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The Black Knight Fight In Writing


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I've been thinking on this for a bit. 

The Black Knight battle in Path of Radiance, Chapter 27, is the fight and "death" of the Black Knight in Path of Radiance good writing

Ideally and canonically Ike defeats the Black Knight.

But the Black Knight does not die onscreen, which would be the most satisfying resolution for Ike and the player. This is for me, where the potential problems appear in the writing for the highly important moment in PoR.

Instead what happens is that Fort Pinell collapses by a generic soldier's command. And the Black Knight, presumably but with no confirmation, dies offscreen between the collapsing castle and the injuries Ike dealt to the BK.

  • The first issue- why can the fort collapse in on itself on command? This is no evil villain's lair in a modern day action movie. How does it self-destruct? Why would someone install this? And why only use it after the BK loses when the rest of the fort was lost? Why not use it as soon as its realized the Crimeans are winning or after they've won with a Daein insider blowing it up once Elincia and Ike are inside and can't get out in time?
  • The second issue- why did the Black Knight lose yet live?
    • The Japanese of RD says a Warp Powder malfunction kept the BK's armor, sword, and soul in the castle, but not his body. There are two issues here: 
      • First, how does a soul manipulate armor and weapons?
      • Second, when did the BK warp to Pinell and why didn't he get the malfunction addressed right away- losing your body is a pretty serious problem if you ask me!
    • The International version says the BK was holding back because he found out that Greil had crippled himself and he wanted Ike to become the new Gawain at full strength so he could get that fight he craved for over two decades. This is much better an answer, but why does he sound like he actually lost in PoR?
Spoiler

Black Knight is killed

Black Knight
You've grown stronger...I...commend you...
 

Admittedly that doesn't sound exactly like death, but the ellipses sound fatal.

How did the BK survive the fort collapse- apparently the collapsing castle scarred the blessed armor and destroyed those blessings. Given Nasir can damage the BK, the armor isn't blessed to the point of invincibility except for blessed weapons like Dheginsea is. Plus he likely used some Warp Powder after the collapse to escape. These are reasonable things.

 

But there is still the point, why end the BK's life in PoR like this with a fort collapse? It denies Ike a full satisfying sense of vengeance fulfilled (though isn't revenge totally fulfilling, or so they say). 

There are three reasons for this as far as I can tell:

  • One, what if Ike fails to kill the BK? the nature of the duel in gameplay ensures there is a good chance Ike won't win even when fully trained.
  • Two, this is related to point one, except in plot instead of gameplay. The collapsing fort is needed then to kill the BK to get him out of the way so his survival doesn't force IS to rewrite the last two chapters of PoR. And it lets Ike get a modicum of satisfaction, knowing the BK is dead even if he failed to kill him himself.
  • Three, PoR was made with a sequel in the background in the planning phase the entire time. And, IS decided the BK would return in RD in advance and that his full identity would not be revealed until RD. It also provides Ike with a personal reason for being prominent in RD- pursuing his father's murderer again.

The combination of these three factors- gameplay, PoR plot, and RD plot, combined to force the BK to "die" offscreen, and the chosen method happened to be a fort collapse. If the BK died onscreen, then it'd be harder to explain how he survived in RD, and it'd be harder to hide the truth about him, since Ike could remove the BK's helmet after he passes on and see it was Zelgius (who plays a major public role in RD).

 

Would it have been better to just behead the BK in PoR and get a more satisfying resolution in that game instead of bringing him back in RD? Because as is, I can see the BK's demise in PoR as unfulfilling for the player, as mysterious, contrived, and not quite the moment of fate they were hoping for. I mean when I played PoR in my childhood it was enjoyable, but thinking on the Fort Ex Machina, it might not be so good after all.

And then there are those who say the BK's existence in RD doesn't do much. Admittedly, the BK has been tarnished in RD due to his "death" and prior association with Ashnard, so he isn't so free to do as he wishes, he has to be more secretive and in the shadows because people would be more likely to interrogate him given his past profile of actions.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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Overall, it's a well-structured sequence, and the fact that there are multiple outcomes based on how well things go is utilizing one of the core strengths of a video game, which is integrating the narrative with gameplay (though loses points for being luck based). The issues you bring up are really the only problems with it, other than hoping Aether kicks in (which I guess is at least defensible since how else would a duel work with that combat system?).

