Rudolf was meant to be a villian folks

[Jotari]

So I hear a lot of people complaining about Rudolf's plan and, while I don't entirely agree, I do get it. A lot of it seems unnecessary and just plain luck based. But I don't really blame the writing of Echoes (entirely), I blame something else, the character design (which if you look at my signature, you'll see is something I also take issue with when it comes to Echoes!Alm). This is what Rudolf looks like in Gaiden.

He has deep black pits for eyes, his head is tilted down wards and he has one hell of an awesome evil mustache. He's also younger, with brown hair, which gives the feeling of more strength and vibrance.

This is what he looks like in Echoes.

The most obvious difference is that he's now much older looking. I'd peg Gaiden Rudolf to be in his early forties, while Echoes Rudolf is probably in his mid to late sixties. It doesn't really matter much to what I'm talking about, but I think the younger look to him makes sense from a plot standpoint as Alm's father. It's not unnatural or at all impossible for a man in his sixties to have a teenage son, but for a king, I find it much likely he started his family in his twenties. Anyway, back on the main point, this version of Rudolf looks proud, dignified and a hell of a lot like Walhart. If there's a word I'd use for his appearance, it would be Grandfatherly. He doesn't look kind so to speak, but he doesn't look like a megolmanic mass murderer. Mustachio up there, does. And that's the crux of the issue. Rudolf doesn't look like a bad guy in Echoes. At best he looks a bit smarmy. His eyes are even looking upwards, despite the fact that he's immensely tall, showing a lack of arrogance. Now I'm not of the opinion that all villians need to look like cackling despots, and all heroes need to look like heavenly angels of rightousness. But style is substance, how a character looks does affect the audience's perception of them. And Rudolf's appearance makes people think "Man, that guy was an idiot who got a shit tonne of people killed with his good intentions," as opposed to what I believe was the intended reaction "wow, so his intentions were sort of noble, but he went about them in the most heartless and inconsiderate way possible."

Recall, even in the miniamlist Gaiden script, Rudolf introduces himself in a cordial way to Alm and noblly declares his men to stand down once he's dead. Yet after the battle, when Alm knows Rudolf is his father, he still calls Rudolf a horrible person. Like Alvis and Sephiran, Rudolf is meant to be a man of contrast. Someone who's goals or personality is laudable, but who's actions are despicable. Everything Rudolf does is also in line with Duma's philosophy. Strength is everything. If humans can beat the very gods they worship, then it will prove they are strong enough to weather any conflict. I found in the original, it was ambigious wether or not it was even entirely Rudolf's plan alone, or if he was working with Duma. After all, Duma (who isn't crazy in Gaiden), praises Alm for defeating him and proving his strength.

So to put it succintly, Rudolf's plan depends, at its very core, on Alm being able to sigle handedly take on the armies of Rigel. It depends on him being the fated son of destiny that can accomplish anything. It depends on a crap tonne of people dying through no fault of their own. Because, at it's core, the plan is working off might makes right mentality. If the plan fails, then it deserves to fail because Alm and humanity (and the player), just aren't good enough to conquer the gods. It's not meant to be viewed as a smart plan, or a good plan. The fact that it succeeds is meant to be uncomfortable. It's meant to show that while this view point of the world is evil, there is logic to it. A cold hearted logic that we as a species might some day need to survive. But a logic that also isn't the be all and end all of our lives. A cold hearted logic that requires compassion to truly succeed. Because Alm didn't defeat Duma by just stabbing him in the face, he did it by standing beside Celica and abusing that 100% crit ratio! That, my friends, is gameplay and story integration.

Also, possibly unintentional, but he does share the same name as one of the most notorious nazis.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Jotari

[The Roger The Paladin]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Because Alm didn't defeat Duma by just stabbing him in the face, he did it by standing beside Celica and abusing that 100% crit ratio! That, my friends, is gameplay and story integration.

But what if your Alm's growths were so good that you basically did just have him stab Duma in the face while getting healed from afar?

[Jotari]

Just now, Mad-manakete said:

But what if your Alm's growths were so good that you basically did just have him stab Duma in the face while getting healed from afar?

Hey, stick Celica beside him and you don't even need to get healed from afar. Due to the way crits use to work, having Celica nearby will always be the best way to maximise damage in the last chapter (in Gaiden, this feature was removed in Shadows of Valentia). Unless for some reason you didn't train your second protagonist at all and she's at risk of dying merely by being there.

[DragonFlames]

THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I personally like Rudolf as an antagonist, because he reminds me so much of most Tales series antagonists (with one exception) in that he isn't entirely evil, just follows ideals opposed to the heroes'.

4 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

But what if your Alm's growths were so good that you basically did just have him stab Duma in the face while getting healed from afar?

Even with Alm RNG blessed to hell an back, he can't solo Duma on his own. Not really, anyway.

[The Roger The Paladin]

21 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I personally like Rudolf as an antagonist, because he reminds me so much of most Tales series antagonists (with one exception) in that he isn't entirely evil, just follows ideals opposed to the heroes'.

Even with Alm RNG blessed to hell an back, he can't solo Duma on his own. Not really, anyway.

