Is Mage!Kliff really that bad?

[Robert Stewart]

Mage Kliff is fine. I had him as a mage in my first playthrough and he did just fine.

I think the problem is people conflating something being "sub-optimal" with "bad" when that really isn't the case.

[Rezzy]

No mage with a non generic spell list is bad.

[Logjam]

I think he's awesome in chapter 1 and for a lot of the early/mid-game. He's good throughout, but he can be overshadowed by Delthea, or may get a little screwed over in growths.

[L9999]

46 minutes ago, Logjam said:

I think he's awesome in chapter 1 and for a lot of the early/mid-game. He's good throughout, but he can be overshadowed by Delthea, or may get a little screwed over in growths.

Base 1 AS, gets doubled by literally everything, forced to have 4 more spd than the enemies because Fire is a heavy brick. Yeah, totally awesome unit. Mage Kliff needs 9 consecutive spd procs to even double Slayde, who is the fastest enemy in Act 1 and Slayde still slower than enemies found beyond Act 1. Kliff flat out won't double anything unless you overfeed him kills, which shows how inflexible he is. Compare that to Merc Kliff, who with the Thunder Sword can double Slayde with only 3 spd procs and can double every enemy prior with 1.

23 hours ago, Rezzy said:

No mage with a non generic spell list is bad.

So Nomah is good?

Edited May 15, 2018 by L9999

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 hours ago, L9999 said:

So Nomah is good?

He can replace Boey pretty easy, who falls off later because he is slow and learns his best spell, just Excalibur, quite late, to the point I normally never get to promote him.

In the long run with grinding Boey will outdo Nomah, but otherwise they'll be virtually identical- good for a minor close range heal and a chip via Saggitae/Excalibur/Thunder. Inferior to Mae, Celica, Genny, and probably Sonya. Nomah is not good, but not a real liability, save in Duma Tower, where he is taking up a precious unit slot and Bow Knights in the Tower can ORKO (or is it 2RKO?) him, if you care about him dying or not. Nomah needs no investment to be his banal self either. 

[Punished Dayni]

Overshadowed on the power front for sure compared to Delthea.

I still think he has some advantages, given his access to spells with 2-3 range and Excaliber which Delthea doesn't have. To say he's bad is wrong imo, though he is someone I'd try other classes with because of his growths. I've used him in Hard Mode and while I think he was worth using, I also think I'd go with a different class in future.

Thing is, this is measurable on two fronts: compared to his other classes and compared to the other villagers. On one front I understand the complaints about Kliff working better with other classes, but on the other hand Tobin's only weapon advantages are Physic and lower Excaliber access (only one of which I'd really think is worth bringing up in the long run), Gray is plain worse full stop because he'll run into growth difficulties in the long run and his spell list is just bad and Faye has Serahpim access and arguably better bases on average (this ignores her Pegasus Knight and Cleric access). Kliff's real issue is the low base speed, which he can arguably get ahead of over time, but that start puts enough people off for them to consider Tobin instead. I'd argue Faye.... if she didn't have much lower HP in comparison.

[L9999]

23 hours ago, Dayni said:

Overshadowed on the power front for sure compared to Delthea.

I still think he has some advantages, given his access to spells with 2-3 range and Excaliber which Delthea doesn't have. To say he's bad is wrong imo, though he is someone I'd try other classes with because of his growths. I've used him in Hard Mode and while I think he was worth using, I also think I'd go with a different class in future.

Thing is, this is measurable on two fronts: compared to his other classes and compared to the other villagers. On one front I understand the complaints about Kliff working better with other classes, but on the other hand Tobin's only weapon advantages are Physic and lower Excaliber access (only one of which I'd really think is worth bringing up in the long run), Gray is plain worse full stop because he'll run into growth difficulties in the long run and his spell list is just bad and Faye has Serahpim access and arguably better bases on average (this ignores her Pegasus Knight and Cleric access). Kliff's real issue is the low base speed, which he can arguably get ahead of over time, but that start puts enough people off for them to consider Tobin instead. I'd argue Faye.... if she didn't have much lower HP in comparison.

