Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Johann said:

I think Nintendo's brand and strategy has been thoroughly established to be as inclusive as they can, and to change its direction like that would throw years of marketing, analysis, and R&D. They'd garner much more criticism if they straight up abandoned that.

OoT's Gerudo were pretty shallowly designed, yeah, but I dunno if they'd abandon the idea rather than revise it as they have. BotW is the first time we've actually seen a Sheikah community, with very little to go on from previous games, and that turned out good, so who's to say that they would have goofed it with Gerudo if 2017 was their first outing?

Oh jeez pack it up everybody, this guy isn't having fun. How dare we want our games to be better, excuse us for giving a shit that racism is a thing

Sure. Nintendo's the paragon of racial inclusion in their games. That's why we have all of one black guy on the Super Smash Bros. roster. And that's Ganondorf, a villain. Nintendo plays things coy, they always have. Their inclusive in so far as it makes them money, but they're not some radical company with a moral pejorative to spread diversity for the sake of humanity. Like I already said, they wouldn't proudly announce they were going that route, but cutting down their 5% of characters representing a (non European/Asian originated) foreign culture to 0% wouldn't be difficult. And it absolutely is in Nintendo's MO to completely abandon something if it causes controversy. I've already cited the Islamic content in Ocarina of Time. There's also the original design of jynx (which is waaay more racist than this Donkey Kong thing), the Game Corners in Pokemon, that one Porygon episode of Pokemon (would have been easy to tone down the lights and rerelease the episode, but they've abandoned it forever, and to my knowledge Porygon has never had any major role in the anime since, even though it was all Pikachu's fault) skinshipping in Fates (completely removed from western releases, for better or for worse) and probably the biggest example alongswide Porygon, the fact that to this day Super Mario Party 1 has never been rereleased because they got sued over it (people ripped their hands open rotating the control stick, the series continued but Nintendo completely abandoned that mechanic from all future games).

6 hours ago, Armagon said:

Man, you know what my favorite kind of Super Smash Bros discussion is? Whether or not certain depictions in the game is racist.

So here are my two cents: it doesn't matter.  Those Spirit Battles were made with references to the original characters and games in mind. Race was not a factor and never was.

There are far bigger things to complain about. If something as irrelevant as a Spirit Battle from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch genuianly offends you, then lock your doors and board your windows because the outside world is much crueler.

 

6 hours ago, Johann said:

Oh jeez pack it up everybody, this guy isn't having fun. How dare we want our games to be better, excuse us for giving a shit that racism is a thing

That is his opinion. Disagreeing with it's fine, but you should still respect it. Mocking doesn't really help. With all that being said, perhaps we should move this discussion to a dedicated thread.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Jotari

[Water Mage]

I think the racism discussion is getting us a little off-topic, so how about we drop it? (Not that I think it isn’t a problem, I do think using Donkey and Diddy for those fights are a problem and they should change it in a patch)

6 hours ago, Jedi said:

Japanese opinion on character placement 

I’m no competitive expert, but why Pichu is above Pikachu? And why the Pokemon Trainer so low? Ever other tier list I’ve seen places him rather high.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Water Mage

[The DanMan]

11 hours ago, Johann said:

Twintelle is easily far more popular than the boring Spring Man

Because of her butt.

Seriously, the only reason she seems to be popular is because of "thicc" jokes.

Female characters always end up disproportionately popular compared to the male ones in larger casts; FEH's CYL polls show that quite well, with the female side always having higher average votes per spot than the male side. Heck, Celica being more popular than Alm despite not being the main protagonist and basically irrelevant to the overall plot (while acting idiotic and putting herself in a damsel in distress position) is a perfect example.

1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

 

I’m no competitive expert, but why Pichu is above Pikachu? And why the Pokemon Trainer so low? Ever other tier list I’ve seen places him rather high.

Pichu actually does more damage than Pikachu; I'd imagine that plays a large part in it.

Of course, something to keep in mind is that tier lists are always partially usage lists; Pokemon Trainer probably hasn't received much usage in Japan, and thus is rated lower because of it.

Edited December 27, 2018 by The DanMan

[Michelaar]

8 hours ago, Jedi said:

Japanese opinion on character placement 

What does Ness have that makes him so much better than Lucas?

[Armagon]

10 hours ago, Johann said:

For someone who doesn't care, you're writing up an awful lot about how everyone who's bothered by it

Nah, that second post was just me responding to you. If you hadn't responded to me, i wouldn't have written a big paragraph. I'm gonna put the rest in a spoiler to save space.

10 hours ago, Johann said:

and coming up with "what's next" slippery slope scenarios as if everything is turning to shit.

