Worst Level in Fates?

[joshcja]

On 4/1/2018 at 10:20 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Axe infantry that don't earn my respect, and especially bad axe infantry, of which Charlotte is the latter, are unwanted, and more to the point, unwelcome on my team. I mean, sure, she might be a good pair up bot, but at the end of the day, she is still taking up a unit slot that I could have put to better use...

I would imagine that, too, is based on RNG luck... Takumi has 50 attack counting Bowfaire. Xander has 27 base defense. Giving him 10 levels, he'd have 32 defence. After WTD, we're looking at 16 damage. Granted, that could be lowered by stuff like Rally Defense and Lily's Poise, but that's not exactly what I would call "taking so little base damage"... especially since it assumes you lucked out and neither Rend Heaven nor Vengeance activated. And this just makes me hesitant to take your word for it that Xander is an automatic breeze through Takumi. Which is not helped by speed and defense practically being mutually exclusive in terms of pair up bonuses. And my point is that because of Takumi's stats and the wall being a PITA, I'm under even more pressure to not get screwed since failing means needing to go through that again.

Any time after Offspring Seals become relevant is lategame, by my standards.

When deploying a unit wins a map that unit is worth deploying.

------------------------------------------

Going by your logic... Xander lives Taco dies ez win???

Lets assume 16 base +proc is a threat to xander.... somehow?

32 base +2 (meal) +2 (tonic) +4 (rally) +2 (Chivalry) +2 (demosel) +4 (Enfeeble) = 46 minimim effective def. For clarity this is a whopping 2 base from taco.

His max effective def here is 62+/-2. Going with the average Taco deals -14 damage before procs.

Lol.

-----------------------------

Or be sane, and just throw stacked brave/lighting at his ass with full guard guage for double zero chance of death.

Edited April 3, 2018 by joshcja

[De Geso]

Oh great, it's another "Levant doesn't like Fighters" episode. We just had this one!

[Shadow Mir]

12 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Oh great, it's another "Levant doesn't like Fighters" episode. We just had this one!

What the bloody hell do you expect when they're the one class that's more consistent than any other about having crippling weaknesses and nothing noteworthy to make up for their weaknesses? I find even knights to be more useful, despite the constant complaints I see about them. While there are some good fighters, they're the exception and not the rule... and they're the ones that are good in spite of their class, rather than because of it.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dark Holy Elf]

22 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I would imagine that, too, is based on RNG luck... Takumi has 50 attack counting Bowfaire. Xander has 27 base defense. Giving him 10 levels, he'd have 32 defence. After WTD, we're looking at 16 damage. Granted, that could be lowered by stuff like Rally Defense and Lily's Poise, but that's not exactly what I would call "taking so little base damage"... especially since it assumes you lucked out and neither Rend Heaven nor Vengeance activated. And this just makes me hesitant to take your word for it that Xander is an automatic breeze through Takumi. Which is not helped by speed and defense practically being mutually exclusive in terms of pair up bonuses. And my point is that because of Takumi's stats and the wall being a PITA, I'm under even more pressure to not get screwed since failing means needing to go through that again.

Sure, we'll say Xander takes 16, even though it's possible to get that lower through the various ways josh mentions (at the very least you should acknowledge Defender and Defence Tonic, since those will always be in play). I'm used to single digits myself but it makes little difference.

-Rend Heaven adds half Xander's strength in damage... like 20ish at most.

-Vegenace adds half of Takumi's lost HP... 25 at most.

Can Xander survive 16+25 = 41 damage? Yes he can; his base + an HP Tonic is already enough.

I'm with you on the "I don't want to restart a long, difficult map" thing, so I value the fact Xander with an easily achieved setup (that doesn't even require you using a fighter!) hands me a victory against that boss, with perfect reliability. So keep that in mind next time you play the game, and you won't have to come whining to us about how that boss is unfair.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Sure, we'll say Xander takes 16, even though it's possible to get that lower through the various ways josh mentions (at the very least you should acknowledge Defender and Defence Tonic, since those will always be in play). I'm used to single digits myself but it makes little difference.

