Is Mage!Kliff really that bad?

[DisobeyedCargo]

I've seen a lot of people agree that Mage is one of Kliff's worst classes. I just don't see it. He does start off with low speed, but that's easily fixed with the speed fountain and his high speed growth. He also has a great spell list. So why is it one of his worst classes? He always does well in that class for me.

[eclipse]

He's been fine for me.  Probably not idea, but definitely functional.

[MCProductions]

It's not that he's bad as a mage, Excalibur alone makes you a fine mage, he's just laughably inferior to his original FE2 self.

[Infinite Dreams]

I have no idea.  My Kliff was a beast as a mage.  Even from the start (when I first promoted him to mage), he was doubling everything on hard mode and just kicking butt in general.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Mage Kliff is great. I'm not sure if Kliff has a bad promotion, since his spd/def growths make almost anything worthwhile... maybe archer?

Kinda curious if these "lot of people" will come out of the woodwork to defend their position. :p

[DisobeyedCargo]

3 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mage Kliff is great. I'm not sure if Kliff has a bad promotion, since his spd/def growths make almost anything worthwhile... maybe archer?

Kinda curious if these "lot of people" will come out of the woodwork to defend their position. :p

It's mostly people outside of SF. I've seen a  promotion guide outright say it's his worst class any many others calling him inferior to Mage!tobin 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Mage!Tobin has Physic but worse combat otherwise. Depends what you want. Either way, though, there's no way Mage is Kliff's worst option.

[Cysx]

He's pretty limited until he learns excalibur, as fire slows him down a lot. And by the time he gets good combat, well you're not that far from killer bow archers and such, and mages' low mobility hinders what he can do then.

... that's what people typically bring up anyway. I agree he's not that bad, though if not for soldier it could be his worst option regardless.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Cysx

[Azz]

The thing with Mage!Kliff is that it's a lot of effort for something that good that when it is good, you don't need it anymore.

Yeah Kliff has a great variety of spells he can learn, but Excalibur, a.k.a the best magic in the game, comes for him at level 9. The rest of his spell list is pretty moot since Fire is pretty weak and heavy at the beginning, Thunder's accuracy is shaky, Sagitaee costs too much HP and hit rate is shaky also and Aura comes too late to be useful. Compared to Tobin's level 6, it's quite a difference. Yeah Tobin will fall off as time goes on, but by then you'll have a Physic bot on a route that only has two other Physic users, Faye and Tatiana, one of which comes very late. You will also have Luthier, the best mage on Alm's route due to having Excalibur at base and a high Skill stat, which, with Excalibur's high crit chance, will cause a lot of damage.

Also Kliff will have trouble doubling at the beginning, unless you feed him Speed Fountain boosts, but they would be better for Silque, Cleric!Faye, Merc!Gray or Alm IMO, while Tobin can double from the get go (Minus mercs of coarse) and once he can't double, he'll have Excalibur, which will sync well with his high skill growth.

I'm not saying Mage!Kliff is bad, he's not, and people that say it is the worst are really just being hyperbolic since Soldier exists. Mage!Kliff just takes a lot of work that Mage!Tobin doesn't and once you get Luthier, Mage!Kliff is pretty unneeded. Merc, Archer or even Cav would just be better options if you want a good unit out the gate. Especially Cav since he actually wont get overshadowed by Mathilda, since he has bulk while she doesn't.

This is not me telling you to not use Mage!Kliff, in fact I use him cause canon but Mage!Kliff is far from the best option for him.

[Hawkwing]

Mage!Kliff is far from bad, although his usefulness depends on how well you utilize his wide pool of spells. His large spell pool sounds great on paper, but it depends on the person if it works well in practice. The reason that Mage!Tobin is pushed so much is because of his early access to excalibur, and for some people, that's all they need.

That being said, I do think that the mercenary and cavalier are better options for him, as they take advantage of his great growths, and he has have less of potential having falling behind.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Kliff's base Speed is poor, which hampers his great Speed growth. It's the big issue with making him a Mage.

