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Why are armored units considered weak outside of their movement penalty


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12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Out of those, the only really worthwhile items are the Bolting, Fortify, money, Speedwing, Angelic Robe, and maybe the Talisman.

I doubt that Gilliam could feasibly solo the game. Why? Because of chapter 19. Also, the only lances Seth loses AS from are steel (generally inferior to iron), brave (not obtained until chapter 19), horseslayer, heavy spear, and short spear. None of these are exactly what I'd call good weapons. Regarding Amelia, I don't really see what makes making her a general worth it when her defense is disappointing for one.

1. That's quite a lot for potentially 1 rogue (unless you use both and waste 1 spot for a fighting unit) and you seem to forget the stealable items which make you closer to being rich so you can buy more OP weapons (and Gilliam with an -S hero axe against non ranged ennemies is LULZ, and guess what, outside from magic users, there's approximately 1 ranged ennemy per ennemy trio and ennemies mostly move in trio, like the groups of ninjas in Naruto, meaning you can ORKO 1 range ennemies on EP and kill the remaining one on PP). And if people manadged to solo with Seth, I don't see how Gilliam couldn't do it, both have only 1 save option. Maybe deploying Duessel to save the lord and keeping him outside of ennemy range allows you to ROFLstomp with brave axe Gilliam, ORKOing every ennemy (can always take a hammer or heavy lance to kill the GKs and the generals in 1 hit but I doubt it's necessary with one the the few units reaching 26+ strength without any stat booster)

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

In Fates? They're not, in fact they're one of the best unit types in the game. At least in my opinion.

Oh, then do you use them as front units outside of a few defend chapters? (AKA chapter 10 the annoying chapter with pegasi using the bypass strategy with bullshit mobility and archers easily taking control of the eastern ballista if you don't have a ranged unit who can kill them easily on EP without getting killed by their 20-ish damage around level 10 because most of your units at this stage aren't higher than that, maybe 12-13 for your best units seeing how you have to divide the job between mage killers and physical baits/killers in every chapter in CQ)

Fates, just like Awakening, forces you to go on the offensive in maaany chapters outside of a few defend chapters (only existing in CQ and possibly in Revelations, I didn't finish it yet cuz I find Fates becoming boring after the 1st half of the game, the 1-2 range weapons are trash outside of lords' special OP weapons which force you to use these units to ease the game because mages are quite bad in this game and they're your only other 1-2 range option unless you like taking a 5 speed penalty and inability to crit and Kaze doesn't ORKO much outside of early mages and in CQ he's not even here in earlygame and you have to use Niles who has a bow without quick draw).

But well in my FE8 mod I'm going to put the same damage on both slim and steel weapons with slim giving 3 spd and -2 def/res and steel -3 spd and +2 def/res so people can play offensively or defensively. I'd also like to make a -30 spd +30 something weapon for LULZ but I don't know which one to give that and how to make it viable for now.

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Can we not sum fates up as one game? It's three very different games that happen to share six maps. Hell Rev/BR functionally skip traditional armor entirely. Similarly some tactics give different results on different difficulties. Example: Effie is simultaneously great on Nhormal and bench fodder on lunatic.

That aside... everything said about CQ in the above post is either wrong, or an incredibly dank meme. Was that copy pasted from reddit?

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What about CQ is wrong? it's not like we talked a lot of it at first. Actually the topic derived onto FE8's generals' quality after I took them as an example of what a good general can be and our disagreement about Amelia (why would people have one more cavalier in a game with 15% of a medium-scale cast being cavaliers/paladins already I don't know, since this unit can also get classes with better stats, base- and caps-wise since anyway she's gonna cap speed even as a general, her growths not being altered upon promotion, and it's not like you would use Amelia in a no grind run anyway so why bother making her paladin for more move if you can just give her the stats to go to the front without dying instead, +4 def is nothing to laugh at in any FE game, especially when the other class gives +0 after a few levels, or even -1 if female paladin's cap is lower than 25 but I don't think so, and general promotion gives her 2 spd anyway mine had 22 lv 1 general, enjoy your +4 def and raise your middle finger at paladins with me).

Edit: all generals should just follow Gatrie's way or weirdos should follow Tauroneo's way, at least the mustache had capped res all the time and good skill/spd with decent def for his class, still higher than most classes in the game, most of them having low def caps especially on tier 2. Gatrie is the best general I've known (I don't know Oswin, I must have ditched his game before even reaching him because of low growths being annoying or if it's older than GBA, because of weird mechanics and awful graphics).

Edited by mangasdeouf
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Everything was pretty descriptive. It means everything. All of that post's claims related to CQ are innacurate.

FE8 is not exceptional in the armor area. There is a reason that in the few postend "challange" areas, any challange run, and the Master Quest hack armor is considered... bad. When everyone is super... the ones with broke ass knees are less super. Gillam is lit Nhormal Effie without the speed growth. Also no horse in pony emblem.

For an example of value armor look to higher difficulty FE12 where nobody has res, general bulk actually matters starting in P1, and they get fucking bows. Or awakening/CQ where the bulk... matters situationally, and they get useful skills. It's worth noting that all of these games have more useful movement tools than the gba emblems.

Edited by joshcja
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8 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

1. That's quite a lot for potentially 1 rogue (unless you use both and waste 1 spot for a fighting unit) and you seem to forget the stealable items which make you closer to being rich so you can buy more OP weapons (and Gilliam with an -S hero axe against non ranged ennemies is LULZ, and guess what, outside from magic users, there's approximately 1 ranged ennemy per ennemy trio and ennemies mostly move in trio, like the groups of ninjas in Naruto, meaning you can ORKO 1 range ennemies on EP and kill the remaining one on PP). And if people manadged to solo with Seth, I don't see how Gilliam couldn't do it, both have only 1 save option. Maybe deploying Duessel to save the lord and keeping him outside of ennemy range allows you to ROFLstomp with brave axe Gilliam, ORKOing every ennemy (can always take a hammer or heavy lance to kill the GKs and the generals in 1 hit but I doubt it's necessary with one the the few units reaching 26+ strength without any stat booster)

Except against Swordmasters, which, while they may not do much of anything, just keep you pinned down so you can't win. Also, what if Garm breaks? What's more, I'd imagine there's a world of difference between soloing with the least mobile class in the game and soloing with someone in the most mobile ground class in the game - like the fact that Seth actually has some semblance of a chance to get to and kill Riev before the enemy can get to and kill Mansel. 

2 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

What about CQ is wrong? it's not like we talked a lot of it at first. Actually the topic derived onto FE8's generals' quality after I took them as an example of what a good general can be and our disagreement about Amelia (why would people have one more cavalier in a game with 15% of a medium-scale cast being cavaliers/paladins already I don't know, since this unit can also get classes with better stats, base- and caps-wise since anyway she's gonna cap speed even as a general, her growths not being altered upon promotion, and it's not like you would use Amelia in a no grind run anyway so why bother making her paladin for more move if you can just give her the stats to go to the front without dying instead, +4 def is nothing to laugh at in any FE game, especially when the other class gives +0 after a few levels, or even -1 if female paladin's cap is lower than 25 but I don't think so, and general promotion gives her 2 spd anyway mine had 22 lv 1 general, enjoy your +4 def and raise your middle finger at paladins with me).

Because you're sadly mistaken - variety is overrated. Why in the name of Din, Nayru and Farore would I think General Amelia is "better" or "worth it" when it's neither??? Better caps (which don't mean anything because it's Sacred Stones, and that she ain't hitting anyhow)? It's not like Knight Amelia is going to be queen of the front lines when, as stated earlier, she's barely any more durable than as a Cavalier. And you continually ignore that Cavalier Amelia can fight more enemies at an advantage because she isn't lance locked. The fact that you have 4 other choices for Paladins is irrelevant.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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On 23/03/2018 at 6:04 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except against Swordmasters, which, while they may not do much of anything, just keep you pinned down so you can't win. Also, what if Garm breaks? What's more, I'd imagine there's a world of difference between soloing with the least mobile class in the game and soloing with someone in the most mobile ground class in the game - like the fact that Seth actually has some semblance of a chance to get to and kill Riev before the enemy can get to and kill Mansel. 

