lucina

[eclipse]

Honestly?  Make Lucina a Marth skin (like the Robin/Corrin choices), since she plays so similarly to him.

Hell, give an option with and without the mask.  Part of her schtick is disguising herself as him.

Edited March 14, 2018 by eclipse

[Zangetsu]

So let me get this straight, from what I can tell from everyone response here is Lucina being a skin or just to get cut out.

[Slumber]

46 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

So let me get this straight, from what I can tell from everyone response here is Lucina being a skin or just to get cut out.

A skin would be the best bet, since she would technically still be there if people looked hard enough. 

[Dai]

Hell, do the same for Dr. Mario and Dark Pit (the latter, since he already was an alternate palette to begin with)

[Zangetsu]

7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

A skin would be the best bet, since she would technically still be there if people looked hard enough. 

How hard do you even need look to begin with? It's not like a it was a major secret that Wario has his original outfit & the Wii Fit has a male counterpart.

I still think it's ridiculous that one of most popular character in the series now has to be a alt skin just so a backlash can avoided, but whatever. For the fans by the fans.

 

Because what is Lucina but a female version of Marth & Chrom?

Edited March 14, 2018 by Zangetsu

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, Zangetsu said:

I still think it's ridiculous that one of most popular character in the series now has to be a alt skin just so a backlash can avoided, but whatever. For the fans by the fans.

Honestly, that's on the developers for making her uninteresting.

[Zangetsu]

2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Honestly, that's on the developers for making her uninteresting.

If you're talking about her character then that's subjective, if you're talking about how she debut in Smash Bros then Sakurai already went on the record about it.

 

I'm also just gonna assume that most people already know about what Sakura already said about it or rather his backlash to the criticism about it.

[LucinaRobin]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Honestly, that's on the developers for making her uninteresting.

I think "uninteresting" isn't reason for removing. Some people have interest in lucina.

Many characters are from mario series. But it's nice. I don't feel there is need to remove some of them.

Among fe series lucina, robin and corrin are characters from recent series and similarity isn't same.

So I think removing lucina isn't needed.

 

 

[NoirCore]

I think Lucina should just be a skin for Marth, but keep her in. From what I observed, she has plenty of fans from Smash and/or FE, even as a clone. Cutting her or keeping her as a separate character will cause a blizzard from some party. At least keeping her wouldn't hit one party as bad as cutting would another, but either way, the game would get more hell than just converting her into an alt costume. Lucina stays in, people see that "slot" "open up" (not that I believe in slots, it's all up to development effort), less people angry.

[HK Motendra]

3 hours ago, NoirCore said:

I think Lucina should just be a skin for Marth, but keep her in. From what I observed, she has plenty of fans from Smash and/or FE, even as a clone. Cutting her or keeping her as a separate character will cause a blizzard from some party. At least keeping her wouldn't hit one party as bad as cutting would another, but either way, the game would get more hell than just converting her into an alt costume. Lucina stays in, people see that "slot" "open up" (not that I believe in slots, it's all up to development effort), less people angry.

But then lies the question of can that even be done? Going off Sakurai's explanation, she has different properties (even if it's the most minute thing possible), which is the only reason she's on the roster in the first place. Would it be wise to go against what they already set in stone?

Alternatively, what they could do is giver her what WOULD HAVE been Chrom's moveset [#StillSalty] and then have Chrom an alt costume for Lucina. I don't know how they'd accommodate the height difference, but at least then, none of the Awakes are left out this time. 'Course, that would also mean giving Robin a new FS [even if the cameo made it the best one] which can easily be solve with Grima

[Michelaar]

Honestly? Thinking about it, cutting Lucina really isn't neccesary at all. Sakurai has mentioned before that 'stealing spots' is in fact not a thing. If they have extra time/room, I wouldn't mind if they kept Lucina at all. There is really no reason to get so upset over it honestly.

[NoirCore]

5 hours ago, Motendra said:

But then lies the question of can that even be done? Going off Sakurai's explanation, she has different properties (even if it's the most minute thing possible), which is the only reason she's on the roster in the first place. Would it be wise to go against what they already set in stone?

Alternatively, what they could do is giver her what WOULD HAVE been Chrom's moveset [#StillSalty] and then have Chrom an alt costume for Lucina. I don't know how they'd accommodate the height difference, but at least then, none of the Awakes are left out this time. 'Course, that would also mean giving Robin a new FS [even if the cameo made it the best one] which can easily be solve with Grima

Either give her a new moveset or do away with her very identical moveset to Marth, make her an alt skin, and have her play exactly like Marth. I'm sure they'd figure something out for the latter.

