lucina

[eclipse]

8 minutes ago, LucinaRobin said:

Okay...

So you didn't lock this now. Right?

 

 

Nope.  Not yet.

Numerically speaking, the difference between Marth and Lucina is the tipper mechanic.  So on movesets and whatnot, they're similar.  Whether Lucina actually goes away remains to be seen.  The game was just announced, so the best you can do is wait.

[LucinaRobin]

7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Nope.  Not yet.

Numerically speaking, the difference between Marth and Lucina is the tipper mechanic.  So on movesets and whatnot, they're similar.  Whether Lucina actually goes away remains to be seen.  The game was just announced, so the best you can do is wait.

Okay.

I meant "similar" isn't "same".

I'm waiting for official announcement.

[ZeManaphy]

On 3/9/2018 at 6:58 AM, Anacybele said:

Well, my honest opinion is that despite how popular she is, if she's going to just be a Marth clone, she should go. She's another sword character who doesn't really bring anything unique. And people complain too much about how many reps this series gets. I'm thinking the FE Switch lord will get into promote that game, and that would be a LOT of FE characters if Marth, Ike, Robin, Lucina, and Corrin all stayed too. Corrin I can see staying because she's a bit more unique in the fact that she has her dragon thing as well as a sword, but not Lucina.

And imo, Ike, Marth, and Robin are the only ones I feel are 100% staying.

I agree. She doesn't have enough to distinguish her from other fighters. Corrin and Robin both have projectiles, in addition to their sword techniques, which makes them better candidates for swords. Sakurai himself said that Chrom was cut for him being too "similar. "In my opinion, clone characters shouldn't be actually clones. They should share simlar mechanics, but have enough differences to make them separate to the point to be can't be tiered.

[Zangetsu]

She better not be a clone, getting real tired of Lucina getting the short end of the stick whenever she's in a crossover.

 

InSyst seems to be the only one that treats her right in terms of designs.

[HK Motendra]

59 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

She better not be a clone, getting real tired of Lucina getting the short end of the stick whenever she's in a crossover.

Could you explain this? While I cannot account for PXZ or Codename Steam, I've never seen anything of the sort that was unwarranted

[LucinaRobin]

4 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

I agree. She doesn't have enough to distinguish her from other fighters. Corrin and Robin both have projectiles, in addition to their sword techniques, which makes them better candidates for swords. Sakurai himself said that Chrom was cut for him being too "similar. "In my opinion, clone characters shouldn't be actually clones. They should share simlar mechanics, but have enough differences to make them separate to the point to be can't be tiered.

I think "similar" isn't "same".

One degree difference can make large difference to players....

 

[Zangetsu]

6 hours ago, Motendra said:

Could you explain this? While I cannot account for PXZ or Codename Steam, I've never seen anything of the sort that was unwarranted

I meant when it comes to Lucy being in a crossover game in general. I probably should just grateful that she makes the cut, but it always seems she has to be in someone's shadow whenever it happens.

PXZ 2: Ok, honestly this isn't nearly as bad as I think it is & to be frank I'm just nitpicking, but Lucina is paired up with Chrom. This is fine for the most part since obviously everyone knows the connection between father & daughter. And it's not like Dante being paired with Demitri came at the expense of either characters

Smash 4: The game that got me into the Fire Emblem franchise. At 1st, I thought it made sense for her to be Marth's clone, but after finally playing Awakening I thought it was stupid even though I thought still it make sense to some degree.  There was a lot of ways I can think of Lucina playing differently than Marth but Sakurai was decent enough to explain why clones were in the game & honestly this is Lucina's crossover debut so beggars can't be choosers I suppose.

 

Fire Emblem Warriors: This is the one that almost makes me cross my threshold, her being a clone of Chrom. Once again she has to be a clone of someone else & while Chrom makes a lot more sense than Marth it still irritating to no ends. Not help either is how they're other clones in the game as well. Yes, I understand that Lucina wasn't even supposed to be in the game to begin with & they added her in the game at last second therefore I should grateful but c'mon! Of all the games she appears in she stills need to be in someone's shadow?

 

Lucina is one of the most popular characters, but she always seems attach to either Marth or Chrom (mostly Chrom). I find ironic of all the game where she has own gameplay identity is Code Name Steam where she & Marth plays nothing alike whatsoever. I would say Echoes but I hated how the amiibo's were implemented in that game.

 

I'm also kinda getting irritated that they're insisting that Lucina's a bows woman. That's Lyn's & Alm's schtick & I'm fine if that's what it take for her to get out of Chrom's shadow but it shouldn't be at Lyn's & Alm's game style either.

[Dai]

To be fair to Warriors, most everyone's a clone in that game in some form, aren't they? Minerva to Camilla, all three Pegasus Knights, Celica to Marth, Ryoma and Owain (and probably the other eastern-style swordsmen).

[HK Motendra]

6 hours ago, LucinaRobin said:

I think "similar" isn't "same".

One degree difference can make large difference to players....

 

Well, yes, no one's denying that. However, said difference doesn't change the fact that it's the same exact moveset. The lack of a tipper won't change what the fundamental moveset can and can't do (or at least not by enough to matter). Here's a video that does a side-by-side explanation of the two, and their moveset:

32 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

I meant when it comes to Lucy being in a crossover game in general. I probably should just grateful that she makes the cut, but it always seems she has to be in someone's shadow whenever it happens.

