character with a knife currently right? Sheik totally should, but doesnt.

I might actually whip up a Soma Cruz moveset in the fighters thread, though right now I want to redo my Tidus moveset.

Edited by Jotari
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52 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

If Dale Gribble joined Smash, would you call him just Dale? I think you could get away with Hank Hill just being called Hank.

Yes I think you could get away with just first names for both of them. Notnfor John Redcorn though. Side note, is it just a bit strange the Captain Falcon is Captain Falcon but Captain Olimar is just Olimar? What is Falcon even a captain of?

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

But the issue with Belmonts moveset is that yes,  it's unique, and yes, it comes from the games...But it's also kind of just Sammy and annoying when translated to Smash. I don't find them particularly fun to play as or against. That being said I have no clue how to actually change them to make them more fun while retaining that identity. Though I would like to mod and test out how they'd be if you gave them virtually no end lag while also removing hitstun from their attacks. Meaning they can launch a barrage of projectiles however you can power right through them. It would be a pretty weird moveset and possibly way too weak against fast characters, but if you tweak the damage enough it could prove very interesting.

And yes, I have no clue why they didn't make Richter an alternate costume and add the likes of Trevor and Christopher like Koopalings. It's weird to even har the narrator say just Simon or see Simon written down. The character isn't Simon. He's Simon Belmont.  It's like calling John Redcorn from King of the Hill just John. Also he should have red hair, that's the Simon I know.

Heh, that's exactly why I love playing Simon: the projectiles. I especially love the Hand Axe for its arcing trajectory.

I too think a Jr./Koopaling situation would have worked excellently here. Simon, Trevor, Christopher, Richter, Juste, Julius, Leon, and Desmond (listed in chronological order of appearance by game release) would work. Though Sonia in place of Desmond would be a neat twist, but her build would have to be tweaked to be rigged properly along with the rest of the Belmonts.

Edited by Lord_Brand
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6 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Heh, that's exactly why I love playing Simon: the projectiles. I especially love the Hand Axe for its arcing trajectory.

I too think a Jr./Koopaling situation would have worked excellently here. Simon, Trevor, Christopher, Richter, Juste, Julius, Leon, and Desmond (listed in chronological order of appearance by game release) would work. Though Sonia in place of Desmond would be a neat twist, but her build would have to be tweaked to be rigged properly along with the rest of the Belmonts.

Another weird issue I have with Belmont is that their attacks feel like they're in the wrong places, mainly based on how similar they are to other characters. Like I just institually feel like the axe should be in the up special slot because that's where Yoshi's eggs go, I feel like the holy water should be.a side special because that's where pk fire goes and I feel like the upper cut should be a down special because it's a bit like flip jump (and obviously the up special has already been taken by the axes). Maybe I'm the only one hit by this phenomenon, though it does make me kind of wish you could remap special attacks (which would be a nice way to introduce custom specials without creating too much work, say each character gets six or seven custom specials and you can equip 4 at once to any special set up you choose. Only issue is that mechanically some specials need to be side specials or neutral specials for the whole turning aspect).

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Simon and Richter being the only Belmonts is fine as is; the Belmonts aren't blank slates like the Heroes are so shunting eight into one slot, with the same taunts and victory poses, would be strange.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yes I think you could get away with just first names for both of them. Notnfor John Redcorn though. Side note, is it just a bit strange the Captain Falcon is Captain Falcon but Captain Olimar is just Olimar? What is Falcon even a captain of?

Because "Captain Falcon" is his full racing title/superhero identity, while Olimar's name is just Olimar. You wouldn't call Captain America just "America", would you?

Sakurai mentioned in the context of Isabelle (on why she isn't "Shizue-san" in Japanese) that titles generally aren't included, which is why Bowser isn't called King Bowser. Dedede is just "Dedede" in Japanese and "King Dedede" elsewhere, and "King K. Rool" is referred to as such in all languages though.

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1 hour ago, Lightchao42 said:

Simon and Richter being the only Belmonts is fine as is; the Belmonts aren't blank slates like the Heroes are so shunting eight into one slot, with the same taunts and victory poses, would be strange.