[LucinaRobin]

14 hours ago, Slumber said:

A skin would be the best bet, since she would technically still be there if people looked hard enough. 

So, this game has large roster.

If they make 70 roster this time, it can be 71 if lucina is included as seperate slot.

Is that a matter? Lucina doesn't block inclusion of any characters.

Only adding one more slot..

[Michelaar]

34 minutes ago, LucinaRobin said:

So, this game has large roster.

If they make 70 roster this time, it can be 71 if lucina is included as seperate slot.

Is that a matter? Lucina doesn't block inclusion of any characters.

Only adding one more slot..

Exactly, I don't see the problem. They could also easily just add a move to make her stand out.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, LucinaRobin said:

So, this game has large roster.

If they make 70 roster this time, it can be 71 if lucina is included as seperate slot.

Is that a matter? Lucina doesn't block inclusion of any characters.

Only adding one more slot..

I don't want to repeat myself any more than I already have, so I'll say this clearly:

"Slots" aren't the only reason to keep a characters out of Smash. If it was just "slots" not being a thing, characters would virtually never get removed, and clones like Pichu and Wolf, who diverge WAY more from their originals than Lucina does, would never have been cut.

1 hour ago, Michelaar said:

Exactly, I don't see the problem. They could also easily just add a move to make her stand out.

Now we're getting into the region of "Why put any work into her when you could put work into a new character?"

Awakening is a 6 year old game. It will be damn near 7 by the time Smash 5 comes out. The 3DS era of FE already has two distinct, unique characters in the Smash roster, with one of them ALREADY belonging to Awakening.

Going along with Smash being a glorified advertisement(Which it is. It's why Pokemon get added and taken out based on the most recent gen of Pokemon to remind people that there's new Pokemon to catch), there's no reason for Lucina to be in there or to be given special attention now as opposed to 4 years ago when Smash 4 came out and Awakening was still relatively new.

Lucina being a strict clone already demonstrates that, again, people are just happy seeing Lucina, and really couldn't give two shits about how she plays. Making her a Marth skin alleviates a lot of problems that people who aren't fans of FE have, while still appealing to the people who just want to see Lucina.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Slumber

[Chconroy]

When it comes to rosters, I look at every character included and ask "Do they have a reason to be here?". Lucina staying for the next game may not take away anything, but I can't see it adding anything. Her gameplay style? Marth's is more unique. Don't want to play as Marth, but you like parts of his style? Roy's an excellent case of how to do a semi-clone (see Luigi and Lucas). Want an Awakening character in Smash? Robin not only fits that bill, but they have more interesting color options and a gameplay style unlike any other Fire Emblem character. Lucina's only option to not become an alt is to get a change in her moveset, but at that point I'd rather have a different FE character take her role for greater game representation.

[Michelaar]

44 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I don't want to repeat myself any more than I already have, so I'll say this clearly:

"Slots" aren't the only reason to keep a characters out of Smash. If it was just "slots" not being a thing, characters would virtually never get removed, and clones like Pichu and Wolf, who diverge WAY more from their originals than Lucina does, would never have been cut.

Now we're getting into the region of "Why put any work into her when you could put work into a new character?"

Awakening is a 6 year old game. It will be damn near 7 by the time Smash 5 comes out. The 3DS era of FE already has two distinct, unique characters in the Smash roster, with one of them ALREADY belonging to Awakening.

Going along with Smash being a glorified advertisement(Which it is. It's why Pokemon get added and taken out based on the most recent gen of Pokemon to remind people that there's new Pokemon to catch), there's no reason for Lucina to be in there or to be given special attention now as opposed to 4 years ago when Smash 4 came out and Awakening was still relatively new.

Lucina being a strict clone already demonstrates that, again, people are just happy seeing Lucina, and really couldn't give two shits about how she plays. Making her a Marth skin alleviates a lot of problems that people who aren't fans of FE have, while still appealing to the people who just want to see Lucina.

Fine if that's your opinion, then that's fine. You know what I think. We're not going to agree with eachother either way.

[Comet]

lucina was originally meant to be an alt

[Michelaar]

8 minutes ago, Comet said:

lucina was originally meant to be an alt

But they had more time so they made her a seperate character.

[Randoman]

 

21 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

@Randoman

And I'll say it again, if that what it takes to make a community happy maybe they're not worth the trouble mitigate the backlash at all. If you're going to tell that other character gets more privilege & more leeway than that just not right.

Saying Toad deserve to get in just because he's from Mario while someone like Lucas gets cut out because he's play similar to Ness is ridiculous & he's from a niche series is wrong way to do it.