Just use anyone to save Eirika/Ephraim and put Gilliam in the way with the other one, murder the ennemies without taking any damage and finish the chapter without any risks. Seth without avoid is way inferior to Gilliam without avoid because at the equivalent level he has a 5-10 def disadvantage depending on things such as Gilliam's level ups and his current level. Sure Seth will reach 20 sooner than Gilliam, but the lattest will have Seth's level 18 def after or even before promotion and level 1 general he will have as much res as level 12 Seth or something like that (promotion is generous with generals while paladins have real shitty promotion gains to compensate for mobility and oh LOL Seth is the worst level 1 paladin, be happy for his growths allowing him to stay relevant for the whole game if you used him from the beginning because most of his stats will reach 20 outside of res and maybe luck, but his stats at level 20 and any cavalier's stats at level 20/20 shows how paladins are bad as fighting units, Franz the glass cannon, Forde so average that he's suffering from it and ends with worse stats than Seth and Kyle being slow and inaccurate and his def being too low with 25% for the supposedly tanky cavalier, only his base def being good).

If I want a good mobile unit, I take Cormag who's far better hands down than any of the cavaliers and Seth: more mobile, can ferry units through mountains or even camp on them, same for water tiles, can reach the eggs on the balcony on chapter 18, has good bases, good caps in any of his classes, good promotion gains, a skill to deal 100% total damage in one of his class options, and he has as much def as Seth (with capped HP vs 46-48). His only downside aside from join time is his weakness to arrows, which is not so problematic because he can have more avoid than paladins in the wyvern knight class and he has capped HP most of the time to absorb damage. Hell even Tana is better than Seth because she caps speed and has a good strength with it and the highest HP pool of the pegasi/falcon knights with the same flying ability as Cormag. In a mobility-oriented playthrough I'd bench cavaliers for flyers even with falcon knights only female promotion because they're far more useful than paladins and can do things they can't like kill the pirates or reach the ballistae in 9A/10B.

For fighting units who don't need to be careful of archers I take hero Gerik, general Gilliam, sniper/forest knight Neimi (high speed, high skill, good attack, hero bows can ORKO dragons without her getting hit, and she has more avoid than any male cavalier and a higher speed cap and as a sniper she can use the ballista in chapter 13A to kill Cormag's annoying friends and recruit him fingers in the nose), Colm (fighting ability + utility, he's gonna be deployed anyway so I'd rather make him fight and get exp faster than anyone else not called Rennac or Myrrh), M yrrh (minimizing her stone uses to get her to endgame, she can reach 18-20 and kill her father eaiser than most of your units or weaken him then use a ranged weapon to finish him), Lute/any high level bishop with S rank in light or dark (monster control glitch>stone>dark level D>weapon exp farming>accessing the most powerful weapons of the game and making all of them efficient against monsters>getting 75 damage Naglfar after recruiting Lyon, reaching 100 damage on ennemies without res, it's really funny to see 100 there with your Moulder/Riev/Arthur/Natasha and the 15+ crit rate depending on their luck).

And on the critical is overkill topic: when your srength cap is 20, critical isn't 100% chance kill. Silencer is. Try to OS a cyclops with Colm without silencer, good luck, see you in a few years.

 

Screenshot_20171002-023927.png

I did the same on my GBA version with the glitch, you only need to cap mag and give a bishop Naglfar after farming stones and weapon exp to S rank, gameshark codes aren't needed outside of emulated ROMs (for some reason most glitches don't seem to work on emulators).

_ _

To Joshcja: in CQ Effie can't double medium speed units while Gilliam can double some even on hard mode, Effie has the same def growth with higher stat caps and comes 2 levels higher with 4 more base def in a game with far stronger ennemies (hell CQ normal ennemies hit harder than FE8 hard ennemies) with far more B-rank weapons and weapon rank bonuses while FE8 only gives bonuses at rank -S. most ennemies can't even get hgher than 25 strength resulting in silver weapons dealing 10-ish damage to a capped def Gilliam if they had it capped, which is very unlikely, 20 str being a very high amount for ennemies in TSS.

I don't think Effie caps her HP on average seeing how she doesn't want to grow HP more than 2/3 of the time. Gilliam has 85% HP growth if I remember and his HP cap might even be higher in a game with less in-game damage (not talking about high levels of the Lagdou ruins in hard where ennemies hit for real but still 30 def 60 HP laughs at them). Gilliam is the balance between Effie and Benny with better speed compared with their respective ennemies and a magic 4 speed difference to double instead of 5 (plus Gilliam can do his job well without the pair-up mechanic while Effie struggles more especially in ennemy-heavy chapters where she is surrounded, her def is debuffed, and there may even be some diviners/onmyoji to kick her ass and there are far more anti- weapons, and Gilliam can absorb anti-weapons hits without loosing 50% HP). Benny needs level 5 general skill not to get doubled by like 80% of the ennemies especially later in the game (even in his joining chapter his base speed is underground). He has more def and especially HP than Effie but he's so knightly that he's got only physical tanking abilities (and he hits hard too) and he's bad at like everything else. At least he can use wary fighter and javelins well to chip ennemies.

But in CQ in many chapters it's hard to make good use of the generals and you have 2 paladins with GK defence and one with free 1-2 range weapon giving him a def boost, and in Birthright it's like why bother with generals when you have no career general and your potential generals have much better classes to use (wyvern/everything else) and in Revelations you get Benny so late he can't contribute much in a grown team but at least you can grind to make generals catch up in exp so they're not lagging behind with a 3+ level lag over the other units.

Edited by mangasdeouf
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4 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Just use anyone to save Eirika/Ephraim and put Gilliam in the way with the other one, murder the ennemies without taking any damage and finish the chapter without any risks. Seth without avoid is way inferior to Gilliam without avoid because at the equivalent level he has a 5-10 def disadvantage depending on things such as Gilliam's level ups and his current level. Sure Seth will reach 20 sooner than Gilliam, but the lattest will have Seth's level 18 def after or even before promotion and level 1 general he will have as much res as level 12 Seth or something like that (promotion is generous with generals while paladins have real shitty promotion gains to compensate for mobility and oh LOL Seth is the worst level 1 paladin, be happy for his growths allowing him to stay relevant for the whole game if you used him from the beginning because most of his stats will reach 20 outside of res and maybe luck, but his stats at level 20 and any cavalier's stats at level 20/20 shows how paladins are bad as fighting units, Franz the glass cannon, Forde so average that he's suffering from it and ends with worse stats than Seth and Kyle being slow and inaccurate and his def being too low with 25% for the supposedly tanky cavalier, only his base def being good).

If I want a good mobile unit, I take Cormag who's far better hands down than any of the cavaliers and Seth: more mobile, can ferry units through mountains or even camp on them, same for water tiles, can reach the eggs on the balcony on chapter 18, has good bases, good caps in any of his classes, good promotion gains, a skill to deal 100% total damage in one of his class options, and he has as much def as Seth (with capped HP vs 46-48). His only downside aside from join time is his weakness to arrows, which is not so problematic because he can have more avoid than paladins in the wyvern knight class and he has capped HP most of the time to absorb damage. Hell even Tana is better than Seth because she caps speed and has a good strength with it and the highest HP pool of the pegasi/falcon knights with the same flying ability as Cormag. In a mobility-oriented playthrough I'd bench cavaliers for flyers even with falcon knights only female promotion because they're far more useful than paladins and can do things they can't like kill the pirates or reach the ballistae in 9A/10B.

For fighting units who don't need to be careful of archers I take hero Gerik, general Gilliam, sniper/forest knight Neimi (high speed, high skill, good attack, hero bows can ORKO dragons without her getting hit, and she has more avoid than any male cavalier and a higher speed cap and as a sniper she can use the ballista in chapter 13A to kill Cormag's annoying friends and recruit him fingers in the nose), Colm (fighting ability + utility, he's gonna be deployed anyway so I'd rather make him fight and get exp faster than anyone else not called Rennac or Myrrh), M yrrh (minimizing her stone uses to get her to endgame, she can reach 18-20 and kill her father eaiser than most of your units or weaken him then use a ranged weapon to finish him), Lute/any high level bishop with S rank in light or dark (monster control glitch>stone>dark level D>weapon exp farming>accessing the most powerful weapons of the game and making all of them efficient against monsters>getting 75 damage Naglfar after recruiting Lyon, reaching 100 damage on ennemies without res, it's really funny to see 100 there with your Moulder/Riev/Arthur/Natasha and the 15+ crit rate depending on their luck).