Excalibur is good, but 30-40% chance of critting is not enough for it to be perfect, it's good, but I'd like more than just that from a mage. Aura is heavy, but it has its uses if you can get it. 

Luthier is crap against non-Knights (who along with bow units can double him FYI) with his inability to double, I don't use him much.

Now Delthea is great, but given how late she joins, there is no reason you can't use her and Mage!Kliff.

Tobin does have Physic on his side, a strong start, and picking Mage Tobin frees you to use Faye as something else, but you might want more than this combat-wise. Double Physics might have use in Act 3, but Act 4 gives you Tatiana with Fortify halfway in and combined with Slique you can have enough healing between the ladies.

 

The question should be asked whether Mages are needed at all in SoV, and while they're pretty amazing, I can see one doing without them with some Dread Fighter!Zweihander!Tigerstance strikes, that CA is just way too powerful. But that is about it.

[DisobeyedCargo]

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Kliff's base Speed is poor, which hampers his great Speed growth. It's the big issue with making him a Mage.

Excalibur is good, but 30-40% chance of critting is not enough for it to be perfect, it's good, but I'd like more than just that from a mage. Aura is heavy, but it has its uses if you can get it. 

Luthier is crap against non-Knights (who along with bow units can double him FYI) with his inability to double, I don't use him much.

Now Delthea is great, but given how late she joins, there is no reason you can't use her and Mage!Kliff.

Tobin does have Physic on his side, a strong start, and picking Mage Tobin frees you to use Faye as something else, but you might want more than this combat-wise. Double Physics might have use in Act 3, but Act 4 gives you Tatiana with Fortify halfway in and combined with Slique you can have enough healing between the ladies.

 

The question should be asked whether Mages are needed at all in SoV, and while they're pretty amazing, I can see one doing without them with some Dread Fighter!Zweihander!Tigerstance strikes, that CA is just way too powerful. But that is about it.

That's one of the things that bothers me. People say Luthier and Tobin are all you need, but Luthier just falls off so easily. And that varied spell list is so great. And for me at least thanks to his great speed growth he's capable of doubling fairly regularly with aura and occasionally even Sagittae. The speed ring also helps this even more thanks to he +1 move, fixing his classes low move problem,  But that's kinda irrelevant cause Anyone can have the speed ring. 

 

[badatfireemblem]

My mage Kliff turned out pretty well, as did peg Faye so

I think anything works tbh 

[redlight]

Since you can deploy every character and Echoes is grindy, spell availability doesn't really matter. There aren't any weapon ranks and you can progress at any speed you want to in the main story. Which means that trying to cap levels won't hold you back. Take it from the guy who promoted all of his villagers at level 20. Kliff is monstrous with Excalibur now

[Azz]

11 hours ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

That's one of the things that bothers me. People say Luthier and Tobin are all you need, but Luthier just falls off so easily. And that varied spell list is so great. And for me at least thanks to his great speed growth he's capable of doubling fairly regularly with aura and occasionally even Sagittae. The speed ring also helps this even more thanks to he +1 move, fixing his classes low move problem,  But that's kinda irrelevant cause Anyone can have the speed ring. 

 

The thing is quality over quantity. Yeah having a varied spell list is fine and dandy but Aura comes pretty late unless you grind and Sagittae is pretty heavy and has a meh hit rate. Excalibur is pretty much all you're going to use for the most part unless you really need to nuke something, which is pretty rare.

As for Luthier, it depends. On average, Lu turns out pretty well and his base set and high skill with Excalibur really helps put him above both Tobin and Kliff. The only reason people would recommend Mage!Tobin over Mage!Kliff is because he has immediate effectiveness in that he can double right away with Fire and gets Excalibur really early and even when he will no longer be useful, he can get Physic, which can make him a really good staff bot later on down the line.