So pleasing 20%-30% of the Smash fanbase while continuing to anger the other 70%-80% is the right thing to do? I'm not even talking about shafting the entire FE roster. Just cutting one FE character, or even making Lucina into a Marth skin rather than a separate character, is all it would take for most people to ease off on the FE over-representation issue. Even most FE fans would still find 5 FE characters (or 6 with one FE character cut and an FE Switch newcomer added in) in the Switch Smash's roster to be respectable and reasonable.

Sometimes, cuts need to be made to keep series representation balanced. I mean, would you find it acceptable if the Pokemon series never cut characters, and the Switch Smash had 1/4th of its roster consisting of playable Pokemon? Do you think avoiding the backlash of cutting characters is worth it and the right thing to do when it means 65%-80% of Smash fans getting angry about Smash essentially turning into a Pokemon fighting game?

As for your second paragraph, you may think it's wrong, but a good majority of the Smash fanbase finds it justified when more iconic and popular Nintendo game series get priority over the more obscure ones. At least that way, it's a good representation of Nintendo in general, and series like Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda are represented similarly in both their impact/popularity for Nintendo and the Smash roster which likewise represents the impact and popularity of Nintendo's franchises. Giving a niche franchise like Fire Emblem 10% of the Smash roster is ridiculous and implies that Fire Emblem is a much bigger seller for Nintendo than it actually is. And before you argue something like "by my logic, Ice Climbers represents 4% of Nintendo history in Melee", there's a big difference between a one time game being represented, and a niche game series with multiple installments being represented. I know that the Smash roster isn't perfect in terms of representing Nintendo's series and their impact/popularity perfectly (and honestly, that's okay with most people as long as they don't go overboard with certain series), but Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus are some of the biggest outliers in regards to excessive representation, and many people want it addressed. Whether you think it's wrong or not, at least 2/3rds of the Smash fanbase finds excessive representation for a niche game series to be even more wrong, so you're in the minority here.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree from here on out, if Slumber and I still haven't convinced you and if you don't have any new points and arguments to bring up.

[LucinaRobin]

17 hours ago, Randoman said:

So pleasing 20%-30% of the Smash fanbase while continuing to anger the other 70%-80% is the right thing to do? I'm not even talking about shafting the entire FE roster. Just cutting one FE character, or even making Lucina into a Marth skin rather than a separate character, is all it would take for most people to ease off on the FE over-representation issue. Even most FE fans would still find 5 FE characters (or 6 with one FE character cut and an FE Switch newcomer added in) in the Switch Smash's roster to be respectable and reasonable.

I mean 20%-30% is also customer and keeping lucina can make 70%-80%  to angry but not that strong compared to angry 20%-30% for cuting lucina.

17 hours ago, Randoman said:

Sometimes, cuts need to be made to keep series representation balanced. I mean, would you find it acceptable if the Pokemon series never cut characters, and the Switch Smash had 1/4th of its roster consisting of playable Pokemon? Do you think avoiding the backlash of cutting characters is worth it and the right thing to do when it means 65%-80% of Smash fans getting angry about Smash essentially turning into a Pokemon fighting game?

fe is 1/10th.

17 hours ago, Randoman said:

As for your second paragraph, you may think it's wrong, but a good majority of the Smash fanbase finds it justified when more iconic and popular Nintendo game series get priority over the more obscure ones. At least that way, it's a good representation of Nintendo in general, and series like Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda are represented similarly in both their impact/popularity for Nintendo and the Smash roster which likewise represents the impact and popularity of Nintendo's franchises. Giving a niche franchise like Fire Emblem 10% of the Smash roster is ridiculous and implies that Fire Emblem is a much bigger seller for Nintendo than it actually is. And before you argue something like "by my logic, Ice Climbers represents 4% of Nintendo history in Melee", there's a big difference between a one time game being represented, and a niche game series with multiple installments being represented. I know that the Smash roster isn't perfect in terms of representing Nintendo's series and their impact/popularity perfectly (and honestly, that's okay with most people as long as they don't go overboard with certain series), but Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus are some of the biggest outliers in regards to excessive representation, and many people want it addressed. Whether you think it's wrong or not, at least 2/3rds of the Smash fanbase finds excessive representation for a niche game series to be even more wrong, so you're in the minority here.

Even if lucina is removed so that 1/10th become 1/15th or 1/16th, that doesn't mean some character surely fill that space.

If other character doesn't fill that space, then fe series will be again 1/11th again. (Because total number of roster will decrease)

So then more cut will be needed.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by LucinaRobin

[Florete]

5 hours ago, Randoman said:

Whether you think it's wrong or not, at least 2/3rds of the Smash fanbase finds excessive representation for a niche game series to be even more wrong, so you're in the minority here.

Source? Somehow I doubt you've polled every person who bought Smash 4.

