Smash 5 mechanics discussion/wishlist

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Thought we could use a general thread to discuss Smash mechanics we want in the new game. What we want to see return, what needs to be tweaked, maybe some ideas for new mechanics.

Returning mechanics

Spoiler

-Make it so shielding opponents slip off ledges again when shielding. This was removed after Brawl. I know these combos look intimidating, but they are highly situational and shielding is frankly too safe on platforms in Smash Bros. Also related: design characters with more locking and edge slipping moves in mind. I notice the Smash 4 newcomers and DLC characters almost uniformly have the worst options for those sorts of combos, while the veterans have the best and most varied options. This leads me to believe it was something the designers forgot about when designing the game - with the exception of making lock combos limited to three hits.

Tweaked mechanics

Spoiler

 

-Ledges could use some work. Reducing ledge snap windows and sizes will make certain recoveries less arbitrarily safe. Furthermore, ledge options feel too safe. Besides Ledge roll, the other three choices only grant you a maximum of 3 frames of vulnerability before you can act. In general I want people having just grabbed the ledge to not feel like they've just re-entered neutral. Ledge trumping is okay. Better than the old system that allowed for stalling/planking but that could have been tweaked as well. The gist of it is that I like that Smash 4's ledges have become less safe and more mind game focused, but they could stand to go a bit further if it means we can close out stocks more easily.

-Rage I think would be a lot better if it scaled at three "tiers" rather than point for point. Tier 1 rage at 50% damage, Tier 2 at 100% and Tier 3 at 150%. With the way it is now, you can really get screwed out of combo strings by miscalculating the opponent's percent versus your own. Between DI and move staling we've got enough to worry about. Speaking of...

-DI. Either return to the old perpendicular system or commit to the multi-directional system. The Smash 4 version that was updated in patches sort of combined the two and very barely affects vertical KO percents. As a result, the vast majority of the most threatening kill setups and moves are vertical. There's no ledge play or edge guarding when you kill somebody off the top, just throw > Up Air. Boring.

-Dodge rolls. I understand roll spamis rampant online. And I don't expect more stable online will fix that. So how about each dodge roll starts a one second long cooldown period before you can roll again? Maybe do the same for air dodges. Should cut out the spam I think. Plus air dodges could stand to be taken down another peg.

 

 

[Lord_Brand]

I think Shield Specials should become a thing. We have Shield + Attack for grabs, what if every character had a Counter they could use by pressing Shield + Special, or at least appropriate counterparts like Fox's Reflector, Ness' PSI Magnet, and so forth? Then DSpecials can be filled by new moves. Maybe Fox can place a Land Mine Solid Snake style.

I also had the idea of mounts for Fire Emblem Cavaliers, Pegasus Knights, and Wyvern Riders. You summon the mount with a special and ride on it, increasing your weight and fighting ability, not to mention the ability to perform a unique taunt (so, pretty similar to Wario's Bike, but less flimsy). However, if the mount takes too much damage or gets knocked out, it will be dismissed, requiring recovery time before you can call it again.

Because I personally hope for Shantae to join the roster, I would suggest she get a more limited form of transformation where she can transform into a Monkey, Elephant, or Harpy with simplified movesets (as in, the ability to jump and one or two attack moves mapped to the attack and special buttons).

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Saw this video in my feed and it's basically the same topic as this thread:

List of things they want, and my thoughts:

• Rage: I think most players are in agreement that something has to be done about rage. They offer a potential solution of making it affect damage instead of knockback. But since Damage is the primary variable in the knockback formula, it would still affect knockback indirectly if that were the case. 
• Untechable scenarios. Inconsistent mechanics are an annoyance. Though I do think it's hard to argue that players should be able to tech everything all the time. Smash 4 characters have a tendency to live for a very long time. As long as untechable scenarios are consistent and not dependent on RNG or improper stage architecture, I'd be fine with it here or there.
• Training Mode: Training mode could use a few more tools, such as toggling on and off rage and move-staling. As for the combo counter, it's meant to communicate hitstun and nothing else. So interactions like a edge slip or footstools not registering as a "combo" make sense. Every scenario in which the combo counter makes an explicit error has to do with hitstun cancelling, and I'd sooner request a removal of that dumb mechanic. Requests like visualized hitboxes/hurtboxes, AI scripts, and a frame by frame mode are pretty hefty requests, but not something unseen in other fighting games.
• Increased variety with Omega Stages: Another common request. Though this would make it even harder for tournament rules to decide on legal stage sets. Smash 4 has enough perfectly legal stages as is, but omega stage variety wouldn't go unappreciated by competitive or casual players.
• 2 frame ledge punish: see, I'm hesitant to ask for this to be removed because ledges are so incredibly safe as is in Smash 4. I'd like edgeguarding to be a more rewarding decision and this bug helps with that. 
• C-stick neutral inputs: probably the most obscure part of the list. I feel like the ability to perform neutral attacks with diagonal inputs ought to be removed. More often than not, said inputs are purely unintended by the player.
• Footstools: Agreed on mapping footstools to another button, but I don't see that happening as Smash Bros. already makes use of all buttons on most controller configurations.
• Better online: Pretty standard, especially since we will have to pay to play Smash 5 online possibly as early as launch day.
• control settings: Would definitely appreciate it if you could access these settings without leaving the Versus mode. 
• Patch Notes: I was on the team that manually tested changes with each patch and it was dreadful. At the risk of my fifteen minutes of fame, please give us patch notes in the future. ARMS and both Splatoon games were given explicit patch notes as far as I know, so there's hope for Smash 5. 

