Who Should Be a Future Legendary?

[bottlegnomes]

@Lewyn Rinea would add even less awareness because she's a less important character from a newer game. I fail to see how she's a better addition than Grima other  than satisfying your desire for new units. Medeus might've added more, but his draw is significantly less and unless he was meta-defining on the level of Reinhardt (AKA incredibly unlikely), he wouldn't have gained as much popularity as Rein.

Speaking of Rein, people keep pointing to him as an example of Heroes making a character popular, but how many characters of his notoriety--very little--have been added (1) and how many have achieved his level of fame (2)? The answer to 1 is a lot, and the answer to 2 is 3ish, him, Wrys, and Bartre. That's not actually good odds for unknown characters gaining fame from Heroes as two are jokes and one is an exception in terms of FEH power based on story power, Reinhardt being one of the strongest bosses in the series.

You've also yet to actually refute my selfishness argument of alts, but at this point I'm harping because I'm petty.

Edited March 28, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Sproutling]

4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

However 56 characters of the top 100 in CYL round 2 were not from Awakening/Fates despite how old the other games are.

I wouldn't say that CYL 2 is a very good indicator of overall popularity, if I'm being honest. I think the second time around, people were a lot more likely to vote for characters that still hadn't made it into Heroes rather than dumping all of their votes into their actual favorites like last time.

[Arthur97]

7 minutes ago, Sproutling said:

I wouldn't say that CYL 2 is a very good indicator of overall popularity, if I'm being honest. I think the second time around, people were a lot more likely to vote for characters that still hadn't made it into Heroes rather than dumping all of their votes into their actual favorites like last time.

Lief being in the top ten males seems to support that as well as Tharja doing so relatively poor.

Also that information could be taken as 44 of the top 100 came from 2 games.

[Tybrosion]

13 minutes ago, Sproutling said:

I wouldn't say that CYL 2 is a very good indicator of overall popularity, if I'm being honest. I think the second time around, people were a lot more likely to vote for characters that still hadn't made it into Heroes rather than dumping all of their votes into their actual favorites like last time.

I agree, given that a lot of characters who were already in FEH at the time had notable drop-offs in their vote totals compared to the first time, mostly the ones who aren't particularly outstanding in any way or are among the least usable heroes in the game (like Merric, Matthew, Virion, Saizo, Odin, etc.).

Edited March 28, 2018 by Tybrosion

[Lewyn]

35 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Lief being in the top ten males seems to support that as well as Tharja doing so relatively poor.

Also that information could be taken as 44 of the top 100 came from 2 games.

Sure, but you act like that is some sort of accomplishment.  Considering Radiant dawn is the last game before Awakening and that came in 2007, all the games besides Awakening/Fates are super old.  In addition it is impressive how many characters from old games that were Japan only got on the list.  

The point about Reinhardt is that a powerful unique character spreads awareness about that character's game.  Fallen Robin got a lot of hype cause of his attack stat, being an armor dragon and coming with ward dragons.  What if that was some new character from an old game?  Or Winter Tharja has become a meta staple, what if that christmas unit was from an old game?  

Edit: It ended up being who everyone expected.  How disappointing, same legendary weapon, and the debut of colorless dragon is girl Robin.  Lame. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Lewyn

[Arthur97]

5 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Sure, but you act like that is some sort of accomplishment.  Considering Radiant dawn is the last game before Awakening and that came in 2007, all the games besides Awakening/Fates are super old.  In addition it is impressive how many characters from old games that were Japan only got on the list.  

The point about Reinhardt is that a powerful unique character spreads awareness about that character's game.  Fallen Robin got a lot of hype cause of his attack stat, being an armor dragon and coming with ward dragons.  What if that was some new character from an old game?  Or Winter Tharja has become a meta staple, what if that christmas unit was from an old game?  

It is an accomplishment since 44 came from 2 games of a series of (not counting remakes) 13 games.

[Lewyn]

3 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

It is an accomplishment since 44 came from 2 games of a series of (not counting remakes) 13 games.

Lol, okay.  

[Ice Dragon]

53 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

They could have added Rinea and Medeus and made them strong and desirable.  That would have added more awareness to those games.

Not without changing the theme of the banner. Neither Rinea nor Mediuth are fallen characters.