Delthea isn't that good of a unit so I don't see the point of comparison beyond the pitfalled view of comparing units only with those of its class. Delthea can have 1-3 range with the Mage Ring, which can be mailed over from Celica's before doing Act 4 of Alm's. Delthea is good for triggering witch AI, which is 56 times more useful than anything Mage Kliff does. 

Kliff's other classes are superior in everything. As archer he can reasonably reach 6 or 7 spd before Python joins, giving him an advantage in AS to use a Killer Bow. Mercenary has way better bases and Kliff's combat is strictly superior. "But Gray is the mercenary." You can use both. Novelty concept I know.

Tobin's advantage isn't Excalibur or Physic, it is his bases. With 2 spd procs as Villager he can reach 7 spd, which gives him pretty good combat without hogging spd wells or grinding for 10 minutes like Kliff does. Tobin doesn't need to kill anything either, his job is to do chip damage and build up shield rank to use Swap. Kliff is useless on arrival and takes too much to get going while Tobin is useful on arrival and remains useful.

[Logjam]

On 5/15/2018 at 5:43 PM, L9999 said:

Base 1 AS, gets doubled by literally everything, forced to have 4 more spd than the enemies because Fire is a heavy brick. Yeah, totally awesome unit. Mage Kliff needs 9 consecutive spd procs to even double Slayde, who is the fastest enemy in Act 1 and Slayde still slower than enemies found beyond Act 1. Kliff flat out won't double anything unless you overfeed him kills, which shows how inflexible he is. Compare that to Merc Kliff, who with the Thunder Sword can double Slayde with only 3 spd procs and can double every enemy prior with 1.

Yes his other classes are pretty good, but I prefer him as my early-game mage before you have any other magic users. Even if he doesn't double anyone, he can attack at 2-3 range without being counter-attacked and do plenty of damage early on. Excalibur and the rest of his spell list aren't bad either. I think one of the ways to make him a little easier to deal with his low starting speed is to give him a few more levels as a villager before promoting. He has a solid speed growth.

[L9999]

7 hours ago, Logjam said:

Yes his other classes are pretty good, but I prefer him as my early-game mage before you have any other magic users. Even if he doesn't double anyone, he can attack at 2-3 range without being counter-attacked and do plenty of damage early on. Excalibur and the rest of his spell list aren't bad either. I think one of the ways to make him a little easier to deal with his low starting speed is to give him a few more levels as a villager before promoting. He has a solid speed growth.

Needing assistance in stats out of the story maps expose how unflexible is Kliff. To put it into perspective:

Map 1-1: Can be beaten in 2 turns. Kliff slows you down so he gets a single kill.

Map 1-2: Can be beaten in 3 turns. Kliff still has his horrid bases. Can level up at least.

Brigand Boss: Can be beaten in 1 turn with an Iron Sword crit. If you 2 turn it Kliff can get to level 3 killing Brigand Boss.

Mage has 4 base speed. Kliff can gain 2 levels when playing this game efficiently. In 2 levels he can't go past the class bases, so he is stuck with a horrid 1 AS.

Now, compare that to Tobin with the same turn span.

Map 1-1: He can get to lv 2 30 exp without being a burden. Can get to 7 spd with a proc, 25% but not impossible.

Map 1-2: Tobin gains another level without being a burden once again. Can get to 8 spd.

Tobin got past the mage bases. No wells, no grinding and he is fast enough to double every enemy in Act 1 that isn't a cavalier.

"But Kliff can attack from range."

He can, but with how high the HP of the enemies is it doesn't amount to anything. Kliff does 11 damage to the generics in Act 1, while Tobin does 22. Against 26-32 HP enemies it shows who actually is helping out. A highlight to Tobin's performance is bringing soldiers in 1-4 to very low HP, and those soldiers are very bulky. Leather Shield Tobin can take 3 of them on and live, unlike Kliff who with all the spd wells (7 spd, 4 AS) gets doubled and dies. Those spd wells belong to Silque to begin with so even with favoritism Kliff underperforms compared to Tobin.