Spoiler

I mean, this was the year where everyone gets offended by everything. It's pretty easy to make predictions of what can come next. After all, 2018 was the year was when some TV host got offended at the box art of Red Dead 2 because all of the characters on it where white. My favorite one though doesn't even have to do with gaming but sports. A Nascar driver lost his sponsership because his dad said a racial slur 10 years before the guy was even born. Yes, saying a racial slur is bad, no, the son shouldn't have been punished for the sins of his father.

And these are just the ones off the top of my head. I don't make these "what if scenarios" as if everything is going to shit. I make them because it's gotten to a point where it's so predictable.

10 hours ago, Johann said:

Just because you don't give a shit about what other people have to deal with doesn't mean it's not an issue. Do you not know that monkey, ape, etc are used as racial slurs against black people? Do you not know that a lot of people hold the racist view that black people are usually criminals? Can you take a second to consider that maybe that this matters to people because this is shit they have to deal with on a daily basis?

Spoiler

But is it actually affecting you? Or are you being upset because others might find it upsetting? I know black people have it tough but getting upset over something miniscule like this just comes off as petty. 

At worst, the pairings of these Spirit Battles are unfortunate coincidences. These characters are all fictional, it shouldn't be bothering anyone that much.

I'm not gonna argue with you further.

9 hours ago, a bear said:

DK as Mr. Sandman is still a really weak reference. They have no moves in common and the closest thing DK has to Sandman is his bonus boss appearance in the Wii game.

That's probably why.

9 hours ago, a bear said:

Haven't played Street Fighter since the 90's but I'm sure Captain Falcon or Bayonetta would've fit Dee Jay way better as well.

From what i hear, Diddy's side special is very similar to one of Dee Jay's moves and the Spirit Battle even states that "the enemy loves to use side specials".

No arguments here, just trying to give explanations as to why these Spirit Battles are the way they are.

This is really off-topic though.

8 hours ago, Jedi said:

Japanese opinion on character placement 

I know the meta is only a few weeks old but it's really nice to see Shulk in S-tier and Zelda in A-tier.

Also pretty interesting that everyone seems to agree that Kirby and Mac are bottom tier.

1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

I’m no competitive expert, but why Pichu is above Pikachu?

 

45 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

Pichu actually does more damage than Pikachu; I'd imagine that plays a large part in it.

That and Pichu is also smaller so he's harder to hit. The self-damaging aspect is also actually beneficial because Pichu builds rage with almost every attack.

4 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

What does Ness have that makes him so much better than Lucas?

Better PSI Magnet, very stupid back throw, PK Thunder is more powerful.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by Armagon

[Michelaar]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Better PSI Magnet, very stupid back throw, PK Thunder is more powerful.

 

Oooh, I see! By the way I would like to mention that I am so bad at recovering with them like jeez.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I'm surprised that the tierlist only goes down to D so far.
Brawl had like the half of characters and this list went to H iirc.

[Armagon]

8 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

 By the way I would like to mention that I am so bad at recovering with them like jeez.

Haha, i think we all are. The PSI kids' recovery is pretty bad. All you have to do is just interrupt the PK Thunder before it hits them.

Although actually, Lucas is better in that regard. He has a tether grab so he doesn't need PK Thunder. In addition, PK Thunder goes through opponents, as opposed to stopping after hitting once so it's harder to interrupt it by simply jumping into it. You can still reflect and absorb it though, which kills the Lucas.

1 minute ago, Necrofantasia said:

I'm surprised that the tierlist only goes down to D so far.
Brawl had like the half of characters and this list went to H iirc.

Brawl was also a lot less balanced than Ultimate is.

[Etrurian emperor]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Sure. Nintendo's the paragon of racial inclusion in their games. That's why we have all of one black guy on the Super Smash Bros. roster. And that's Ganondorf, a villain. Nintendo plays things coy, they always have.

Isn't Ganondorf more Green than black? And if he wasn't he'd probably more resemble a man from the middle East than Africa. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

20 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Isn't Ganondorf more Green than black? And if he wasn't he'd probably more resemble a man from the middle East than Africa. 

If anything, I'd say that Ganondorf most strongly resembles a person from India, as do the Gerudo in general.

[Lau]

So I got Ultimate for Christmas, and I have to say...it feels a lot better than Smash 4. I've just been playing through all the Classic Modes to unlock the characters (about 5 left I think), and the gameplay is just so smooth. Marth is fantastic, and Young Link, holy crap.

