Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[Armagon]

I feel that if you were to show the average joe a picture of Cranky Kong, they'd recognize him. Show them a picture of Wrinkly Kong and they'll maybe be able to identify her as DK character but they probably won't know her name. 

[Florete]

5 minutes ago, Slumber said:

So, question:

Why does this not matter to you?

Because it's trivia most people don't know, even if they're familiar with Donkey Kong. My parents know the character "Donkey Kong." They know about the arcade game and the DKC games. They don't know who "Cranky Kong" is, and if they saw him they wouldn't associate him with the Donkey Kong arcade game.

5 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Citation needed.

You can't be serious.

5 minutes ago, Slumber said:

So Cranky being the hint giver in DKC1, the person you trade coins to in DKC2, the dude you play mini-games against in 3, the guy who upgrades your abilities in 64, and sets off the events of several games, including narrating DKCR and being playable in Tropical Freeze is barely more iconic than a character who manages your save data in two games and then dies off-screen and takes up Cranky's original role as hint giver for 64, and then only as a cameo in every game afterward?

Most people will play through the original DKC trilogy seeing him only in the opening (DKC1) or ending. Anyone who plays DKC2 and 3 will see Wrinkly Kong multiple times.

DKC2 is one of my favorite games of all time, I've played it tens of times, and I literally don't even remember what Cranky's role in that game is.

Also, Funky Kong is more iconic than Cranky Kong.

[Anomalocaris]

Cranky Kong is more iconic than Dixie Kong but Dixie Kong is more likely to be playable before him. Smash prioritizes playable characters over NPCs, and Dixie has been playable for much longer than Cranky despite the latter's history. She also has more people requesting her than Cranky, and does pretty well in most unofficial polls (But not as well as King K. Rool).

Edited October 26, 2018 by Anomalocaris

[Zapp Branniglenn]

10 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Bullshit. Now they have to track down and obtain the rights to 8 different characters named Shadow.

I'm on it.

1. Shadow (the hedgehog)
2. Shadow and Interceptor (FF6)
3. Shadow (just a random heartless from Kingdom Hearts)
4. Shadow Kanji (Persona 4)
5. Shadow (the golden retriever from Homeward Bound)
6. Shadow Man (Mega Man 3)
7. The Shadow from Detective Story Magazines
8. Shadowcat (X-Men)

[Fabulously Olivier]

5 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

Cranky Kong is more iconic than Dixie Kong but Dixie Kong is more likely to be playable before him. Smash prioritizes playable characters over NPCs, and Dixie has been playable for much longer than Cranky despite the latter's history.

This. This x100. 

By no means was I suggesting that Cranky would get in over Dixie (but if he did, I'd laugh my ass off and, if I ever got the chance, buy Sakurai a beer for the epic troll). I meant only to say that no, Dixie is not the essential character that some in the Smash community somehow see her as. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Etheus

[Slumber]

2 minutes ago, Florete said:

Because it's trivia most people don't know, even if they're familiar with Donkey Kong. My parents know the character "Donkey Kong." They know about the arcade game and the DKC games. They don't know who "Cranky Kong" is, and if they saw him they wouldn't associate him with the Donkey Kong arcade game.

Most people familiar with Donkey Kong are probably aware of the connection. This isn't some weird Donkey Kong Jr. situation. More people probably know about the Donkey Kong->Cranky Kong connection than people knew Captain Falcon was even a thing before SSB.

5 minutes ago, Florete said:

You can't be serious.

Considering you're the only person saying this, I am. Arguing that he's as iconic as Dixie or slightly less is one thing, but saying he's "certainly lesser-known and lesser-loved" is going to need some backing up.

 

[Fabulously Olivier]

Also, if we're talking about representative icons, here's a fun challenge (meant in jest): find me a more iconic elderly game character than Cranky. There are dozens of women on the cover of games, but how many senile, crotchety old geezers do we have? 

[Florete]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Most people familiar with Donkey Kong are probably aware of the connection. This isn't some weird Donkey Kong Jr. situation. More people probably know about the Donkey Kong->Cranky Kong connection than people knew Captain Falcon was even a thing before SSB.

You're overestimating this. I strongly doubt anyone not acutely aware of DK history knows this. Hell, it was only fan speculation at the actual time of DKC. It wasn't confirmed until much later.

3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Considering you're the only person saying this, I am. Arguing that he's as iconic as Dixie or slightly less is one thing, but saying he's "certainly lesser-known and lesser-loved" is going to need some backing up.

One character is popular enough to star in her own game and get multiple playable appearances in spin-off games.

The other is a comic relief side character until the fifth DKC game.

Dixie Kong has been pretty strongly requested for Smash even before K. Rool was confirmed. The only other time in Smash history I can think of where two characters from the same franchise were both pretty heavily requested was Meta Knight and Dedede. Cranky Kong is hardly a blip on the radar as far as people wanting him in Smash.

How is this something that needs explaining?

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

Also, if we're talking about representative icons, here's a fun challenge (meant in jest): find me a more iconic elderly game character than Cranky. 

Challenge accepted

 

Ok but on a more serious note, i'm actually struggling to think of a more iconic elderly video game character than Cranky Kong.