And on the critical is overkill topic: when your srength cap is 20, critical isn't 100% chance kill. Silencer is. Try to OS a cyclops with Colm without silencer, good luck, see you in a few years.

 

Screenshot_20171002-023927.png

I did the same on my GBA version with the glitch, you only need to cap mag and give a bishop Naglfar after farming stones and weapon exp to S rank, gameshark codes aren't needed outside of emulated ROMs (for some reason most glitches don't seem to work on emulators).

_ _

To Joshcja: in CQ Effie can't double medium speed units while Gilliam can double some even on hard mode, Effie has the same def growth with higher stat caps and comes 2 levels higher with 4 more base def in a game with far stronger ennemies (hell CQ normal ennemies hit harder than FE8 hard ennemies) with far more B-rank weapons and weapon rank bonuses while FE8 only gives bonuses at rank -S. most ennemies can't even get hgher than 25 strength resulting in silver weapons dealing 10-ish damage to a capped def Gilliam if they had it capped, which is very unlikely, 20 str being a very high amount for ennemies in TSS.

I don't think Effie caps her HP on average seeing how she doesn't want to grow HP more than 2/3 of the time. Gilliam has 85% HP growth if I remember and his HP cap might even be higher in a game with less in-game damage (not talking about high levels of the Lagdou ruins in hard where ennemies hit for real but still 30 def 60 HP laughs at them). Gilliam is the balance between Effie and Benny with better speed compared with their respective ennemies and a magic 4 speed difference to double instead of 5 (plus Gilliam can do his job well without the pair-up mechanic while Effie struggles more especially in ennemy-heavy chapters where she is surrounded, her def is debuffed, and there may even be some diviners/onmyoji to kick her ass and there are far more anti- weapons, and Gilliam can absorb anti-weapons hits without loosing 50% HP). Benny needs level 5 general skill not to get doubled by like 80% of the ennemies especially later in the game (even in his joining chapter his base speed is underground). He has more def and especially HP than Effie but he's so knightly that he's got only physical tanking abilities (and he hits hard too) and he's bad at like everything else. At least he can use wary fighter and javelins well to chip ennemies.

But in CQ in many chapters it's hard to make good use of the generals and you have 2 paladins with GK defence and one with free 1-2 range weapon giving him a def boost, and in Birthright it's like why bother with generals when you have no career general and your potential generals have much better classes to use (wyvern/everything else) and in Revelations you get Benny so late he can't contribute much in a grown team but at least you can grind to make generals catch up in exp so they're not lagging behind with a 3+ level lag over the other units.

How in the seven hells are you getting Gilliam past all those reinforcements to kill Riev??? Because if the entrance, where most of the enemies come from, gets blocked, you'll have a very hard time getting to him before some mook kills Mansel.

Tana needs to use lighter, and thus weaker, weapons to keep her speed up. She also comes underleveled, and with bad weapons (Eirika) or no weapons (Ephraim). Aside from arrows, Cormag also takes magic like a chump. Also, Pierce can make the game crash. Both of these also miss about half the game. And again with sending flyers at pirates? Did it not sink in that that has a good chance of not ending well for your fliers?

Um, why would you entertain the thought of promoting Neimi to Sniper??? It's so obviously worse than Ranger it ain't funny. And getting a Bishop to S rank dark magic is so very impractical, it's laughable. That assumes that (1) they haven't already gotten S rank in light or staves by the time you can even pull it off (which is very likely since the place where I can even pull it off is very late in the game), (2) that I think unlocking Lyon is worth it (it isn't), (3) that dark magic is worth using (it isn't after Luna was nerfed to the point of unusability), and (4) that Naglfar is worth using despite being heavy to the point of being unusable (hint: it ain't).

And like I said, Silencer is unreliable. Also, way to cherry-pick there (there's no way that wasn't on purpose). On top of that, I don't see Silencer as enough of a reason to consider Assassin as worth picking for Colm.

Bold: That isn't exactly an impressive feat when enemies tend to weigh themselves down with their weapons.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

How in the seven hells are you getting Gilliam past all those reinforcements to kill Riev??? Because if the entrance, where most of the enemies come from, gets blocked, you'll have a very hard time getting to him before some mook kills Mansel.

Save Mansel like I already told you 3x, I'm not gonna repeat again. And sending Seth to Riev while holding the lord is suicidal since Riev has enough speed to maybe double Seth with spd/2 and kill him in 3 hits, not even mentionning the 25 ennemies Seth has to kill before reaching Riev because they surround you all the time, all all this without dying.

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Tana needs to use lighter, and thus weaker, weapons to keep her speed up. She also comes underleveled, and with bad weapons (Eirika) or no weapons (Ephraim). Aside from arrows, Cormag also takes magic like a chump. Also, Pierce can make the game crash. Both of these also miss about half the game. And again with sending flyers at pirates? Did it not sink in that that has a good chance of not ending well for your fliers?

I don't see the problem, it's not Radiant Dawn or Conquest, you can grind from 1/0/0 to 10/20/20 only with Valni 1 by rushing the boss and retreating after you killed it, and in hard there are many entombs in Valni 1 very often so you can get much exp per stage. Tana can reach 20 in no time. and she's even usable with an iron lance in her recruitment chapter. If I tell you that I have made an Amelia max level in her recruitment chapter no matter on which route then you should understand that Tana is even more usable from the get-go. She looses speed yes but she's gonna cap it anyway so even loosing 5 speed still means she's gonna have 24, and it's not likely that she will loose 5 speed. Cormag doesn't loose speed with a steel lance as a wyvern lord and he might loose 1 as a wyvern knight, he's gonna dodge far more often than Seth and he can put himself out of danger easier than Seth too because he flies. My game never crashed with pierce, maybe once it froze but it didn't crash. Anyway GBA games crashed every single time the cartridge moved by a millimetter so it's not noticeable that pierce made it crash. GBA cartridges sucked hard. I've lost 3h of Pokémon ruby once because of that. I ragequit.

Falcon knights have sword access so they screw pirates even at 10/1. And as a 20/1 even wyvern knight Tana/Vanessa eats them for breakfast (and Vanessa is the second to worst flyer in the game). Let me laugh at your assertion.

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Um, why would you entertain the thought of promoting Neimi to Sniper??? It's so obviously worse than Ranger it ain't funny. And getting a Bishop to S rank dark magic is so very impractical, it's laughable. That assumes that (1) they haven't already gotten S rank in light or staves by the time you can even pull it off (which is very likely since the place where I can even pull it off is very late in the game), (2) that I think unlocking Lyon is worth it (it isn't), (3) that dark magic is worth using (it isn't after Luna was nerfed to the point of unusability), and (4) that Naglfar is worth using despite being heavy to the point of being unusable (hint: it ain't).

Neimi sniper has higher caps in damage which eases Lagdou 10. She can snipe Cormag's friends in 13 A while Innes has trash starting stats compared with her and is much more likely to let them low HP or to miss them.

Don't promote more than 1 bishop before the lava glitch then promote who you want and make him S in dark.

Lyon is recruited post-game. You can buy as many stat booster items as you want post game. Included body rings. I don't care of the weapon weight especially when it OS every monster in the game outside of dragonzombies who die on the 2nd hit anyway and Formortiis who isn't re-fightable after the game ended (sadly). And Lyon is not worth it? LMAO he has 30 mag, 30 def and 30 res, 25 skill and 25 speed, he can tank physical and magical hits perfectly while OSing almost everything. He's funny to play and his character is interesting unlike Garon. I'd prefer having access to his father than Eirika and Ephraim's father BTW. He's not even part of the story past the prologue.

