Nohr: A country of villains?

[Water Mage]

I was replaying Conquest, when I realized something:

A lot of the playabe Nohrian characters’ personalities are actually very similar, if not th same, to many villainous archetypes.

For example, we Peri, a serial killer with a trauma, Beruka, an orphan assassin, Niles, a spiteful man who resents the happiness of other(it wouldn’t suprise me if Niles killed innocent people out spite and jealousy before metting Leo), Charlotte, a gold digger, Nyx, who once killed killed many innocents(possibly hundreds) for her own amusement and the Royals and neutral characters fit this as well. Leo and Camilla definitely have villian-like personalities, Gunter is a man motivated by revenge, and if Corrin ever turned evil I’m pretty sure Jakob would still be loyal to them, making him a potential villain.

As you can see, many of these characters have committed unforgivable crimes and even may have crossed the so-called Moral Event Horizon, but even then, they’re still on your side.

What do you guys think of this? Do you think it was intentional that many nohrian characters have villainous personalities?

[redlight]

I see Nohrian playable character as flawed people. They have their own issues and I guess that's what makes me like them much more than the Hoshidans

Edited March 30, 2018 by silveraura25

[nosef]

Arthur is a fanatic , Kaeton a monster , Odin Laslow and Selena are the goofy type of vilain ( like team rocket) , Felicia is deadly  maid (black laggon but clumsy). Benny is a troll who leave under a bridge and I have no idea for Effie and Silas .

[X-Naut]

Okay but what about Arthur?

There are also a couple less-than-pure characters on the Hoshidan side. There's Oboro's raging xenophobia which has some justification but we also have Reina's bloodlust, Takumi's resentment, and Ryoma can be a dastard when he sees fit.

[Armagon]

Considering how much Fates tries to push that Hoshido is in the right and Nohr is in the wrong, i'd say it's definitely intentional. It's also why i find the Nohrians playable characters a lot more interesting, because they aren't pure, goody-two-shoes angels like most Hoshidians are.

[redlight]

1 minute ago, nosef said:

Arthur is a fanatic , Kaeton a monster , Odin Laslow and Selena are the goofy type of vilain ( like team rocket) , Felicia is deadly  maid (black laggon but clumsy). Benny is a troll who leave under a bridge and I have no idea for Effie and Silas .

Hungry hungry hippo who breaks stuff. Kinda like Boo from Dragon Ball
Silas is a henchman

[Morswo]

It is of course intentional, in the story is Hoshido the peaceful kingdom and Nohr the aggresive kingdom.

[Water Mage]

35 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Okay but what about Arthur?

I think Arthur is sorta meant to be like Elise is to the Nohr Royals, an exception.

And yes, I know Nohr is meant to be the agressive country and all, but it’s still interesting to see characters who would most definitely be villains in other games, be “heroes” for a lack of better term. 

They don’t even bother to the hide their flaws.

 

[KymilliaWIN]

It was definitely intentional, and it oddly made me like a lot of the Nohrians more than the Hoshidans. While it did seriously bother me with some characters (like Peri, who outright shouldn't have been put in a position such as hers), for the most part it seemed like it also built some interesting characters for me.

I had a bigger problem with the fact that "Nohr is evil" created a dichotomy with "Hoshido is good". As a result a lot of what Hoshido did throughout Birthright and Conquest really bothered me, but I felt like I was supposed to just accept it as just. The Nohrian "good guys" often were aware what they were doing was painful for Corrin and also pretty morally wrong, but they also went out of their way to reduce casualties for Corrin's sake, even if begrudgingly. We then had Hoshido, who while being wronged by Nohr before the game, happily leave a trail of bodies as they cut a swath through Nohr. The ninja's were presented as honorable, despite being assassins and spies like Beruka and Niles. Oboro's blatant Xenophobia was a problem for me because unlike the flaws of the villainous Nohrians, it's never really suggested that she's even remotely in the wrong. 

But yeah, it was definitely intentional with how they presented both sides of the conflict. Interesting though because IS is a fan of reusing concepts on characters, it would be fun if in future games we fought villains that blatantly reminded us of the characters we got to use in Conquest!

[DragonFlames]

3 hours ago, KymilliaWIN said:

It was definitely intentional, and it oddly made me like a lot of the Nohrians more than the Hoshidans. While it did seriously bother me with some characters (like Peri, who outright shouldn't have been put in a position such as hers), for the most part it seemed like it also built some interesting characters for me.