-Rend Heaven adds half Xander's strength in damage... like 20ish at most.

-Vegenace adds half of Takumi's lost HP... 25 at most.

Can Xander survive 16+25 = 41 damage? Yes he can; his base + an HP Tonic is already enough.

I'm with you on the "I don't want to restart a long, difficult map" thing, so I value the fact Xander with an easily achieved setup (that doesn't even require you using a fighter!) hands me a victory against that boss, with perfect reliability. So keep that in mind next time you play the game, and you won't have to come whining to us about how that boss is unfair.

This is just me, but if nearly all strategies are cut off due to being too risky (or at the least prove ineffective), and I'm pigeonholed into using one very specific strategy to win, that's grounds for me to label a boss as unfair.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Mandokarla]

Takumi really isn't that bad. You very much should have a decent mage and a lightning tome by now, or a brave weapon. Camilla with a brave axe did good work on him, Xander still does the job as mentioned, any mage worth mentioning can deal with him pretty well with a lightning tome (if you don't have Ophelia by this point you are missing the best non-corrin unit in the game). Staves can fuck with his avoid if you need it to, and enfeeble exists. Takumi has always been the restful phase of that map for me. 

[joshcja]

10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

This is just me, but if nearly all strategies are cut off due to being too risky (or at the least prove ineffective), and I'm pigeonholed into using one very specific strategy to win, that's grounds for me to label a boss as unfair.

No.

Every single late game bosskill option is viable vs CH23 Taco.

He's on a throne with enemies nearby so setting up full guage on any number of units you care to use of any type can be done in complete safety. It does not matter if he venge crits from 1 hp because complete immunity is complete immunity.

He's also not stave or aura immune so any weapon in the game can and will have 100% disp hit.

Throwing Xander/Sorc at him is simply a reliable brainless 0 setup option that you will always have on hand because wall.

Edited April 3, 2018 by joshcja

[Moblin Major General]

1 hour ago, Mandokarla said:

(if you don't have Ophelia by this point you are missing the best non-corrin unit in the game).

Not only is that subjective, he doesn't train units he doesn't use, and thus because he doesn't like Odin as a unit, he never uses him, and thus he never uses Ophelia. He doesn't like to have to plan out his entire run around one thing, and I don't blame him for thinking that way.

@joshcja You'd think that, wouldn't you? Not all of us want to plan that far ahead for runs. Unorthodox strategies might work a lot of the time because this is a strategy game, but not all of us are Sun Tzu, and your strategies carry too much risk. LMC has to remain objective because every time he gambles, he loses. The objective fact is, Takumi is very difficult in a vacuum, that LMC happens to constantly be in. You aren't him, and you aren't constrained by the game constantly shitting on you.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Hylian Air Force

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

No.

Every single late game bosskill option is viable vs CH23 Taco.

He's on a throne with enemies nearby so setting up full guage on any number of units you care to use of any type can be done in complete safety. It does not matter if he venge crits from 1 hp because complete immunity is complete immunity.

He's also not stave or aura immune so any weapon in the game can and will have 100% disp hit.

Throwing Xander/Sorc at him is simply a reliable brainless 0 setup option that you will always have on hand because wall.

Wow, you're... I would say something, but as usual, the sheer stupidity leaves me at a loss for words. 

2 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

Takumi really isn't that bad. You very much should have a decent mage and a lightning tome by now, or a brave weapon. Camilla with a brave axe did good work on him, Xander still does the job as mentioned, any mage worth mentioning can deal with him pretty well with a lightning tome (if you don't have Ophelia by this point you are missing the best non-corrin unit in the game). Staves can fuck with his avoid if you need it to, and enfeeble exists. Takumi has always been the restful phase of that map for me. 