On luna: I never used it. There's flux, nosferatu and Fenrir so I don't care about luna. The other choices are just million times better. Anyway why bother with luna when ennemies don't have res?

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And like I said, Silencer is unreliable. Also, way to cherry-pick there (there's no way that wasn't on purpose). On top of that, I don't see Silencer as enough of a reason to consider Assassin as worth picking for Colm.

Rogue doesn't have an offensive skill which put it under assassin for fighting purposes and Rennac can steal and open chests/doors, and you can always promote Colm after recruiting Rennac if you want those stealable rubies so hard while you could as well get 3 magic swords in Valni and sell them for the same amount or get a few thousands gold in the arena with Colm promoted into assassin or Vanessa/Tana promoted or even Gerik before and after promotion. with 50% crit chance Colm has 25% chance to OS the target. If this is unreliable (while he can reach it without any support just by capping skill and getting S rank in swords while using a killer sword, and mybe even at 20 skill if he can use the shamshir that has 35% crit rate) then why do you consider using aegis or pavise on your tanks in Awakening/Fates? It's even more unreliable since most of the game you have less than 15% chance to activate it. Great skill indeed. You're just ridiculing yourself by making this assertion.

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: That isn't exactly an impressive feat when enemies tend to weigh themselves down with their weapons.

End game ennemies use silver weapons which have more accuracy, damage and weigh less than steel weapons. Most of them don't even slow their user by 1 point. Seth takes 1 of these he looses 10+ HP, Gilliam takes one of these he laughs because it tickles. Gilliam has 12 more HP than Seth and his speed is nearly the same as Seth's with the same cap. Gilliam is better at everything than Seth except movement. Hell he even has at least as much res if not more than your god.

Edited by mangasdeouf
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6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Save Mansel like I already told you 3x, I'm not gonna repeat again. And sending Seth to Riev while holding the lord is suicidal since Riev has enough speed to maybe double Seth with spd/2 and kill him in 3 hits, not even mentionning the 25 ennemies Seth has to kill before reaching Riev because they surround you all the time, all all this without dying.

Can you even rescue him? Not that I tried, because I have bigger fish to fry... By the way, Riev's speed isn't as impressive as you think - sure, he has 20 speed, but because someone at IS thought it was funny to have tomes that weigh as much as steel axes, he loses a lot of that. Also, even if you could somehow get Gilliam down there, a combination of poor resistance and luck means there's a good chance he winds up crying uncle... at least unless you give him the Hoplon Guard.

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I don't see the problem, it's not Radiant Dawn or Conquest, you can grind from 1/0/0 to 10/20/20 only with Valni 1 by rushing the boss and retreating after you killed it, and in hard there are many entombs in Valni 1 very often so you can get much exp per stage. Tana can reach 20 in no time. and she's even usable with an iron lance in her recruitment chapter. If I tell you that I have made an Amelia max level in her recruitment chapter no matter on which route then you should understand that Tana is even more usable from the get-go. She looses speed yes but she's gonna cap it anyway so even loosing 5 speed still means she's gonna have 24, and it's not likely that she will loose 5 speed. Cormag doesn't loose speed with a steel lance as a wyvern lord and he might loose 1 as a wyvern knight, he's gonna dodge far more often than Seth and he can put himself out of danger easier than Seth too because he flies. My game never crashed with pierce, maybe once it froze but it didn't crash. Anyway GBA games crashed every single time the cartridge moved by a millimetter so it's not noticeable that pierce made it crash. GBA cartridges sucked hard. I've lost 3h of Pokémon ruby once because of that. I ragequit.

Falcon knights have sword access so they screw pirates even at 10/1. And as a 20/1 even wyvern knight Tana/Vanessa eats them for breakfast (and Vanessa is the second to worst flyer in the game). Let me laugh at your assertion.

So your solution to everything is to run it down with a 20/20 unit?? Really? Lame. Anyone can benefit from grinding, so I consider that a poor argument. Also, I find it hard to see Cormag dodging more than Seth unless he's taking the turbo express to 20/20, which isn't happening without excessive grinding.

There's only one Elysian Whip at that point, and Vanessa likely isn't high enough a level to use it. So if anyone's making laughable assertions, it's you.

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Neimi sniper has higher caps in damage which eases Lagdou 10. She can snipe Cormag's friends in 13 A while Innes has trash starting stats compared with her and is much more likely to let them low HP or to miss them.

Don't promote more than 1 bishop before the lava glitch then promote who you want and make him S in dark.

Lyon is recruited post-game. You can buy as many stat booster items as you want post game. Included body rings. I don't care of the weapon weight especially when it OS every monster in the game outside of dragonzombies who die on the 2nd hit anyway and Formortiis who isn't re-fightable after the game ended (sadly). And Lyon is not worth it? LMAO he has 30 mag, 30 def and 30 res, 25 skill and 25 speed, he can tank physical and magical hits perfectly while OSing almost everything. He's funny to play and his character is interesting unlike Garon. I'd prefer having access to his father than Eirika and Ephraim's father BTW. He's not even part of the story past the prologue.

On luna: I never used it. There's flux, nosferatu and Fenrir so I don't care about luna. The other choices are just million times better. Anyway why bother with luna when ennemies don't have res?

Sniper has a higher strength cap... by a measly 1 point. That is not nearly enough to make it worth picking over Ranger. Especially since, simply put, bow-lock is bad.

There's still the part where dark magic has nothing going for it to justify the hassle.

And this is assuming that (1) I find Creature Campaign worth playing, and (2) that I would still find it worth playing after unlocking the Bragging Rights Reward, which Lyon is because by the time I unlock him, there's nothing to do.

Nosferatu is too heavy for me to consider it worth using, and Fenrir's even worse in that regard - 18 weight??? No thank you.

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Rogue doesn't have an offensive skill which put it under assassin for fighting purposes and Rennac can steal and open chests/doors, and you can always promote Colm after recruiting Rennac if you want those stealable rubies so hard while you could as well get 3 magic swords in Valni and sell them for the same amount or get a few thousands gold in the arena with Colm promoted into assassin or Vanessa/Tana promoted or even Gerik before and after promotion. with 50% crit chance Colm has 25% chance to OS the target. If this is unreliable (while he can reach it without any support just by capping skill and getting S rank in swords while using a killer sword, and mybe even at 20 skill if he can use the shamshir that has 35% crit rate) then why do you consider using aegis or pavise on your tanks in Awakening/Fates? It's even more unreliable since most of the game you have less than 15% chance to activate it. Great skill indeed. You're just ridiculing yourself by making this assertion.

Except as was repeatedly stated, this is Sacred Stones - most enemies aren't particularly durable and/or threatening as to make gambling on a Silencer worthwhile. And the few that are are not only rare, they're also best killed by other means (there's no way I'm sending an assassin at a Draco Zombie and hoping Silencer kicks in). Or did you forget this is a STRATEGY game??? Sending an assassin that NEEDS Silencer to kill something is always a worse choice than using something better suited for the job. Bringing up Pavise and Aegis doesn't do anything for your argument since the situation doesn't even compare - both aren't relevant until late in the game. As for Rennac, he compares poorly to a trained Colm, so no thanks.

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

End game ennemies use silver weapons which have more accuracy, damage and weigh less than steel weapons. Most of them don't even slow their user by 1 point. Seth takes 1 of these he looses 10+ HP, Gilliam takes one of these he laughs because it tickles. Gilliam has 12 more HP than Seth and his speed is nearly the same as Seth's with the same cap. Gilliam is better at everything than Seth except movement. Hell he even has at least as much res if not more than your god.

No they don't - monsters don't use silver weapons, aside from the Gwyllgi, whose Hellfang is equivalent to a Silver Sword in stats. And why are you bringing up 20/20 stats?? They're not relevant for very long, if at all, so there's no point in bringing them up.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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I'm just saying. Seth is inferior to Gilliam given the same amount of exp. He's even <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Gilliam. Because Seth wastes exp with a negative exp modifier for 10 chapters at least at base level. The exp needed for Seth to get one single level (2 boss kills in the beginning, fast enough it's more like 3) Gilliam get 70% exp per boss kill and 25-ish % exp per normal kill against 4 for Seth. Seth will be level 4 after solo-ing the Bazba fort while Gilliam will be over level 10 (3 level ups against 6+) and the next chapters feeds a free level up for Gilliam, maybe for Seth, but Gilliam can get 4 level ups without effort in chapter 4, while Seth can get 1 and a half.