 

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Florete said:

You're overestimating this. I strongly doubt anyone not acutely aware of DK history knows this. Hell, it was only fan speculation at the actual time of DKC. It wasn't confirmed until much later.

One character is popular enough to star in her own game and get multiple playable appearances in spin-off games.

The other is a comic relief side character until the fifth DKC game.

Dixie Kong has been pretty strongly requested for Smash even before K. Rool was confirmed. The only other time in Smash history I can think of where two characters from the same franchise were both pretty heavily requested was Meta Knight and Dedede. Cranky Kong is hardly a blip on the radar as far as people wanting him in Smash.

How is this something that needs explaining?

Nurse Joy and Officer Jenny are super iconic in Pokemon. They're certainly more iconic than many individual Pokemon. But you also won't see people asking for them in Smash, because they're NPC's and that would be absurd.

[Lightchao42]

I'd say that most gamers with mild knowledge of Donkey Kong Country know who Cranky is, but I wouldn't say he's more well known than Dixie. Dixie has her own game and had some appearances in Mario spinoffs , so those qualities probably make her the most well known Donkey Kong character aside from DK himself and Diddy.

[Raven]

3 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Nurse Joy and Officer Jenny are super iconic in Pokemon. They're certainly more iconic than many individual Pokemon. But you also won't see people asking for them in Smash, because they're NPC's and that would be absurd.

That's a pretty bad choice for comparison.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Also, if we're talking about representative icons, here's a fun challenge (meant in jest): find me a more iconic elderly game character than Cranky. There are dozens of women on the cover of games, but how many senile, crotchety old geezers do we have? 

Solid Snake if you count MGS4. Only in his 40s in that game, but FOX DIE is a hell of a death sentence. Raiden was also very old by the time of Metal Gear Rising Revengeance. Sam Fischer is old but they never portrayed him that way until that ghost recon cameo last year. Google the boxart for Splinter Cell: Conviction, maybe a gameplay trailer. That's a 56 year old dude right there. Heihachi is the most iconic character of Tekken and he's gotten pretty old. Dante's also old, but I don't think he's been the focus of any boxarts since DMC3 where he was still reasonably young. Still playable in new games, however. Geralt from the Witcher. And Ezio Auditore from the Assassin's Creed 2 sequels. I think all of these guys can be seen (currently) as more recognizeable than Cranky Kong. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, Raven said:

That's a pretty bad choice for comparison.

Firstly - how? No, really, how?

Secondly - Hyperbole is a legitimate (and often fun) rhetorical tactic. Sometimes, absurd situations benefit from it.

[Fabulously Olivier]

21 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Solid Snake if you count MGS4. Only in his 40s in that game, but FOX DIE is a hell of a death sentence. Raiden was also very old by the time of Metal Gear Rising Revengeance. Sam Fischer is old but they never portrayed him that way until that ghost recon cameo last year. Google the boxart for Splinter Cell: Conviction, maybe a gameplay trailer. That's a 56 year old dude right there. Heihachi is the most iconic character of Tekken and he's gotten pretty old. Dante's also old, but I don't think he's been the focus of any boxarts since DMC3 where he was still reasonably young. Still playable in new games, however. Geralt from the Witcher. And Ezio Auditore from the Assassin's Creed 2 sequels. I think all of these guys can be seen (currently) as more recognizeable than Cranky Kong. 

You got me at Heihachi.

Dante, Ezio, and Snake are all famous because of their younger incarnations and are overshadowed by these. I suppose you could maybe argue the same for Cranky, but when Dante, Ezio, and Snake appear outside of their series, it is always in their younger incarnation.

Dante and Geralt still look to be middle-aged more than elderly. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Etheus

[Florete]

33 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Nurse Joy and Officer Jenny are super iconic in Pokemon. They're certainly more iconic than many individual Pokemon. But you also won't see people asking for them in Smash, because they're NPC's and that would be absurd.

Apples and oranges.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

Apples and oranges.

But the principal is the same. No one is going to ask for Cranky regardless of whether or not he's popular. He's essentially a joke character, and his potential for a moveset is strange and limited, just like the oranges in this comparison.

 

(That said, I could see him working kind of like Villager or Isabelle, and I'm laughing at the idea.)

[Raven]

26 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Firstly - how? No, really, how?

Secondly - Hyperbole is a legitimate (and often fun) rhetorical tactic. Sometimes, absurd situations benefit from it.

Nobody expects Jenny and Joy to be in Smash because they are so insignificant in the grand scheme of actually representing Pokemon within a non-Pokemon game. There will be literally hundreds of options for Pokemon characters in Smash before we reach these NPCs. You can't say the same thing about Dixy or Cranky.

[Florete]

Leak stuff.

Spoiler

Someone on Reddit attempted to recreate the leaked mural. You're best reading it yourself, but the tl;dr is that even this person is now convinced it is real because there are just so many small changes like small movements of almost every character. For it to be fake the faker would have to be extremely talented and dedicated.

[Anacybele]

2 hours ago, Florete said:

One character is popular enough to star in her own game and get multiple playable appearances in spin-off games.