Not the whole chapter. But you get rid of the pesky magic users guarding him with other units, have enough Defense (I managed 33 using springs in echoes, no overclass or star jacinth) and he's pretty good as long as you attack Duma with the sword and not the bow. Won't be a one round, and you'll definitely need physic being used on the regular. I should know. I did it just to see. Mind you, you'd have to grind him to 20/20 and be RNG blessed. I only know because I went for a rematch after I'd fought Grima to see how much easier he was after all that. OG Gaiden on the other hand with the lesser growth rates, it's probably not as easy. I'll have to see if I can do it later.
 

33 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Hey, stick Celica beside him and you don't even need to get healed from afar. Due to the way crits use to work, having Celica nearby will always be the best way to maximise damage in the last chapter (in Gaiden, this feature was removed in Shadows of Valentia). Unless for some reason you didn't train your second protagonist at all and she's at risk of dying merely by being there.

I guess end of the day it's not really a big deal. No matter how you look at it, Rudolf's world-view is counter-acted by the fact Alm, despite his strength being important, would have a damn hard time soloing the game. His achievements, like any Lord in the series are due to the friends and allies he made along the way. Rudolf's not merely a villain, he's a counterpoint to everything Alm is, believing in the strength of the self over the strength of bonds. But the ultimate irony is neither point is truly fully right. If Alm were too weak to fight Duma, then no one could substitute effectively... (well technically except using Nosferatu or Amiibo characters..... oh never mind saints aren't durable enough and Amiibo are non-canon)

[Schleimann]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Also, possibly unintentional, but he does share the same name as one of the most notorious nazis

He also shares the name of a red nosed reindeer, so I don't think we can read too much into the name.

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

And Rudolf's appearance makes people think "Man, that guy was an idiot who got a shit tonne of people killed with his good intentions," as opposed to what I believe was the intended reaction "wow, so his intentions were sort of noble, but he went about them in the most heartless and inconsiderate way possible."

Recall, even in the minimalist Gaiden script, Rudolf introduces himself in a cordial way to Alm and nobly declares his men to stand down once he's dead. Yet after the battle, when Alm knows Rudolf is his father, he still calls Rudolf a horrible person. Like Alvis and Sephiran, Rudolf is meant to be a man of contrast. Someone who's goals or personality is laudable, but who's actions are despicable. Everything Rudolf does is also in line with Duma's philosophy. Strength is everything. If humans can beat the very gods they worship, then it will prove they are strong enough to weather any conflict. I found in the original, it was ambiguous whether or not it was even entirely Rudolf's plan alone, or if he was working with Duma. After all, Duma (who isn't crazy in Gaiden), praises Alm for defeating him and proving his strength.

So to put it succinctly, Rudolf's plan depends, at its very core, on Alm being able to single-handedly take on the armies of Rigel. It depends on him being the fated son of destiny that can accomplish anything. It depends on a crap tonne of people dying through no fault of their own. Because, at it's core, the plan is working off might makes right mentality. If the plan fails, then it deserves to fail because Alm and humanity (and the player), just aren't good enough to conquer the gods. It's not meant to be viewed as a smart plan, or a good plan. The fact that it succeeds is meant to be uncomfortable. It's meant to show that while this view point of the world is evil, there is logic to it. A cold hearted logic that we as a species might some day need to survive. But a logic that also isn't the be all and end all of our lives. A cold hearted logic that requires compassion to truly succeed. Because Alm didn't defeat Duma by just stabbing him in the face, he did it by standing beside Celica and abusing that 100% crit ratio! That, my friends, is gameplay and story integration.

 

2 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

No matter how you look at it, Rudolf's world-view is counter-acted by the fact Alm, despite his strength being important, would have a damn hard time soloing the game. His achievements, like any Lord in the series are due to the friends and allies he made along the way. Rudolf's not merely a villain, he's a counterpoint to everything Alm is, believing in the strength of the self over the strength of bonds. But the ultimate irony is neither point is truly fully right. If Alm were too weak to fight Duma, then no one could substitute effectively... (well technically except using Nosferatu or Amiibo characters..... oh never mind saints aren't durable enough and Amiibo are non-canon)

 

Ah; now the "But in their quest for power, the Rigelians had let their hearts grow cold and numb to all kindness" line over a picture of Rudolf finally makes sense to me...

Honestly, I think you're both right, but I think the problem had less to do with appearance, and more to do with the writing. One problem with SoV was that it had topics and things like these in mind, but then did a really bad job presenting them and conveying them to the player. This goes for almost all the main characters, and Rudolf and Alm are no exceptions.

After Rudolf's death, we find Mycen telling Alm about Rudolf's plan, in such a way that it conveys, "This is the only way it could've happened, now stop crying and fight Duma." And Alm just... takes it. I get that he's grieving, but he's blaming himself without taking anything from it. If they wanted to convey that Alm and Rudolf are counterpoints to each other, then Mycen's explanation should have been laced with Rudolf's viewpoint, and then Alm, after a moment to cry, should have called the old men out on their actions; slowly starting to disagree and saying that they're wrong; that Alm has only gotten as far as he has because of the people alongside him, and called him out on the fact that Rudolf's and Rigel's obsession with strength and the next battle left them blind to both compassion and to alternative actions. Alm should have called them out on the fact that their intentions were good, but their actions were horrible, and that he is not going to lead like that.

