Why are armored units considered weak outside of their movement penalty

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

It also means that Seth, just like FE9 Titania, is a very bad Jeigan since in the first chapters he can't set up kills for the weaklings you get, while Gilliam can without having to go out of his way to do so. Gilliam is more of a Jagen than Seth and he becomes even better if you give him some love (he's far more worth your time than Franz, Kyle and Forde added to one another). He can be sent in the ennemy lines and chip them if he doesn't have enough level lead to simply OS them with iron weapons, which happens all the time in a normal difficulty PT (I mean he OSes them) and before that he alows the weaker allies to safely pick up the ennemies he weakened.

I fail to see Gilliam as even half as good as you're hyping him up to be - he suffers WTD against most stuff in the first couple of chapters after getting him, meaning he's harder to work with. Making things worse for him, the axe users in the first couple of chapters can double him with a high speed roll, which leaves him dead in the water. Mind you, he's not exactly shrugging off those hits - two hits and he can kiss half his health goodbye. That is NOT what should be happening to a supposed Jagen.

8 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Kyle is a worse Gilliam (more like a little faster and more accurate Garcia), Forde has been good as a cavalier in 1 of my PT (and I did many, always raising every unit of the same class and comparing their 20 stats to decide which one I promote) and he threw everything after his promotion to GK (AKA shit level ups) while he had godly stats as a level 20 cavalier. Franz is a faster but squishier Seth so I don't see the point in raising him.

I don't see the "worse Gilliam" part - if anything, I see Gilliam as a worse, less mobile Kyle. And I don't see why Franz isn't worth investing in but Gilliam is. Especially since this is the same Gilliam who, last I checked, isn't exactly taking love taps from chapter 2 and 3 brigands...

 

8 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

From your starting team, Eirika will be locked for 17 full chapters (prologue counts as 1) at level 20 T1, and even then she's not that good of a lord (she would be better as a swordmaster for the crit bonus) and damn 7 movement promoted mounted units. Ephraim is better in nearly everything except speed and skill (skill cap). Vanessa is useful for a few things (like the spider in chapter 6 and the pirates in chapter 9A if you promoted her, and Levant, Vanessa level 10/1 with an iron sword can deal with the pirates without a problem, her speed problems come from lances, swords are good on her and give her +10 avoid vs axemen, +20 counting lances or +24 counting iron lances) then she gets outclassed by every flyer available except her sister who is supposed to be better because she's the captain of the pegasi but oh no she's one of the bad prepromotes in this game, as bad as Sigrun in RD (it's sad because I like both of them more than most of their competition and being leaders they're supposed to be better than their underlings). Maybe if Phila was playable in Awakening she would come level 10 with bases comparable to Libra's at level 1. Garcia is garbage, we should make a MEME with this. Ross isn't worth the investment you put into him without excessive stat booster grinding (lol lv 20/20 berserker's 18-21 speed and barely 18 def with trash res) but still overall better than Garcia. Arthur is good just because bishop is effective against monsters, otherwise Lute is better at level 1 than Arthur level 2 (1 more def, more MT on tomes) and she becomes far better than him with every level up (40% speed Arthur vs 45% Lute, he's lucky to have 2 or 3 more at base or he would be instabenched) since she gets more magic, speed and luck per level. And she might have more def as well in a physically dominated game. Neimi is OK but not necessary (you could send her promotion item for 5k extra cash) and Colm is the best thief and he's a better assassin than Joshua, tied with Marisa (different stats but same average luck and both should cap strength, both will cap speed). Joshua is not worth it (Eirika should already be better or similar to him if you used her and not Franuzeless).

So from the initial group there are: Eirika (1), Gilliam (2), Seth (3), Lute (4), Moulder/Natasha (5), Colm(6) and Vanessa (7) worth training (meaning the game is easier if you train them). You can bench 2 of them, not more if you go for a no grind hard difficulty classic gameplay. Ephraim is replacing Eirika (and if you want to play him go on his route to get him as your forced lord), Tana and/or Cormag will probably replace Van'ass'a, Duessel is usable even if he's outclassed by many units (except on the bulk part he's like 3rd physical tank in the game but has double weakness to compensate). Dozla is garbage, L'Arachel is funny so she can be a staffbot (anyway she won't ever have great combat because lolmagiccap and lolskillcap and loldef). Saleh might be the 2nd to worst magic user, staff bot is his best use (even his growths are garbage) but Knoll is the worst (at least he can summon ghosts that may outclass Garcia/Dozla/Innes/Saleh/Forde/Kyle/Syrene all at once and get exp from it to summon better ghosts). Amelia is great if you give her love, otherwise she's a trainee. Ewan is better than Saleh and Knoll but worse than Moulder, Natasha, Arthur, L'Arachel and Lute because his growths suck. Amelia and Ewan are the only units ho don't have access to SM/berserker who can still get 15% bonus crit rate from their special class, worth mentionning (and all of Ewan's weapons have good damage and 1-2 range and better accuracy than axes, also worth mentionning).