Furthermore, what kind of theme would work for Hardin, Takumi, Rinea, and Mediuth anyways? "A few important enemy characters"? They're not all final bosses; they're not all penultimate bosses. At least make an effort to suggest characters that would work well together as a banner.

I've seen arguments for Mareeta, but it's clear from past banners that, with the exceptions of teasers from the sibling banners, the developers want to add the star characters of a game into Heroes before expanding on that game's roster. Plus, adding Mareeta before Leaf would have just intensified the "where the fuck is Thracia" noise.

 

58 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

after all Miciah was already the big draw along with to a lesser degree Sothe.

Ahahahaha. No. Zelgius was almost certainly the star player of that banner. Welcome to whale country where Zelgius's Arena usability (boosted armor stats, 400-SP weapon, 500-SP Special skill that eclipses Aether and Galeforce, 300-SP passive B skill, absolutely top-of-the-game combat performance) matters far more than anything Micaiah or Sothe could bring to the table.

Micaiah and Sothe probably got a few more minnows to grab some more orbs, but Zelgius is the one wearing the pants and bringing home the bacon.

[Arthur97]

Just now, Lewyn said:

Lol, okay.  

Do you even math? Besides, CYL2 is grossly inaccurate anyways. 

[bottlegnomes]

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

Sure, but you act like that is some sort of accomplishment.  Considering Radiant dawn is the last game before Awakening and that came in 2007, all the games besides Awakening/Fates are super old.  In addition it is impressive how many characters from old games that were Japan only got on the list.  

The point about Reinhardt is that a powerful unique character spreads awareness about that character's game.  Fallen Robin got a lot of hype cause of his attack stat, being an armor dragon and coming with ward dragons.  What if that was some new character from an old game?  Or Winter Tharja has become a meta staple, what if that christmas unit was from an old game?  

Edit: It ended up being who everyone expected.  How disappointing, same legendary weapon, and the debut of colorless dragon is girl Robin.  Lame. 

How many characters from Echoes made the top 100? By your logic, Echoes, being the newest, should have the most prevalence in people's minds and subsequently a strong showing, but it had 8 if I counted right, about 1/3 of the average from either Fates or Awakening (1/5th of the cast of Echoes vs about 1/2 of the cast of Awakening and a little less than 1/3 of the cast of Fates taking an average of 22 per game).

Reinhardt is an extremely powerful, bordering on supremely powerful (formerly), character that was literally meta-defining, and had a strong basis for said power in his home game. It's 100% fact that IS tries to keep characters true to their home incarnation in their initial form; given that, how many characters have even the closest chance of being Reinhardt levels of meta-defining?

Grima was popular for being a unique unit and being a popular character. Medeus, given the same abilities, would've drawn less because he's a less popular character from a less popular set of games. Once more, how is preferring Medeus. who pleases 20% of the fanbase and 80% doesn't care about, actually less selfish than preferring Grima, who 30% likes, 10% dislikes, and 70% is apathetic towards? Hell, at this point, I'm literally giving you numbers to give you an easy case.

Also, you still have yet to explain how Grima could've been implemented in a manner that was true to the source material and not just an alt by the standards you seem to have.

Edited March 28, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Troykv]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Ahahahaha. No. Zelgius was almost certainly the star player of that banner. Welcome to whale country where Zelgius's Arena usability (boosted armor stats, 400-SP weapon, 500-SP Special skill that eclipses Aether and Galeforce, 300-SP passive B skill, absolutely top-of-the-game combat performance) matters far more than anything Micaiah or Sothe could bring to the table.

Micaiah and Sothe probably got a few more minnows to grab some more orbs, but Zelgius is the one wearing the pants and bringing home the bacon.

I think he is talking about popularity, I mean, making the banner have, Zelgius, Micaiah and Sothe at the same type seems overwhelming... (because all of them are  very popular between the Tellius Characters... and Zelgius was already in the game... kind of.)