I had a bigger problem with the fact that "Nohr is evil" created a dichotomy with "Hoshido is good". As a result a lot of what Hoshido did throughout Birthright and Conquest really bothered me, but I felt like I was supposed to just accept it as just. The Nohrian "good guys" often were aware what they were doing was painful for Corrin and also pretty morally wrong, but they also went out of their way to reduce casualties for Corrin's sake, even if begrudgingly. We then had Hoshido, who while being wronged by Nohr before the game, happily leave a trail of bodies as they cut a swath through Nohr. The ninja's were presented as honorable, despite being assassins and spies like Beruka and Niles. Oboro's blatant Xenophobia was a problem for me because unlike the flaws of the villainous Nohrians, it's never really suggested that she's even remotely in the wrong. 

But yeah, it was definitely intentional with how they presented both sides of the conflict. Interesting though because IS is a fan of reusing concepts on characters, it would be fun if in future games we fought villains that blatantly reminded us of the characters we got to use in Conquest!

Definitely agreed here.
Neither the Nohrians nor the Hoshidans are "good" people.
The Hoshidan royalty constantly spouts justice and honour and then does everything to trample on these ideals despite calling the Nohrians out for supposedly doing the same, making them look like giant hypocrites. Ryoma is a Yandere who'd rather kill their sibling than see them side with anyone but him, Takumi is a self-absorbed asshole who, despite apparently valuing honour, doesn't hesitate to shoot a defenceless little girl, Hinoka is incredibly selfish and by far the most xenophobic out of her siblings, and Sakura is too shy and inoffensive to call her siblings out for their bullshittery.
Among the less important folk, there is Subaki who is too occupied with his own perfection to care about anything or anyone else, Hana, who only cares about Sakura's well being and probably couldn't care less if the world went to shit, Saizo and Kagero, who would kill just about anyone Ryoma wants gone, Azama is a misanthropic sociopath, and Reina is basically Hoshido's version of Peri.

Needless to say, if you had told me that Hoshido was truly the bad guy, I would have believed you.
Though both royal families and a certain blue-haired mutant employ the rather villainous "kill first, ask questions later" and "with us or against us" mentalities. Which is why I have come around to believe that the peak of Corrin's naiveté was ever trusting them in the first place. 

[Michelaar]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

Definitely agreed here.
Neither the Nohrians nor the Hoshidans are "good" people.
The Hoshidan royalty constantly spouts justice and honour and then does everything to trample on these ideals despite calling the Nohrians out for supposedly doing the same, making them look like giant hypocrites. Ryoma is a Yandere who'd rather kill their sibling than see them side with anyone but him, Takumi is a self-absorbed asshole who, despite apparently valuing honour, doesn't hesitate to shoot a defenceless little girl, Hinoka is incredibly selfish and by far the most xenophobic out of her siblings, and Sakura is too shy and inoffensive to call her siblings out for their bullshittery.
Among the less important folk, there is Subaki who is too occupied with his own perfection to care about anything or anyone else, Hana, who only cares about Sakura's well being and probably couldn't care less if the world went to shit, Saizo and Kagero, who would kill just about anyone Ryoma wants gone, Azama is a misanthropic sociopath, and Reina is basically Hoshido's version of Peri.

Needless to say, if you had told me that Hoshido was truly the bad guy, I would have believed you.
Though both royal families and a certain blue-haired mutant employ the rather villainous "kill first, ask questions later" and "with us or against us" mentalities. Which is why I have come around to believe that the peak of Corrin's naiveté was ever trusting them in the first place. 

I don't really agree with a lot of things you said. Ryoma is not like that at all, and I can understand perfectly well why he'd be mad if you would choose to stand with his enemy. Takumi, alright, I see your point, though he is more than just an asshole. I don't really see how Hinoka is selfish? And Reina is only like Peri that she likes blood, but she is a lot less 'extreme' about it. She wouldn't kill any random person, unlike Peri.

[CA Valkyrie]

I agree that the personalities and backstories of the Nohrian characters are much darker than their Hoshidan counterparts.  But this in no way makes them evil, nor does it make the Hoshidans all-righteous.  Many of the characters have reasons and motivations for how they are, and this gives them multiple dimensions into their character outside of the typical good/evil dynamic. 

- Peri is still suffering from the trauma of witnessing her mother die at the hands of one of their servants

- Charlotte, while a gold digger, is motivated to make money to support her family

- Effie eats like pig so she can train harder to be a better retainer to Elise

- Leo, suffers from an inferiority complex to his older siblings and acts the way he does from his own insecurities, which I'm sure a lot of as can relate to

- Camilla's maternal personality stems from the lack of motherly love in her own life.  It can seem overbearing and like she's over-compensating, but when it comes down to it her heart is in the right place.