Edited May 19, 2018 by L9999

[Cysx]

On 15/05/2018 at 11:43 PM, L9999 said:

Base 1 AS, gets doubled by literally everything, forced to have 4 more spd than the enemies because Fire is a heavy brick. Yeah, totally awesome unit. Mage Kliff needs 9 consecutive spd procs to even double Slayde, who is the fastest enemy in Act 1 and Slayde still slower than enemies found beyond Act 1. Kliff flat out won't double anything unless you overfeed him kills, which shows how inflexible he is. Compare that to Merc Kliff, who with the Thunder Sword can double Slayde with only 3 spd procs and can double every enemy prior with 1.

So Nomah is good?

Remember Kliff gets Excalibur down the line as well, which shaves off 2 points from the speed he needs. His main problem early on is getting there, by that point he's generally fine combat-wise.

I remember speed ring Nomah being pretty capable thanks to doubling a few annoying targets with Sagittae.

On 19/05/2018 at 5:27 AM, L9999 said:

-snip-

No offense, but that's one biased chart if I've ever seen one.

- Tobin starts at LV 2.

- Both have bad deployment slots early on, so while Kliff's contribution in ltc is reasonably described here, Tobin's really isn't. Realistically neither will get to do much.

- Even assuming a 25% growth procs twice in a row for some reason(would take 8 levels on average), 5 AS does not double everything in act 1 but cavs.

- Lv 2 mage Kliff with a leather shield has 9 def on average. The 1-4 soldiers have 11 attack. I'm pretty sure he can take them even if he gets doubled.

- Well!Kliff's 4 AS means he isn't getting doubled, and Tobin is unlikely to get to the 8 spd necessary to double them in 3 to 4 level ups.

- Please sell me on the speed wells going to Silque because I see very little short term advantage to it(in terms of exp gain which I assume is what this is about), and hardly any long term ones either.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Cysx

[DisobeyedCargo]

19 minutes ago, Cysx said:

 

- Please sell me on the speed wells going to Silque because I see very little short term advantage to it(in terms of exp gain which I assume is what this is about), and hardly any long term ones either.

Same here, it doesn't extend her range like attack would for heals, and she's so fragile I wouldn't want to risk her on the front lines with her only attack having 60 hit  

[LoneRecon400]

4 hours ago, Cysx said:

Remember Kliff gets Excalibur down the line as well, which shaves off 2 points from the speed he needs. His main problem early on is getting there, by that point he's generally fine combat-wise.

Kliff learns Excalibur by level 9. It'll be well into act 3 by the time he gets it, and by that point mages are overshadowed by practically every class barring Soldiers. 

 

4 hours ago, Cysx said:

 Both have bad deployment slots early on, so while Kliff's contribution in ltc is reasonably described here, Tobin's really isn't. Realistically neither will get to do much.

If anything, Tobin shines the most in a LTC since he's can consistently double all the units before and in Thieves Shrine, while Kliff cannot, allowing him to promote by then rather then later like Kliff needs to. 

 

Besides, LTC is a bad metric to judge units by, as it skews a unit's role by denying units the resources they need. Using LTC as metric to judge units would mean units such as Catria and Kamui would be considered mediocre units since there's not enough experience to promote them, as most experience will be funneled to Saber and Palla, even though they're roughly on par with them in normal play. 

 

4 hours ago, Cysx said:

 Well!Kliff's 4 AS means he isn't getting doubled, and Tobin is unlikely to get to the 8 spd necessary to double them in 3 to 4 level ups.

Except that involves giving him all three points of speed, which can very valuable for letting other units hit some benchmarks.

For example, by promoting Clive to Paladin and giving him a point of speed, he is then able to double a majority of Cavaliers in act 3 with the Ridersbane. 

 

By giving a point to Archer!Tobin, it allows him to double archers in 3-5 with the Killer Bow equipped  with only needing one proc of speed and helps him to learn Hunter's Volley faster. 

 

A point could also be given to Slique, allowing her to avoid being doubled by enemy archers and also allows her to double some of the bandits in 1-3, thus allowing her the chance to get more experience for warp. 

 

All of these are better cases to give points of speed to rather then a unit who's still reliant on the RNG to hit the benchmark to reliably double enemy units even with all three. 

 

4 hours ago, Cysx said:

Please sell me on the speed wells going to Silque because I see very little short term advantage to it(in terms of exp gain which I assume is what this is about), and hardly any long term ones either.