Gilliam's res and luck aren't a problem, hopron guard+res potion and he tanks for years. Meanwhile Seth can't tank while holding a lord/Mansel. If my memory is correct I have already used the save command on the king in the past because I got cornered with 1 unit (and he's standing on a throne). If it's possible, then Gilliam on the throne will never take any damage. And you can wait X turns to finish the chapter, no one is asking you to kill Riev, so this isn't relevant (even if it was, Gilliam would still be more useful for this task, with or without a lord in his pocket).

Dark magic has OP animation and the highest damage out of all kinds of magic. I wouldn't call it useless. And Moulder at base Bishop can hold it without taking too much penalty and it compensates for his low magic especially when he OSes monsters with it at level 1 promoted. + Dark magic can ease heaers' training. Just give'em stone then flux and use'em like dark mages. They'll get to S in no time if you give'em dark magic at base level (it's not like you need 2 priests/clerics anyway, just a few torches in chap 6) or even at level 10 unpromoted.

Rausten court and River of Regrets throws steel and silver (even some hero weapons) users so yes it matters.

A strategy game yes I know, but you should also know that sometimes in lunatic/lunatic+ you rely on luck to avoid/not get critical hit/be dual guarded etc. Is it not strategy? I think lunatic + farmers would insult you for telling that. I'm doing a Colm only run without cheating by Ephraim's route in hard mode at the moment so we'll see how it goes and how often silencer activates (I'm gonna turn the animations on from the moment he promotes just to see that).

You find the main game easy and complain all the time. Then go into creature campaign hard and finish it 3 times in a row then do it with your newly aquired Lyon to see how bad he is. Let me enjoy the answer.

Vanessa can promote at chapter 9 in Valni (it's her only forced contribution).

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1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

I'm just saying. Seth is inferior to Gilliam given the same amount of exp. He's even <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Gilliam. Because Seth wastes exp with a negative exp modifier for 10 chapters at least at base level. The exp needed for Seth to get one single level (2 boss kills in the beginning, fast enough it's more like 3) Gilliam get 70% exp per boss kill and 25-ish % exp per normal kill against 4 for Seth. Seth will be level 4 after solo-ing the Bazba fort while Gilliam will be over level 10 (3 level ups against 6+) and the next chapters feeds a free level up for Gilliam, maybe for Seth, but Gilliam can get 4 level ups without effort in chapter 4, while Seth can get 1 and a half.

JAGENS WASTE XP!!!!! D: D:

It's crazy that this kind of thinking is still present in the FE community today (outside of some niche situations like ranked FE7) and it's even more crazy that it's applied to Seth of all people. But please elaborate why lv. 4 Seth is worse than lv.10 unpromoted Gilliam. I'm agog.

And please elaborate why it's XP STEALING D: D: when Seth collects kills, but not when Gilliam does.

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5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I'm just saying. Seth is inferior to Gilliam given the same amount of exp. He's even <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Gilliam. Because Seth wastes exp with a negative exp modifier for 10 chapters at least at base level. The exp needed for Seth to get one single level (2 boss kills in the beginning, fast enough it's more like 3) Gilliam get 70% exp per boss kill and 25-ish % exp per normal kill against 4 for Seth. Seth will be level 4 after solo-ing the Bazba fort while Gilliam will be over level 10 (3 level ups against 6+) and the next chapters feeds a free level up for Gilliam, maybe for Seth, but Gilliam can get 4 level ups without effort in chapter 4, while Seth can get 1 and a half.

Which I call BS on because Gilliam is outstatted by Seth forever unless you favor him and/or sandbag Seth. And Gilliam might get more from boss kills, but aside from the Entombed, which is easy exp for anyone, he can't do too much to most bosses early on (barely does anything to the boss in his join chapter, WTD'd against the next two, really doesn't want anything to do with the boss of the fog of war chapter).

5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Gilliam's res and luck aren't a problem, hopron guard+res potion and he tanks for years. Meanwhile Seth can't tank while holding a lord/Mansel. If my memory is correct I have already used the save command on the king in the past because I got cornered with 1 unit (and he's standing on a throne). If it's possible, then Gilliam on the throne will never take any damage. And you can wait X turns to finish the chapter, no one is asking you to kill Riev, so this isn't relevant (even if it was, Gilliam would still be more useful for this task, with or without a lord in his pocket).

Given how insane throne bonuses are, that's not saying much. Also, I'd only settle for holding out if it was obvious I had no chance of getting there before the turn limit. And what's with your obsession with soloing???

5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Dark magic has OP animation and the highest damage out of all kinds of magic. I wouldn't call it useless. And Moulder at base Bishop can hold it without taking too much penalty and it compensates for his low magic especially when he OSes monsters with it at level 1 promoted. + Dark magic can ease heaers' training. Just give'em stone then flux and use'em like dark mages. They'll get to S in no time if you give'em dark magic at base level (it's not like you need 2 priests/clerics anyway, just a few torches in chap 6) or even at level 10 unpromoted.

"OP animations" don't mean a damn when it's so bad as to not be worth it. I don't see any reason to look at dark magic when outside of Flux, it's too heavy and too inaccurate to be worth wielding. What's more, dark magic got the short end of the stick in terms of Sacred Twins (Gleipnir is not only heavy to the point of being unusable, it also boosts the least useful stat, AND it's not effective against monsters like the other Sacred Twins). And while Moulder may have high con, he's lacking in other stats that are more important. He's also only one unit.

5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Rausten court and River of Regrets throws steel and silver (even some hero weapons) users so yes it matters.

Both of which have humans as enemies (and are the last two chapters with human enemies).

5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

A strategy game yes I know, but you should also know that sometimes in lunatic/lunatic+ you rely on luck to avoid/not get critical hit/be dual guarded etc. Is it not strategy? I think lunatic + farmers would insult you for telling that. I'm doing a Colm only run without cheating by Ephraim's route in hard mode at the moment so we'll see how it goes and how often silencer activates (I'm gonna turn the animations on from the moment he promotes just to see that).

Lunatic in Awakening is BS, and Lunatic+ is the cheapest excuse for a difficulty to (dis)grace a Fire Emblem game. And again, why are you so obsessed with soloing???

5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

You find the main game easy and complain all the time. Then go into creature campaign hard and finish it 3 times in a row then do it with your newly aquired Lyon to see how bad he is. Let me enjoy the answer.

That's because it is. FFS, a base level Seth can put in work against endgame enemies. On hard mode. The fact that this is the case is pretty damn telling. As for Lyon, I don't need to unlock him to know how bad he is - I need only look at his bases. And 11 base speed stinks. His tome knocks that down to a big fat goose egg. That's so pathetic, it's utterly laughable.

5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Vanessa can promote at chapter 9 in Valni (it's her only forced contribution).

Guess what? So can the following:

One of Franz, Forde, Kyle, and Gilliam

One of Moulder, Artur, Lute, and Natasha

Neimi

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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On 3/20/2018 at 8:37 PM, joshcja said:

Armor was super useful in FE12's higher difficulties.

In the beginning, before the characters max their stats, yes it is very useful.

After a certain point, typically when the character in the general class has reached their speed and/or defense cap, you'll want to reclass into DracoKnight or Paladin which have higher caps then General.

Too bad, Radiant Dawn's good resistance Armors never reappeared.

On 3/20/2018 at 11:34 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That... would only make them annoying to see on the enemy side. And Wary Fighter is already plenty to make them a pain in the butt.

In Radiant Dawn, armors had the second best magical resistance of the physical classes, only falling behind the Pegasus line. As they still got double attacked by mages, it wasn't annoying for the player mages.

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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14 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

In Radiant Dawn, armors had the second best magical resistance of the physical classes, only falling behind the Pegasus line. As they still got double attacked by mages, it wasn't annoying for the player mages.