[Jotari]

New Things

Spoiler

 

*The thing I want most is something I've wanted for a while. Air Specials. The likes of Link and Seamus outright have an extra attack over every other character in the game and I see no good reason as to why that should be. There's a button that's currently doing nothing for some characters while doing something for others. Give every character an attack that's a bit more flashy than a normal attack, but not quite on par with a special move. It could also serve as a way to initiate Peach's float or flying for the flying characters (also bring back flying).

*Recoveries don't induce a helpless state when used on the ground. This could open up a whole host of new combos while also making certain moves just much more viable as they don't come with the added risk of accidentally suiciding near the edge.

*General stuff I've mentioned before: Update the alternate specials of veteran characters so they're unique like Palutena. Remove the idea of a default special. Don't make unlocking specials a requirement. Separate alternate specials from custom equipment. Change the custom equipment back to stickers.

 

 

Tweaks

Spoiler

*Reduce Shield recovery rate. Shielding is really good in Smash 4, and I like that. But I find that there's little to no draw back from spamming it, aside from being predictable (and thus encouraging you opponent to grab). It seems like the recovery rate is near instant and actually breaking your opponents shield essentially never happens.

*Multiple character entrances. It's a small thing that adds nothing to gameplay, but I think it would add a lot more flavor to the game.

*I liked Melees single, much longer lasting, air dodge that put you in a helpless state. It's much harder to punish for using less skillfully, but much easier to punish for using less wisely. I wouldn't want it to replace the infinite use air dodge per second, but I wonder if it would be possible to have both. Maybe by using one for L and the other for R, or perhaps by holding as opposed to tapping the shield button.

*Borderline new idea, but Final Smashes need to be tied to a new system instead of just the Smash Ball. Probably something akin to the KO Punch and Limit Break. Because the random and unreliable appearance rate of Smash Balls just makes Final Smashes, a very cool part of the game, wasted at high level play.

 

[Jedi]

Remove Rage entirely and make the game more offensively inclined, by weakening defensive options.

[Comet]

give better movement options so there can be an interesting neutral game

[The_antithesis]

I'd like to see a sort of "ledge crash" whenever two people try to grab the same ledge at the same time. In this situation, both players would take damage and fall a short distance, before being forced to recover again with no ledge invincibility. This can be repeated, so it would continue until either someone recovers to the stage (which makes for exciting plays in the corner) or someone gets spiked to their death, which is always hype!

Another mechanic I'd like to see is a way for characters to earn the final smash outside of the smash ball. Cloud's limit break is a good example of this done right. This could also be used as a balance mechanic. For example, Ganon (a low tier) would be able to use the triforce of power to earn his final smash more often than a more potent character, like Bayonetta.

[Jedi]

1 hour ago, The_antithesis said:

Another mechanic I'd like to see is a way for characters to earn the final smash outside of the smash ball. Cloud's limit break is a good example of this done right. This could also be used as a balance mechanic. For example, Ganon (a low tier) would be able to use the triforce of power to earn his final smash more often than a more potent character, like Bayonetta.

Theres no way this would be balanced properly, the balance teams, people who make the game itself, compeitive players and other people highly disagree on whos good or not

To further prove this, Sakurai's team was confident that regular Samus was the strongest character near launch at the Invitational, and those who know how Samus was at launch, know thats not the case whatsoever.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, The_antithesis said:

I'd like to see a sort of "ledge crash" whenever two people try to grab the same ledge at the same time. In this situation, both players would take damage and fall a short distance, before being forced to recover again with no ledge invincibility. This can be repeated, so it would continue until either someone recovers to the stage (which makes for exciting plays in the corner) or someone gets spiked to their death, which is always hype!

Another mechanic I'd like to see is a way for characters to earn the final smash outside of the smash ball. Cloud's limit break is a good example of this done right. This could also be used as a balance mechanic. For example, Ganon (a low tier) would be able to use the triforce of power to earn his final smash more often than a more potent character, like Bayonetta.

Professional Smash also only applies to a vrey restrictive mode of play, that is to say 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 limited stages. The developers need to ensure the game remains reasonably balanced in all areas, four way free for all, items, event matches, classic, all star etc. Just because Ganondorf has a hard time beating a human Sheik, doesn't mean he's not the best choice for something like boss battles or home run contest. I can see, however, them making it so you get a Final Smash by tanking damage and not getting KO'd (maybe a bar that fills up at 200% damage taken, with a 50% penalty every time you're KO'd, adjustable in the settings to the player's preference, to the extent that it could be disabled entirely), that would in general buff heavy weights, who tend to be in the bottom rungs ot tier lists, without making a case by case decision for every character in the game.

[Lord_Brand]

As an evolution of boss fights like Ridley and Yellow Devil from Smash 4, I'd like if Smash 5 featured "pinata bosses" that drop a bunch of items when defeated, kinda like Party Balls but much bigger and crankier. Hinox in a BotW stage would be an excellent example, and in fact is where I got the idea from. Other examples include Dynablade, Octavio, Mecha Dragon, and Behemoth. This way, instead of racing to see who defeats the bosses first, players work together to bring them down, then scramble to grab as many items as possible once the boss is defeated.