PXZ 2: Ok, honestly this isn't nearly as bad as I think it is & to be frank I'm just nitpicking, but Lucina is paired up with Chrom. This is fine for the most part since obviously everyone knows the connection between father & daughter. And it's not like Dante being paired with Demitri came at the expense of either characters

Smash 4: The game that got me into the Fire Emblem franchise. At 1st, I thought it made sense for her to be Marth's clone, but after finally playing Awakening I thought it was stupid even though I thought still it make sense to some degree.  There was a lot of ways I can think of Lucina playing differently than Marth but Sakurai was decent enough to explain why clones were in the game & honestly this is Lucina's crossover debut so beggars can't be choosers I suppose.

Fire Emblem Warriors: This is the one that almost makes me cross my threshold, her being a clone of Chrom. Once again she has to be a clone of someone else & while Chrom makes a lot more sense than Marth it still irritating to no ends. Not help either is how they're other clones in the game as well. Yes, I understand that Lucina wasn't even supposed to be in the game to begin with & they added her in the game at last second therefore I should grateful but c'mon! Of all the games she appears in she stills need to be in someone's shadow?

Lucina is one of the most popular characters, but she always seems attach to either Marth or Chrom (mostly Chrom). I find ironic of all the game where she has own gameplay identity is Code Name Steam where she & Marth plays nothing alike whatsoever. I would say Echoes but I hated how the amiibo's were implemented in that game.

I'm also kinda getting irritated that they're insisting that Lucina's a bows woman. That's Lyn's & Alm's schtick & I'm fine if that's what it take for her to get out of Chrom's shadow but it shouldn't be at Lyn's & Alm's game style either.

Ah, I see now. Given the way she is designed and conceptualized, it's quite unfortunate, yet seemingly unavoidable. As for the bow thing, I think that's a reference to how they have the archer line as default reclass options. That Lucy gets bows in contrast to Chrom's lances though..... *shrug*

[Randoman]

Well, if the Switch Smash Bros. is a brand new game and not an enhanced port of Smash 4, Lucina feels like she'd be the first to be on the chopping block in terms of FE characters.

Lau pretty much covered my thoughts on the other 5 FE characters (technically my thoughts on Corrin and Roy staying are slightly different, but not enough for me to argue against them). With the amount of complaints Smash 4 got in regards to both clones and too many FE reps, I have a feeling Sakurai will cut down on FE reps if the Switch Smash Bros. is a brand new game. With Lucina contributing to both of those complaints, FE13 already having Robin as a playable Smash rep, and not having a unique moveset (or even a decloned moveset like Roy), I feel Lucina is a prime candidate for being cut. Lucina taking minimal time/resources to implement as a separate character slot won't justify FE having a whopping 6+ slots, especially now that Sakurai has received a lot of backlash for it.

I mean, Brawl having 3 Star Fox reps got quite a lot of negative reception (despite it not being as ridiculous as the 6 FE reps in Smash 4), with Smash 4 going from 3 Star Fox reps to 2 in the next game. Pokemon got Squirtle and Ivysaur cut from Brawl to Smash 4 which brought Pokemon reps from Brawl to Smash 4 (the base roster without DLC) from 6 reps to 5 (Sakurai considers form changes/Pokemon Trainer Pokemon to be separate characters in interviews). The Mario series went from 5 reps to 4 reps from Melee to Brawl. It's hardly a stretch for Sakurai to lower the amount of FE reps in a brand new Smash game, especially since this time, he's getting loads more complaints about it than he did with too many Star Fox reps in Brawl.

[Zangetsu]

2 hours ago, Motendra said:

Ah, I see now. Given the way she is designed and conceptualized, it's quite unfortunate, yet seemingly unavoidable. As for the bow thing, I think that's a reference to how they have the archer line as default reclass options. That Lucy gets bows in contrast to Chrom's lances though..... *shrug*

I'm aware of that, but I really rather not take that away from Lyn & Alm. If I'm being less bias, that bow makes Alm's fighting style stand out more. Well that & being left handed since apparently Nintendo doesn't want Link to be left-handed anymore.

 

1 hour ago, Randoman said:

With the amount of complaints Smash 4 got in regards to both clones and too many FE reps, I have a feeling Sakurai will cut down on FE reps if the Switch Smash Bros. is a brand new game. With Lucina contributing to both of those complaints, FE13 already having Robin as a playable Smash rep, and not having a unique moveset (or even a decloned moveset like Roy), I feel Lucina is a prime candidate for being cut. Lucina taking minimal time/resources to implement as a separate character slot won't justify FE having a whopping 6+ slots, especially now that Sakurai has received a lot of backlash for it.

Sakurai already explain how clones works & they don't take up a slot. As for having too many FE reps, well that's what happen when you have the 2nd biggest cast after Pokemon. People really need get rid of that mindset about "This guy took this *insert desire character here* therefore I hate them!". That's not how it works, so if Lyn, Ephraim, or Hector makes the cut they didn't take  K-Rool, Ridley, or Krystal's spot. For that matter there's no real reason why both Hector & Lyn can't make it in either. Lucina's dilemma can easily be fix as the mods already shows.