For a bonus, they should've also had Alm have a bit of self-reflection. It may have been Rudolf's plan, but he jumped right into it; thinking only of the next battle; a flaw shared by both father and son, and, as you (Jotari) have in your signature, was supposed to be Alm's flaw in Echoes. But he never gets called out on it; Celica just yells at him in the reunion scene in a way that makes her come off as angry and irrational, rather than as a clash of both of them being dead-set on their respective approaches, and the big scene that should really have driven the point that he's only thinking of the next battle, the moment where he learns he just killed his father, he's just going, "No! I just killed my father!" And no one learns anything from it.

Rudolf is supposed to be what Alm would've become if not for his friends; particularly Celica. But the game fails to convey this. Alm doesn't learn, he's shown as foreign to Rudolf's way of thinking rather than realizing how they are a counterpoint. The point would have been delivered so much better if we had Alm introspect, and realize at these important moments where he and Rudolf were very similar, and where they differ.

These moments in the game that are supposed to convey the philosophy of each character, where it's right, and where it's wrong, often fail to show what they're trying to show, thanks to flaws in the writing for both the plot and the characters. And I think this is the biggest reason why Rudolf comes off as an idiot rather than a villain. Thanks to the flaws in these moments, Alm comes off as "supposedly perfect and special according to the game", Celica comes off as "an irrational idiot", Rudolf comes off as an "idiot with a flimsy plan", Mycen comes off as "the world's most flat ninja grandpa; appearing and disappearing anywhere when the plot calls for it and overall not really sounding like he cares about Alm at all", and Jedah comes off as "a moustache-twirling villain" rather than a religious fanatic resigned to Duma's madness and unable to conceive of a world without Duma (in other words, something of a counterpoint to Celica). 

As for appearance, the fact that SoV Rudolf further resembles Walhart should have helped convey the point that Rudolf is just as much a victim of Duma's philosophy taken to the extreme as every other major character in Rigel, if not more so. Walhart's big failing was that he could only see in terms of strength, conquest, and the next battle, just like Rudolf. But it doesn't, for those story reasons that I mentioned. 

[SoulWeaver]

4 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Even with Alm RNG blessed to hell an back, he can't solo Duma on his own. Not really, anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

Won't be a one round, and you'll definitely need physic being used on the regular.

My first playthrough disagrees - I hit Duma once, he swung back at me, I crit and killed him. One round of combat. The only other Unit who fought Duma was a Dread Fighter illusion summoned by Silque that did 0 damage to him. That Dread Fighter was basically a god, though - he went toe-to-toe with Duma for eight straight turns in addition to baiting several of the guards and dealing with one of them while I handled Jedah and the group to the left. Only got hit thrice, and only one of those was Duma himself. The real MVP of that battle.

Edited March 11, 2018 by SoulWeaver

[DragonFlames]

3 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

Not the whole chapter. But you get rid of the pesky magic users guarding him with other units, have enough Defense (I managed 33 using springs in echoes, no overclass or star jacinth) and he's pretty good as long as you attack Duma with the sword and not the bow. Won't be a one round, and you'll definitely need physic being used on the regular. I should know. I did it just to see. Mind you, you'd have to grind him to 20/20 and be RNG blessed. I only know because I went for a rematch after I'd fought Grima to see how much easier he was after all that. OG Gaiden on the other hand with the lesser growth rates, it's probably not as easy. I'll have to see if I can do it later.

 

2 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

 

My first playthrough disagrees - I hit Duma once, he swung back at me, I crit and killed him. One round of combat. The only other Unit who fought Duma was a Dread Fighter illusion summoned by Silque that did 0 damage to him.

I stand ever so mildly corrected, then. Not that I mind it too much. I'm always eager to learn new stuff!

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Schleimann said:

He also shares the name of a red nosed reindeer, so I don't think we can read too much into the name.

But he does also dress in red...

56 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

 

 

Ah; now the "But in their quest for power, the Rigelians had let their hearts grow cold and numb to all kindness" line over a picture of Rudolf finally makes sense to me...

Honestly, I think you're both right, but I think the problem had less to do with appearance, and more to do with the writing. One problem with SoV was that it had topics and things like these in mind, but then did a really bad job presenting them and conveying them to the player. This goes for almost all the main characters, and Rudolf and Alm are no exceptions.

After Rudolf's death, we find Mycen telling Alm about Rudolf's plan, in such a way that it conveys, "This is the only way it could've happened, now stop crying and fight Duma." And Alm just... takes it. I get that he's grieving, but he's blaming himself without taking anything from it. If they wanted to convey that Alm and Rudolf are counterpoints to each other, then Mycen's explanation should have been laced with Rudolf's viewpoint, and then Alm, after a moment to cry, should have called the old men out on their actions; slowly starting to disagree and saying that they're wrong; that Alm has only gotten as far as he has because of the people alongside him, and called him out on the fact that Rudolf's and Rigel's obsession with strength and the next battle left them blind to both compassion and to alternative actions. Alm should have called them out on the fact that their intentions were good, but their actions were horrible, and that he is not going to lead like that.