I quite honestly fail to see how you can think this - Takumi is almost Kotaro-level evasive (almost coming from the fact that Kotaro had Duelist's Blow). The only way I could see this is with Bowbreaker, which is a level 15 skill, and thus highly unlikely to be had short of skill buying unless you either married Felicia to Leo or Odin or married Jakob to Nyx. The brave axe has a very shaky 55 base hit, and thus trying to hit a Kotaro-level evasive boss with that??? I might as well be trying to hit with Dynamic Punch... without No Guard. Not to mention unless I sealed Camilla into Berserker or an oni-line class, which never happens because it's me and Berserkers are ugly as sin, and I hate ugly, and in the case of Oni, she needs to marry Corrin to get it, she's a dead duck should she whiff. Lightning has only 1 might. Poking at him with a 1 Might weapon is hella unappealing when my Sorcerer is a goner should Vengeance activate.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

1 hour ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Not only is that subjective, he doesn't train units he doesn't use, and thus because he doesn't like Odin as a unit, he never uses him, and thus he never uses Ophelia. He doesn't like to have to plan out his entire run around one thing, and I don't blame him for thinking that way.

@joshcja You'd think that, wouldn't you? Not all of us want to plan that far ahead for runs. Unorthodox strategies might work a lot of the time because this is a strategy game, but not all of us are Sun Tzu, and your strategies carry too much risk. LMC has to remain objective because every time he gambles, he loses. The objective fact is, Takumi is very difficult in a vacuum, that LMC happens to constantly be in. You aren't him, and you aren't constrained by the game constantly shitting on you.

You can count to 10 right? If not I'm so sorry.

Ophelia is objectively broken because math says so.

No.

If you throw a Sorc at the wall they're xl15 now Levant.

Edited April 3, 2018 by joshcja

[Moblin Major General]

29 minutes ago, joshcja said:

You can count to 10 right? If not I'm so sorry.

Ophelia is objectively broken because math says so.

Math means nothing if probability lies like it does in this game. If math was as obective as you say it is, gambling would be rather lucrative. But the game is like the casino, it doesn't tell you all that it does, and you can be punished if you find it out for yourself.

[Shadow Mir]

41 minutes ago, joshcja said:

You can count to 10 right? If not I'm so sorry.

Ophelia is objectively broken because math says so.

No.

If you throw a Sorc at the wall they're xl15 now Levant.

That's IF I have one, and anyone not named Xander is likely going to croak under the pressure. Not to mention if I stay up there too long, AKA more than one turn, I get lunged, and might as well kiss that poor soul night-night.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Mandokarla]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

I quite honestly fail to see how you can think this - Takumi is almost Kotaro-level evasive (almost coming from the fact that Kotaro had Duelist's Blow). The only way I could see this is with Bowbreaker, which is a level 15 skill, and thus highly unlikely to be had short of skill buying unless you either married Felicia to Leo or Odin or married Jakob to Nyx. The brave axe has a very shaky 55 base hit, and thus trying to hit a Kotaro-level evasive boss with that??? I might as well be trying to hit with Dynamic Punch... without No Guard. Not to mention unless I sealed Camilla into Berserker or an oni-line class, which never happens because it's me and Berserkers are ugly as sin, and I hate ugly, and in the case of Oni, she needs to marry Corrin to get it, she's a dead duck should she whiff. Lightning has only 1 might. Poking at him with a 1 Might weapon is hella unappealing when my Sorcerer is a goner should Vengeance activate.

My Ophelia didn't have or need bowbreaker. I had a guard gauge from his minions set up, somewhat easy to do, and Ophelia crit needlessly anyway. 93% ish hit chance, 40 ish crit. Ophelia prf weapon more than did the job. I did this yesterday. 

I also still had 4 or so freeze staff uses if I needed them, which I didn't. I did this yesterday on Lunatic. Ophelia was a level 35 Witch at the time, and only my healers are currently under xl10, so I've not lost much exp. Everyone is contributing their fair share, even Izana -- I found I haven't ever given him enough credit, he's quite helpful as a healer/rally bot. My Camilla could have handled it as well, though she's actually levelcapped. She's just too good. 