 

1 hour ago, Randoman said:

I mean, Brawl having 3 Star Fox reps got quite a lot of negative reception (despite it not being as ridiculous as the 6 FE reps in Smash 4), with Smash 4 going from 3 Star Fox reps to 2 in the next game. Pokemon got Squirtle and Ivysaur cut from Brawl to Smash 4 which brought Pokemon reps from Brawl to Smash 4 (the base roster without DLC) from 6 reps to 5 (Sakurai considers form changes/Pokemon Trainer Pokemon to be separate characters in interviews). The Mario series went from 5 reps to 4 reps from Melee to Brawl. It's hardly a stretch for Sakurai to lower the amount of FE reps in a brand new Smash game, especially since this time, he's getting loads more complaints about it than he did with too many Star Fox reps in Brawl.

& There's just as many people who are upset that Wolf didn't make the cut to the point there's a heated argument whether he or Falco should've been cut instead. If Sakurai really wanted to avoid to backlash he should've put one more effort for Wolf to make the cut.

 

Like Wolf, I've seen people complaining about Squirtle & Ivysaur not returning either. This was probably because there was already too many Gen 1 Pokemons but I seriously doubt the complaints would've outweigh acceptance of their return.

 

The Mario series is by far the most rep out of the characters. I'm just going to assume that you're not including Wario, Yoshi, & DK for whatever reason but that doesn't change they went 4 to 7 either way in Smash 4.

 

For the record each Smash game has always increase the amount of characters being in the game & people tend to be a lot more angrier when someone doesn't return rather than enjoying someone's exclusion. So you're solution to assuage the Smash community by lowering the FE reps isn't going to work. Complaints are inevitable especially in the Smash community. Or any community really, a lot of people are very self entitled.

[LucinaRobin]

2 hours ago, Randoman said:

Well, if the Switch Smash Bros. is a brand new game and not an enhanced port of Smash 4, Lucina feels like she'd be the first to be on the chopping block in terms of FE characters.

Lau pretty much covered my thoughts on the other 5 FE characters (technically my thoughts on Corrin and Roy staying are slightly different, but not enough for me to argue against them). With the amount of complaints Smash 4 got in regards to both clones and too many FE reps, I have a feeling Sakurai will cut down on FE reps if the Switch Smash Bros. is a brand new game. With Lucina contributing to both of those complaints, FE13 already having Robin as a playable Smash rep, and not having a unique moveset (or even a decloned moveset like Roy), I feel Lucina is a prime candidate for being cut. Lucina taking minimal time/resources to implement as a separate character slot won't justify FE having a whopping 6+ slots, especially now that Sakurai has received a lot of backlash for it.

I mean, Brawl having 3 Star Fox reps got quite a lot of negative reception (despite it not being as ridiculous as the 6 FE reps in Smash 4), with Smash 4 going from 3 Star Fox reps to 2 in the next game. Pokemon got Squirtle and Ivysaur cut from Brawl to Smash 4 which brought Pokemon reps from Brawl to Smash 4 (the base roster without DLC) from 6 reps to 5 (Sakurai considers form changes/Pokemon Trainer Pokemon to be separate characters in interviews). The Mario series went from 5 reps to 4 reps from Melee to Brawl. It's hardly a stretch for Sakurai to lower the amount of FE reps in a brand new Smash game, especially since this time, he's getting loads more complaints about it than he did with too many Star Fox reps in Brawl.

How many characters are from Mario and pokemon franchise?

Are 6 too many?

Is "similarity" reason for the removing?

 

[Randoman]

@Zangetsu

I'm well aware of how clones work, how they barely take any time and effort to implement, and how they don't take up character slots (I mentioned that 3 posts ago). A lot of other people do as well. The problem a lot of us have is when the character representation in a roster as a whole makes it look like certain series are bigger/more important than others. I mean, Fire Emblem isn't more important than Zelda just because the former has 1 more character than the latter in Smash 4. Kid Icarus isn't more important than Donkey Kong because Kid Icarus has 3 playable characters while Donkey Kong has 2. I know practically everyone is aware that isn't the case. However, even the appearance of the roster and character count within game series can leave a bad taste and a bad impression in most people, whether or not they know how clones work and how they take little to no resources. I mean, would you be okay if FE only got Marth, Ike, Robin, and Lucina in Smash 4 and Pikmin got Olimar, Louie, Alph, Brittany , and Charlie as playable characters because making 4 Olimar clones took little to no effort, and they could make 5 separate characters by having each of the Pikmin characters use only one Pikmin type? Sure, a lot of Pikmin fans might be happy and no roster slots would've been taken, but in terms of character representation, a majority of people would find that really unfair, even those who are aware of how clones and character slots work. Even if Fire Emblem has one of the biggest character casts, that doesn't change the fact that it's not as big a series to Nintendo as a whole compared to the heavy hitters like Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda. I mean, if a series like Mother/Earthbound or Xenoblade Chronicles had as many playable characters as Fire Emblem does in its entire series, would you justify Mother/Earthbound and Xenoblade Chronicles having 5 to 6 characters each despite being niche and obscure compared to Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda?

Long story short, just the character rep count itself for a game series in the Smash roster is a big deal to a lot of people, whether or not they know about clones taking little effort and not taking away slots. So even though it may not be a big deal for you and for some others, that doesn't change the fact that character rep count means a lot to the majority of Smash fans, both the ones that know how roster development and clones work and the ones that don't know.