- Jakob is a dick to everyone outside of Corrin, but his unwavering loyalty is still admirable.

 

[eclipse]

Eh.

I'll take those archetypes over whatever the hell passes for character in most of the kids.  There's some neat supports (I ship Hisame and Sophie because it actually makes sense), but a lot of it feels like checking off the boxes for personality types.  I still struggle to find good things to say about Nina's character.

[Water Mage]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Eh.

I'll take those archetypes over whatever the hell passes for character in most of the kids.  There's some neat supports (I ship Hisame and Sophie because it actually makes sense), but a lot of it feels like checking off the boxes for personality types.  I still struggle to find good things to say about Nina's character.

Now that you mention, most of the Nohrian kids aren’t morally ambiguous at all, compared. Actually, most of them seem to have a great relationship with their parent. The interesting thing is this is the opposite in Hoshido. Many Hoshidans kids actually have a pretty bad relationship with their parents, suchs Shiro, Mitama, Asugi, Hisame, Rhajat and while Caeldori gets along with her father, you can tell that there’s still a problem in their relationship.

[Ertrick36]

I never really saw anyone in the Nohrian cast as villainous except the non-playable Nohrians, nor do I see the playable Hoshidans overly righteous apart from the obvious ones like Ryoma.

Now, the Nohrian cast might be varying degrees of evil.  But not villainous; I feel that term would imply deliberate malice coming from a stable mind.  The most "villainous" in that sense would be Niles, and he's merely just a coy dick to most people and all too eager to perform dirty work for Leo.  He's effectively a villain on a leash; Leo's tool for misdeeds.  Though that is an interesting position to explore, to be sure.

9 hours ago, KymilliaWIN said:

Oboro's blatant Xenophobia was a problem for me because unlike the flaws of the villainous Nohrians, it's never really suggested that she's even remotely in the wrong.

I think the fact that her xenophobia goes away whenever she reaches a high support level with some Nohrians kind of implies that the trait was a flaw.  Also the fact that it nearly drives her to attack you when you first encounter her as an ally in Birthright implies that it's a flaw.  Or the fact that her making that demon face (a direct result of her xenophobia) makes people scared/uncomfortable also implies that it's a flaw.  Or that Corrin, the main character who is supposed to be the moral center of the whole conflict, straight up tells Oboro that not all Nohrians are bad people blatantly points out that Oboro's xenophobia is wrong.

I think there's plenty to imply that she's in the wrong.  I have no idea what you're talking about when you say her racism isn't implied to be bad.  Unless you're saying that the Nohrians deserve it, but given your praising of them and the fact that characters like Silas and Arthur exist in that faction, I highly doubt that's what you mean.

1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

Now that you mention, most of the Nohrian kids aren’t morally ambiguous at all, compared. Actually, most of them seem to have a great relationship with their parent. The interesting thing is this is the opposite in Hoshido. Many Hoshidans kids actually have a pretty bad relationship with their parents, suchs Shiro, Mitama, Asugi, Hisame, Rhajat and while Caeldori gets along with her father, you can tell that there’s still a problem in their relationship.

I don't think any of the children are remotely morally ambiguous.  Even Nina, a thief, is morally righteous, and Asugi is just spiteful more than he is greedy or malicious.

But yeah, the "bad relationship" thing is part of what I like about the 2nd Gen characters I do like.  It's more realistic, being that all the children were abandoned in hyperbolic time realms.  I can't imagine being particularly fond of someone I've only seen for probably two weeks' worth of time compared to maybe fourteen-or-so years.  I may not necessarily hate them, but I wouldn't be looking forward to seeing them the way Midori or Kana do.

[Atticus Lee]

Well, Nohr is supposed to be a destitute country. Beruka, Niles, and Charlotte are victims of the lower-class issues in that, and the royal siblings are victims of Western Royal Court shenanigans.

But reasons aside, I feel you're really stretching some of these character traits and some of them outright wrong. You can't just assume that Niles killed innocent people out of spite; he was just doing standard crimes/thievery to "survive" and he doesn't resent the happiness of others, he resents when others have had blissfulness but no suffering. Nyx killed people out of an accidental magic mishap that she deeply regrets. Gunter may have mentioned wanting to avenge his family by using Corrin, but outside of being controlled by Garon, he never actually physically did anything in that vein. Peri was simplified but I guess it's correct either way.

