Luis Liberato

Which FE Characters would you want in the new Smash

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2 hours ago, Etheus said:

Implying that people actually care more about Celica - one of two lords in a game which had mediocre sales, which was a remake of one of the weakest games in the franchise. That's absurd.

Fine then. If not Minerva, we could have Camilla and her twins. The casuals would certainly care about that.

Are you implying Celica isn't popular? She came second place in the newest Fire Emblem Heroes poll.

Edited by Jotari

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10 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Metroid has two characters, both of which are Samus. TWO. I'll grant that this one comes down to Metroid having so few viable canon characters. They could potentially add Sylux since his importance is increasing and he makes more plausible sense than Ridley as a playable character.

Look, I love Metroid, but given the size of the franchise and the cast it has, its representation is justified. "Increasing" importance for Sylux is debatable. If Sylux has a notable role in Metroid Prime 4, though, I could see him getting in.

11 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Zelda has 5 characters, for one of Nintendo's most popular and enduring franchises.

Zelda has the characters it needs. Yeah, FE has more than Zelda on the roster, but consider that every FE fighter currently is either a protagonist or a plot-central character, whereas Zelda has the protagonist, the villain, and a plot-central character. Zelda is better represented in other ways, like stages and items, where Fire Emblem is comparatively lacking.

I'm not saying another Zelda rep couldn't or shouldn't get in, but it's a different kind of series and that comes with a different kind of representation.

13 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Pokemon has a whopping 6 characters, out of well over 700 potential Pokemon to choose from. Even if we consider that they are all unique movesets, that's the same quantity that Fire Emblem is taking up right now. Seems pretty under-represented to me, considering the fanbase of Pokemon could essentially populate another planet.

That is not underrepresented. If you want to argue that FE is over represented, fine, but Pokemon is not underrepresented in any part of the game. 6 unique fighters (and 2 more that were in Brawl), multiple stages, and the most complex item in the game are dedicated to this one franchise. "Harebrained" doesn't even begin to describe the notion of calling Pokemon underrepresented.

All of this and yet you don't mention the franchise that actually is underrepresented: Donkey Kong.

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6 minutes ago, Florete said:

Look, I love Metroid, but given the size of the franchise and the cast it has, its representation is justified. "Increasing" importance for Sylux is debatable. If Sylux has a notable role in Metroid Prime 4, though, I could see him getting in.

Zelda has the characters it needs. Yeah, FE has more than Zelda on the roster, but consider that every FE fighter currently is either a protagonist or a plot-central character, whereas Zelda has the protagonist, the villain, and a plot-central character. Zelda is better represented in other ways, like stages and items, where Fire Emblem is comparatively lacking.

I'm not saying another Zelda rep couldn't or shouldn't get in, but it's a different kind of series and that comes with a different kind of representation.

That is not underrepresented. If you want to argue that FE is over represented, fine, but Pokemon is not underrepresented in any part of the game. 6 unique fighters (and 2 more that were in Brawl), multiple stages, and the most complex item in the game are dedicated to this one franchise. "Harebrained" doesn't even begin to describe the notion of calling Pokemon underrepresented.

All of this and yet you don't mention the franchise that actually is underrepresented: Donkey Kong.

I'm not really counting items or stages in this. It's part of it, but ultimately, characters are the most important factor in series representation. They are they lifeblood of a fighting game. That said Fire Emblem could certainly use more stage representation, not to mention actually having some boss representation for once, if Sakurai decides to re-add a story mode.

Also, I didn't mention Donkey Kong because I can't even begin to care about Donkey Kong. I mean, it would be great if they would add K. Rool, but aside from that, who do we really need?

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27 minutes ago, Etheus said:

 

Harebrained? No, no, no. I'm being completely real.

(As of Smash 4) 

Metroid has two characters, both of which are Samus. TWO. I'll grant that this one comes down to Metroid having so few viable canon characters. They could potentially add Sylux since his importance is increasing and he makes more plausible sense than Ridley as a playable character.