Because Warp is just that valuable. Being able to move a unit additional tiles without have to account for terrain is huge boon in practically every map, not to mention allows for many more strategies that would have been otherwise impossible. 

 

A prime example of this  would be 1-7, Zofia Gate. By allowing Silque to get Warp by that point, not only can you remove the threat of archers form attacking someone unable to counterattack,  it allows for units to bait the group of cavaliers to attacking you on the stairs, thus not having to suffer the terrain penalties of tiles.

 

Though, I do agree with giving all three points to her to achieve this is a bit extreme.

[Cysx]

20 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

snip

Mages are basically at their best in dungeons, so Kliff can get to LV9 earlier, depending on how you play. It depends if you consider not avoiding everything sub-optimal, which is a bit extreme afaic. Edit: That being said, there aren't any dungeons early on in act 3, so your comment was fair. Beyond that, I'm aware, most of my post was meant to correct things I felt L9999 didn't really adress properly.

Sure Tobin has better villager combat, that being said neither ORKO, or even 2RKO, so the difference is there but in reality, they still both suck. An early level for Kliff also has a 60% chance of putting him in doubling territory against quite a few targets.

I entirely agree with the LTC comment. I spoke of it because I think that's the angle the post I was responding to was taking. Or rather, LTC and efficiency are largely the same that early.

I didn't mean that funneling all the points into mage!Kliff was a good idea. I was just correcting a math error.

unlike Kliff who with all the spd wells (7 spd, 4 AS) gets doubled and dies.

Beyond that, Clive can use the speed but joins five chapters after the wells are available; make that 6 if you get him to 10 in the next chapter. There's a good argument to be made that by that point they should all be spent on units that were already around. Also that's only true for 3-1 cavs. He needs one more still(preferably 2) for 3-5, the big cav chapter... and by that point you have Mathilda.

The archer!Tobin one is very specific. That's 4 enemies and were he to crit with the killer bow, his doubling would be wasted. He'll also likely never need speed again once he gets hunter volley.

I guess I can agree that one point of speed going to Silque is a decent choice, the archer part specifically being very true. That being said, i'm perfectly aware of how useful warp is, it's just that the exp difference itself(if any, let's be real we're talking about 4HKOing probably just one LV1 brigand at 60% accuracy) isn't all too big.

At the end of the day if what little exp she's getting through it matters so much, battling one or two creeps can provide the same result without being game breaking or what you could consider grinding really.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Cysx

[LoneRecon400]

3 hours ago, Cysx said:

Mages are basically at their best in dungeons, so Kliff can get to LV9 earlier, depending on how you play. It depends if you consider not avoiding everything sub-optimal, which is a bit extreme afaic.

I typically don't like including a unit's performance In dungeons, since they are simply too variable. Some players may go out of their way to fight every encounter, while others may avoid all of them. So I typically like to assume the latter just so that EXP distribution is more prevalent of an issue, as grinding can make any unit turn out good.

Even if we did include dungeon encounters, however, I'd have a hard time imaging getting Kliff to level 9 any sooner then 3-2.

3 hours ago, Cysx said:

Beyond that, Clive can use the speed but joins five chapters after the wells are available; make that 6 if you get him to 10 in the next chapter. There's a good argument to be made that by that point they should all be spent on units that were already around. Also that's only true for 3-1 cavs. He needs one more still(preferably 2) for 3-5, the big cav chapter... and by that point you have Mathilda.

There's no rush to use the fountains, as no one really changes in performance as much as Clive does. Tobin, one of the best example of who to give it to, only manages to double with two points. Clive, on the other hand, goes from doing mediocre damage to straight up one rounding enemies with the Ridersbane. 

Getting him to double the Cavaliers in 3-6 isn't that difficult either, as he only needs to get to level 5 in order to double all but 4 of them. Even if he didn't hit that benchmark, he could still OHKO all of the cavaliers with a maxed forged Ridersbane.

And while Clive may be inferior to Mathilda at base, given investment he can turn out to be on par with or even better then her. In particular, by promoting him to Gold Knight at the end of act 3, he'll actually be better then her until she promotes at Fear Shrine, since Gold Knight's base stats can really change a unit's performance.