[Water Mage]

2 hours ago, Atticus Lee said:

Well, Nohr is supposed to be a destitute country. Beruka, Niles, and Charlotte are victims of the lower-class issues in that, and the royal siblings are victims of Western Royal Court shenanigans.

But reasons aside, I feel you're really stretching some of these character traits and some of them outright wrong. You can't just assume that Niles killed innocent people out of spite; he was just doing standard crimes/thievery to "survive" and he doesn't resent the happiness of others, he resents when others have had blissfulness but no suffering. Nyx killed people out of an accidental magic mishap that she deeply regrets. Gunter may have mentioned wanting to avenge his family by using Corrin, but outside of being controlled by Garon, he never actually physically did anything in that vein. Peri was simplified but I guess it's correct either way.

Actually Nyx herself she admits she killed people for fun, while experimenting with spells. The incident you mention was simply what set her curse off. She even mentions that she cast the spell in jest. Regardless, my point is not that she killed innocents, and I can tell we would end up derailing the thread discussing it so let’s just drop it, but rather that her personality fit the villains “archetypes”.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Water Mage

[Frenzify]

On 3/30/2018 at 2:28 PM, Armagon said:

Considering how much Fates tries to push that Hoshido is in the right and Nohr is in the wrong, i'd say it's definitely intentional. It's also why i find the Nohrians playable characters a lot more interesting, because they aren't pure, goody-two-shoes angels like most Hoshidians are.

As much as it may be overstating it to separate them with a hard line of good verses evil, I was also about to comment on how I felt like their greyness made the Nohrian's vastly more interesting to me before seeing this comment. With the exception of Orochi, all of my favourite Fates characters come from Nohr. Even if a couple of them may be extreme in their flawed mentalities they're at least not boring. Orochi is really the only one in Hoshido I like because she's really the most fun character there. I'm incredibly indifferent to most of the rest of them, with a couple I dislike.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Frenzify

[KymilliaWIN]

On 2018-03-30 at 11:09 PM, Ertrick36 said:

I think the fact that her xenophobia goes away whenever she reaches a high support level with some Nohrians kind of implies that the trait was a flaw.  Also the fact that it nearly drives her to attack you when you first encounter her as an ally in Birthright implies that it's a flaw.  Or the fact that her making that demon face (a direct result of her xenophobia) makes people scared/uncomfortable also implies that it's a flaw.  Or that Corrin, the main character who is supposed to be the moral center of the whole conflict, straight up tells Oboro that not all Nohrians are bad people blatantly points out that Oboro's xenophobia is wrong.

I think there's plenty to imply that she's in the wrong.  I have no idea what you're talking about when you say her racism isn't implied to be bad.  Unless you're saying that the Nohrians deserve it, but given your praising of them and the fact that characters like Silas and Arthur exist in that faction, I highly doubt that's what you mean.

You're absolutely right. I'm really unsure what I was thinking. Sorry. I think my issue was that even when she realised she was wrong, she could never change her traction. But as you said, it is a flaw acknowledged in the game.

 

Also I feel like I want to point out I do actually really enjoy oboro as a character. And most of the cast. I just had a bit of an issue with the fairly skewed presentation of nohr as evil and hoshido as good.

Edited April 1, 2018 by KymilliaWIN

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 3/31/2018 at 4:16 AM, Water Mage said:

Actually Nyx herself she admits she killed people for fun, while experimenting with spells. The incident you mention was simply what set her curse off. She even mentions that she cast the spell in jest. Regardless, my point is not that she killed innocents, and I can tell we would end up derailing the thread discussing it so let’s just drop it, but rather that her personality fit the villains “archetypes”.

Well if she's a cold-blooded murderer, it makes her questionable outfit a little less problematic, not entirely, but a little less so.

 

On 3/30/2018 at 8:19 PM, Water Mage said:

Now that you mention, most of the Nohrian kids aren’t morally ambiguous at all, compared. Actually, most of them seem to have a great relationship with their parent. The interesting thing is this is the opposite in Hoshido. Many Hoshidans kids actually have a pretty bad relationship with their parents, suchs Shiro, Mitama, Asugi, Hisame, Rhajat and while Caeldori gets along with her father, you can tell that there’s still a problem in their relationship.

A comment on the inferiority of Japanese/East Asian parenting? Maybe they should hug and kiss their kids once in a while, public and private displays of affection in youth can make for more expressive grown individuals later who will have healthier sex lives. Or so I heard regarding Japan.