 

Zelda has 5 characters, for one of Nintendo's most popular and enduring franchises. Now consider that two of those were split from a single character from Melee/Brawl. One of those is a semi-clone of Link. And then we have Ganondorf, who is a less viable clone of Captain Falcon for some reason unknown to human minds. So yes, Zelda is incredibly under-represented. This is a fact. Even if we make the argument that Zelda is lacking in quantity of characters, we're still missing Midna, Zant, Ghirahim, Tingle (please no), Impa, Vaati, Fi, and others as potential characters. Plus the quite frankly mandatory decloning of Ganondorf. Now, we even have the champions of Breath of the Wild as popular candidates for addition, so there is really no excuse for the franchise to not considerably increase its representation in Smash 5. 

 

Pokemon has a whopping 6 characters, out of well over 700 potential Pokemon to choose from. Even if we consider that they are all unique movesets, that's the same quantity that Fire Emblem is taking up right now. Seems pretty under-represented to me, considering the fanbase of Pokemon could essentially populate another planet.

Are you TRYING to make me not take you seriously? If so, then you're doing an excellent job at it.

I dunno who Sylux is, and I still think there isn't much else whom they could use aside from Ridley.

Once again, Zelda has the characters it needs. Not a one of the characters you mentioned screams "necessary addition", if you ask me.

Yeah, let's forget the part where it had two more in Brawl. And if you think 6 is underrepresented, your notion of "being real" must be one that fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.

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2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I'm not really counting items or stages in this. It's part of it, but ultimately, characters are the most important factor in series representation. They are they lifeblood of a fighting game.

I don't exactly disagree with this, but Smash isn't a typical fighting game. Most people don't play under competitive rulesets, so items and stages are still pretty visible.

5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Also, I didn't mention Donkey Kong because I can't even begin to care about Donkey Kong. I mean, it would be great if they would add K. Rool, but aside from that, who do we really need?

Dixie Kong and K. Rool would round out the DK cast quite nicely imo.

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8 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Are you TRYING to make me not take you seriously? If so, then you're doing an excellent job at it.

I dunno who Sylux is, and I still think there isn't much else whom they could use aside from Ridley.

Once again, Zelda has the characters it needs. Not a one of the characters you mentioned screams "necessary addition", if you ask me.

Yeah, let's forget the part where it had two more in Brawl. And if you think 6 is underrepresented, your notion of "being real" must be one that fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.

 

The feeling is completely mutual, now that you've resorted to personal insults.

Calls me an idiot and can't be inclined to google Sylux. He's Samus's rival starting in Metroid Prime Hunters. I'm not even a Metroid fan and I'm aware of that.

Representation is relative. Unpopular series deserve essential representation. Popular ones deserve to go somewhat beyond. As someone who loves Fire Emblem and considers Zelda to be overrated, it is beyond baffling to listen to you simultaneously call major villains and popular side characters from the Zelda series unnecessary while arguing that FE needs more representation. And I'm the one who is a dunce? Fuck that right off.

Edited by Etheus

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17 minutes ago, Etheus said:

 

The feeling is completely mutual, now that you've resorted to personal insults. 

Calls me an idiot and can't be inclined to google Sylux. He's Samus's rival starting in Metroid Prime Hunters. I'm not even a Metroid fan and I'm aware of that.

Representation is relative. Unpopular series deserve essential representation. Popular ones deserve to go somewhat beyond. As someone who loves Fire Emblem and considers Zelda to be overrated, it is beyond baffling to listen to you simultaneously call major villains and popular side characters from the Zelda series unnecessary while arguing that FE needs more representation. And I'm the one who is a dunce? Fuck that right off.

I was insulting your idea, not you directly. And I still think your idea needs work. Good job reinforcing my feelings towards you, btw.

The only Metroid game I played was Prime 2, which was before that one. I'm not saying he can't get in, but it depends on how important he is in Prime 4.

If representation is relative, then I think Pokémon is fine as is. If anything, I would take issue with the fact that most of the Pokémon we got in Smash are from Gen 1 (exceptions being Pichu, Lucario, and Greninja) before calling Pokémon underrepresented. Just how many Pokémon reps must we have before you're satisfied?!

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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13 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I was insulting your idea, not you directly. And I still think your idea needs work. Good job reinforcing my feelings towards you, btw.

The only Metroid game I played was Prime 2, which was before that one.