Looking at this, I have issues with a lot of this. Regarding Vanessa, sure, she can use swords when promoted, but is it really worth hamstringing her potential and drastically slowing her leveling speed??? As someone who isn't a fan of early promotion, I say it ain't worth it. As for Artur stuff (because SS has no Arthur - Genealogy's second gen and Fates do, though), I don't really see Lute as better when she's down 1 speed to start, and doesn't catch up until nearing promotion (and her case isn't helped by losing AS from everything). WRT Colm, being a better assassin doesn't mean anything because the other option is better for all three of Colm, Marisa and Joshua.

Cormag might be able to replace Vanessa... on Ephraim's route. On Eirika, he misses more of the game, and might even be missed if you're too quick to clear the chapter he joins in. Tana joins underleveled, and misses at least half a chapter's worth of experience in Ephraim route. Ewan is not better than Saleh, and I'd dispute Knoll as well. He also doesn't get boosted crit from super trainee, which is a novelty anyway. I don't see why you're holding her skill cap against L'arachel. Amelia, as I already said earlier, has better options than her super trainee class.

8 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

If I had to do a tierlist, it would be like that:

S+: Trained Cormag (A if you count his availability)

S: Seth-Ephraim-trained Gilliam-trained Tana (A if you count her availability)

A: Eirika, Franz, Van'ass'a, Duessel (B for availability, A+ for base stats), Gerik (Seth syndrome, medium in everything, very good at nothing), Colm, (Innes)

B: Innes (bis), Neimi, Moulder, Natasha, Arthur, Amelia, Joshua, Saleh (for staff rank and base magic), Rennac, Myrrh, L'Arachel (late join + low base level + no combat for at least 7 levels)

C: Ross, Marisa, Ewan, Knoll (summon), Kyle, Tethys

D: Dozla (XD), Garcia, Forde, Syrene

O: Orson (1 chapter LTC so he has his own tier)

I call bullshit on just about everything on this tier list - for starters, there's no way in the seven hells I would consider Cormag the best unit in the game when he misses half of it on his better route. Second, Gilliam being in the same tier as Seth is a joke. Third, it fails to account for route. I could go on and on, really.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[ping]

On 28.3.2018 at 4:47 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Kyle is a worse Gilliam (more like a little faster and more accurate Garcia), Forde has been good as a cavalier in 1 of my PT (and I did many, always raising every unit of the same class and comparing their 20 stats to decide which one I promote) and he threw everything after his promotion to GK (AKA shit level ups) while he had godly stats as a level 20 cavalier. Franz is a faster but squishier Seth so I don't see the point in raising him.

Having two (or three) paladins isn't a bad thing, so I don't follow your argument about Franz. "Good combat with superiour movement" isn't a niche role in which you have only use for one unit. I suppose it's worth repeating that enemies in FE8 tend to be on the weaker side, and Pala!Franz can easily one-round a good portion of them (and, of course, has sufficient bulk to face multiple enemies at once).

Also, personal experience still means very little - RNG bliss and screwage is A Thing, of course, but Forde's and Franz' growth rates are very similar (+/- 5% from each other in every stat except skill), which makes Franz the stronger, faster, slightly less accurate version of Forde, thanks to the differences in base stats/level. "But my Forde was good once" isn't much of an argument.

Generally speaking, I still feel that your focus on endgame performance is way to large. Calling Saleh the "2nd to worst magic user", for example completely ignores that he joins with absolutely amazing 1-2 range in Eirika's route, which alone makes him a great unit to field. And while I do agree that L'Arachel isn't a good unit, her caps are completely irrelevant for the entire game (maybe excluding Creature Campaign). She caps her first stat at level 20/12 - and why would you promote a healer at level 20? And the first stat she caps is Luck, i.e. the stat where every unit in the game has the same cap. She reaches her other caps at 20/18 on average, which would be completely irrelevant even if you promoted her at 20.

Again, it's not my intention to discredit your way of playing. But I do discredit the metric of "performance in the endgame after hours of grinding" for the quality of a unit. Anyway, this is my final post in that matter, since a) this is the Fates subforum after all, and b) you didn't really answer any of my previous points anyway, so even this post is probably a huge waste of my time.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Are we still on the Conquest board? <_< Oh well.

Gilliam is terrible though; surprised to see anyone defending him. He joins in axe country (including some who can double him), he has worse move than anyone, has more trouble doubling than anyone (he passes Garcia/Dozla for speed eventually on paper, but at least they have access to Garm). If you want def, then there are other characters with almost as much who lack his flaws (Gerik, Cormag, Duessel, Ephraim), and anyway past a certain point, avoid takes over for def as durability in the GBA games anyway. He might not be the worst character in the game because of some other units who join really underlevelled, but he's still really bad.

[Navarth]

If not anybody in Fates, what's the ideal example of a useful knight class in an FE game, and is the character still worth using overall? If not, what would they need to reach that point?

Personally I've always found FE7's Oswin to be a terror among his knightly peers. There's clearly something in the water in Ostia, considering how he and Hector (the ultimate life form) routinely hold whole fronts by themselves, basically ignoring the weapon triangle and the notion that other units are supposed to be faster than them - but aren't.

That said, I do agree that Fates' skills were a major boon to the class, so maybe the real exemplar of the type is Effie?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oswin is useful because he joins at a high level (which in turn means he has "really good" base defence instead of "pretty good").

Gatrie (RD) is useful because he actually has above average speed (and still has good str/def).

Effie is useful because (a) pair up provides a mobility boost and (b) her str is extremely strong in a game where this is more valuable than usual.