[DragonFlames]

I always tend to make Kliff into something other than Mage for several reasons:

1) He, along with all the other Mages, doesn't have access to Seraphim, so they're outclassed by the likes of Mae, Delthea, Celica and every possible Saint when the Terror brigade shows up.
2) His attack stat is kind of low, so even with Excalibur, he usually fails to do any significant damage. And while high, Excalibur's crit rate is all but reliable.
3) When your Clerics promote and Delthea joins your ranks, Tobin is saved by the fact that he learns Physic.
4) Kliff looks just too awesome as a Baron.

But I woldn't say he's a bad Mage. I made him a Mage once, he was decent. I have just found that I prefer him in other classes, preferably ones that buff up his lacking attack stat upon promotion (like Cav or Soldier).

[Dark Wanderer]

I made my Kliff a mage, and just promoted him to sage yesterday. I am new to the series and honestly didn't put much consideration into the class I chose for him, but he seems to be getting the job done.

[The Roger The Paladin]

Honestly, I've tried Kliff as a Mercenary, a Mage and a Soldier. He's worked out great for me no matter what. Even as a soldier his stunted movement is made up for by having a high speed high defense tank by endgame. (And warp).

[Aut]

I don’t know if I’d say he’s completely awful as a mage, but he’s pretty bad all things considered. His base speed as a mage is complete ass, it takes him a long time to get his good spells, and he’s generally outclassed by Tobin and Luthier, Tobin due to the fact that he gets Excalibur faster with a notably higher base speed, and Luthier because he’s doubling basically everything Mage!Kliff is doubling but hitting harder while doing it. Mage!Kliff’s best case scenario is to be fighting Gold Knights, since that’s one of the few enemies that he might double that Luthier is unlikely to double, but the only two times he’d fight Gold Knights are on Zeke’s map and Rigel Falls, with one of those maps having most of the enemies start super far away, and the other being more convenient to take them out on enemy phase. Not to mention he’s pretty good as a merc or cavalier, due to the relatively high base speeds of the classes, easily being the best villager in either class. Him having a big spell list is nice in theory, but in practice, thunder is basically useless, and Aura is outclassed by Sagittae, so his spell list might as well be the same as Luthier’s. Which means he hits weaker than Luthier the same amount of times as Luthier against most relevant enemies, which is not a good place to be. Not to mention Delthea, who hits significantly harder and (once grown a bit) faster than Kliff. He’s basically worse versions of the lategame mages with far more investment required than either. And considering that the lategame mages have their own problems (move, enemy phase, bulk) I’d say that mage!Kliff is pretty bad.

[redlight]

There honestly isn't any outright bad promotion decisions for Kliff if you don't mind letting him grind. Echoes/Gaiden is completely different from all the other Fire Emblems in terms of promoting. Units gain stats upon promotion until they reach a certain amount depending on each class. You don't get stat boosts that come with that class's promotion that's the staple in many Fire Emblem games. Say that I have a level 20 villager Kliff and promote him into mage. Unless I get RNG screwed, he won't get any stats points. Were this another Fire Emblem game, he'd get a bunch stat points from the promotion. I would just honestly use the chance to grind every villager to level 20 in order to get more stat points than to promote them early on. I would do an early promotion like in other Fire Emblem playthroughs, but Echoes encourages grinding. The villagers extra stats from tier 0 level-ups is what makes them a force to be reckoned with. Unless you're Gray with poor growths. Though his promotion helps patch up what he missed

You'd be a fool not to abuse Kliff's 60% speed growth for level ups as a Villager.

Edited April 3, 2018 by silveraura25

[DragonFlames]

27 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

There honestly isn't any outright bad promotion decisions for Kliff if you don't mind letting him grind. Echoes/Gaiden is completely different from all the other Fire Emblems in terms of promoting. Units gain stats upon promotion until they reach a certain amount depending on each class. You don't get stat boosts that come with that class's promotion that's the staple in many Fire Emblem games. Say that I have a level 20 villager Kliff and promote him into mage. Unless I get RNG screwed, he won't get any stats points. Were this another Fire Emblem game, he'd get a bunch stat points from the promotion. I would just honestly use the chance to grind every villager to level 20 in order to get more stat points than to promote them early on. I would do an early promotion like in other Fire Emblem playthroughs, but Echoes encourages grinding. The villagers extra stats from tier 0 level-ups is what makes them a force to be reckoned with. Unless you're Gray with poor growths. Though his promotion helps patch up what he missed

You'd be a fool not to abuse Kliff's 60% speed growth for level ups as a Villager.