If representation is relative, then I think Pokémon is fine as is. If anything, I would take issue with the fact that most of the Pokémon we got in Smash are from Gen 1 before calling Pokémon underrepresented.

Again. The feeling is completely mutual. If you act like an ass, you deservedly get treated in kind. Thanks.

And with that admission, in what way are you qualified to comment? A little research into potential characters is something of a prerequisite. One does not need to be familiar with something first hand. Google is your friend. Now, I apologize for my tone, but the point stands.

Fine. We'll move off Pokemon since representation for a franchise with such an absurd roster size, many iconic characters, and next to 0 story is going to be subjective at best. We are completely agreed on their representation needing to cover more generations.

Edited by Etheus

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8 hours ago, Etheus said:

Established Movesets

Marth/Roy/Lyn as alternate costumes of the Marth/Lord moveset rather than separate clones. If it works for Bowser Jr., it would work for them.

Ike/Alm/Chrom/Lucina as alternate costumes of the Ike/Hero moveset.

Robin/Celica as alternate costumes of Robin/Spellsword moveset.

Corrin

 

New Movesets

FE Switch protagonist

Azura

Anna/Takumi (Archer Moveset)

I think this is the perfect way to represent fire emblem, because of the cyclic nature of the games casts you have a lot of important characters who are almost identical to each other in fighting styles and the like so bunching the characters into categories and making them costumes for that category is a good way to give all of Fire emblem proper representation while not bloating the roster with 4 variations of Marth who have one or two differences. 

I would argue that Lucina should go under the lord moveset, and other characters could be added to a spellcaster group, also eriphram should be included with Azura in the lance moveset and I would want to see an axe moveset even if it is only hector 

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20 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

I think this is the perfect way to represent fire emblem, because of the cyclic nature of the games casts you have a lot of important characters who are almost identical to each other in fighting styles and the like so bunching the characters into categories and making them costumes for that category is a good way to give all of Fire emblem proper representation while not bloating the roster with 4 variations of Marth who have one or two differences. 

I would argue that Lucina should go under the lord moveset, and other characters could be added to a spellcaster group, also eriphram should be included with Azura in the lance moveset and I would want to see an axe moveset even if it is only hector 

If Azura was to be added into the game, she'd have a very distinct fighting style that combines the lance with her dancing animations...Imaging Ephraim doing that it is rather ridiculous in a very amuzing way. 

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6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If Azura was to be added into the game, she'd have a very distinct fighting style that combines the lance with her dancing animations...Imaging Ephraim doing that it is rather ridiculous in a very amuzing way. 

Which was why I separated her initially. 

 

I mean, FE Warriors could have made her an Oboro clone and it would have worked. But Azura is far more than just a lancer. 

(And now I want to see Ephraim do the Ocean's Grey Waves dance.)

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If they where to add Celica or Alm as unique characters I kinda hope they would ice climbers it and have the pair fight side by side (you could also make Chrom and Robin an alt costume), I also think a Pokemon trainer style Fe character (like the blazing blade lords) would be pretty cool 

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3 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

If they where to add Celica or Alm as unique characters I kinda hope they would ice climbers it and have the pair fight side by side (you could also make Chrom and Robin an alt costume), I also think a Pokemon trainer style Fe character (like the blazing blade lords) would be pretty cool 

That's a brilliant idea. Not turning Robin/Chrom into a costume, mind you, but rather having an Alm/Celica tag team. I hadn't even considered that. 

They would just need to make sure that no Ice Climbers style chain grab exists.

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10 hours ago, Etheus said:

Implying that people actually care more about Celica - one of two lords in a game which had mediocre sales, which was a remake of one of the weakest games in the franchise. That's absurd.

Fine then. If not Minerva, we could have Camilla and her twins. The casuals would certainly care about that.

Uh, Celica's popular, if I'm not mistaken, given her votes in a recent Heroes poll. To add, sales numbers are not a good reason to downplay the characters or game (see Ike), and Gaiden being the "weakest game" sounds more of a trivial opinion that not everyone necessarily agrees with, not to mention irrelevant to Celica's popularity now.

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I'm sure I'm not the only person to suggest this, but what if they snuck in dozens of FE characters through the Bowser, Jr. clause, where a single fighter slot is occupied by multiple characters via alternate costumes?

