Do Alm, Celica, Robin, and Chrom all have Major Holy Blood?

[DisobeyedCargo]

We see in Genealogy that holy blood  allows one to wield great power, Use holy/unique weapons, and is marked by a brand on the user. Alm, Celica, Robin, and Chrom all have Brands. Chrom, Alm, and Celica all have unique weapons (Falchion for Chrom, Falchion/royal sword for Alm, and the Beloved Zofia for Celica.) All of them are capable of harnessing some sort of great power(Robin can use Grima's power, Chrom can perform the Awakening, and Alm and Celica have their Ultimate arts, Scendscale and Ragnarok Omega, and while using those arts, their brands can be seen glowing, hunting that they may be drawing power from the brand or from Mila and Duma themselves. There seems to be a lot of evidence pointing to them all having Major holy blood.  

Edited March 21, 2018 by DisobeyedCargo

[MCProductions]

Alm, Celica, and Chrom all definitely do. The First Exalt is stated to have blood bonded with Naga which is the same rite the Crusaders went thru, and Alm and Celica are stated to have Mila and Duma's blood in the Amiibo Dungeons, which are considered canon. Robin however is a  gray area, because while he does have a Dragon's Blood, thus in theory meeting the requisites, Grima being a lab experiment makes him an artificial dragon, which by extension means Robin has imitation holy blood, which is probably why brands appearing are so much rarer in his bloodline than say Chrom's 

[Modamy]

I agree with @MCProductions on Chrom, Alm, and Celica all having holy blood. Awakening was obviously referencing the Judgral games with the brand of the exalt and SOV's expansion on Grima and the brands of Duma and Mila on Alm and Celica seem like they are now trying to further tie the lore of the Archanean world together more closely (which makes a much stronger case for the next remakes being of FE 4 and 5, y'know just saying). Also, the idea was undoubtedly the same with Robin, as he and Grima are a reference to Julius (and Julia?) and Loptyr, so artificial dragon or not Grima was made from the blood of an actual dragon so Robin has major holy blood and his bloodline has holy blood in general.

[omegaxis1]

My theory is that Grima's case isn't because he's an artificial dragon, but rather because his blood may have been spilled earlier and was ingested and experimented on after he was defeated. So Grima's blood was taken and formed into a very diluted bloodline that needed centuries to cultivate after being spread out. Validar had possibly like 90% or so fellblood, and Robin's mother might have had 10% blood, so this caused Robin to be 100% Fellblood. Something like that. 

Alm and Celica probably don't have the case of Major Blood. Rather, I believe if anything, their Brands are a case on just their prophecy, as Echoes explains that a prophecy says that the two with the Brand will save Valentia. No one in the Rigel and Zofia kingdom never had the Brand on them before. 

In regards to the Ylissian bloodline, in Genealogy, Brands means that you have Major Blood and can wield the legendary weapon. Lissa was said to never have had a Brand, and all other Ylissian royals did have the Brand. But Lissa's was just coincidence, as her son does bear the Brand. 

[Marty]

Chrom, Lissa and Robin definitely do, although Lissa's brand never surfaced (which imo is just some bad writing for cheap supports because it makd absolutely no sense and they never explained why, it's just there for support convos).

 Grima being artificially made doesn't mean anything as he is still considered a divine (albeit fell) dragon, Naga herself refeers to him as an equal. It's just that his bloodline was convoluted.

 However, I don't remembered being stated that Validar did not have the brand- it's just said he can't handle hosting Grima. 

 Regarding Alm and Celica, I don't think neither of them have any divine dragon blood at all. Duma and Mila never made a blood pact with anyone, the brands are just results of a prophecy, and they don't seem to fade after both dragons are defeated like Grima's. 

 But I'd say it doesn't really mean much because the brands in new games were probably only meant to be references to Jugdral and aren't really developed in the same fashion they did there.

[VincentASM]

52 minutes ago, Marty said:

Regarding Alm and Celica, I don't think neither of them have any divine dragon blood at all. Duma and Mila never made a blood pact with anyone, the brands are just results of a prophecy, and they don't seem to fade after both dragons are defeated like Grima's.

The tablets in the amiibo dungeons imply that they do:

Duma and Mila bequeathed their divine blood to two champions, and brought prosperity to their respective nations. —Valentian Revelations, Chapter 37

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

Duma and Mila bequeathed their divine blood to two champions, and brought prosperity to their respective nations. —Valentian Revelations, Chapter 37

Referring to Alm and Celica or some unnamed heroes of yore?

If the former, what opportunity existed to give them dragon blood? Celica had the resurrection I guess, but I never heard any chance that Alm could have had of getting Duma's blood.