For a bonus, they should've also had Alm have a bit of self-reflection. It may have been Rudolf's plan, but he jumped right into it; thinking only of the next battle; a flaw shared by both father and son, and, as you (Jotari) have in your signature, was supposed to be Alm's flaw in Echoes. But he never gets called out on it; Celica just yells at him in the reunion scene in a way that makes her come off as angry and irrational, rather than as a clash of both of them being dead-set on their respective approaches, and the big scene that should really have driven the point that he's only thinking of the next battle, the moment where he learns he just killed his father, he's just going, "No! I just killed my father!" And no one learns anything from it.

Rudolf is supposed to be what Alm would've become if not for his friends; particularly Celica. But the game fails to convey this. Alm doesn't learn, he's shown as foreign to Rudolf's way of thinking rather than realizing how they are a counterpoint. The point would have been delivered so much better if we had Alm introspect, and realize at these important moments where he and Rudolf were very similar, and where they differ.

These moments in the game that are supposed to convey the philosophy of each character, where it's right, and where it's wrong, often fail to show what they're trying to show, thanks to flaws in the writing for both the plot and the characters. And I think this is the biggest reason why Rudolf comes off as an idiot rather than a villain. Thanks to the flaws in these moments, Alm comes off as "supposedly perfect and special according to the game", Celica comes off as "an irrational idiot", Rudolf comes off as an "idiot with a flimsy plan", Mycen comes off as "the world's most flat ninja grandpa; appearing and disappearing anywhere when the plot calls for it and overall not really sounding like he cares about Alm at all", and Jedah comes off as "a moustache-twirling villain" rather than a religious fanatic resigned to Duma's madness and unable to conceive of a world without Duma (in other words, something of a counterpoint to Celica). 

As for appearance, the fact that SoV Rudolf further resembles Walhart should have helped convey the point that Rudolf is just as much a victim of Duma's philosophy taken to the extreme as every other major character in Rigel, if not more so. Walhart's big failing was that he could only see in terms of strength, conquest, and the next battle, just like Rudolf. But it doesn't, for those story reasons that I mentioned. 

I think part of this is due to staying too loyal to the original text (something I consider a bit of a failing if Echoes). As people arguing in favour of new Alm point out, all if the text from the original Gaiden made it into the game. But the addition of more text means we need things to be more spelled out. When the game had only a few thousand words, Alm saying to Mycen "How could an evil man like Rudolf be my father?" was enough to convey Alm's perspective. But with Alm getting more text and the story being less minamilistic, we need more from Alm to understand his feelings. In the larger story we need scenes like you mentioned because we expect more than one or two lines to establish things.

42 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

 

My first playthrough disagrees - I hit Duma once, he swung back at me, I crit and killed him. One round of combat. The only other Unit who fought Duma was a Dread Fighter illusion summoned by Silque that did 0 damage to him. That Dread Fighter was basically a god, though - he went toe-to-toe with Duma for eight straight turns in addition to baiting several of the guards and dealing with one of them while I handled Jedah and the group to the left. Only got hit thrice, and only one of those was Duma himself. The real MVP of that battle.

Echoes or Gaiden?

[SoulWeaver]

56 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Echoes or Gaiden?

Echoes, Silque isn't in Gaiden is she? Less impressive, I know, but still, I thought it was pretty cool.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, SoulWeaver said:

Echoes, Silque isn't in Gaiden is she? Less impressive, I know, but still, I thought it was pretty cool.

Yes, Silque is in Gaiden. The only playable characters from Echoes not in Gaiden are Faye, Conrad and the Cipher Characters.

[Darros]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

But style is substance, how a character looks does affect the audience's perception of them. And Rudolf's appearance makes people think "Man, that guy was an idiot who got a shit tonne of people killed with his good intentions," as opposed to what I believe was the intended reaction "wow, so his intentions were sort of noble, but he went about them in the most heartless and inconsiderate way possible."

Maybe fundamentally this is the point. Evil people who come across as genuine and kind are perhaps the scariest evil people of them all. Charisma is very powerful.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Darros said:

Maybe fundamentally this is the point. Evil people who come across as genuine and kind are perhaps the scariest evil people of them all. Charisma is very powerful.

Perhaps, but if that's the case, judging by the audience's reaction to him, I don't think they really succeeded in that regard. For Rudolf to be that sort of villian, I think he'd need a bit more screen time.

[Guest Dreamyboi]

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 

 

Ah; now the "But in their quest for power, the Rigelians had let their hearts grow cold and numb to all kindness" line over a picture of Rudolf finally makes sense to me...

Honestly, I think you're both right, but I think the problem had less to do with appearance, and more to do with the writing. One problem with SoV was that it had topics and things like these in mind, but then did a really bad job presenting them and conveying them to the player. This goes for almost all the main characters, and Rudolf and Alm are no exceptions.