Also, even if we weaken Ophelia to her level 30 witch state, she still has (with her Corrin mother pairup) ~37 Mag,  against Takumi's mere 13 res. Lightning would leave him with 3 hp -- 3 hp that is accounted for with a rally and or a tonic. That's not counting the throne, nor the fact that Ophelia is fast and has a strong chance of quading him as a result. This isn't taking the throne into account, but without the throne he has 55 avoid, if I did the quick mafs right. That is quite manageable, especially considering WTA. Actually, I don't know if I'd need the tonic for my Oph, she's had S tomes for awhile now, which gives +3 attack and +10 hit IIRC. Fuck she's busted. 

 

[joshcja]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That's IF I have one, and anyone not named Xander is likely going to croak under the pressure. Not to mention if I stay up there too long, AKA more than one turn, I get lunged, and might as well kiss that poor soul night-night.

I've listed off the units that can reliably set up and take on quantities of enemies equal to or greater than taco's wall a few hundred times now. None of them (talisman xander included) really care about lunge.

If a completely unspoiled player does not do any of the above and completely buggers their positioning, a single stave chargecan shut off any and all lunge shenanigans.

If they went in with none of the tools used to win the map and expected to ez clear... yeah they should probably not be on lunatic.

 PP units being used on EP and PP units being used on PP is the way game do. You get a freebie, and you get options. Shhhhhhh.

2 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Math means nothing if probability lies like it does in this game. If math was as obective as you say it is, gambling would be rather lucrative. But the game is like the casino, it doesn't tell you all that it does, and you can be punished if you find it out for yourself.

The fates rng is still slanted towards the player. Just not as heavily.

That said.

100% disp hit that 100% strikes first and does over 100% of enemy hp with a 100% 0 damage guard up 100% of the time is not rng. It's math. Simple, additive, math, on a 1st grade level.

Edited April 3, 2018 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

Threads like these are why I'm glad to have the privilege of being able to acquire almost every visitor and battle reward. Spy's Yumi and Spy's Shuriken along with 10 move Kinshi Mozu and Master Ninja Midori are blessings to my existence, especially against Takudouche, who can do nothing against them and they can just chip him down until he dies...  

[Shadow Mir]

14 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

My Ophelia didn't have or need bowbreaker. I had a guard gauge from his minions set up, somewhat easy to do, and Ophelia crit needlessly anyway. 93% ish hit chance, 40 ish crit. Ophelia prf weapon more than did the job. I did this yesterday. 

I also still had 4 or so freeze staff uses if I needed them, which I didn't. I did this yesterday on Lunatic. Ophelia was a level 35 Witch at the time, and only my healers are currently under xl10, so I've not lost much exp. Everyone is contributing their fair share, even Izana -- I found I haven't ever given him enough credit, he's quite helpful as a healer/rally bot. My Camilla could have handled it as well, though she's actually levelcapped. She's just too good. 

Also, even if we weaken Ophelia to her level 30 witch state, she still has (with her Corrin mother pairup) ~37 Mag,  against Takumi's mere 13 res. Lightning would leave him with 3 hp -- 3 hp that is accounted for with a rally and or a tonic. That's not counting the throne, nor the fact that Ophelia is fast and has a strong chance of quading him as a result. This isn't taking the throne into account, but without the throne he has 55 avoid, if I did the quick mafs right. That is quite manageable, especially considering WTA. Actually, I don't know if I'd need the tonic for my Oph, she's had S tomes for awhile now, which gives +3 attack and +10 hit IIRC. Fuck she's busted. 

 

Using a one-time strategy, which having a full shield gauge is, does not do it for me, because if I don't have luck on my side, what then??? Especially since this is Murphy's Law: The Game we're talking about here.

Status staves aren't something I bother with because they tend to be way too niche - well, that, and the fact that anything worth hitting with them is most likely going to dodge anyhow.

Try adding another 3 to that because of throne bonuses. Also, Takumi has an extra 10 evade owing to his weapon. 42 + 12 + 10 + 30 = 94. Yeah... 

5 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Threads like these are why I'm glad to have the privilege of being able to acquire almost every visitor and battle reward. Spy's Yumi and Spy's Shuriken along with 10 move Kinshi Mozu and Master Ninja Midori are blessings to my existence, especially against Takudouche, who can do nothing against them and they can just chip him down until he dies...  