[VincentASM]

13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Referring to Alm and Celica or some unnamed heroes of yore?

If the former, what opportunity existed to give them dragon blood? Celica had the resurrection I guess, but I never heard any chance that Alm could have had of getting Duma's blood.

It is referring to unnamed heroes.

Outside of that, I don't think there's much information. My gut feeling is that the heroes were Rigel and Zofia. If you look at the new timeline, the kingdoms of Rigel and Zofia were founded not long ago. Seeing as there's a Rigel III mentioned, I imagine there was a Rigel I who was the founder of Rigel--and one of the champions.

Meanwhile, around the same timeframe as Rigel III, there is a Lima III. But rather than Lima I being the founder of Zofia, I suspect the founder was Lima I's ancestor or relative, Zofia. Actually, my memory is a bit hazy, but I feel like there's something in the game that explicitly mentions Zofia being a champion... I'll need to dig around.

EDIT

Found it. There's a villager in the Forest Village that says this:

Luthier and Delthea descend from the founder of our village, so they do. She was a mage, one who was said to be the champion Zofia’s finest disciple. For generations, children in their family have been born with a gift for magic, though only those in our village and the late king knew of it. So what fool told those damned Rigelians? *sigh*

It sounds like Zofia was a powerful mage, which makes sense since Celica is her descendant.

Edited March 22, 2018 by VincentASM

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

Outside of that, I don't think there's much information. My gut feeling is that the heroes were Rigel and Zofia. If you look at the new timeline, the kingdoms of Rigel and Zofia were founded not long ago. Seeing as there's a Rigel III mentioned, I imagine there was a Rigel I who was the founder of Rigel--and one of the champions.

Meanwhile, around the same timeframe as Rigel III, there is a Lima III. But rather than Lima I being the founder of Zofia, I suspect the founder was Lima I's ancestor or relative, Zofia. Actually, my memory is a bit hazy, but I feel like there's something in the game that explicitly mentions Zofia being a champion... I'll need to dig around.

I actually just finished or started one of the subquests which I think mentions something being an heirloom from Queen Zofia I. It was one of the ones completable by Alm in Act 3. Maybe it was the Rion Shield one?

 

And with this goes my unofficial fanfict timeline- I don't regret it though.

 

This new timeline makes it clear Rigel and Zofia seem to be relatively young political entities at 211 years old despite the Mila-Duma War being 3000 years ago. Although much of Jugdral and Archanea are even younger. How did Mila and Duma rule the lands beforehand? Young vs. old political entities, I don't care too much, as long as they get decent explanations/world development.

It's a little sparse for details, but the coveted Tellius timeline, which admittedly has a few big gaps and flaws, is a labor of love to an extent which no game actually needs save out of devotion by the developers. I appreciate the world-building devotion though.

 

And why don't they put these timelines somewhere in the games? It'd be good for fans to get more immersed in things. Having the Tellius timeline certainly adds to the feeling of the centrality of Laguz-Beorc relations (a major theme in the duology) in Telliusian history, which historicizes and enriches the present ingame moment.

[Marty]

Huh, so I suppose all kingdoms in the Archanea series must have a ruler with dragon blood in them. Boring.  But yeah, I'd say major/minor blood and the appearance of brands in Archanea doesn't work in the same way as Jugdral, even though both exist in the same world and share Naga as the major divine dragon. 

 It makes no sense for Lissa to have no brand even though she shares the same parents as Chrom and Emmeryn. Plus both her son Owain, Lucina and any other kids Chrom gets also get the brand, even though all of them have minor blood (although it's possible for them to have Grima blood in them too if you have Robin as the parent, which is fun I suppose)

 Going even further, there's also the Valentia mess. We have no idea who Alm's mother is, but it's feasible to assume that Berkut has at least minor Duma blood. Then there's Celica whose mother most likely had no Mila's blood (unless Mila just mad a pact with any of her priestesses?) making her have minor Mila blood, just like her brother.

[VincentASM]

38 minutes ago, Marty said:

Huh, so I suppose all kingdoms in the Archanea series must have a ruler with dragon blood in them. Boring.  But yeah, I'd say major/minor blood and the appearance of brands in Archanea doesn't work in the same way as Jugdral, even though both exist in the same world and share Naga as the major divine dragon. 

 It makes no sense for Lissa to have no brand even though she shares the same parents as Chrom and Emmeryn. Plus both her son Owain, Lucina and any other kids Chrom gets also get the brand, even though all of them have minor blood (although it's possible for them to have Grima blood in them too if you have Robin as the parent, which is fun I suppose)

 Going even further, there's also the Valentia mess. We have no idea who Alm's mother is, but it's feasible to assume that Berkut has at least minor Duma blood. Then there's Celica whose mother most likely had no Mila's blood (unless Mila just mad a pact with any of her priestesses?) making her have minor Mila blood, just like her brother.