I can't wait to start the adventure mode. My only complaint so far is that there seems to be no way to watch the newcomer trailers. They aren't in 'Movies', is this not a thing anymore?

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Brawl was also a lot less balanced than Ultimate is.

Can't really judge about that.

The only main gameplay difference I noticed is the recovery help since Smash 4, so heavy characters with an unsafe recovery like Zelda or PK thunder duo got a buff there.

Speaking of balance: Why is Chrom stronger and even faster than Marth / Lucina? Same goes for Bowser over Mario.

 

Regardless I expect to see more categories since the game is still young. The characters must be developed further.

[Jedi]

Something to also note is that the Japanese usually have way different opinions than the West in terms of characters and balance.

Which is why you see stuff like K Rool and stuff much lower than in the west.

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Necrofantasia said:

Can't really judge about that.

No like, Brawl was objectievly less balanced than Ultimate. Brawl's meta was entierly dependent on how well do you do against Meta Knight.

1 hour ago, Necrofantasia said:

Why is Chrom stronger and even faster than Marth / Lucina?

Because Chrom is a Roy Echo.

 

1 hour ago, Necrofantasia said:

Same goes for Bowser over Mario.

Because he's a heavyweight and Bowser got a big speed boost in Smash 4.

 

 

1 hour ago, Necrofantasia said:

The only main gameplay difference I noticed is the recovery help since Smash 4, so heavy characters with an unsafe recovery like Zelda

But...Zelda isn't a heavy though. Neither are the PK Kids but Zelda's recovery has always been good.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Armagon

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Isn't Ganondorf more Green than black? And if he wasn't he'd probably more resemble a man from the middle East than Africa. 

People say green, but I just don't really see it, except maybe the unused Oracle design. Of course people also say Asians are yellow skinned which they don't even seem vaguely like to me. The game's artstyle makes a difference too, I think he's much darker in Twilight Princess render. In any regard, whether it's more African, Middle Eastern or Indian, Ganondorf's desert origins make it clear he is some variation of dark skinned. It doesn't necessarily have to parallel with any real world location as those locations don't exist in Hyrule. I'd personally lean on Arabian as that's what the Gerudo lean more towards for me, but I can definitely see why someone would say Indian.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

These challenges say I need to play as 30 different characters online. That's a problem...there isn't 30 different varieties of mii fighter for me to play as. 

It seems the developers are just as obsessed with the mii fighters as I am. As we just got confirmation of more costumes as DLC

[Shadow Mir]

Is it just me, or do some of the more brutal Spirit battles involve Zelda? Case in point: Great Fairy. With how much bullshit the game stacks against you, it might as well be a 4-star (Giant, fast Final Smash, healing when badly damaged, and stronger specials). And all this on a character with an instant KO Final Smash. Yuri Kozukata was also awful. If assist trophies were that much of a problem, I would think to remove them... but she can't be defeated, meaning you have to deal with her throughout. And once again, there's that instant KO Final Smash in case you fail to KO Zelda before it's ready, which might happen, what with this being on Luigi's Mansion...

Edited December 28, 2018 by Shadow Mir

[Xenomata]

I remember hearing somewhere that Olimar with high Attack spirits nearly trivializes most any Spirit Battle... and it's true. One Aerial attack from a Red Pikmin can do over 100% damage to a low level spirit, and even some Legendary Spirit Battles can be completed in a few aerial attacks if careful, of course depending on which Spirit Battle it is. And for Spirit Battles in groups, such as a number of Mega Man spirits, the Yellow Pikmin can eliminate a number of foes at once if they all walk into the attack.

I also remember the example given was Akuma, and... yeah, Akuma is pretty broken in that regard.

[Johann]

On 12/27/2018 at 5:31 AM, Jotari said:

Sure. Nintendo's the paragon of racial inclusion in their games. That's why we have all of one black guy on the Super Smash Bros. roster. And that's Ganondorf, a villain. Nintendo plays things coy, they always have. Their inclusive in so far as it makes them money, but they're not some radical company with a moral pejorative to spread diversity for the sake of humanity. Like I already said, they wouldn't proudly announce they were going that route, but cutting down their 5% of characters representing a (non European/Asian originated) foreign culture to 0% wouldn't be difficult. And it absolutely is in Nintendo's MO to completely abandon something if it causes controversy. I've already cited the Islamic content in Ocarina of Time. There's also the original design of jynx (which is waaay more racist than this Donkey Kong thing), the Game Corners in Pokemon, that one Porygon episode of Pokemon (would have been easy to tone down the lights and rerelease the episode, but they've abandoned it forever, and to my knowledge Porygon has never had any major role in the anime since, even though it was all Pikachu's fault) skinshipping in Fates (completely removed from western releases, for better or for worse) and probably the biggest example alongswide Porygon, the fact that to this day Super Mario Party 1 has never been rereleased because they got sued over it (people ripped their hands open rotating the control stick, the series continued but Nintendo completely abandoned that mechanic from all future games).