  • Fighter - Barst, Boyd, Vaike, Arthur, Charlotte, Rinkah
  • Mercenary - Ogma, Laslow, Selena
  • Myrmidon - Navarre, Ayra, Lon'qu, Ryoma, Hana
  • Knight - Draug, Sheena, Gwendolyn, Gatrie, Kellam, Effie, Benny
  • Mage - Linde, Soren, Ricken, Miriel, Orochi
  • Dark Mage - Tharja, Odin Dark

And how about Anna? She's the series' most recurring character, and has potential for a composite moveset.

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On 3/14/2018 at 4:40 PM, Etheus said:

Again. The feeling is completely mutual. If you act like an ass, you deservedly get treated in kind. Thanks.

And with that admission, in what way are you qualified to comment? A little research into potential characters is something of a prerequisite. One does not need to be familiar with something first hand. Google is your friend. Now, I apologize for my tone, but the point stands.

Fine. We'll move off Pokemon since representation for a franchise with such an absurd roster size, many iconic characters, and next to 0 story is going to be subjective at best. We are completely agreed on their representation needing to cover more generations.

Yeah, I guess we both got a little too worked up there. Sorry.

Having thought about it, I do agree Metroid is underrepresented, though as far as I know, I would chalk that up to Metroid not being the most character-driven series out there.

That's the main thing that bugs me about the Pokémon reps we've gotten - out of 9 over the course of Smash, 6 of them have been first generation Pokémon (the exceptions were Pichu, which was a Pikachu clone, Lucario, and Greninja). And now we have 800+ Pokémon as of the most recent games. Surely there's a lot of room to start using mons from other generations (I will admit, though, some Pokémon might not be feasible to make playable). I'd like so see something like Blaziken or Infernape.

Going back to FE, I just feel that whatever characters we get, they'll most likely be either protagonists or plot-relevant characters, considering those sum up everyone we got thus far. And even then, I'm hesitant to think anyone from an older game (besides Marth, Roy, and Ike) has any semi-realistic shot of getting in.

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Yeah, I guess we both got a little too worked up there. Sorry.

Having thought about it, I do agree Metroid is underrepresented, though as far as I know, I would chalk that up to Metroid not being the most character-driven series out there.

That's the main thing that bugs me about the Pokémon reps we've gotten - out of 9 over the course of Smash, 6 of them have been first generation Pokémon (the exceptions were Pichu, which was a Pikachu clone, Lucario, and Greninja). And now we have 800+ Pokémon as of the most recent games. Surely there's a lot of room to start using mons from other generations (I will admit, though, some Pokémon might not be feasible to make playable). I'd like so see something like Blaziken or Infernape.

Going back to FE, I just feel that whatever characters we get, they'll most likely be either protagonists or plot-relevant characters, considering those sum up everyone we got thus far. And even then, I'm hesitant to think anyone from an older game (besides Marth, Roy, and Ike) has any semi-realistic shot of getting in.

As did I. My apologies.

 

Decidueye seems like a fan favorite for a new generation Pokemon. It's certainly my favorite starter since Gen 3 (the last generation I actually enjoyed before I grew out of the franchise). We could use a grass type, and its arrow mechanics could make it play differently from existing Pokemon. 

 

Character representation is a tricky topic. Recent relevance is key, but we also get plenty of historical characters (like ROB, Ice Climbers, and G&W) who aren't relevant to modern Nintendo but do celebrate tradition. Hell, one could argue that Captain Falcon and other characters from dead franchises are only here for tradition's sake. Nintendo is clearly open to representing the past, even if they are prioritizing the future.

 

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Donkey Kong also needs Assist Trophy; I don't understand how this franchise lacks Rambi as an AT.

Roster-wise I only wish with all my heart to see Micaiah in Smash

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1 hour ago, Troykv said:

Donkey Kong also needs Assist Trophy; I don't understand how this franchise lacks Rambi as an AT.

Rambi should get his own item: the Rambi Crate. The player who busts it open gets to ride Rambi for a short while.

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3 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Rambi should get his own item: the Rambi Crate. The player who busts it open gets to ride Rambi for a short while.

Oh yeah, that would be very cool

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