Ignoring the gameplay implementation, holy blood inheritance is largely random. More importantly, there's no rule that major carrier + no carrier = minor carrier.

According to Kaga's notes, a Brand is a sign of major holy blood. So the likes of Celica, Chrom, Emmeryn, Lucina and Owain are all major carriers, assuming holy blood works the same way. Lissa I'm not sure about. She could be a minor carrier or simply a major carrier whose Brand has no yet manifested.

Anyway, dragons have always been an important part of Fire Emblem, so I'm happy they've tried to make things consistent, even if they had to retcon things.

[Marty]

15 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

Ignoring the gameplay implementation, holy blood inheritance is largely random. More importantly, there's no rule that major carrier + no carrier = minor carrier.

According to Kaga's notes, a Brand is a sign of major holy blood. So the likes of Celica, Chrom, Emmeryn, Lucina and Owain are all major carriers, assuming holy blood works the same way. Lissa I'm not sure about. She could be a minor carrier or simply a major carrier whose Brand has no yet manifested.

Anyway, dragons have always been an important part of Fire Emblem, so I'm happy they've tried to make things consistent, even if they had to retcon things.

 I see. I haven't played Genealogy yet so I wasn't sure how major/minor blood work, but that sounds pretty messy. But I agree that the retcons to make Echoes fit more with the rest of the Archanea saga are a godsend. 

 On another note, I really want to see what they could do with the genealogy remake in that regard (retcons). I assume they would explain the whole holy blood ordeal more since they've beeb referencing it in fe13&15.

[Jotari]

You don't need to go to the dubiously canon amiibo dungeons to find evidence that Celica, at least, has Mila blood. Slayde and Desaix discuss it in their memory prison. Though personally I assumed the reference meant Mila partook in the decadence a few generation back and the Zofia royal family share her blood that way (once again conflicting with Tiki's troublesome comment that Nah is the fist dragon hybrid, a claim she can make when she has a dragon hybrid daughter of her own!)

It would be a bit strange if Celica (and Alm's) birth marks indicated they have major holy blood, when their marks are meant to be unprecedented while holy blood is very much a once a generation thing. Rudolf also wields Falchion and presumably lacks a mark, so no connection between those two points (hold on, then why is Falchion Alm exclusive? Is that purely a gameplay thing? Probably not given the Royal Sword is demonstrated in plot to be Alm only).

Edited March 22, 2018 by Jotari

[Marty]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

You don't need to go to the dubiously canon amiibo dungeons to find evidence that Celica, at least, has Mila blood. Slayde and Desaix discuss it in their memory prison. Though personally I assumed the reference meant Mila partook in the decadence a few generation back and the Zofia royal family share her blood that way (once again conflicting with Tiki's troublesome comment that Nah is the fist dragon hybrid, a claim she can make when she has a dragon hybrid daughter of her own!)

It would be a bit strange if Celica (and Alm's) birth marks indicated they have major holy blood, when their marks are meant to be unprecedented while holy blood is very much a once a generation thing. Rudolf also wields Falchion and presumably lacks a mark, so no connection between those two points (hold on, then why is Falchion Alm exclusive? Is that purely a gameplay thing? Probably not given the Royal Sword is demonstrated in plot to be Alm only).

 The Royal Sword showing up in the plot as Alm-exclusive is directly related to the plot as a hint of what's to come, and the event is completely optional as well (I assume, since I never skipped the chest to see what would happen lol). In case of the Falchion, Alm is the only one (besides Celica) who can access the are that leads to it, so it's pretty self assuring, I guess. 

 But It does raise a fair point on wheter or not anyone can wear the Valentian Falchion. I haven't played FE1/11/3/12 yet, but I read in discussions before that one of the antagonists holds the Archanean Falchion before it gets to Marth (although he doesn't actually fight with it), so I'd assume anyone can hold it? After all, the intention behing it's creating was giving Valentia a weapon to end Mila and/or Duma in case they went through the degeneration.

[DisobeyedCargo]

2 minutes ago, Marty said:

 The Royal Sword showing up in the plot as Alm-exclusive is directly related to the plot as a hint of what's to come, and the event is completely optional as well (I assume, since I never skipped the chest to see what would happen lol). In case of the Falchion, Alm is the only one (besides Celica) who can access the are that leads to it, so it's pretty self assuring, I guess. 