3 hours ago, Cysx said:

The archer!Tobin one is very specific. That's 4 enemies and were he to crit with the killer bow, his doubling would be wasted. He'll also likely never need speed again once he gets hunter volley.

It's a small increase to be sure, but it does make Tobin able to double some units that he otherwise wouldn't be able to on enemy phase. Sofia Gate, Last Bastion and Rigel Castle all have positions where only archers can counterattack, which can make that extra point in speed make the difference between one rounding a only dealing chip damage. 

3 hours ago, Cysx said:

At the end of the day if what little exp she's getting through it matters so much, battling one or two creeps can provide the same result without being game breaking or what you could consider grinding really.

While this is true, what these example were tying to demonstrate was how useful those points in speed can be on some units. While they might not be absolutely critical, a unit that needs to be given all three just obtain passable combat is not the hallmark of good unit, especially with how mages lose their effectiveness as the game goes on.

Edited May 24, 2018 by LoneRecon400
Clarity

[Cysx]

18 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I typically don't like including a unit's performance In dungeons, since they are simply too variable. Some players may go out of their way to fight every encounter, while others may avoid all of them. So I typically like to assume the latter just so that EXP distribution is more prevalent of an issue, as grinding can make any unit turn out good.

Even if we did include dungeon encounters, however, I'd have a hard time imaging getting Kliff to level 9 any sooner then 3-2.

There's no rush to use the fountains, as no one really changes in performance as much as Clive does. Tobin, one of the best example of who to give it to, only manages to double with two points. Clive, on the other hand, goes from doing mediocre damage to straight up one rounding enemies with the Ridersbane. 

Getting him to double the Cavaliers in 3-6 isn't that difficult either, as he only needs to get to level 5 in order to double all but 4 of them. Even if he didn't hit that benchmark, he could still OHKO all of the cavaliers with a maxed forged Ridersbane.

And while Clive may be inferior to Mathilda at base, given investment he can turn out to be on par with or even better then her. In particular, by promoting him to Gold Knight at the end of act 3, he'll actually be better then her until she promotes at Fear Shrine, since Gold Knight's base stats can really change a unit's performance.

It's a small increase to be sure, but it does make Tobin able to double some units that he otherwise wouldn't be able to on enemy phase. Sofia Gate, Last Bastion and Rigel Castle all have positions where only archers can counterattack, which can make that extra point in speed make the difference between one rounding a only dealing chip damage. 

While this is true, what these example were tying to demonstrate was how useful those points in speed can be on some units. While they might not be absolutely critical, a unit that needs to be given all three just obtain passable combat is not the hallmark of good unit, especially with how mages lose their effectiveness as the game goes on.

Yes, that seems to be the general stance on dungeons. My main problem is, it's unrealistic. Having to actively avoid every monster or reset is not something most players will do, and even in terms of exp obtained per turn, those skirmishes tend to have normal chapters beat due to how compact the maps are. Basically it's easy to look at it as grinding, but they don't really qualify unless you go out of your way to fight more. <10 battles a dungeon, especially later on, isn't grinding, and most importantly is probably happening, so there's little point in assuming that it won't when trying to determine exp distribution. Fair point about mage!Kliff though, as said above.

Okay, so I wrote this whole thing about specific points and such, but I think I should have been clearer earlier and will spare you what's getting pretty close to plain semantics.

So, I agree that there are other candidates for speed, if anything, I think there are many more than you do, apparently, and the reason I went against your examples is because I took them at face value. I'm in complete agreement that enemy phase doubling for archers is very useful, and yes, early GK!Clive sounds like a decent option, though I'd sooner keep the +speed around for Celica's team than give it to Clive if I'm going to wait that long, which I likely won't, but hey.