After Rudolf's death, we find Mycen telling Alm about Rudolf's plan, in such a way that it conveys, "This is the only way it could've happened, now stop crying and fight Duma." And Alm just... takes it. I get that he's grieving, but he's blaming himself without taking anything from it. If they wanted to convey that Alm and Rudolf are counterpoints to each other, then Mycen's explanation should have been laced with Rudolf's viewpoint, and then Alm, after a moment to cry, should have called the old men out on their actions; slowly starting to disagree and saying that they're wrong; that Alm has only gotten as far as he has because of the people alongside him, and called him out on the fact that Rudolf's and Rigel's obsession with strength and the next battle left them blind to both compassion and to alternative actions. Alm should have called them out on the fact that their intentions were good, but their actions were horrible, and that he is not going to lead like that.

For a bonus, they should've also had Alm have a bit of self-reflection. It may have been Rudolf's plan, but he jumped right into it; thinking only of the next battle; a flaw shared by both father and son, and, as you (Jotari) have in your signature, was supposed to be Alm's flaw in Echoes. But he never gets called out on it; Celica just yells at him in the reunion scene in a way that makes her come off as angry and irrational, rather than as a clash of both of them being dead-set on their respective approaches, and the big scene that should really have driven the point that he's only thinking of the next battle, the moment where he learns he just killed his father, he's just going, "No! I just killed my father!" And no one learns anything from it.

Rudolf is supposed to be what Alm would've become if not for his friends; particularly Celica. But the game fails to convey this. Alm doesn't learn, he's shown as foreign to Rudolf's way of thinking rather than realizing how they are a counterpoint. The point would have been delivered so much better if we had Alm introspect, and realize at these important moments where he and Rudolf were very similar, and where they differ.

These moments in the game that are supposed to convey the philosophy of each character, where it's right, and where it's wrong, often fail to show what they're trying to show, thanks to flaws in the writing for both the plot and the characters. And I think this is the biggest reason why Rudolf comes off as an idiot rather than a villain. Thanks to the flaws in these moments, Alm comes off as "supposedly perfect and special according to the game", Celica comes off as "an irrational idiot", Rudolf comes off as an "idiot with a flimsy plan", Mycen comes off as "the world's most flat ninja grandpa; appearing and disappearing anywhere when the plot calls for it and overall not really sounding like he cares about Alm at all", and Jedah comes off as "a moustache-twirling villain" rather than a religious fanatic resigned to Duma's madness and unable to conceive of a world without Duma (in other words, something of a counterpoint to Celica). 

As for appearance, the fact that SoV Rudolf further resembles Walhart should have helped convey the point that Rudolf is just as much a victim of Duma's philosophy taken to the extreme as every other major character in Rigel, if not more so. Walhart's big failing was that he could only see in terms of strength, conquest, and the next battle, just like Rudolf. But it doesn't, for those story reasons that I mentioned. 

All this plus complaints with the gameplay are why I still have mixed feelings on this game.

Missed opportunities everywhere.

[NekoKnight]

I think @vanguard333 hits the nail on the head. Rudolf in SoV is never portrayed as a villain, rather a well intensioned extremist who ultimately did what was best for Alm and the continent. Mycen, a character we are meant to sympathize with, endorses of the plan, and while Alm gets mad at Mycen for being manipulated into killing his own father, what he is most upset about (and quickly gets over) is his relationship with Mycen falling apart. Alm has nothing to say about Rudolf's plan.  When Alm arrives at Rigel castle, even before learning the truth about Rudolf, he says that he can't hate him, despite all he has done.

Even if we are to conclude that Rudolf is supposes to be a bad guy, I can't agree with his plan not needing to have a reasonable chance to succeed. By all rights, Zofia should have been stomped into the dirt by Rigel and Alm would likely have died on the battlefield. This would have little to say about "the strength of humanity". The only thing Alm has going for him is the prophesy and it would be lazy writing to say "Rudolf was banking on Alm's mythic rare plot armor, so it was a good plan".

People make plans in the hope that they work. I don't think Rudolf can have any faith in his plan working unless he can see into the future. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by NekoKnight

[The Roger The Paladin]

18 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

 

My first playthrough disagrees - I hit Duma once, he swung back at me, I crit and killed him. One round of combat. The only other Unit who fought Duma was a Dread Fighter illusion summoned by Silque that did 0 damage to him. That Dread Fighter was basically a god, though - he went toe-to-toe with Duma for eight straight turns in addition to baiting several of the guards and dealing with one of them while I handled Jedah and the group to the left. Only got hit thrice, and only one of those was Duma himself. The real MVP of that battle.

Well.... I stand corrected. I've done the fight a few times and never got that lucky. But definitely an interesting story.

[SoulWeaver]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, Silque is in Gaiden. The only playable characters from Echoes not in Gaiden are Faye, Conrad and the Cipher Characters.

Ah, that's awkward. Good to know, though.

3 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

Well.... I stand corrected. I've done the fight a few times and never got that lucky. But definitely an interesting story.

Sad part is most people don't believe me and think I'm just making it up to sound cool. Ah, well, that's life.

[Punished Dayni]

23 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

My first playthrough disagrees - I hit Duma once, he swung back at me, I crit and killed him. One round of combat. The only other Unit who fought Duma was a Dread Fighter illusion summoned by Silque that did 0 damage to him. That Dread Fighter was basically a god, though - he went toe-to-toe with Duma for eight straight turns in addition to baiting several of the guards and dealing with one of them while I handled Jedah and the group to the left. Only got hit thrice, and only one of those was Duma himself. The real MVP of that battle.