 But It does raise a fair point on wheter or not anyone can wear the Valentian Falchion. I haven't played FE1/11/3/12 yet, but I read in discussions before that one of the antagonists holds the Archanean Falchion before it gets to Marth (although he doesn't actually fight with it), so I'd assume anyone can hold it? After all, the intention behing it's creating was giving Valentia a weapon to end Mila and/or Duma in case they went through the degeneration.

I go to Lucina and her siblings support for the whole holding Falchion thing. If the blade seems You worthy, it will since cleanly through the log, if not, it won't even cut the log. It says nothing about the Falchion not even being able to be held by anyone. 

 

Of course then we get to rudolf using it to slay/kill Mila. And he has no brand, but we don't see him actively swinging the blade around, just kinda holding it up.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Marty said:

 The Royal Sword showing up in the plot as Alm-exclusive is directly related to the plot as a hint of what's to come, and the event is completely optional as well (I assume, since I never skipped the chest to see what would happen lol). In case of the Falchion, Alm is the only one (besides Celica) who can access the are that leads to it, so it's pretty self assuring, I guess. 

 But It does raise a fair point on wheter or not anyone can wear the Valentian Falchion. I haven't played FE1/11/3/12 yet, but I read in discussions before that one of the antagonists holds the Archanean Falchion before it gets to Marth (although he doesn't actually fight with it), so I'd assume anyone can hold it? After all, the intention behing it's creating was giving Valentia a weapon to end Mila and/or Duma in case they went through the degeneration.

Gharnef keeps it in his equipment slot, but anyone can do that, even with Alm's Falchion (or the Royal Sword).

5 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

I go to Lucina and her siblings support for the whole holding Falchion thing. If the blade seems You worthy, it will since cleanly through the log, if not, it won't even cut the log. It says nothing about the Falchion not even being able to be held by anyone. 

 

Of course then we get to rudolf using it to slay/kill Mila. And he has no brand, but we don't see him actively swinging the blade around, just kinda holding it up.

It would be pretty impressive of Rudolf to be able to seal Mila without swinging the thing. Almost as impressive as him using it without a sword rank.

Perhaps there's some generic magic in the series that locks a weapon to a blood line. We've seen it plenty of times before with rather non divine prf weapons. Like Amiti or the Kia Staff.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Jotari

[Marty]

10 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

I go to Lucina and her siblings support for the whole holding Falchion thing. If the blade seems You worthy, it will since cleanly through the log, if not, it won't even cut the log. It says nothing about the Falchion not even being able to be held by anyone. 

 

Of course then we get to rudolf using it to slay/kill Mila. And he has no brand, but we don't see him actively swinging the blade around, just kinda holding it up.

Rudolf did not kill Mila. She sealed herself with the blade so it wouldnt be used to slay her brother.

[DisobeyedCargo]

1 minute ago, Marty said:

Rudolf did not kill Mila. She sealed herself with the blade so it wouldnt be used to slay her brother.

Oops, meant to say seal/kill. Though I gues I'd be wrong either way.

[Jotari]

I'm pretty sure Rudolf still fought and beat Mila though. She just sealed Falchion itself after it sealed her. Volunteeringly trapping herself to stop the sword being used on Duma wouldn't really have any advantage over just taking the sword from Rudolf to stop it sealing either her or Duma. Course she's nuts so logic need not apply.

[Marty]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm pretty sure Rudolf still fought and beat Mila though. She just sealed Falchion itself after it sealed her. Volunteeringly trapping herself to stop the sword being used on Duma wouldn't really have any advantage over just taking the sword from Rudolf to stop it sealing either her or Duma. Course she's nuts so logic need not apply.

 Yeah, that whole sequence never really made much sense to me. I'd imagine he defeated her somehow in Mila's Temple and then they took her to Duma's Temple where she assumed her Divine Dragon form, but that still doesn't explain how the Falchion ended up with her (since I assume Rudolf didn't just handle it to her voluntarily). Unless she was defeated in her temple and they transported her actual sealed-dragon-corpse all the way to the far end of Riguel. lol

[Jotari]

So according to the timeline, Rudolf has a brand, and it's the whole reason he got to be emperor as he was a distant relative (which sounds a little too similar to Ashnard imo)

Which seems to throw the entire story on its head. For one thing, it justifies his use of Falchion and the belief that he can kill Mila. But on the other side, which seems a lot more pertanant, it makes absolutely no sense. Alm and Celica's brands are talked about as if they were unique, ie, not given to every generation. Rudolf worries for his son because his son is born with the brand and is likely the hero to save Valentia. Rudolf has just as much potential in that regard. Why wasn't his father afraid of the Duma faithful killing him? Jedah's almost a hundred and fifty years old, even if Halcyon was in charge when Rudolf was born, he surely had the means to arrange one baby assassination. And why is Duma supporting the brand bearers getting the throne if the brand bearers are specifically the ones destined to kill him? It seems like they really wanted to throw Genealogy lore into the story, but didn't really consider how it actually works with the story.