Issue 1 (why does the fort collapse?): The fort collapsing is a weak choice, and I think they could have had a more natural setting to give the Black Knight an ambiguous fate, like perhaps a sinking ship while he was unconscious (from losing) or trapped (from winning but being outgambited by the good guys who save Ike). A self-destruct plan in a medieval setting where things like explosives or other weapons of mass destruction aren't really in play just stands out as a sore thumb, with everyone asking "How?"

Issue 2 (why does BK lose yet live?): BK holding back works for me. Make what you will of the "death" quote, but it would also be less satisfying if it was readily apparent from his dialogue that he's done for. An Ike victory should feel 100% satisfying.

Issue 3 (how did he survive a fort collapse?): Pretty much same thoughts regarding issue 1. It's not the best narrative choice because it's brings up extra questions about what the deal is with his armor. An ambiguous situation where his armor wouldn't help him (ie: possibly drowned) would have at least meant you don't have to wonder whether or not his armor protects him from giant rocks and debris.

Issue 4 (why "kill" him with a fort, regardless of fight outcome?): Well, you did answer your own question. It really comes down to the ambiguous fate thing. I haven't seen/read the "Ike loses" dialogue, but I guess that the sense of closure would be stronger if Ike's actions when escaping directly attributed to BK "dying", like if he intentionally struck a load-bearing support or something.

Final Question (would it be better to confirm kill him and not include him in the sequel?): Nah, he's a great character. Bringing him back was the right move. His presence makes for an interesting B plot and a strong motivator for the player to beat a great rival.

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Meh, honestly the Black Knight in general IMO is a bad idea and should have been replaced wholesale by Ashnard, who is more interesting snd has better villain resonance with Ike. The BK's characterization in RD, however, does indeed ruin what good there was to him in POR, with apparently him being some benevolent teacher to Ike instead of some murder hobo who kills a man because he can.

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12 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Instead what happens is that Fort Pinell collapses by a generic soldier's command. And the Black Knight, presumably but with no confirmation, dies offscreen between the collapsing castle and the injuries Ike dealt to the BK.

It's Nados Castle where Ike and the Black Knight fought not Fort Pinell. Fort Pinell is another location entirely, and is located to the north of Nados Castle.

9 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

The BK's characterization in RD, however, does indeed ruin what good there was to him in POR, with apparently him being some benevolent teacher to Ike instead of some murder hobo who kills a man because he can.

,That sounds far worse than what IS came up with, though. Also, he's hardly a "benevolent" teacher to Ike, given that the BK killed Ike's father.

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11 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

It's Nados Castle where Ike and the Black Knight fought not Fort Pinell. Fort Pinell is another location entirely, and is located to the north of Nados Castle.

,That sounds far worse than what IS came up with, though. Also, he's hardly a "benevolent" teacher to Ike, given that the BK killed Ike's father.

It's not worse by much. He literally kills Greil for the thrill, and then threatens to torture and possibly rape Mist. I know he shouldn't be characterized as benevolent; RD characterizes him as such, however, with Ike seeing him as a worthy opponent and his last teacher, rather than a monster.

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10 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

It's Nados Castle where Ike and the Black Knight fought not Fort Pinell. Fort Pinell is another location entirely, and is located to the north of Nados Castle.

In retrospect I realized I confused the two places. I tend to do that since PoR says "Nados and Pinell are the last line of defense for Melior and both must fall". Bertram defends Pinell, and the BK Nados. Perhaps its because you just storm into Nados while Pinell you fight entirely outside of it that contributes.

 

21 hours ago, Johann said:

I haven't seen/read the "Ike loses" dialogue

SF has most of PoR's script, and looking over the dialogue of 27-2 (the duel) and 28, the chapter thereafter, I notice Ike doesn't get hung up on failing to kill the BK.

If he wins, he says these things (with some extraneous lines I've removed):

Spoiler

Ike
...Father......I...finally...I stopped him...Father...

Mist
B-Brother! Thank goodness...I'm so happy you're alive!

Ike
Mist... I avenged Father.

Mist
I know.

Ike
Even now, though, I'm not as good as Father was. There's no way I could ever defeat him...Defeating the Black Knight was my way...I wanted to show him how strong Father really was.

Mist
I know, Ike. I know.

Ike
Our Father was the best in the world...A great man.