The solution there is to give them differs t taunts and victory poses. Wouldn't be too difficulty given it's just a animation rigging. Its not something you need to balance. I would actually say the Belmonts and Koopalings are pretty similar in status of bow much they fit into blankslates. Like the Koopalings never even road clown cars before smash bros. They all had their own pretty unique boss fights. Meanwhile Belmonts can be booked down to whip + subweapons (the most distinctive of all being cross, axe and holy water, all that really feels missing is knives). Sure some Belmonts have magic and there are more unique subweapons that appear in one or two games, but by and large that fits them. Like a glove for Simon, Trevor, Christopher and Julius. Richter has slightly more going for him which is precisely the reason he got into the game I'm sure, they decided to give Simon Richter's recovery and final smash and then someone said it's a bit weird Simon is using Richter's attacks (even though it happens in Smash all the time) let's just put Richter in the game (which doesnt actually change any incongruity of Simon using Richter's attacks). I think one would struggle to make distinct and separate moveset for Simon, Richter, Christopher, Trevor and Julius. Juste has a bit more going for him with access to magic and that punch rush (but he still does all the same classic stuff too) and the one from the ps2 game I haven't played is probably more different by virtue if being in a 3d game, but even then boiling down their moveset to whip + axe/holy water/cross + mandatory recovery and final smash would fit the bill well enough to work as costumes. At least of we accept that they simply won't get in the game as if Castlevannia into get a second rep an important character that's completely different like Dracula or Alucard (or Soma) will probably get in before a non echoced Belmont. So if your choice is to randomly include only Richter as an echo of Simon and not make him different in any significant way, or include half a dozen different Belmonts as Koopaling style alternate costumes, I'd rather go with the alternate costumes option as it allows me to play as my favourite Belmont whomever they might be (well actually no, because Soleil is my favourite because I'm a masochist, but I'm sure more people like Trevor and Juste etc).

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Like I just institually feel like the axe should be in the up special slot because that's where Yoshi's eggs go

I'm surprised Yoshi's eggs are still there. Especially since it's referencing a move where you always stopped and aimed with a targeting reticle. It would feel great as the neutral or side special. I know this is the sort of thing that helps make Yoshi unique, but Sakurai's gotta feel for all those kids trying out a character they recognize only to plummet to their death not knowing how Up B works. Maybe they couldn't iron out the bugs with targeting back on the N64 release, and in later entries they covered up for this odd design choice by improving the double jump and giving him a hop when used in the air. Can they not think of a better Up Special? Yoshi's tongue is canonically a tether recovery in Yoshi's Story - albeit only on specific platforms. There's the Egg Launch powerup from the same game where you reel back and flick in the direction you want to go. You could do something cute with riding goonies from Yoshi's Story. If Yoshi were first added to Smash today then you know he'd have a normal double jump and several uses of the Flutter Kick as his Up B that doesn't put him in special fall.

Whatever they do with Yoshi, the only urgent change i would suggest is removing Egg Roll. Even if it's been gradually buffed since Melee, it still has no purpose as a move. I'd rather him be riding Poochy. Same control as Egg Roll but you can dismount like Warios Bike. Ram into somebody near a ledge and dismount in time for the F-air dunk. That would actually be something that complements Yoshi's moveset. So if I were redesigning Yoshi I would