As for my point on series reps being lowered from Melee to Brawl and Brawl to Smash 4, I'm just saying Sakurai has done it before, and it could potentially happen again for the Switch Smash. I know that lowering or raising the character representatives for any series, whether it's Star Fox or Fire Emblem, will cause both praise and backlash (though the backlash for FE having 6 characters in Smash 4 is the arguably the biggest backlash in the Smash fanbase as a whole, in terms of series representation). That still doesn't change the fact that character representatives being lowered has happened in Smash sequels, and the Switch Smash Bros. may follow the same tradition. I never said it was guaranteed to happen.

@LucinaRobin

Mainstream Mario has 7 now (9 if you count Yoshi and Wario) and Pokemon 6. Seeing how Mario and Pokemon are some of Nintendo's most iconic game franchises (and the most iconic in general gaming too), the high character count those series have is justifiable for most people, especially with Mario and Pokemon being the best selling video game franchises at 528 million units and 300 million units, respectively.

However, with Fire Emblem not being as popular or as strong of sellers as those 2, a lot of people think that Fire Emblem having 6 reps is ridiculous and too much. I'm sure if Fire Emblem was as popular and well known or as strong a seller as Nintendo's main franchises, people would be okay with it. Unfortunately, it isn't, so a lot of people want the number of playable FE characters lowered so that the character count doesn't make it look like Fire Emblem is as big and iconic as Mario or Pokemon (see the first paragraph of this post).

Similarity isn't exactly the main I think Lucina will removed. The main factor is that 6 FE reps is considered to be excessive by a lot of Smash fans. I mean, a series like Mario or Pokemon is iconic and popular enough to justify 6 or more characters in the eyes of most fans, even if one or two of them are clones. However, as I said before, 6 FE reps is considered to be too much by a lot of Smash fans, so in order to alleviate that complaint, an FE rep would have to be removed. Lucina is agreed upon by many people to be the most likely to be cut of the FE characters, due to both heavy similarities with Marth and many other reasons posted in this thread (I've already covered the backlash that 6 FE characters caused even if one of them didn't take a slot and took almost no effort to make into a separate character).

I think the whole "series reps" talk is derailing this thread and bringing it off topic more than it should, so maybe we should cut it off here. Overall, I can't guarantee if Lucina will stay or not, but I was just throwing in my thoughts on series reps getting lowered in Smash sequels and how Lucina may get cut from the roster in a similar manner (though it's not guaranteed at all), especially with the majority of Smash fans complaining with FE being overrepresented (though Sakurai may not cater to those complaints). If Lucina stays and/or FE gets even more reps in the Switch Smash Bros., fine, I was wrong. These are just my predictions based on fan feedback and what Sakurai has done in the past.

[Slumber]

32 minutes ago, Randoman said:

@Zangetsu

I'm well aware of how clones work, how they barely take any time and effort to implement, and how they don't take up character slots (I mentioned that 3 posts ago). A lot of other people do as well. The problem a lot of us have is when the character representation in a roster as a whole makes it look like certain series are bigger/more important than others. I mean, Fire Emblem isn't more important than Zelda just because the former has 1 more character than the latter in Smash 4. Kid Icarus isn't more important than Donkey Kong because Kid Icarus has 3 playable characters while Donkey Kong has 2. I know practically everyone is aware that isn't the case. However, even the appearance of the roster and character count within game series can leave a bad taste and a bad impression in most people, whether or not they know how clones work and how they take little to no resources. I mean, would you be okay if FE only got Marth, Ike, Robin, and Lucina in Smash 4 and Pikmin got Olimar, Louie, Alph, Brittany , and Charlie as playable characters because making 4 Olimar clones took little to no effort, and they could make 5 separate characters by having each of the Pikmin characters use only one Pikmin type? Sure, a lot of Pikmin fans might be happy and no roster slots would've been taken, but in terms of character representation, a majority of people would find that really unfair, even those who are aware of how clones and character slots work. Even if Fire Emblem has one of the biggest character casts, that doesn't change the fact that it's not as big a series to Nintendo as a whole compared to the heavy hitters like Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda. I mean, if a series like Mother/Earthbound or Xenoblade Chronicles had as many playable characters as Fire Emblem does in its entire series, would you justify Mother/Earthbound and Xenoblade Chronicles having 5 to 6 characters each despite being niche and obscure compared to Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda?

Long story short, just the character rep count itself for a game series in the Smash roster is a big deal to a lot of people, whether or not they know about clones taking little effort and not taking away slots. So even though it may not be a big deal for you and for some others, that doesn't change the fact that character rep count means a lot to the majority of Smash fans, both the ones that know how roster development and clones work and the ones that don't know.

As for my point on series reps being lowered from Melee to Brawl and Brawl to Smash 4, I'm just saying Sakurai has done it before, and it could potentially happen again for the Switch Smash. I know that lowering or raising the character representatives for any series, whether it's Star Fox or Fire Emblem, will cause both praise and backlash (though the backlash for FE having 6 characters in Smash 4 is the arguably the biggest backlash in the Smash fanbase as a whole, in terms of series representation). That still doesn't change the fact that character representatives being lowered has happened in Smash sequels, and the Switch Smash Bros. may follow the same tradition. I never said it was guaranteed to happen.