Mist
That's right! Dad was great...and so was Mom...And so are you, Brother. I love you all! I'm so proud of my fantastic, wonderful family!

Titania
Ike! Mist! Both of you...You did so well...

Soren
...

Ike
I really had you worried, didn't I? But now it's--

Titania
Don't say anything. I understand.

Ike
Let's get back to the others...I can't do anything else today.
 

If he loses he Nasir sacrifices himself and everything from Titania's "Ike! Mist!" on down is said. No lines about him griping about losing to the BK.

It appears Ike doesn't really mourn defeat (although the "I can't do anything else today" could be filled with an exhausted, despairing tone in this version), he moves from the BK to address the final concerns of PoR. A sense of guilt over letting Nasir die seems to fill Ike's mind when he loses, and this could be contributed directly to his failure to defeat the BK. The next chapter's opening varies depending on whether Nasir lives or not, which seems to support the idea Ike feels guilty, even if he doesn't say "I'm sorry" to Ena ever.

The Black Knight, cold-blooded murderer of Ike's father, has disappeared within the collapsed castle. However, Nasir has been lost with him. In the end, he did not reveal the contents of his heart, but instead left another mystery with his enigmatic parting words. What was he trying to tell Ike? What did he hope to gain in this war? What was he searching for? With yet another memory to shoulder, Ike must fight on.

The BK victory version opens with this:

Ike has avenged his father by defeating the Black Knight in single combat. That night, he sleeps until well past dawn. It is the first time since Greil's death that he has done so.

If Ike retreats from the duel, just to mention this he says this:

Black Knight
Will you flee? How appropriate. Tuck tail and run, child of Gawain! It is what dogs do best, after all. I like how you tremble with fear at the realization that you are no match for me. It suits you.

Ike
Foul villain! I do not flee. I will never turn my back on you and run away!
A little strange, but I guess Ike doesn't want to admit he is too weak, even though he knows better than to fight the BK?

 

His death quote specifically for this fight is a little short and dull, I'd expect some words from the BK to follow:

Ike: Urgh… Not…here… Father…forgive…

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11 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

It's not worse by much. He literally kills Greil for the thrill, and then threatens to torture and possibly rape Mist. I know he shouldn't be characterized as benevolent; RD characterizes him as such, however, with Ike seeing him as a worthy opponent and his last teacher, rather than a monster.

That did rub me the wrong way too. The only thing the Black Knight got out of killing Greil was sohe could look in the mirror and tell himself he was the world's greatest swordsman. It makes him come across as a petty murderer, instead of 'the last true knight' and 'Ike's final teacher'. 

The other thing I did't like about the Black Knight was the him holding back part. I can get why they added it and the Japanese explanation was very bas as well, but did't they already establish that Warp Powder was something that was very draining to use? Would't that be a reason enough for BK being able to get defeated?

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One thing that strikes me as a little clumsy is that Path of Radiance seemed to be setting up the Black Knight having some sort of grudge against Greil but then promptly forgetting about it in the sequel.

BK seems pretty hateful when speaking to Greil, especially in his comments regarding Mist, Greil says he's the one who made BK that way and when Mist joins the fight against him in castle Nados the Black Knight says he finally has the chance to wipe out the entire Greil family tree. I really thought that either he was supposed to be very close to Greil's wife or Greil kicked him out, or some other reason that left him with an axe to grind. In RD however there's not a single trace of any ill will towards Greil, even after he's already working with Sephiran for some time. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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11 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

One thing that strikes me as a little clumsy is that Path of Radiance seemed to be setting up the Black Knight having some sort of grudge against Greil but then promptly forgetting about it in the sequel.

BK seems pretty hateful when speaking to Greil, especially in his comments regarding Mist, Greil says he's the one who made BK that way and when Mist joins the fight against him in castle Nados the Black Knight says he finally has the chance to wipe out the entire Greil family tree. I really thought that either he was supposed to be very close to Greil's wife or Greil kicked him out, or some other reason that left him with an axe to grind. In RD however there's not a single trace of any ill will towards Greil, even after he's already working with Sephiran for some time. 

Yeah, actually, like maybe Greil had ostracized him when he found out he was Branded to advance in his own career, which proved to him that all humans were horrible, firmly driving him into the arms of Sephiran. As it stands, his motivation is "because you were nice to me" which is one of my least favorite villain motivations ever.

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