But seeing in perspective, Sothe is a bit underwhelming compared with Micaiah's anti meta abilities and Zelgius absurd gameplay prowness (Black Luna and that 2 Gen BST it's insane)... that nowadays are the things that sells in the game anyway.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Troykv

[redlight]

Faye as a flying mage harrier

Makalov as the fastest cavalry unit with desperation 4 built into his weapon

Male Corrin as a colorless horse dragon

[Charmeleonbrah]

Let's be real here: 

1. IS wants to make money.

2.  IS does not care if one character has 4 versions, while Thracia 776 has only two characters period.

3.  IS generally only puts the most popular units on each banner.

 

Considering there's now SIX Robins, it's likely we'll get more of the most popular Awakening and Fates characters as Legendary heroes, with Blazing Sword being another possibility.

My bets for upcoming Legendary Heroes:

Lyn, Hector, Camilla, Xander, Tharja, Takumi, Corrin, Lucina (why not a fifth version?)

[Icelerate]

11 hours ago, Troykv said:

But seeing in perspective, Sothe is a bit underwhelming compared with Micaiah's anti meta abilities and Zelgius absurd gameplay prowness (Black Luna and that 2 Gen BST it's insane)... that nowadays are the things that sells in the game anyway.

Well it suits his character. Just replace Ike with Zelgius because it applies in that case. 

Spoiler

Sothe: Here goes…
Sephiran: Hello, child… I’m a little surprised to see an ordinary boy like you, fighting for the world. This day is full of surprises!
Sothe: No one’s more surprised than me. I can’t read people’s feelings like Micaiah… I’m not invincible in battle like Ike… Between all these laguz kings and great beorc heroes, I don’t really belong here.
Sephiran: Then why are you here?
Sothe: Because there’s one thing I can’t afford to lose. Micaiah. I’ve come all this way just to protect her… I won’t lose her now.
Sephiran: The depth of your feelings… Might I ask your name?
Sothe: Sothe. Now if you want to stand in our way, I’m prepared to cut you down.

 

[DraceEmpressa]

40 minutes ago, Charmeleonbrah said:

Let's be real here: 

1. IS wants to make money.

2.  IS does not care if one character has 4 versions, while Thracia 776 has only two characters period.

3.  IS generally only puts the most popular units on each banner.

 

Considering there's now SIX Robins, it's likely we'll get more of the most popular Awakening and Fates characters as Legendary heroes, with Blazing Sword being another possibility.

My bets for upcoming Legendary Heroes:

Lyn, Hector, Camilla, Xander, Tharja, Takumi, Corrin, Lucina (why not a fifth version?)

This. 

But honestly I kinda feel like  Xander getting more alt than Leo is more bc dev favoritism than actual popularity. Azura, Roy and Chrom is also still possible. Also, Ninian. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by DraceEmpressa

[Lewyn]

18 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

How many characters from Echoes made the top 100? By your logic, Echoes, being the newest, should have the most prevalence in people's minds and subsequently a strong showing, but it had 8 if I counted right, about 1/3 of the average from either Fates or Awakening (1/5th of the cast of Echoes vs about 1/2 of the cast of Awakening and a little less than 1/3 of the cast of Fates taking an average of 22 per game).

Reinhardt is an extremely powerful, bordering on supremely powerful (formerly), character that was literally meta-defining, and had a strong basis for said power in his home game. It's 100% fact that IS tries to keep characters true to their home incarnation in their initial form; given that, how many characters have even the closest chance of being Reinhardt levels of meta-defining?

Grima was popular for being a unique unit and being a popular character. Medeus, given the same abilities, would've drawn less because he's a less popular character from a less popular set of games. Once more, how is preferring Medeus. who pleases 20% of the fanbase and 80% doesn't care about, actually less selfish than preferring Grima, who 30% likes, 10% dislikes, and 70% is apathetic towards? Hell, at this point, I'm literally giving you numbers to give you an easy case.

Also, you still have yet to explain how Grima could've been implemented in a manner that was true to the source material and not just an alt by the standards you seem to have.

Echoes is a remake not a new game, and the release did allow many Echoes characters to rank much higher, including Celica who won female this year.  

I guarantee when this huge new Switch Fire Emblem game comes about, many of those characters are going to push their way into top 100.  Also another thing.  The older Fire Emblem games (pre Awakening) are over a decade old, some over 20 years old.  That is a huge span of time.  So it isn't that Fates/Awakening is so great or whatever you want to believe, it is rather that the pre Awakening games are so old.  Where were you 20 years ago?  The FE series also doesn't really do recurring characters, with few exceptions, so unless you play those games you aren't going to encounter them (other than Smash).  