@LucinaRobin

Mainstream Mario has 7 now (9 if you count Yoshi and Wario) and Pokemon 6. Seeing how Mario and Pokemon are some of Nintendo's most iconic game franchises (and the most iconic in general gaming too), the high character count those series have is justifiable for most people, especially with Mario and Pokemon being the best selling video game franchises at 528 million units and 300 million units, respectively.

However, with Fire Emblem not being as popular or as strong of sellers as those 2, a lot of people think that Fire Emblem having 6 reps is ridiculous and too much. I'm sure if Fire Emblem was as popular and well known or as strong a seller as Nintendo's main franchises, people would be okay with it. Unfortunately, it isn't, so a lot of people want the number of playable FE characters lowered so that the character count doesn't make it look like Fire Emblem is as big and iconic as Mario or Pokemon (see the first paragraph of this post).

Similarity isn't exactly the main I think Lucina will removed. The main factor is that 6 FE reps is considered to be excessive by a lot of Smash fans. I mean, a series like Mario or Pokemon is iconic and popular enough to justify 6 or more characters in the eyes of most fans, even if one or two of them are clones. However, as I said before, 6 FE reps is considered to be too much by a lot of Smash fans, so in order to alleviate that complaint, an FE rep would have to be removed. Lucina is agreed upon by many people to be the most likely to be cut of the FE characters, due to both heavy similarities with Marth and many other reasons posted in this thread (I've already covered the backlash that 6 FE characters caused even if one of them didn't take a slot and took almost no effort to make into a separate character).

I think the whole "series reps" talk is derailing this thread and bringing it off topic more than it should, so maybe we should cut it off here. Overall, I can't guarantee if Lucina will stay or not, but I was just throwing in my thoughts on series reps getting lowered in Smash sequels and how Lucina may get cut from the roster in a similar manner (though it's not guaranteed at all), especially with the majority of Smash fans complaining with FE being overrepresented (though Sakurai may not cater to those complaints). If Lucina stays and/or FE gets even more reps in the Switch Smash Bros., fine, I was wrong. These are just my predictions based on fan feedback and what Sakurai has done in the past.

I'm largely in the same boat. It isn't because there are 6 FE characters(And almost assuredly there'll be more for Switch to promote the upcoming game), it's because there are 6 in a roster that likely won't go above 70. Fire Emblem already accounts for over 1/10th of Sm4sh's roster. That is some MASSIVELY disproportionate cast choice. I'd only argue that FE is a top 5(Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Animal Crossing and then maybe Fire Emblem) Nintendo franchise ONLY because of Heroes right now. If Heroes didn't exist and wasn't a massive money makes, I'd argue Splatoon(Due to its incredibly fast rise to prominence) or Donkey Kong(Due to its age, consistency and a counterpart to Mario) would be much more deserving as #5.

For a game that's supposed to celebrate all of Nintendo's franchises and then some gaming legacy characters like Pacman, Megaman and Sonic, Sm4sh certainly feels a lot like a Fire Emblem party more than anything else.

Of the existing FE characters in Smash, I'd agree that Lucina is much more likely to get chopped than anyone else. She doesn't contribute much to the roster beyond people being happy simply seeing Lucina. All of the others are unique. On top of this, 3DS representation in Smash is disproportionate to even the FE characters in Smash. The NES era has 1, the GBA era has 1, the GC/Wii era has 1, the 3DS era has 3. Which made sense for Smash 4, since that came out when the 3DS FEs were new and Nintendo wanted to push more copies. We're moving past Smash 4, and we're moving on to a new era of Fire Emblem.

If they're going to cut FE characters, which they really need to, all signs point to Lucina. She's a clone, she's not the main representative of her game, she's part of an era that's not the current focus anymore, and she barely made it into Smash 4 as is.

After that, I don't know. I still think Robin could end up essentially reworked into something else(He/She's a mage knight. They don't have exactly the most unique fighting style ever). Corrin, as much as I hate them, can't really just be mapped over or removed entirely. They're much more unique in concept than Robin.

[Zangetsu]

@Randoman

 

Sure, but that doesn't mean Lucina should be cut it out for that. It just means there should be effort into decloning/Luigifying her & Dark Pit. Quite frankly it sounds like the only reason why anyone should cut it out so it mitigate a complaints. If cutting it out a character mean someone going to happy about it then that's not something worth the effort to begin with.

[NoirCore]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

I'm largely in the same boat. It isn't because there are 6 FE characters(And almost assuredly there'll be more for Switch to promote the upcoming game), it's because there are 6 in a roster that likely won't go above 70. Fire Emblem already accounts for over 1/10th of Sm4sh's roster. That is some MASSIVELY disproportionate cast choice. I'd only argue that FE is a top 5(Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Animal Crossing and then maybe Fire Emblem) Nintendo franchise ONLY because of Heroes right now. If Heroes didn't exist and wasn't a massive money makes, I'd argue Splatoon(Due to its incredibly fast rise to prominence) or Donkey Kong(Due to its age, consistency and a counterpart to Mario) would be much more deserving as #5.

For a game that's supposed to celebrate all of Nintendo's franchises and then some gaming legacy characters like Pacman, Megaman and Sonic, Sm4sh certainly feels a lot like a Fire Emblem party more than anything else.