Um, no. The mages in Radiant Dawn were pretty slow (or at least, almost all of them). Now, Micaiah might not care too much, since Thani wrecks them, but the other mages aren't so lucky...

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13 hours ago, ping said:

JAGENS WASTE XP!!!!! D: D:

It's crazy that this kind of thinking is still present in the FE community today (outside of some niche situations like ranked FE7) and it's even more crazy that it's applied to Seth of all people. But please elaborate why lv. 4 Seth is worse than lv.10 unpromoted Gilliam. I'm agog.

And please elaborate why it's XP STEALING D: D: when Seth collects kills, but not when Gilliam does.

Because when Seth takes 4 levels, Gilliam reaches more HP, def and strength than him, at the point he can OS with a steel lance or 2 shoot with iron, but also Gilliam has the ability to tank far better than Seth and it's what a jagen should do. It's like comparing Kellam with Fred, the lattest is better when he joins but he falls off later while the first reaches far higher grounds. With the exp you need to make Seth level 20 you could get Gilliam to level 8 general or even more depending on the ennemies he fights. And he would have like 26 def and 13+ res with 16 speed and already more HP than Seth. With the same ressource investment than Seth Gilliam is simply better. If you give the boots toSeth then give them to Gilliam instead. If not ferry him or warp him.

 

12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

what's with your obsession with soloing???

It shows how a unit can do on it's own. It shows their quality.

12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And 11 base speed stinks

Seth has 12 base speed he can' even double the chapter 6 middle map mercenary unless he get 1 point in speed while he is constently trolling the player by getting skill or luck instead of speed. Not talking about his HP worse than Franz's. And Lyon has direct access to inifinite stat boosters with the hghest stat caps of every single class and he can summon ghosts for free exp/bait.

12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Guess what? So can the following:

One of Franz, Forde, Kyle, and Gilliam

One of Moulder, Artur, Lute, and Natasha

Neimi

LOL none of them can fly so none of them can cut the pirates' path in 9A.

6 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

After a certain point, typically when the character in the general class has reached their speed and/or defense cap, you'll want to reclass into DracoKnight or Paladin which have higher caps then General.

Even before since the difference between a general's and a paladin's def cap is quite huge. And how many natural knights/generals cap their speed?

 

6 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Too bad, Radiant Dawn's good resistance Armors never reappeared.

That's on the topic. Yes it's very sad, I like my Gatrie's hybrid tanking and my Tauroneo's capped res.

 

6 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

In Radiant Dawn, armors had the second best magical resistance of the physical classes, only falling behind the Pegasus line. As they still got double attacked by mages, it wasn't annoying for the player mages.

Exactly but it's Radiant Dawn exclusive, except if you count min-maxing in TSS where Generals have the 3rd highest res cap in the game (which many physical and magical units share BTW) with the only best def in the game outside of Lyon and a sky high strength stat with decent speed and skill (yes general's speed=paladin's speed, LMAO).

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Um, no. The mages in Radiant Dawn were pretty slow (or at least, almost all of them). Now, Micaiah might not care too much, since Thani wrecks them, but the other mages aren't so lucky...

Ennemy generals are also quite slow so your mages can easily double them (it's not the awful 5 speed difference like in more recent games). And Constitution doesn't matter for weapon weight (and BEXP can fill the blanks).

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10 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

Because when Seth takes 4 levels, Gilliam reaches more HP, def and strength than him, at the point he can OS with a steel lance or 2 shoot with iron, but also Gilliam has the ability to tank far better than Seth and it's what a jagen should do. It's like comparing Kellam with Fred, the lattest is better when he joins but he falls off later while the first reaches far higher grounds. With the exp you need to make Seth level 20 you could get Gilliam to level 8 general or even more depending on the ennemies he fights. And he would have like 26 def and 13+ res with 16 speed and already more HP than Seth. With the same ressource investment than Seth Gilliam is simply better. If you give the boots toSeth then give them to Gilliam instead. If not ferry him or warp him.

lv.*/4 Seth: 32.7 HP, 12.2 Def, 8.9 Res
lv.10 Gilliam: 30.4 HP, 12.3 Def, 4.2 Res

Try again.

lv.*/4 Seth with a Steel Lance: 25 Atk, 106 hit, 11 AS (he only loses 2 Spd from a Steel lance)
lv.*/4 Seth with a Silver Lance: 29 Atk, 111 hit, 13 AS (Seth starts with a Silver Lance, Gilliam starts with C lances)
lv.10 Gilliam with a Steel Lance: 22 Atk, 89 hit, 5 AS

Enemies in chapter 5:
Fighters - 25 HP, 2-4 Def, 6-7 Spd. Seth doubles, one-rounds, and can use a sword for more reliability / less chance to be hit himself.Gilliam can't do any of this.
Soldiers - 25-26 HP, 0-1 Def, 1-3 Spd. Seth doubles and one-rounds reliably, Gilliam only doubles if his Spd growth has been kind to him and/or if the soldiers roll low on Spd.
Archers - 22-23 HP, 3-5 Def, 5-6 Spd. Same as the fighters, minus the weapon triangle part.
Mercenary - 25 HP, 6 Def, 10 Spd. Neither doubles (Seth might, but he'd need two speed procs), neither one-shots (Seth might, but he'd need two Str procs and the Silver Lance), both take no damage in return (the merc has 12 Atk, so 11 against lances)

Boss in chapter 5:
Knight - 32 HP, 12 Def, 4 Spd. Seth doubles, which allows him to one-round with the silver lance, as long as he procs Str at least once. Gilliam needs four Str procs to three-shot him and five Spd procs to double.

Try the fuck again.

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1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

Ennemy generals are also quite slow so your mages can easily double them (it's not the awful 5 speed difference like in more recent games). And Constitution doesn't matter for weapon weight (and BEXP can fill the blanks).

Not in Radiant Dawn, they aren't. I mean, they're slow relative to other enemies, but they're fast enough that most of the mages you get might not be able to double. BEXP can only really help if the unit caps some stats.

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

Seth has 12 base speed he can' even double the chapter 6 middle map mercenary unless he get 1 point in speed while he is constently trolling the player by getting skill or luck instead of speed. Not talking about his HP worse than Franz's. And Lyon has direct access to inifinite stat boosters with the hghest stat caps of every single class and he can summon ghosts for free exp/bait.

There's a world of difference between 12 base speed in the prologue and 11 base speed when I had to go through hell to unlock someone. Try again. Infinite stat boosters don't mean much because they can go to anyone.

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

It shows how a unit can do on it's own. It shows their quality.

Oh sure, it's a good gauge of quality. If you're delusional.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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4 minutes ago, ping said:

lv.*/4 Seth: 32.7 HP, 12.2 Def, 8.9 Res
lv.10 Gilliam: 30.4 HP, 12.3 Def, 4.2 Res

Try again.

lv.*/4 Seth with a Steel Lance: 25 Atk, 106 hit, 11 AS (he only loses 2 Spd from a Steel lance)
lv.*/4 Seth with a Silver Lance: 29 Atk, 111 hit, 13 AS (Seth starts with a Silver Lance, Gilliam starts with C lances)
lv.10 Gilliam with a Steel Lance: 22 Atk, 89 hit, 5 AS

Enemies in chapter 5:
Fighters - 25 HP, 2-4 Def, 6-7 Spd. Seth doubles, one-rounds, and can use a sword for more reliability / less chance to be hit himself.Gilliam can't do any of this.
Soldiers - 25-26 HP, 0-1 Def, 1-3 Spd. Seth doubles and one-rounds reliably, Gilliam only doubles if his Spd growth has been kind to him and/or if the soldiers roll low on Spd.
Archers - 22-23 HP, 3-5 Def, 5-6 Spd. Same as the fighters, minus the weapon triangle part.
Mercenary - 25 HP, 6 Def, 10 Spd. Neither doubles (Seth might, but he'd need two speed procs), neither one-shots (Seth might, but he'd need two Str procs and the Silver Lance), both take no damage in return (the merc has 12 Atk, so 11 against lances)

Boss in chapter 5:
Knight - 32 HP, 12 Def, 4 Spd. Seth doubles, which allows him to one-round with the silver lance, as long as he procs Str at least once. Gilliam needs four Str procs to three-shot him and five Spd procs to double.