Anyways this conversation has run its course for now.  The new legendary has dropped, for some it is great for some it is calamity, but for all time doesn't reverse.  

[bottlegnomes]

@Lewyn What does Echoes being a remake have to do with the cast being prevalent in people's minds because of recency?

[Lewyn]

8 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

@Lewyn What does Echoes being a remake have to do with the cast being prevalent in people's minds because of recency?

Pretty simple.  Remakes are much less advertised, much less promoted, and often more for really hardcore fans than casuals.  Brand new additions to a series are much bigger events and attract any fan of the franchise.  

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Pretty simple.  Remakes are much less advertised, much less promoted, and often more for really hardcore fans than casuals.  Brand new additions to a series are much bigger events and attract any fan of the franchise.  

None of those assertions has anything to do with the cast being in people's minds because the game was recent.

Futhermore, I don't see how generalizations like that are at all relevant to the discussion. You can argue that trees are often green, but that doesn't change the fact that the plum tree in my front yard is purple.

[Lewyn]

41 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

None of those assertions has anything to do with the cast being in people's minds because the game was recent.

Futhermore, I don't see how generalizations like that are at all relevant to the discussion. You can argue that trees are often green, but that doesn't change the fact that the plum tree in my front yard is purple.

It has everything to do with it.  Remakes are much less anticipated, much less played, and thus have much less exposure than new games.  However we'll see who's right when the Switch fire emblem game releases.  Let's see if Fates/Awakening dominates then.  

[Humanoid]

Echoes is not a game that will stick long in my mind primarily because it's not a good game. It was, for me, effectively a completely new game, just a bad one.

[Lewyn]

5 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Echoes is not a game that will stick long in my mind primarily because it's not a good game. It was, for me, effectively a completely new game, just a bad one.

Well for Japan obviously it isn't and they make up a lot of the voters for CYL.  Also even for outsiders who are encountering Gaiden for the first time, there is a big difference between a remake of a 25+ year game, and a brand new entry into the main series.  

Again wait til Fire Emblem Switch.  It isn't that the Fates/Awakening cast is so amazingly written or whatever, just that all the other characters originate from 10+ years ago.  In addition we can see most of it is waifu worship or whatever.  Camilla is better written than people think, but let's not kid ourselves as to the biggest two factors to her popularity. 

I mean this is all common sense and doesn't really require discussion.  Goes for most series that don't have recurring characters. 

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Also even for outsiders who are encountering Gaiden for the first time, there is a big difference between a remake of a 25+ year game, and a brand new entry into the main series.  

There is literally nothing functionally different between a brand new game and a remake of a game from more than two decades ago that pretty much no one has played.

 

5 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

I mean this is all common sense and doesn't really require discussion.

Best way to end an argument: Tell everyone arguing against you that they're dumb. Yep.

[Lewyn]

37 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There is literally nothing functionally different between a brand new game and a remake of a game from more than two decades ago that pretty much no one has played.

 

Best way to end an argument: Tell everyone arguing against you that they're dumb. Yep.

I've explained that thoroughly.  However looks like we won't agree here.  Let's see when Fire Emblem Switch releases.  Or better yet let's wait a decade and see if the majority of most liked characters are from Fates/Awakening.  

I mean it is common sense, not calling anyone dumb.  

[Ice Dragon]

31 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Or better yet let's wait a decade and see if the majority of most liked characters are from Fates/Awakening.  

No one here is saying that the popularity of Awakening and Fates is not because they are the most recent games. Hell, I didn't even mention those games until this post.

I'm saying that Echoes being a remake doesn't change the fact that it functionally behaves like a new game, and the characters in Echoes functionally behave like brand new characters (especially considering a lot of them had their character design completely changed). The popularity that Celica has had recently stems from Echoes being new.

 

35 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

I mean it is common sense, not calling anyone dumb.  

Using the common sense card in an argument is identical to saying "this should be obvious, you are dumb to not realize this is obvious".

Which, by the way, does not add to your argument at all. Simply asserting that your argument is true holds zero weight.