Of the existing FE characters in Smash, I'd agree that Lucina is much more likely to get chopped than anyone else. She doesn't contribute much to the roster beyond people being happy simply seeing Lucina. All of the others are unique. On top of this, 3DS representation in Smash is disproportionate to even the FE characters in Smash. The NES era has 1, the GBA era has 1, the GC/Wii era has 1, the 3DS era has 3. Which made sense for Smash 4, since that came out when the 3DS FEs were new and Nintendo wanted to push more copies. We're moving past Smash 4, and we're moving on to a new era of Fire Emblem.

If they're going to cut FE characters, which they really need to, all signs point to Lucina. She's a clone, she's not the main representative of her game, she's part of an era that's not the current focus anymore, and she barely made it into Smash 4 as is.

After that, I don't know. I still think Robin could end up essentially reworked into something else(He/She's a mage knight. They don't have exactly the most unique fighting style ever). Corrin, as much as I hate them, can't really just be mapped over or removed entirely. They're much more unique in concept than Robin.

Personally, I consider the DK series as part of the Mario series. Still got a point about Mario's star power, though.

[Slumber]

15 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

Personally, I consider the DK series as part of the Mario series. Still got a point about Mario's star power, though.

It's weird. They're part of the same universe and they both spawned from the same game, but I'd consider them different series. There's enough divergence, and there are crossover games(Though the crossover games usually have the Mario title) that also treat them as separate from each other.

Plus, for their little icons in the Smash games, DK is separate from Mario. Mario gets the mushroom, DK gets the... well, the DK.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Slumber

[Lau]

I've always been against the saying "FE has too many reps".

Nintendo has stated that FE is one of their big guns, obviously this was after Smash 4 came out, but surely that should warrant FE having as many reps as say, Pokemon?

I think the complaint comes from the absurd belief of 'slots'. Slots don't exist. If Sakurai thinks they can bring something new to the roster, they're in, if they have the time of course.

Honestly, FE has the second largest cast, and is one of the older franchises. Why shouldn't they have the same amount of reps as Pokemon?

[LucinaRobin]

30 minutes ago, Lau said:

I've always been against the saying "FE has too many reps".

Nintendo has stated that FE is one of their big guns, obviously this was after Smash 4 came out, but surely that should warrant FE having as many reps as say, Pokemon?

I think the complaint comes from the absurd belief of 'slots'. Slots don't exist. If Sakurai thinks they can bring something new to the roster, they're in, if they have the time of course.

Honestly, FE has the second largest cast, and is one of the older franchises. Why shouldn't they have the same amount of reps as Pokemon?

Yeah. Large portion of fe is okay.

So I said removing lucina isn't that needed.

[Slumber]

59 minutes ago, Lau said:

I've always been against the saying "FE has too many reps".

Nintendo has stated that FE is one of their big guns, obviously this was after Smash 4 came out, but surely that should warrant FE having as many reps as say, Pokemon?

I think the complaint comes from the absurd belief of 'slots'. Slots don't exist. If Sakurai thinks they can bring something new to the roster, they're in, if they have the time of course.

Honestly, FE has the second largest cast, and is one of the older franchises. Why shouldn't they have the same amount of reps as Pokemon?

Because Fire Emblem doesn't get privileges just because of seniority. 

If that's how it worked, Donkey Kong and Mario would have far and away the most reps, with Zelda not too far behind. Then Kid Icarus. 

Actually, Game and Watch would have the most characters. 

Smash is a glorified advertisement for Nintendo franchises, and it uses other Nintendo franchises to advertise itself. Slots aren't a thing, but development time and game image are. 

Distance yourself from being a Fire Emblem fan. Then ask "Why in the world does Fire Emblem have more characters than any other series on the roster except Mario?" 

To anyone who has no idea what Fire Emblem is, that probably isn't going to help sell the game, because they're just seeing a bunch of characters they've never heard of. To anyone who knows about Fire Emblem and isn't a fan, it's just going to cause a string of jokes(which is did), calling the game "Smash Emblem" or "Super Fire Emblem Bros", which again, isn't going to really help anything. 

If you're a Fire Emblem fan, then great. You're the only person who's going to look at the roster and go "Yeah, this seems okay." 

The better strategy, and the one that Smash has been going for since inception, is to pack the roster with more franchises people know, and add in a lot of characters people might not know to get people interested. It goes back to this series basically being a glorified advertisement. It's also why, up until Smash U, Pokemon and Mario were generally the most prevalent franchises represented in Smash. Fire Emblem only ever had 2 reps at most. Then Smash U comes, and suddenly there's more FE representation than any franchise besides Mario. It ties Pokemon and beats Zelda of all things. 

Fire Emblem at its best doesn't even manage to touch Pokemon and Mario at their worst, saleswise. The newest Zelda outsold the console it launched on, and it still doesn't get the same love in Smash that FE does. There's absolutely no reason to the insane prevalence of Fire Emblem in Smash's roster, and anybody who isn't an FE fan is scratching their head. They'll see a roster dominated by a franchise that relatively few people care about, and they'll either be turned off or crack jokes. It's not a good look for Fire Emblem or Smash. 

And as for Lucina, Sakurai has been cracking down on clones. Clones from the same franchise generally get the boot. Falco is the one notable exception I can think of. Ganondorf was likely saved because Zelda could have used more representation, and he was at least from a different franchise as Captain Falcon. Similar deal with Young Link, who ended up becoming Toon Link. Not so much a bump from being in a different franchise, more like a bump from having something new to draw inspiration from. 