That is his opinion. Disagreeing with it's fine, but you should still respect it. Mocking doesn't really help. With all that being said, perhaps we should move this discussion to a dedicated thread.

I'm not gonna defend their bad choices in the past, but I still maintain that the direction going forward is showing signs that they're becoming more inclusive.

As for his response, I have no respect for any attempt to downplay racism (though I don't mean to imply that he's racist)

On 12/27/2018 at 9:29 AM, The DanMan said:

Because of her butt.

Seriously, the only reason she seems to be popular is because of "thicc" jokes.

Female characters always end up disproportionately popular compared to the male ones in larger casts; FEH's CYL polls show that quite well, with the female side always having higher average votes per spot than the male side. Heck, Celica being more popular than Alm despite not being the main protagonist and basically irrelevant to the overall plot (while acting idiotic and putting herself in a damsel in distress position) is a perfect example.

I don't doubt that a large number of Twintelle fans are fans for that reason, but I think that's a reductive notion based on the memes. There are lots of things people can appreciate about her; she has a great aesthetic, she's probably fun to play as, and yes, her being a really positive black female character is winning over a lot of people.

On 12/27/2018 at 10:13 AM, Armagon said:

Nah, that second post was just me responding to you. If you hadn't responded to me, i wouldn't have written a big paragraph. I'm gonna put the rest in a spoiler to save space.

  Hide contents

I mean, this was the year where everyone gets offended by everything. It's pretty easy to make predictions of what can come next. After all, 2018 was the year was when some TV host got offended at the box art of Red Dead 2 because all of the characters on it where white. My favorite one though doesn't even have to do with gaming but sports. A Nascar driver lost his sponsership because his dad said a racial slur 10 years before the guy was even born. Yes, saying a racial slur is bad, no, the son shouldn't have been punished for the sins of his father.

And these are just the ones off the top of my head. I don't make these "what if scenarios" as if everything is going to shit. I make them because it's gotten to a point where it's so predictable.

  Hide contents

But is it actually affecting you? Or are you being upset because others might find it upsetting? I know black people have it tough but getting upset over something miniscule like this just comes off as petty. 

At worst, the pairings of these Spirit Battles are unfortunate coincidences. These characters are all fictional, it shouldn't be bothering anyone that much.

I'm not gonna argue with you further.

This response is so riddled with pathetic talking points that I'm glad you're not going to keep going with this. Nobody is demanding Sakurai be blacklisted or calling for a boycott of Nintendo games, just a fix to these Spirit battles.

[Fabulously Olivier]

There are actual examples of potential blatant racism in Nintendo's history (hell, just look at Punch Out, where stereotypes of all sorts are played for laughs), but calling Nintendo racist because Ganondorf is "evil because he's black" doesn't even warrant a response, in large part because he isn't black, and his race has nothing to do with his alignment (as is well demonstrated when we see Gerudo on our side in the proper Zelda games). 

[Anacybele]

Yikes...

https://nintendosoup.com/ridley-can-instantly-kill-sonic-in-this-super-smash-bros-ultimate-glitch/

[Armagon]

12 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yikes...

https://nintendosoup.com/ridley-can-instantly-kill-sonic-in-this-super-smash-bros-ultimate-glitch/

That only happens on Omega froms of stages with no Z-axis.....which no one really plays on to begin with (except maybe Duck Hunt).

Still though, that's an inevitable patch.

[NinjaMonkey]

On ‎27‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:31 AM, Jotari said:

Sure. Nintendo's the paragon of racial inclusion in their games. That's why we have all of one black guy on the Super Smash Bros. roster. And that's Ganondorf, a villain. 

Are you colour blind or something? Is Mr. Game & Watch not black?

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by NinjaMonkey

[Anacybele]

17 minutes ago, Armagon said:

That only happens on Omega froms of stages with no Z-axis.....which no one really plays on to begin with (except maybe Duck Hunt).

Still though, that's an inevitable patch.

I'm sure SOME people do though. I mean, someone had to in order to discover the glitch in the first place, after all. So yeah, inevitable patch. xP

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Yikes...

https://nintendosoup.com/ridley-can-instantly-kill-sonic-in-this-super-smash-bros-ultimate-glitch/

Speaking of glitches, were the two Isabelle glitches patched out?