And also, if Rudolf had the brand, you reckon he would have mentioned it when giving Alm to Mycen. "Like me, the child also has the brand. The Duma faithful have gotten more powerful since I was a lad, and Duma himself has grown more wild, I fear he will not be raised with the same praise as I was." Something along those lines would have solved all of it. The fact that the game makes absolutely no reference to Rudolf having a brand makes me suspect the credibility of the entire timeline. Which is a shame, as it has Macedonian Vikings invading Valentia, which is awesome.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Jotari

[VincentASM]

@Jotari

Your main question is answered near the end of the timeline.

The prophecy in Echoes is different to the one in Gaiden--and it involves a pair of Brand-bearers being born around the same time. When Rudolf was born, presumably a person with Mila's Brand didn't yet exist.

Besides, we know from the Book of Valentian Revelations in the game that divine dragon blood is required to wield Falchion. It's not a stretch to assume that major blood/a Brand is required.

Also, Duma wanted to be killed, like (Fates spoiler)...

Anankos.

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And also, if Rudolf had the brand, you reckon he would have mentioned it when giving Alm to Mycen. "Like me, the child also has the brand. The Duma faithful have gotten more powerful since I was a lad, and Duma himself has grown more wild, I fear he will not be raised with the same praise as I was." Something along those lines would have solved all of it. The fact that the game makes absolutely no reference to Rudolf having a brand makes me suspect the credibility of the entire timeline. Which is a shame, as it has Macedonian Vikings invading Valentia, which is awesome.

Well now it is official, but whether this was conceived of before SoV's release or afterwards is debatable. It's no better than "canonical manga" if it was invented afterwards.

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But on the other side, which seems a lot more pertanant, it makes absolutely no sense. Alm and Celica's brands are talked about as if they were unique, ie, not given to every generation.

Not everyone seems to get one- Berkut doesn't have one despite being a Rigel royal. And they are special in the sense that only like 10-20 people probably at any time in the entire continent would have one. And there is supposed to be auspiciousness in Alm and Celica being born very close to each other and both having Brands- although I wish we knew their birthdays to figure out how close.

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And why is Duma supporting the brand bearers getting the throne if the brand bearers are specifically the ones destined to kill him?

Degeneration makes him contradictory always an explanation.

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Rudolf has just as much potential in that regard. Why wasn't his father afraid of the Duma faithful killing him?

That is why Alm got sent to Zofia, and as for Rudolf not killing Duma, I chalk it up to the auspiciousness of the Celica birth- the reincarnating of Rigel I and Zofia I and the gods themselves or something like that.

 

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

@Jotari

Your main question is answered near the end of the timeline.

The prophecy in Echoes is different to the one in Gaiden--and it involves a pair of Brand-bearers being born around the same time. When Rudolf was born, presumably a person with Mila's Brand didn't yet exist.

Besides, we know from the Book of Valentian Revelations in the game that divine dragon blood is required to wield Falchion. It's not a stretch to assume that major blood/a Brand is required.

Also, Duma wanted to be killed, like (Fates spoiler)...

 

  Hide contents

Anankos.

 

Gaiden didn't have a prophecy at all though, right? I at least don't recall one at any point. Alm's birthmark is just a birthmark, used only to be recognised by Zeke (and as a more subtle hint than the Royal Sword that Rudolf is Alm's father).

I am, admittedly, in the process of reading the timeline (and getting distracted by many other things), but I still find it irritating that Rudolf is revealed to have a brand only in external material. It would have been so very easy to mention it in game. And it's not strictly even needed. We've seen other weapons in the series being linked to blood lines without Brands or Holy Blood being needed. Hell the Royal Sword itself is an example, unless only every few generations of Rigel's royal family were able to wield it.

Thanks for translating the timeline BTW.

EDIT: Actually, doing that further reading, it turns out the prophecy was only made after Rudolf was born, and by Halcyon. I can't recall if that gels with the game (always got the impression the prophecy was much older), but it does resolve basically all the plot holes and allows both royal families to consistently have the brand. Still kind of feel like they easily could have fitted that information into the actual game, though.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Degeneration makes him contradictory always an explanation.

The reason that Duma wants the Brand bearers to have the throne is because the Brand bearers are obviously going to be stronger, as they can wield the mightiest blade of all, the Falchion. And he values strength above all else.