But Wolf, Pichu and Roy(Initially)? All got the boot. The most egregious clone still around from prior to Lucina was Doctor Mario. I don't really know why Doctor Mario of all things stayed, but he's an exception rather than a rule. 

Lucina has virtually... Everything going against her.

You say "Sakurai puts people in if he thinks they can contribute something", but Lucina is literally just training wheels Marth. She might be the laziest clone in Smash history besides Dark Pit. She doesn't look much different than Marth. She is the second character from a single game that's part of a franchise that has too many characters in Smash, which isn't the newest game in the franchise anymore. 

If Sakurai put in characters if he thought contributed something, then nobody would ever get cut from the roster. We know that's not true. A lot of characters get added in because they want to fill out the roster more and have a big number to point to on the game box. "Look at how many characters are in the game!" Lucina is a prime example of this. Her inclusion came very late in development, and she's a complete moveset clone. The only reason she's there is because she's an Awakening fan favorite while Awakening was still hot shit in 2014, and Fates came out near the end of Smash U's development. The same thing more or less happened with Roy and Melee, and Roy was cut for two games until getting an overhaul and released as DLC. 

If she doesn't get cut, I'll be shocked. The only way this doesn't happen is if the game is like an enhanced port of Smash U and EVERYTHING gets ported over.  

Edited March 13, 2018 by Slumber

[Lau]

@Slumber It was wrong of me to mention FE's age to support my point, I'll admit that.

I mentioned development time, and I acknowledge that it takes a lot of work to create characters, believe me, I've had this debate plenty of times during the time I was active on Smashboards a few years back.

And just to make it clear, and I'm sorry if I sound snappy here it's really not my intention, me disagreeing with "Smash has too many FE reps" has nothing to do with me being a FE fan. When I look at the character select screen, I don't see it as fractions or percentages. I just see it as rows of characters. If Sakurai adds a character, FE or not, I'll take it, it doesn't matter to me. If FE had, say, 8 reps, then god yes, I'd be unhappy about it. But at six as it is now? That's not really a big deal. Seven would be pushing it, but anymore than that, I'd completely agree with you.

[LucinaRobin]

7 hours ago, Slumber said:

Because Fire Emblem doesn't get privileges just because of seniority. 

If that's how it worked, Donkey Kong and Mario would have far and away the most reps, with Zelda not too far behind. Then Kid Icarus. 

Actually, Game and Watch would have the most characters. 

Smash is a glorified advertisement for Nintendo franchises, and it uses other Nintendo franchises to advertise itself. Slots aren't a thing, but development time and game image are. 

Distance yourself from being a Fire Emblem fan. Then ask "Why in the world does Fire Emblem have more characters than any other series on the roster except Mario?" 

To anyone who has no idea what Fire Emblem is, that probably isn't going to help sell the game, because they're just seeing a bunch of characters they've never heard of. To anyone who knows about Fire Emblem and isn't a fan, it's just going to cause a string of jokes(which is did), calling the game "Smash Emblem" or "Super Fire Emblem Bros", which again, isn't going to really help anything. 

If you're a Fire Emblem fan, then great. You're the only person who's going to look at the roster and go "Yeah, this seems okay." 

The better strategy, and the one that Smash has been going for since inception, is to pack the roster with more franchises people know, and add in a lot of characters people might not know to get people interested. It goes back to this series basically being a glorified advertisement. It's also why, up until Smash U, Pokemon and Mario were generally the most prevalent franchises represented in Smash. Fire Emblem only ever had 2 reps at most. Then Smash U comes, and suddenly there's more FE representation than any franchise besides Mario. It ties Pokemon and beats Zelda of all things. 

Fire Emblem at its best doesn't even manage to touch Pokemon and Mario at their worst, saleswise. The newest Zelda outsold the console it launched on, and it still doesn't get the same love in Smash that FE does. There's absolutely no reason to the insane prevalence of Fire Emblem in Smash's roster, and anybody who isn't an FE fan is scratching their head. They'll see a roster dominated by a franchise that relatively few people care about, and they'll either be turned off or crack jokes. It's not a good look for Fire Emblem or Smash. 

And as for Lucina, Sakurai has been cracking down on clones. Clones from the same franchise generally get the boot. Falco is the one notable exception I can think of. Ganondorf was likely saved because Zelda could have used more representation, and he was at least from a different franchise as Captain Falcon. Similar deal with Young Link, who ended up becoming Toon Link. Not so much a bump from being in a different franchise, more like a bump from having something new to draw inspiration from. 

But Wolf, Pichu and Roy(Initially)? All got the boot. The most egregious clone still around from prior to Lucina was Doctor Mario. I don't really know why Doctor Mario of all things stayed, but he's an exception rather than a rule. 

Lucina has virtually... Everything going against her.

You say "Sakurai puts people in if he thinks they can contribute something", but Lucina is literally just training wheels Marth. She might be the laziest clone in Smash history besides Dark Pit. She doesn't look much different than Marth. She is the second character from a single game that's part of a franchise that has too many characters in Smash, which isn't the newest game in the franchise anymore. 