  • Replace Egg Roll with Poochy
  • Replace Egg Lay with a source material-accurate Egg Throw, but make the projectiles weak since throwing stuff diagonally down is just very powerful for gimping recoveries.
  • Remove all of Yoshi's Throws and replace them with the Egg lay effect whenever he lands a grab. Yoshi having debatably the worst grab game in Smash is...definitely odd since we're talking about Yoshi, the guy that eats anything. This dude ought to be some flavor of grappler.
    • Give him a Z-air so that he can still Egg Lay from the air and have a short tether to the ledge if he wants to. 
  • Egg Launch Up B, but you're stuck in that egg state until you reach a ledge or flop onto the ground. Not sure if it should control like in Yoshi's Story or just allow the player to point in the direction they want to fly as it's charging up. 
  • Drastically reduce double jump height to compensate better recovery options.
  • Not a special move change, but Yoshi should definitely make his Wow! sound bite when nailing the F-air dunk. 
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2 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I'm surprised Yoshi's eggs are still there. Especially since it's referencing a move where you always stopped and aimed with a targeting reticle. It would feel great as the neutral or side special. I know this is the sort of thing that helps make Yoshi unique, but Sakurai's gotta feel for all those kids trying out a character they recognize only to plummet to their death not knowing how Up B works. Maybe they couldn't iron out the bugs with targeting back on the N64 release, and in later entries they covered up for this odd design choice by improving the double jump and giving him a hop when used in the air. Can they not think of a better Up Special? Yoshi's tongue is canonically a tether recovery in Yoshi's Story - albeit only on specific platforms. There's the Egg Launch powerup from the same game where you reel back and flick in the direction you want to go. You could do something cute with riding goonies from Yoshi's Story. If Yoshi were first added to Smash today then you know he'd have a normal double jump and several uses of the Flutter Kick as his Up B that doesn't put him in special fall.

Whatever they do with Yoshi, the only urgent change i would suggest is removing Egg Roll. Even if it's been gradually buffed since Melee, it still has no purpose as a move. I'd rather him be riding Poochy. Same control as Egg Roll but you can dismount like Warios Bike. Ram into somebody near a ledge and dismount in time for the F-air dunk. That would actually be something that complements Yoshi's moveset. So if I were redesigning Yoshi I would

  • Replace Egg Roll with Poochy
  • Replace Egg Lay with a source material-accurate Egg Throw, but make the projectiles weak since throwing stuff diagonally down is just very powerful for gimping recoveries.
  • Remove all of Yoshi's Throws and replace them with the Egg lay effect whenever he lands a grab. Yoshi having debatably the worst grab game in Smash is...definitely odd since we're talking about Yoshi, the guy that eats anything. This dude ought to be some flavor of grappler.
    • Give him a Z-air so that he can still Egg Lay from the air and have a short tether to the ledge if he wants to. 
  • Egg Launch Up B, but you're stuck in that egg state until you reach a ledge or flop onto the ground. Not sure if it should control like in Yoshi's Story or just allow the player to point in the direction they want to fly as it's charging up. 
  • Drastically reduce double jump height to compensate better recovery options.
  • Not a special move change, but Yoshi should definitely make his Wow! sound bite when nailing the F-air dunk. 

Flying Yoshi seems like the obvious thing for Yoshi's recovery. It's been around ever since Yoshi's first appearance. They did have it as part of the final smash in Brawl but even that's gone now.

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Here's how I'd map Yoshi's Specials:

  • N: Slurp - Same as before, only now Yoshi can store opponents in his mouth for a brief time much like Kirby and King Dedede, as well as items and even projectiles. You can press down to turn opponents into an egg, or to eat items and restore health.
  • S: Triple Fireball - Yoshi spits out a trio of fireballs, like when he spits out a red shell in Super Mario World.
  • U: Super Wings - Yoshi takes flight with a pair of wings for a short time, similar to when he slurps up a blue shell in SMW.
  • D: Egg Lay - Yoshi lays up to three eggs that follow him around and which he can throw using the attack button.

The Ground Pound becomes his D air. Another possibility is that Egg Throw becomes Yoshi's S special while the triple fireball is the result of Yoshi slurping and spitting out certain items like the Fire Flower or Sparky.

This is another place where my Action button idea would come in handy big time. Adding a third moveset button would do wonders for Smash.

Edited by Lord_Brand
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17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I didnt realize he had a crew working in there.

Indeed. Haven't you ever watched Bobobo? The Blue Falcon, much like Captain Falcon himself, is maintained and operated by a tiny crew of miniature people.

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Ok, I managed to finally get that Chozo Soldiers Spirit from Metroid Dread along with obtaining the newly Evil Ryu spirit. I finally managed to collect all total of 1,513 Spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

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29 minutes ago, Perkilator said:

You know, I wish every IP was public domain just so discussion about certain characters weren’t so complicated.

If only Super Smash Bros was produced in Turkmenistan.

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