How did you get that much damage in?

I had to get Alm to crit twice in a round to kill Duma, and that was after he'd been reduced to 78 HP (Took me by surprise when it happened). It was Hard mode, but still.

[vanguard333]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎11 at 6:19 PM, Dreamyboi said:

All this plus complaints with the gameplay are why I still have mixed feelings on this game.

Missed opportunities everywhere.

Yeah. Compared to Path of Radiance, for example, I have gone back and played Path of Radiance far more often than SoV, and one reason is as I mentioned. Path of Radiance and SoV have mostly different, yet similarly strong themes and ideas. The difference is, Path of Radiance actually got those ideas across effectively and conveyed them well.

For just one example, look how Path of Radiance handled the topic of nobility V.S peasantry and classism, then look how SoV handled the exact same topic. There's a lot I could say, but I won't since the thread is about Rudolf (though I'll be getting to him in a moment), so I'll try to sum it up quickly. Path of Radiance offered different perspectives on the issue, and each one was shown well to the audience. Whereas, for SoV, well... I just have to say the name Fernand to sum it up, don't I? Which is a shame, since I though Fernand was better-handled than most people say he was. Then, both Alm and Ike were portrayed as having the perspective of all are equal, and all should be treated equally. The difference is: everything Ike said wasn't undercut by a secretly-royalty reveal or by people saying, "There's something about you that always made you so special, and I was always envious of that".

For an example that goes back to the topic, compare Emperor Rudolf with Mad King Ashnard. Both have the mindset of strength being everything. Both have continent-spanning insane plans involving triggering war to bring about their endgame; and both plans are built upon that strength is everything mentality, and both brought about horrifying events to achieve their goals. It's not a perfect comparison, as Ashnard is a mad villain where Rudolf is supposed to be more of a sympathetic villain like Sephiran. But still; no one is saying, "If Ashnard's motives (ending feudalism and bringing about a Darwinist world) are just that, then why is his plan so stupid?" And the game definitely portrays Ashnard as a villain.

Furthermore, I would argue that PoR does a better job conveying Ashnard's sense of Strength is Everything than SoV does for Rudolf. With Rudolf; you more or less are just apparently supposed to assume: "He's Rigelian, therefore he's a Social Darwinist" and doesn't really show just how caught up in the mentality he is. With Ashnard, on the other hand, we learn of his "twisted games" around chapter 8, and later we learn that he was far from the royal line before being king, but was famous on the battlefield. More than that, but Sothe mentions in a base conversation that Ashnard didn't seem like a bad king, as he opened up the title of knighthood to anyone strong enough; offering city-born peasants a way to escape the slums. Remind me, did any non-Camus Rigelian ever say anything about their opinion of Rudolf? More to the point, before confronting him, does the audience ever learn anything about Rudolf as a character other than Emperor of Rigel and acts like a father to his men?

Also, in regards to appearances, Jotari definitely has a point when you make the comparison. Take a look at Ashnard:

Spoiler

The way the eyebrows are lowered and the eyes stare right at you (bad description I know): the look of a man thinking, "Put them all to the sword! Stab them All! Burn them All!" (if you'll pardon the brief GoT allusion). He is obviously a villain. He is obviously a man seeming dignified at first with his armour and his royal cape, but it is clear his mind is full of madness.

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah. Compared to Path of Radiance, for example, I have gone back and played Path of Radiance far more often than SoV, and one reason is as I mentioned. Path of Radiance and SoV have mostly different, yet similarly strong themes and ideas. The difference is, Path of Radiance actually got those ideas across effectively and conveyed them well.

For just one example, look how Path of Radiance handled the topic of nobility V.S peasantry and classism, then look how SoV handled the exact same topic. There's a lot I could say, but I won't since the thread is about Rudolf (though I'll be getting to him in a moment), so I'll try to sum it up quickly. Path of Radiance offered different perspectives on the issue, and each one was shown well to the audience. Whereas, for SoV, well... I just have to say the name Fernand to sum it up, don't I? Which is a shame, since I though Fernand was better-handled than most people say he was. Then, both Alm and Ike were portrayed as having the perspective of all are equal, and all should be treated equally. The difference is: everything Ike said wasn't undercut by a secretly-royalty reveal or by people saying, "There's something about you that always made you so special, and I was always envious of that".

For an example that goes back to the topic, compare Emperor Rudolf with Mad King Ashnard. Both have the mindset of strength being everything. Both have continent-spanning insane plans involving triggering war to bring about their endgame; and both plans are built upon that strength is everything mentality, and both brought about horrifying events to achieve their goals. It's not a perfect comparison, as Ashnard is a mad villain where Rudolf is supposed to be more of a sympathetic villain like Sephiran. But still; no one is saying, "If Ashnard's motives (ending feudalism and bringing about a Darwinist world) are just that, then why is his plan so stupid?" And the game definitely portrays Ashnard as a villain.