If Sakurai put in characters if he thought contributed something, then nobody would ever get cut from the roster. We know that's not true. A lot of characters get added in because they want to fill out the roster more and have a big number to point to on the game box. "Look at how many characters are in the game!" Lucina is a prime example of this. Her inclusion came very late in development, and she's a complete moveset clone. The only reason she's there is because she's an Awakening fan favorite while Awakening was still hot shit in 2014, and Fates came out near the end of Smash U's development. The same thing more or less happened with Roy and Melee, and Roy was cut for two games until getting an overhaul and released as DLC. 

If she doesn't get cut, I'll be shocked. The only way this doesn't happen is if the game is like an enhanced port of Smash U and EVERYTHING gets ported over.  

Okay. You're saying there are too many fe characters here.

I saw fe series first time in ssb4. I played from ssb4.

At first I never felt there are series here. Then I knew there was some series that can group characters.

The ratio of character from series is important. But more than that is "fun".

Let's thinks like this. If shulk, pit and palutena were part of fire emblem, then they must be cut because of too many fe characters?

Or if fe divides into two series like "fe" and "light dragon", then is it okay?

Ratio is important. But when we put "fun" and "ratio" on balance, "fun" is heavier than "ratio"

If we are fun, that's all. No more things are needed than "fun". I think.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by LucinaRobin

[Slumber]

4 hours ago, LucinaRobin said:

Okay. You're saying there are too many fe characters here.

I saw fe series first time in ssb4. I played from ssb4.

At first I never felt there are series here. Then I knew there was some series that can group characters.

The ratio of character from series is important. But more than that is "fun".

Let's thinks like this. If shulk, pit and palutena were part of fire emblem, then they must be cut because of too many fe characters?

Or if fe divides into two series like "fe" and "light dragon", then is it okay?

Ratio is important. But when we put "fun" and "ratio" on balance, "fun" is heavier than "ratio"

If we are fun, that's all. No more things are needed than "fun". I think.

 

 

You're bringing up hypotheticals to defend realities.

Palutena, Pit and Shulk aren't from FE. They're from their own games, and they're representing their games, as is everyone in Smash. IF they WERE FE characters, then yes. That would still be too many FE characters. And if they needed to be in the game, you know who would be the first person replaced by them? Lucina.

And yes, "fun" is an important part of Smash. But this is a thread about Lucina. If there was a character in Smash that added the least amount of fun, it would be her. She's one of the strictest clones in the game, only without the person she's a clone of's gimmick. Dark Pit at least has a different FS, even if it is a clone of another character's FS. Lucina? All Marth. And again, she's Marth with training wheels. Marth isn't that difficult of a character to learn, and if you play Lucina enough, there's really no good reason to not move on to Marth.

Most people who play Smash for enough time are going to see Lucina and go "Why is she here?". She does less damage than Marth while bringing nothing new to the table. The few people who are going to be upset if Lucina is removed are simply happy just seeing her, which is a bad reason to keep a character in a video game(Which is a glorified advertisement) when it's already stirring up shit among the people who don't fall into that crowd.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Slumber

[Randoman]

@Slumber Wow. You summed up my thoughts and a lot of other people's thoughts on FE's over-representation perfectly, and with a lot more detail and supporting arguments. Thanks!!

@Zangetsu See Slumber's posts. He summed it up better than me as to why in FE's and the Switch Smash Bros.' case, it'd probably be one of the few times it'd be better to cut down on character reps for a series. These 2 quotes:

14 hours ago, Slumber said:

Slots aren't a thing, but development time and game image are.

 

14 hours ago, Slumber said:

There's absolutely no reason to the insane prevalence of Fire Emblem in Smash's roster, and anybody who isn't an FE fan is scratching their head. They'll see a roster dominated by a franchise that relatively few people care about, and they'll either be turned off or crack jokes. It's not a good look for Fire Emblem or Smash.

Hit the nail on the head.

Even if decloning Lucina takes little resources, that doesn't change the fact that a large amount of Smash fans (perhaps around 70%-80%) don't play Fire Emblem, and many of them find it ridiculous that an obscure series (especially compared to Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda) is taking up 10% or more of the roster slots. Even other Fire Emblem fans find it ridiculous that Smash 4's roster has that big of a percentage being taken by Fire Emblem characters, since they know that as much as they love the series, it's still niche and obscure to the general gaming public. If this was a Star Fox and Brawl situation (with only 3 characters and Star Fox only taking around 7% of the roster, with Pokemon Trainer Pokemon and Sheik/Zero Suit Samus being counted as separate characters since Sakurai considers them as such in interviews), I might agree that the complaints are exaggerated and Smash 4 shouldn't cut down on the amount of Star Fox reps. But with Fire Emblem and Smash 4's situation, 6 characters and over 10% of the roster is excessive and unfair to the general Nintendo fanbase. No other game series in Smash is that over-represented without the popularity and sales to justify it (except for maybe Kid Icarus, which will likely face a similar fate in having Dark Pit cut and Kid Icarus reps being brought down from 3 to 2), and this is one of the few cases where bumping down the amount of reps is the best thing to do for the Smash Bros. fanbase, as a whole.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Randoman

[Zangetsu]

@Randoman

 

And I'll say it again, if that what it takes to make a community happy maybe they're not worth the trouble mitigate the backlash at all. If you're going to tell that other character gets more privilege & more leeway than that just not right.

Saying Toad deserve to get in just because he's from Mario while someone like Lucas gets cut out because he's play similar to Ness is ridiculous & he's from a niche series is wrong way to do it.