Try the fuck again.

You forget the biggest part: Seth doesn't level up during the biggest part of the chapter and one rounds ennemies, which isn't playing in his favor, because not killing them allows Gilliam to get more exp per chapter. Meaning more level ups. Meaning more stats. Meaning his def will be 3-4 points above Seth by promotion time, and +2 after promotion, And his HP at level 1 general is Seth level 15's HP.

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

There's a world of difference between 12 base speed in the prologue and 11 base speed when I had to go through hell to unlock someone. Try again. Infinite stat boosters don't mean much because they can go to anyone.

With a steel lance (so the 2nd worst lance if you go on this way) Seth begins with 10 speed. With a heavy lance he is down to 9 speed.

They can go to anyone OFC but nobody will have Lyon's stats when they're all capped, so your point is completely biased because you're lazy. Favoring Seth only makes the game harder as he drains tons of exp for the 1st half of the game, not even talking of the other trash cavaliers that don't even become as good as him at 20/20. Cormag is better for a worthy investment since he can fly on top of having excellent combat and a higher cons than most paladins, fili shield removing his weakness for the rest of the game, so he can use the heaviest lances with close to no speed penalty and his speed cap as a wyvern knight is 4 points higher than Seth's. "Very Seth". Lyon has 55 damage with Naglfar and 17 crit rate. No one else in the game can get to 55 base damage (crits excluded since with a crit he beats everyone in damage output except bishops against monsters, and bishops can't have access to Naglfar without recruiting Lyon first).

I'm not trash talking on you by telling you're lazy, just the fact that I have farmed for hundreds of hours on Beat them all or Hack n'slash games or MMORPGs have helped me with being patient, and spending a few hours to have a full team at a good level (generally 20/1 for units from chapter 9, then for late chapters 20/8 is more likely to be my goal and in the endgame my units are ranging between 20/12 and 20/20 like in RD) is more worthy than being lazy and taking the "best base stats units" and make them a little better (Gerik has trash growths but his bases are high enough to compensate, mine has barely ever reached a single cap at 20/20 as a hero with caps quite similar to paladins except his HP even with such badass base stats). It's more rewarding to see how you made an excellent unit out of Amelia or Lute than to make correct for the scenario units out of units with high base stats compared with the cast but who have lower growth rates to the point they're kicked from the podium by slow starting units. Lute has an amazing potential and if she's trained she can be your best magic user for the whole game (except when you get Lyon) but she starts slow, has a bad cons and a medium speed which can get RNG-screwed. Her tanking stats as a sage are quite good (she dodges well when she reaches a good level, her def is decent compared with most magic users and she has a high luck stat with a correct res and her only real rival is Saleh who lacks growths and whose base stats are too low for his join time (so does his base level particularly in Ephraim's route) and her offence is god-tier with as much damage as Garcia/Ross with better damage type (magic) and better speed. She deals 35 damage with a fire tome that has 90 hit rate and 40 uses and only slows her by 1 point in her starting class while not slowing her at all in her promoted classes. Thunder tomes are excellent and Fimbulvetr is scary.

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9 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

LOL none of them can fly so none of them can cut the pirates' path in 9A.

Well, I'm not so desperate I'd risk Vanessa's life picking a fight that might not go her way just to stop pirates from destroying a village, especially since she also needs to stick to lighter weapons to preserve her speed. I'll just use someone better suited for the job instead. Also, not everyone is willing to grind her to promotion. I shouldn't have to tell you this.

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

With a steel lance (so the 2nd worst lance if you go on this way) Seth begins with 10 speed. With a heavy lance he is down to 9 speed.

Is there any good reason why I would be using a Heavy Spear??? Armors are not only rare, they're mage fodder.

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

They can go to anyone OFC but nobody will have Lyon's stats when they're all capped, so your point is completely biased because you're lazy. Favoring Seth only makes the game harder as he drains tons of exp for the 1st half of the game, not even talking of the other trash cavaliers that don't even become as good as him at 20/20. Cormag is better for a worthy investment since he can fly on top of having excellent combat and a higher cons than most paladins, fili shield removing his weakness for the rest of the game, so he can use the heaviest lances with close to no speed penalty and his speed cap as a wyvern knight is 4 points higher than Seth's. "Very Seth". Lyon has 55 damage with Naglfar and 17 crit rate. No one else in the game can get to 55 base damage (crits excluded since with a crit he beats everyone in damage output except bishops against monsters, and bishops can't have access to Naglfar without recruiting Lyon first).

Once again, Cormag misses half the game (more on Eirika's route), and there's only one Fili Shield to go around. And it doesn't become relevant until the last quarter of the game. On the subject of Lyon, Naglfar is just too heavy to even consider worth using (I am NOT okay with nuking my speed just for one powerful hit). And sure, stat boosters can go to anyone, but between making a scrub (e.g. Lyon) usable and improving someone who's already good, I'd rather take the latter.

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I'm not trash talking on you by telling you're lazy, just the fact that I have farmed for hundreds of hours on Beat them all or Hack n'slash games or MMORPGs have helped me with being patient, and spending a few hours to have a full team at a good level (generally 20/1 for units from chapter 9, then for late chapters 20/8 is more likely to be my goal and in the endgame my units are ranging between 20/12 and 20/20 like in RD) is more worthy than being lazy and taking the "best base stats units" and make them a little better (Gerik has trash growths but his bases are high enough to compensate, mine has barely ever reached a single cap at 20/20 as a hero with caps quite similar to paladins except his HP even with such badass base stats). It's more rewarding to see how you made an excellent unit out of Amelia or Lute than to make correct for the scenario units out of units with high base stats compared with the cast but who have lower growth rates to the point they're kicked from the podium by slow starting units. Lute has an amazing potential and if she's trained she can be your best magic user for the whole game (except when you get Lyon) but she starts slow, has a bad cons and a medium speed which can get RNG-screwed. Her tanking stats as a sage are quite good (she dodges well when she reaches a good level, her def is decent compared with most magic users and she has a high luck stat with a correct res and her only real rival is Saleh who lacks growths and whose base stats are too low for his join time (so does his base level particularly in Ephraim's route) and her offence is god-tier with as much damage as Garcia/Ross with better damage type (magic) and better speed. She deals 35 damage with a fire tome that has 90 hit rate and 40 uses and only slows her by 1 point in her starting class while not slowing her at all in her promoted classes. Thunder tomes are excellent and Fimbulvetr is scary.

The thing is, bases > growths. Growths can bless you or screw you. And my issue with Lyon is that his speed base is terrible for all the hard work that I had to put into unlocking him in the first place. It doesn't help that he's stuck with the heavy, inaccurate, and terrible dark tomes. Or that the one he comes with nukes his speed down to a big fat zero. As for your levels, 20/1 for chapter 9 goes well beyond "good level" into "excessive, blatant overgrinding".

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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12 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Even before since the difference between a general's and a paladin's def cap is quite huge. And how many natural knights/generals cap their speed?

In Shadow Dragon, mainly just Draug and Sedgar will cap their speed.

FEDS Paladins have a defense cap of 30, though even with absurd savescumming, you'd still need to buy all the stat boosters to max any of the Paladin's defenses in Shadow Dragon, so only hackers will likely have 30 defense Paladins or DracoKnights, the latter having an even lower defense class growth.

In New Mystery of the Emblem, characters have higher defense growth in general, making this easier to reach. What is really helpful is merging the male class sets. With this, you can level characters like Draug and Roger in the armored class line, until a certain point where you switch them to Paladin. With their defense growths, they will likely cap defense. Same deal with the MyUnit avatar, make him a Knight for the prologue chapters, once he's capped defense, switch him to Cavalier.

19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Um, no. The mages in Radiant Dawn were pretty slow (or at least, almost all of them). Now, Micaiah might not care too much, since Thani wrecks them, but the other mages aren't so lucky...