[Zangetsu]

6 hours ago, Randoman said:

So pleasing 20%-30% of the Smash fanbase while continuing to anger the other 70%-80% is the right thing to do? I'm not even talking about shafting the entire FE roster. Just cutting one FE character, or even making Lucina into a Marth skin rather than a separate character, is all it would take for most people to ease off on the FE over-representation issue. Even most FE fans would still find 5 FE characters (or 6 with one FE character cut and an FE Switch newcomer added in) in the Switch Smash's roster to be respectable and reasonable.

1st of all where these numbers even coming from? If Lucina gotta be an alt than so be it. Ganondorf for the last 3 games was clone for God knows why & I rather have him being decloned priority department. Maybe I just want my favorite character to be treated better than she has last few crossover game she's been in, but hey for the greater good right? I tend to not ask much from developers anymore, so excuse me for asking a bone to be thrown at me

 

6 hours ago, Randoman said:

Sometimes, cuts need to be made to keep series representation balanced. I mean, would you find it acceptable if the Pokemon series never cut characters, and the Switch Smash had 1/4th of its roster consisting of playable Pokemon? Do you think avoiding the backlash of cutting characters is worth it and the right thing to do when it means 65%-80% of Smash fans getting angry about Smash essentially turning into a Pokemon fighting game?

Actually I would be fine with Pokemon getting the most rep. After all they're one of Nintendo's franchise. If people were going to complain about it, let them. Sure as hell didn't stop them from complaining about the amount of Mario's reps.

 

6 hours ago, Randoman said:

As for your second paragraph, you may think it's wrong, but a good majority of the Smash fanbase finds it justified when more iconic and popular Nintendo game series get priority over the more obscure ones. At least that way, it's a good representation of Nintendo in general, and series like Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda are represented similarly in both their impact/popularity for Nintendo and the Smash roster which likewise represents the impact and popularity of Nintendo's franchises. Giving a niche franchise like Fire Emblem 10% of the Smash roster is ridiculous and implies that Fire Emblem is a much bigger seller for Nintendo than it actually is. And before you argue something like "by my logic, Ice Climbers represents 4% of Nintendo history in Melee", there's a big difference between a one time game being represented, and a niche game series with multiple installments being represented. I know that the Smash roster isn't perfect in terms of representing Nintendo's series and their impact/popularity perfectly (and honestly, that's okay with most people as long as they don't go overboard with certain series), but Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus are some of the biggest outliers in regards to excessive representation, and many people want it addressed. Whether you think it's wrong or not, at least 2/3rds of the Smash fanbase finds excessive representation for a niche game series to be even more wrong, so you're in the minority here.

Because 3 is now an excessive amount now. You think the mooks & items are really that bad compare to being playable? Well I guess Magnus & Phosphora shouldn't be assist trophies anymore. If you're going to tell that Ephraim, Lyn, & Hector can't make it in because that would make the Smash community angry & that would raise the FE cast then that's their problem. You're talking about a community that's very much self entitled on what they believe on what they're owed. I've seen so many people who just flat out disrespectful about Ridley's inclusion & exclusion. I've even seen when someone actually fix a problem & all it did cause someone else complain to about it.

 

If the DK Crew made it in, sure why not? Rundas being playable, hey I'm down for it. But K.Rool makes it in & Lucas has to be cut it out because of that, screw that noise. No actual evidence that character's development comes at the expense of another character, but I don't want a character to get cut out period. If people really are still complaining about Dr. Mario's inclusion in Smash 4 even though Sakurai already explain why he's in, then that their problem.

 

Call me spoil, but Smash 4 has one of the best roster there is & seeing one of them get cut out would be a major disservice. My mindset is that "subtracting isn't adding", but if Sakurai goes out say something along lines of they got to take away so they can add something the I will respect that.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Zangetsu

[Randoman]

@Florete

Well, of course I can't get a consensus of every Smash 4 player out there. I do know based on a lot of online communities and forums, that as a whole the backlash for FE getting 6 characters far outweighs the praise for FE getting 6 characters (with a sizeable amount of the former saying Fire Emblem is no Mario/Pokemon/Zelda in terms of sales/popularity, or they at least mention something along those lines.). Though on a forum like SF that is a Fire Emblem based site, people's opinions are understandably going to be skewed on the matter.

@LucinaRobin @Zangetsu

We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree from this post onward, since there's been way too much argument repeating and we're not going anywhere with this discussion.

[Zangetsu]

So you say, but if we go off on who had the most frequent votes on should have won the Smash Ballot it should've been someone like K.Rool, Inklings, or Wolf. Instead Bayonetta won. If there's anything I learn on the internet there also the silent majority.