Ditto. I am NOT stupid enough to risk having to go through the infernal wall segment again...

[DragonFlames]

10 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Ditto. I am NOT stupid enough to risk having to go through the infernal wall segment again...

You MIGHT want to deal with enemies surrounding him first, though, or else Mozu will be fodder for the Sniper near Takudouche. Having someone to boost Midori and Mozu's damage, like Corrin, Camilla and / or Elise with their personal skills or Felicia / Jakob with Inspiration nearby might help, too, if you're like me and want to get the map done quicker.

Bottom line is, this is really the only way to kill Takudouche without opening yourself up to Fates' trademark wonky RNG (skill procs, unlucky misses, crits etc) and / or resorting to Skill buying.

[Mandokarla]

12 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Status staves aren't something I bother with because they tend to be way too niche - well, that, and the fact that anything worth hitting with them is most likely going to dodge anyhow.

So instead of taking a no-risk rng chance that a freeze/enfeeble might miss, using a unit that has a decent chance of not being needed to heal at the bosskill point of the map anyway, you are guaranteeing an rng chance of your unit missing and potentially dying as a result? That in itself makes no sense to me. At all. Denying an option because it might not work, even if that option failing costs nothing but a turn for a unit, is still denying a helpful option. You hate gambling so much, so I feel safe in assuming that you don't even sneeze at the boss until the immediate area around it is clear and safe, so it's not like a you can't take your time. 

Staff hit rates are not good, but they're not THAT bad. If you don't like or use them anyway, it's not like you're wasting a valuable resource. 

I just don't get it. 

[DragonFlames]

8 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

So instead of taking a no-risk rng chance that a freeze/enfeeble might miss, using a unit that has a decent chance of not being needed to heal at the bosskill point of the map anyway, you are guaranteeing an rng chance of your unit missing and potentially dying as a result? That in itself makes no sense to me. At all. Denying an option because it might not work, even if that option failing costs nothing but a turn for a unit, is still denying a helpful option. You hate gambling so much, so I feel safe in assuming that you don't even sneeze at the boss until the immediate area around it is clear and safe, so it's not like a you can't take your time. 

Staff hit rates are not good, but they're not THAT bad. If you don't like or use them anyway, it's not like you're wasting a valuable resource. 

I just don't get it. 

Obviously, I can't speak for Levant, but as someone who also doesn't use status staves that often (read: never), let me just say that using something you (justifiably) expect to fail in important situations anyway is in itself a pretty pointless thing to do.
Sure you could spam status staves all day long against Takumi and miss all of them due to bad luck (and knowing me, my luck is TERRIBLE, especially in Fates), but then you just waste your status staves, so it's the same as never using them at all. So in the end, what was the point in even trying?

Remember, Fates is Murphy's Law: The Game (sorry for stealing your line, Levant, but it's just too fitting) and for those who are bad luck incarnate (like me), we have a certain tendency to avoid invoking said law on ourselves, hence why I consider myself blessed by the fact that I can always fall back on weapons that out-range Takudouche and units to use them (in my case, a buffed up 10-move Kinshi Knight Mozu and Master Ninja Midori).

But, as I said in the beginning, I can only speak for myself here.

[Shadow Mir]

47 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

So instead of taking a no-risk rng chance that a freeze/enfeeble might miss, using a unit that has a decent chance of not being needed to heal at the bosskill point of the map anyway, you are guaranteeing an rng chance of your unit missing and potentially dying as a result? That in itself makes no sense to me. At all. Denying an option because it might not work, even if that option failing costs nothing but a turn for a unit, is still denying a helpful option. You hate gambling so much, so I feel safe in assuming that you don't even sneeze at the boss until the immediate area around it is clear and safe, so it's not like a you can't take your time. 

Staff hit rates are not good, but they're not THAT bad. If you don't like or use them anyway, it's not like you're wasting a valuable resource. 

I just don't get it. 