It takes ages upon ages to grind to level 20 without the DLC, though. Especially if all you have access to is the first dungeon. Besides, I imagine everything becoming a nightmare later on if all you can fall back on are a bunch of Villagers...

There is also no real downside to promoting early (aside from losing out on a few level ups, but really, resetting your level to 1 can only help you in the long run) and you can complete the main game just fine by always promoting as early as you can.
Thabes is a different beast entirely, though, so it really depends what you want to focus on more.

The only characters I train to 20 before promoting them are Alm, Celica and any female Mage. If you're wondering why I'm singling out female Mages: I usually drop their male counterparts as soon as possible, because for me no Seraphim = bench. Female mages also have fewer things to gain from promoting early than their male counterparts and I want Delthea and Mae to nuke things regularly, so the healing utility is negligible on these two.
It's also advised to get Tobin to Sage as quickly as you can (if you made him a Mage that is), because he learns Physic, the only thing that keeps him from getting benched, since it's the best healing spell in the game.  

Edited April 3, 2018 by DragonFlames

[redlight]

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

It takes ages upon ages to grind to level 20 without the DLC, though. Especially if all you have access to is the first dungeon. Besides, I imagine everything becoming a nightmare later on if all you can fall back on are a bunch of Villagers...

There is also no real downside to promoting early (aside from losing out on a few level ups, but really, resetting your level to 1 can only help you in the long run) and you can complete the main game just fine by always promoting as early as you can.
Thabes is a different beast entirely, though, so it really depends what you want to focus on more.

The only characters I train to 20 before promoting them are Alm, Celica and any female Mage. If you're wondering why I'm singling out female Mages: I usually drop their male counterparts as soon as possible, because for me no Seraphim = bench. Female mages also have fewer things to gain from promoting early than their male counterparts and I want Delthea and Mae to nuke things regularly, so the healing utility is negligible on these two.
It's also advised to get Tobin to Sage as quickly as you can (if you made him a Mage that is), because he learns Physic, the only thing that keeps him from getting benched, since it's the best healing spell in the game.  

Took me 40 minutes for each villager in the first dungeon. Faye first so I could abuse Physic and heal her with Silque

Edited April 3, 2018 by silveraura25

[DragonFlames]

3 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

Took me 40 minutes for each villager in the first dungeon. Faye first so I could abuse Physic and heal her with Silque

I find that somewhat hard to believe, but alright. If it really does take that little time, I think I'll try it for myself in my next playthrough.
The DLC is pretty annoying and your Villagers can die pretty easily to the Revenants.

What setup do you use? Do you enter the dungeon with just Alm + Villager or do you always have everyone on hand and level them up equally?

Edited April 3, 2018 by DragonFlames

[redlight]

Just now, DragonFlames said:

I find that somewhat hard to believe, but alright. If it really does take that little time, I think I'll try it for myself in my next playthrough.
The DLC is pretty annoying and your Villagers can die pretty easily to the Revenants.

But it'll take nearly 3 hours to maximize the levels of all 4 villagers this way. Also, I used my playtime and divided it by four when I finally promoted Gray.

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, silveraura25 said:

But it'll take nearly 3 hours to maximize the levels of all 4 villagers this way. Also, I used my playtime and divided it by four when I finally promoted Gray.

Hence why I said it was annoying and why I find it so hard to believe it takes only 40 minutes using only the first dungeon.

5 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

What setup do you use? Do you enter the dungeon with just Alm + Villager or do you always have everyone on hand and level them up equally?

You also haven't answered my question yet. I am genuinely curious.