The other is a comic relief side character until the fifth DKC game.

Dixie Kong has been pretty strongly requested for Smash even before K. Rool was confirmed. The only other time in Smash history I can think of where two characters from the same franchise were both pretty heavily requested was Meta Knight and Dedede. Cranky Kong is hardly a blip on the radar as far as people wanting him in Smash.

How is this something that needs explaining?

I completely agree with this post.

Also, I've been familiar with DK since I played the original DKC on the SNES as a kid and I didn't know Cranky was the original Donkey Kong until maybe a few years ago.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Anacybele

[King Marth 64]

15 hours ago, Florete said:

You think it's fake because there's too few characters? Are you joking?

We had a Smash direct in August that revealed 5 characters, 2 unique, and you think 7 characters, 5 unique, isn't enough to be believable?

No, I'm saying 7 only more reveals left before the game comes out doesn't feel like it's enough for the final roster, I never said we are might going to see 7 more reveals at the possible November Nintendo Direct. I totally think it be more than 7 reveals remaining at the December Direct something like around estimate 10 reveals remaining or a little bit higher. I still think we could see a few more newcomer defaults left since I definitely think Inkling, Ridley, Simon, King K. Rool, and Isabelle are possibly the default newcomers while all of the Echo Fighters are most likely unlockable fighters.

Still, I think Dixie Kong is might going to be a Semi-Echo Fighter like Isabelle than an Echo Fighter since she doesn't have a Jetpack and she have the Hair Attack. I totally think Funky Kong would most likely be a good candidate as an Echo Fighter of Donkey Kong since the only minor difference that Donkey Kong lacks is his surf board.

Edited October 26, 2018 by King Marth 64

[Anomalocaris]

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

No, I'm saying 7 only more reveals left before the game comes out doesn't feel like it's enough for the final roster, I never said we are might going to see 7 more reveals at the possible November Nintendo Direct. I totally think it be more than 7 reveals remaining at the December Direct something like around estimate 10 reveals remaining or a little bit higher. I still think we could see a few more newcomer defaults left since I definitely think Inkling, Ridley, Simon, King K. Rool, and Isabelle are possibly the default newcomers while all of the Echo Fighters are most likely unlockable fighters.

Still, I think Dixie Kong is might going to be a Semi-Echo Fighter like Isabelle than an Echo Fighter since she doesn't have a Jetpack and she have the Hair Attack. I totally think Funky Kong would most likely be a good candidate as an Echo Fighter of Donkey Kong since the only minor difference that Donkey Kong lacks is his surf board.

We already know that the starting roster is only the original 8 (or original 12, it was vague), and everybody else is unlockable.

[Anacybele]

2 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

Still, I think Dixie Kong is might going to be a Semi-Echo Fighter like Isabelle than an Echo Fighter since she doesn't have a Jetpack and she have the Hair Attack.

Exactly why I said Dixie should be Luigified rather than a straight up echo of Diddy. She has her ponytail and her lack of a tail and jetpack to set her apart from him. Diddy uses his tail in some attacks and Dixie does not have one. And her ponytail is definitely her selling point, I'd have her use it in as many basic attacks as possible, while she shares a couple B moves with Diddy, namely the popgun move since she has her own kind of popgun, just with a different property, like how Mario and Luigi's fireballs are affected by gravity differently, and I suppose the banana peels. The jetpack would have to be something else, of course.

[Randoman]

I just realized something: remember the 108 stages leak from CoroCoro a while back? We currently have 103 stages revealed, right? Based on the new characters/universes the recent "Grinch leak" has revealed, I think we can deduce the universes that the remaining 5 stages come from.

Isaac - Golden Sun Stage

Mach Rider - Mach Rider Stage

Chorus Kids - Rhythm Heaven Stage

Banjo-Kazooie - Banjo-Kazooie Stage

Geno - Super Mario RPG Stage

Ken and Shadow very likely won't get their own stages, due to their universes already being represented with stages and them being Echo Fighters.

I know getting a Super Mario RPG stage is somewhat of a stretch, even if Geno is actually in. But with Geno technically being 3rd party and him being the property of Square Enix, I could see them giving Geno his own stage for those reasons.

What do you guys think of this theory?

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Armagon said:

Challenge accepted

 

Ok but on a more serious note, i'm actually struggling to think of a more iconic elderly video game character than Cranky Kong.

 

Professor Oak? Is he considered old enough? He has a grandson.

11 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I never said K Rool shouldn't be in. I'm saying Dixie should be there with him, and yet she's not for some reason. Makes no sense to me.

I know, I was giving you one alternative reason to popularity as to why the developers chose him and not Dixie. All things added up, the size, the blunderbuss, the helicopter, K Rool had a lot going for him in terms of interesting moveset potential. While Dixie just has her hair (not that it's impossible to make a good and interesting moveset for Dixie with that alone). Popularity is no doubt important, but I think a lot of people overlook variety of movesetwise as a factor for characters getting in. Wii Fit Trainer became a character after all, and I don't think people even considered her a character until her appearance in Smash. Same with Robin getting in before Chrom due to having more to work with in terms of moveset.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Jotari