Of course you wouldn't get it. Fire Emblem as a series has a huge problem with making status effects useful for the player - not unlike most RPGs, really. The only games where that wasn't the case were the Jugdral saga, and that's more due to how the staff hit formula was in those games (it was a guaranteed hit if the user's magic was higher than the target's resistance - though magic doubled as resistance in Thracia). And Fates, in my view, is one where status effects were closer in efficiency to the likes of Bravely Default (where they were mostly only useful on normal enemies that likely wouldn't last more than a few turns tops; while they theoretically work on bosses, trying to use them on bosses would accomplish nothing but wasting a turn, in all likelihood) than Etrian Odyssey (where using - and abusing - them could take you far). Anyway, even with his poor resistance, there's still a good chance Takumi doesn't get hit because status staves are affected by terrain.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Moblin Major General]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

The fates rng is still slanted towards the player. Just not as heavily.

That said.

100% disp hit that 100% strikes first and does over 100% of enemy hp with a 100% 0 damage guard up 100% of the time is not rng. It's math. Simple, additive, math, on a 1st grade level.

You are guaranteed none of that. Kill the enemies too quickly or fail to kill them, you won't have a shield gauge to work off of, and sometimes units, even good ones, refuse to proc skill. If you miss even once against the other units, you lose the shield gauge you would've had for Takumi.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, joshcja said:

I've listed off the units that can reliably set up and take on quantities of enemies equal to or greater than taco's wall a few hundred times now. None of them (talisman xander included) really care about lunge.

If a completely unspoiled player does not do any of the above and completely buggers their positioning, a single stave chargecan shut off any and all lunge shenanigans.

If they went in with none of the tools used to win the map and expected to ez clear... yeah they should probably not be on lunatic.

 PP units being used on EP and PP units being used on PP is the way game do. You get a freebie, and you get options. Shhhhhhh.

The fates rng is still slanted towards the player. Just not as heavily.

That said.

100% disp hit that 100% strikes first and does over 100% of enemy hp with a 100% 0 damage guard up 100% of the time is not rng. It's math. Simple, additive, math, on a 1st grade level.

I wonder what part of "one-time strategy" is so difficult to comprehend that you fail miserably to grasp it... also, status staves, as usual, aren't that useful against the shit that's actually worth hitting with them.

[joshcja]

7 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

You are guaranteed none of that. Kill the enemies too quickly or fail to kill them, you won't have a shield gauge to work off of, and sometimes units, even good ones, refuse to proc skill. If you miss even once against the other units, you lose the shield gauge you would've had for Takumi.

I really like how you try to pretend that this entirely player controled game is not entirely player controled.

7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I wonder what part of "one-time strategy" is so difficult to comprehend that you fail miserably to grasp it... also, status staves, as usual, aren't that useful against the shit that's actually worth hitting with them.

The part where you're intentionally ignorant as absolute fuck to the meaning of words in the english language.

---------------------------------------------

Seriously make a playlog sometime.

 I want to see this mythical "No Units, No items of any kind, no maps" run.

Edited April 4, 2018 by joshcja

[Dark Holy Elf]

10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Status staves aren't something I bother with because they tend to be way too niche - well, that, and the fact that anything worth hitting with them is most likely going to dodge anyhow.

Status staves are great in Conquest. I can't even imagine doing Lunatic without them, but they're great even on lower difficulties. Freeze, the bread-and-butter one, is often a "get out of one mistake free" card which I use if I realise I placed someone in a dangerous location to them.

Takumi has terrible Res so he's easy to hit with them, contrary to the second half of your statement. Not that I've ever personally hit Takumi with a status staff since the strategy I've already detailed already wins reliably so no need to waste a resource I consider, unlike you, to be quite valuable.

[Moblin Major General]

7 hours ago, joshcja said:

I really like how you try to pretend that this entirely player controled game is not entirely player controled.

Learn to spell before you try to berate me. The game isn't something that can be controlled, stop pretending this game bends over backwards when it stubbornly refuses to cooperate at every opportunity. Not all of us are as lucky as you, just accept you won't ever convince some people, especially people you choose to insult.