Furthermore, I would argue that PoR does a better job conveying Ashnard's sense of Strength is Everything than SoV does for Rudolf. With Rudolf; you more or less are just apparently supposed to assume: "He's Rigelian, therefore he's a Social Darwinist" and doesn't really show just how caught up in the mentality he is. With Ashnard, on the other hand, we learn of his "twisted games" around chapter 8, and later we learn that he was far from the royal line before being king, but was famous on the battlefield. More than that, but Sothe mentions in a base conversation that Ashnard didn't seem like a bad king, as he opened up the title of knighthood to anyone strong enough; offering city-born peasants a way to escape the slums. Remind me, did any non-Camus Rigelian ever say anything about their opinion of Rudolf? More to the point, before confronting him, does the audience ever learn anything about Rudolf as a character other than Emperor of Rigel and acts like a father to his men?

Also, in regards to appearances, Jotari definitely has a point when you make the comparison. Take a look at Ashnard:

  Hide contents

The way the eyebrows are lowered and the eyes stare right at you (bad description I know): the look of a man thinking, "Put them all to the sword! Stab them All! Burn them All!" (if you'll pardon the brief GoT allusion). He is obviously a villain. He is obviously a man seeming dignified at first with his armour and his royal cape, but it is clear his mind is full of madness.

Also, you know, he has a shit tonne of spikes on his armour. I'm pretty sure Jagen is like the only person in existence that can pull of spikes on the armour without being a villian. And you're brief mention of Camus is another example where it worked for Gaiden, but not for Echoes. He very much does display Rudolf's personality in his loyalty and the mere fact that he's become such a high ranking general in such a short time. In Gaiden, that's defining information, but in Echoes, it's just lost amongst a sea of other information.

[Guest Dreamyboi]

29 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah. Compared to Path of Radiance, for example, I have gone back and played Path of Radiance far more often than SoV, and one reason is as I mentioned. Path of Radiance and SoV have mostly different, yet similarly strong themes and ideas. The difference is, Path of Radiance actually got those ideas across effectively and conveyed them well.

For just one example, look how Path of Radiance handled the topic of nobility V.S peasantry and classism, then look how SoV handled the exact same topic. There's a lot I could say, but I won't since the thread is about Rudolf (though I'll be getting to him in a moment), so I'll try to sum it up quickly. Path of Radiance offered different perspectives on the issue, and each one was shown well to the audience. Whereas, for SoV, well... I just have to say the name Fernand to sum it up, don't I? Which is a shame, since I though Fernand was better-handled than most people say he was. Then, both Alm and Ike were portrayed as having the perspective of all are equal, and all should be treated equally. The difference is: everything Ike said wasn't undercut by a secretly-royalty reveal or by people saying, "There's something about you that always made you so special, and I was always envious of that".

For an example that goes back to the topic, compare Emperor Rudolf with Mad King Ashnard. Both have the mindset of strength being everything. Both have continent-spanning insane plans involving triggering war to bring about their endgame; and both plans are built upon that strength is everything mentality, and both brought about horrifying events to achieve their goals. It's not a perfect comparison, as Ashnard is a mad villain where Rudolf is supposed to be more of a sympathetic villain like Sephiran. But still; no one is saying, "If Ashnard's motives (ending feudalism and bringing about a Darwinist world) are just that, then why is his plan so stupid?" And the game definitely portrays Ashnard as a villain.

Furthermore, I would argue that PoR does a better job conveying Ashnard's sense of Strength is Everything than SoV does for Rudolf. With Rudolf; you more or less are just apparently supposed to assume: "He's Rigelian, therefore he's a Social Darwinist" and doesn't really show just how caught up in the mentality he is. With Ashnard, on the other hand, we learn of his "twisted games" around chapter 8, and later we learn that he was far from the royal line before being king, but was famous on the battlefield. More than that, but Sothe mentions in a base conversation that Ashnard didn't seem like a bad king, as he opened up the title of knighthood to anyone strong enough; offering city-born peasants a way to escape the slums. Remind me, did any non-Camus Rigelian ever say anything about their opinion of Rudolf? More to the point, before confronting him, does the audience ever learn anything about Rudolf as a character other than Emperor of Rigel and acts like a father to his men?

Also, in regards to appearances, Jotari definitely has a point when you make the comparison. Take a look at Ashnard:

  Hide contents

The way the eyebrows are lowered and the eyes stare right at you (bad description I know): the look of a man thinking, "Put them all to the sword! Stab them All! Burn them All!" (if you'll pardon the brief GoT allusion). He is obviously a villain. He is obviously a man seeming dignified at first with his armour and his royal cape, but it is clear his mind is full of madness.

I'm in full agreement with you on basically everything here (I really need to finish this game) and it makes me hope for a Path of Radiance remake that'll fix some of it's own story/gameplay issues even though Echoes has shown us that they probably wont think that far ahead. I especially agree with the Fernand bit since he's the game's best antagonist and one of my favorite thus far (for perspective I've played Awakening, Fates, Echoes and bits of PoR and so far PoR is my favorite) and it sucks that the majority of his character is locked behind three DLC maps.

Honestly if Echoes had better worldbuilding, theme exploration and better explanations of the situation beyond "people are suffering because x" then the story would have been far better.

That's something recent FE games have been struggling with I hear and it makes me a little anxious about FE Switch.