Last time I played Soren was more then fast enough to double enemy Armored classes.

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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12 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Last time I played Soren was more then fast enough to double enemy Armored classes.

Let me guess - you gave him BEXP.

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21 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

You forget the biggest part: Seth doesn't level up during the biggest part of the chapter and one rounds ennemies, which isn't playing in his favor, because not killing them allows Gilliam to get more exp per chapter. Meaning more level ups. Meaning more stats. Meaning his def will be 3-4 points above Seth by promotion time, and +2 after promotion, And his HP at level 1 general is Seth level 15's HP.

...so Gilliam is better because he is worse then Seth (i.e. not one-rounding enemies)? And why are you suddenly talking about promotion time when you initially talked about XP gain in the first four chapters?

Gilliam does catch up to and pulls ahead of Seth in terms of sheer survivability, at least against physical enemies, but ask yourself this: How often will Seth be in mortal danger over the course of the game with your playstyle? If you're OK with feeding all the kills to Gilliam, that means that you don't mind taking your time with the game, in which case the answer to the question would be "almost never", since if you're playing slowly, you can always just pull the enemies in small groups and keep your own units clustered together. And in situations where you do need to press forward (ch. 9 on Eirika's route comes to mind - you have to hustle to save the western village), Seth is still the best option, thanks to his 8 movement.

Note that I don't consider your playstyle inferior to anyone else's, but when I read this:

21 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

spending a few hours to have a full team at a good level (generally 20/1 for units from chapter 9, then for late chapters 20/8 is more likely to be my goal and in the endgame my units are ranging between 20/12 and 20/20 like in RD) is more worthy than being lazy and taking the "best base stats units" and make them a little better

...then I still have to say that this isn't a better way to play either, and grinding for hours isn't really a show of skill, either - just a show of perseverance (or stubbornness). And honestly, I would consider "grind for a few hours" horrible, horrible advice for a newcomer to Fire Emblem. For one, grinding isn't what I consider fun. Others might disagree, but I say that the assessment "Amelia can be marginally better than Franz and Seth when you take your time and grind her in the Tower of Valni" just supports the conclusion that it's not really worth it to grind her up, especially in conjunction with "A literal Seth solo is not the easiest way to play, but it's still possible".

FE8 isn't a hard game as is, and when you say that you take a few hours making the second half of it another notch easier doesn't convince me at all that the units in question are good.

I suppose that there is a big difference in the principal idea of what makes a good unit. My approach is that I try to consider not only what a unit will end up like, but also what the way to their maximal potential looks like. Seth is so incredibly good because the way to his maximal potential is so short - he starts out completely overpowered, easily one-rounding every enemy (including bosses) of the first few chapters, and you don't have to go out of your way to keep him way ahead of the leveling curve. If he only kills the bosses - and why wouldn't he? He's by far the best boss killer in the game - he gains 3x45 + 50 + 100 XP in the first five chapters, which puts him almost at level 4 without even killing a single generic enemy.

And the thing is - Seth always has an easier time collecting kills than Gilliam. He doubles consistently, which means that he doesn't need anyone to set up kills for him, his defense might be lower than Gilliam's, but it's still plenty to survive most stuff that the game throws at you.

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It also means that Seth, just like FE9 Titania, is a very bad Jeigan since in the first chapters he can't set up kills for the weaklings you get, while Gilliam can without having to go out of his way to do so. Gilliam is more of a Jagen than Seth and he becomes even better if you give him some love (he's far more worth your time than Franz, Kyle and Forde added to one another). He can be sent in the ennemy lines and chip them if he doesn't have enough level lead to simply OS them with iron weapons, which happens all the time in a normal difficulty PT (I mean he OSes them) and before that he alows the weaker allies to safely pick up the ennemies he weakened.

Kyle is a worse Gilliam (more like a little faster and more accurate Garcia), Forde has been good as a cavalier in 1 of my PT (and I did many, always raising every unit of the same class and comparing their 20 stats to decide which one I promote) and he threw everything after his promotion to GK (AKA shit level ups) while he had godly stats as a level 20 cavalier. Franz is a faster but squishier Seth so I don't see the point in raising him.

From your starting team, Eirika will be locked for 17 full chapters (prologue counts as 1) at level 20 T1, and even then she's not that good of a lord (she would be better as a swordmaster for the crit bonus) and damn 7 movement promoted mounted units. Ephraim is better in nearly everything except speed and skill (skill cap). Vanessa is useful for a few things (like the spider in chapter 6 and the pirates in chapter 9A if you promoted her, and Levant, Vanessa level 10/1 with an iron sword can deal with the pirates without a problem, her speed problems come from lances, swords are good on her and give her +10 avoid vs axemen, +20 counting lances or +24 counting iron lances) then she gets outclassed by every flyer available except her sister who is supposed to be better because she's the captain of the pegasi but oh no she's one of the bad prepromotes in this game, as bad as Sigrun in RD (it's sad because I like both of them more than most of their competition and being leaders they're supposed to be better than their underlings). Maybe if Phila was playable in Awakening she would come level 10 with bases comparable to Libra's at level 1. Garcia is garbage, we should make a MEME with this. Ross isn't worth the investment you put into him without excessive stat booster grinding (lol lv 20/20 berserker's 18-21 speed and barely 18 def with trash res) but still overall better than Garcia. Arthur is good just because bishop is effective against monsters, otherwise Lute is better at level 1 than Arthur level 2 (1 more def, more MT on tomes) and she becomes far better than him with every level up (40% speed Arthur vs 45% Lute, he's lucky to have 2 or 3 more at base or he would be instabenched) since she gets more magic, speed and luck per level. And she might have more def as well in a physically dominated game. Neimi is OK but not necessary (you could send her promotion item for 5k extra cash) and Colm is the best thief and he's a better assassin than Joshua, tied with Marisa (different stats but same average luck and both should cap strength, both will cap speed). Joshua is not worth it (Eirika should already be better or similar to him if you used her and not Franuzeless).

So from the initial group there are: Eirika (1), Gilliam (2), Seth (3), Lute (4), Moulder/Natasha (5), Colm(6) and Vanessa (7) worth training (meaning the game is easier if you train them). You can bench 2 of them, not more if you go for a no grind hard difficulty classic gameplay. Ephraim is replacing Eirika (and if you want to play him go on his route to get him as your forced lord), Tana and/or Cormag will probably replace Van'ass'a, Duessel is usable even if he's outclassed by many units (except on the bulk part he's like 3rd physical tank in the game but has double weakness to compensate). Dozla is garbage, L'Arachel is funny so she can be a staffbot (anyway she won't ever have great combat because lolmagiccap and lolskillcap and loldef). Saleh might be the 2nd to worst magic user, staff bot is his best use (even his growths are garbage) but Knoll is the worst (at least he can summon ghosts that may outclass Garcia/Dozla/Innes/Saleh/Forde/Kyle/Syrene all at once and get exp from it to summon better ghosts). Amelia is great if you give her love, otherwise she's a trainee. Ewan is better than Saleh and Knoll but worse than Moulder, Natasha, Arthur, L'Arachel and Lute because his growths suck. Amelia and Ewan are the only units ho don't have access to SM/berserker who can still get 15% bonus crit rate from their special class, worth mentionning (and all of Ewan's weapons have good damage and 1-2 range and better accuracy than axes, also worth mentionning).

If I had to do a tierlist, it would be like that:

S+: Trained Cormag (A if you count his availability)

S: Seth-Ephraim-trained Gilliam-trained Tana (A if you count her availability)

A: Eirika, Franz, Van'ass'a, Duessel (B for availability, A+ for base stats), Gerik (Seth syndrome, medium in everything, very good at nothing), Colm, (Innes)

B: Innes (bis), Neimi, Moulder, Natasha, Arthur, Amelia, Joshua, Saleh (for staff rank and base magic), Rennac, Myrrh, L'Arachel (late join + low base level + no combat for at least 7 levels)

C: Ross, Marisa, Ewan, Knoll (summon), Kyle, Tethys

D: Dozla (XD), Garcia, Forde, Syrene

O: Orson (1 chapter LTC so he has his own tier)

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