Honestly this is one of many areas where, instead of sticking to the source material, they should have tried to improve upon it. I don't really think IntSys' writers knows how to do that.

[vanguard333]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Also, you know, he has a shit tonne of spikes on his armour. I'm pretty sure Jagen is like the only person in existence that can pull of spikes on the armour without being a villian. And you're brief mention of Camus is another example where it worked for Gaiden, but not for Echoes. He very much does display Rudolf's personality in his loyalty and the mere fact that he's become such a high ranking general in such a short time. In Gaiden, that's defining information, but in Echoes, it's just lost amongst a sea of other information.

For the spikes on the armour thing, spiked armour is really common in fantasy, and you really stop noticing the spikes when you get a good look at the eyes (the artist did a really good job conveying sheer madness there, and it is scary). I ignored the spikes mainly to be brief and to put more focus on the face, which you mainly focused on for your picture comparison for Rudolf. 

 

8 minutes ago, Dreamyboi said:

I'm in full agreement with you on basically everything here (I really need to finish this game) and it makes me hope for a Path of Radiance remake that'll fix some of it's own story/gameplay issues even though Echoes has shown us that they probably wont think that far ahead. I especially agree with the Fernand bit since he's the game's best antagonist and one of my favorite thus far (for perspective I've played Awakening, Fates, Echoes and bits of PoR and so far PoR is my favorite) and it sucks that the majority of his character is locked behind three DLC maps.

Finish PoR; it's good (if that wasn't obvious by me listing it as my favourite FE game).

 

8 minutes ago, Dreamyboi said:

Honestly if Echoes had better worldbuilding, theme exploration and better explanations of the situation beyond "people are suffering because x" then the story would have been far better.

That's something recent FE games have been struggling with I hear and it makes me a little anxious about FE Switch.

Honestly this is one of many areas where, instead of sticking to the source material, they should have tried to improve upon it. I don't really think IntSys' writers knows how to do that.

I hear you. Those are things they definitely needed to work on.

I agree about FE Switch. Hopefully, Intelligent Systems has learned from SoV. 

[SoulWeaver]

5 hours ago, Dayni said:

How did you get that much damage in?

I had to get Alm to crit twice in a round to kill Duma, and that was after he'd been reduced to 78 HP (Took me by surprise when it happened). It was Hard mode, but still.

I have no idea, I just played through like I normally do with Fire Emblem games and Alm randomly obliterated Duma. I went back and tried another playthrough afterwords doing almost exactly the same stuff and had a much harder time for some reason - even going to Normal I still had to two-round him. The only major thing I can remember changing the second time is that I saved every single Sacred Spring and Stat Booster for Palla instead of passing them out in a more random fashion, but that can't have made that big of a difference, right?

Basically the real lesson we can all pull from this is that Random Dread Fighter Illusion(who I will call Yoshi because why not) = on-par with Duma.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I agree about FE Switch. Hopefully, Intelligent Systems has learned from SoV. 

I don't want to sound cynical, but knowing them, they'll learn all the wrong things.

[Guest Dreamyboi]

27 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

For the spikes on the armour thing, spiked armour is really common in fantasy, and you really stop noticing the spikes when you get a good look at the eyes (the artist did a really good job conveying sheer madness there, and it is scary). I ignored the spikes mainly to be brief and to put more focus on the face, which you mainly focused on for your picture comparison for Rudolf. 

 

Finish PoR; it's good (if that wasn't obvious by me listing it as my favourite FE game).

 

I hear you. Those are things they definitely needed to work on.

I agree about FE Switch. Hopefully, Intelligent Systems has learned from SoV. 

Thing is even if they haven't, as I've said multiple times in the past while dying of old age waiting for news on the game, there's still no reason for it to be bad.

Spoiler

 

Awakening was trying to be a compilation of sorts because it was planned to be the last game in the series and wanted to shove in as much of past FE as possible, what ended up happening was we got a story that told three different short stories and failed to flesh out any one of them while trying to build off the already established world of Archanea/Valentia and ignoring continuity as a result.

Fates tried to replicate what made Awakening successful by shoehorning in avatar, marriage and children, sexual fanservice, and quirky/zany characters while telling a more complex story, it went completely overboard in every one of these aspects and the story especially suffered from the ambitious yet careless attempt. We already know how THAT ended.

Then we have Echoes which, while not a bad plot like Awakening and Fates, still suffers from it's lack of initiative (is that the right word?) and doesn't attempt to fix things that should be fixed like map design and certain plot points in the original Gaiden. The things it chooses to add are hit and miss and the things it leaves alone are also hit and miss. As a result you have a game Fire Emblem veterans praise for not being a """poorly written waifu simulator""" and for having better plot than the last two games, but then realizing that there are still obvious issues with the storytelling and being better than rock bottom isn't exactly good. 

Fire Emblem Switch doesn't suffer from any of this so I'm both exited to see what they'll do better and terrified of what they might fuck up.

But all of this is off topic so let's just cover it up and get back on track.

 

For the sake of getting back on topic (I ramble a lot), one of my complaints with this game before reading all this was Rudolf's lack of screentime. I think if we had more exposure to him and the people under him he would have been better executed really.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Dreamyboi