It is true that mages having low mobility is a big problem, but I think their weaknesses are overstated by most people. Because of dungeons being a big part of the game we tend to ignore, and in Alm route's case because warp/rescue. And outside of that, Excalibur(with turnwheel abusing for crits) and especially Sagittae can be very potent at disposing of problematic targets throughout the entire game. So yeah, they're not GKs or Bow knights, but still, it's not as bad as people say, I feel.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Cysx

[LoneRecon400]

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

It is true that mages having low mobility is a big problem, but I think their weaknesses are overstated by most people. Because of dungeons being a big part of the game we tend to ignore, and in Alm route's case because warp/rescue. And outside of that, Excalibur(with turnwheel abusing for crits) and especially Sagittae can be very potent at disposing of problematic targets throughout the entire game. So yeah, they're not GKs or Bow knights, but still, it's not as bad as people say, I feel.

It's not so much mages fall off, it's more that other units just get a lot better while they remain largely the same. Past act 1, it's not that hard for units in other classes to one round most enemy units as Combat artes, weapons with effective damage, and 3rd tier units all make short work of most enemy units. 

Meanwhile, mage's only claim to fame is Excalibur, which has to rely critical hits to one round until the Speed Ring. Even with the Speed Ring, doubling with Sagittae makes them lose half their HP, and may not even be able enough to one round bulkier enemies such as Barons. Not to mention this requires them to reach level 15, which is quite a substantial amount of investment.

Even if this was the case, it still doesn't mean that Mage!Kliff contributions are particular unique and can't be replaced. Luthier can replace his role without requiring any investment in act 1 like Kliff does, and about the only difference in their performance is that Kliff would be able to double some cavaliers, but they can be easily taken out by other units.

[Cysx]

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It's not so much mages fall off, it's more that other units just get a lot better while they remain largely the same. Past act 1, it's not that hard for units in other classes to one round most enemy units as Combat artes, weapons with effective damage, and 3rd tier units all make short work of most enemy units. 

Meanwhile, mage's only claim to fame is Excalibur, which has to rely critical hits to one round until the Speed Ring. Even with the Speed Ring, doubling with Sagittae makes them lose half their HP, and may not even be able enough to one round bulkier enemies such as Barons. Not to mention this requires them to reach level 15, which is quite a substantial amount of investment.

Even if this was the case, it still doesn't mean that Mage!Kliff contributions are particular unique and can't be replaced. Luthier can replace his role without requiring any investment in act 1 like Kliff does, and about the only difference in their performance is that Kliff would be able to double some cavaliers, but they can be easily taken out by other units.

Mages also have the advantage of having no opportunity cost as far as forging goes. Sure effective weapons are amazing, especially on Alm's route, but they're also highly expensive to forge(and one can always use more killer bows), which should not be ignored. Using a mage... is free, always, outside of training. Consistent accuracy is also great, and Sagittae depleting their health doesn't matter much when you should be fortifying every turn past a certain point. As for Excalibur, it wouldn't be so good if not for the turnwheel allowing you to rig crits, making it much more consistent than it would be otherwise. Also, 12/3(4?) isn't hefty really. Male mages have it relatively easy on that front, it's female mages that suffer from requiring high investment.

Outside of that, yeah, Luthier behaves largely the same as Mage!Kliff without speed wells, give or take some durability. Though if you're going to use mage!Kliff, he's probably getting at least one well charge because otherwise, there's really not that much of a reason to bother, he's probably the one character in Alm's team that needs it most. As I said earlier in this thread though, it's absolutely one of his worst class options... but then again he's pretty much at least decent at everything.

[Forseti Spaghetti]

I mean he gets sagittae on Alms side and he can get it pretty early on if you grind, about his stats, honestly in one of my runs of FE echoes I made Kilff a mage, and I found it to be one of his best classes even with his low speed when he starts out 

[L9999]

On 25/5/2018 at 4:00 PM, Cysx said:

Mages also have the advantage of having no opportunity cost as far as forging goes. Sure effective weapons are amazing, especially on Alm's route, but they're also highly expensive to forge(and one can always use more killer bows), which should not be ignored. Using a mage... is free, always, outside of training. Consistent accuracy is also great, and Sagittae depleting their health doesn't matter much when you should be fortifying every turn past a certain point. As for Excalibur, it wouldn't be so good if not for the turnwheel allowing you to rig crits, making it much more consistent than it would be otherwise. Also, 12/3(4?) isn't hefty really. Male mages have it relatively easy on that front, it's female mages that suffer from requiring high investment.

Outside of that, yeah, Luthier behaves largely the same as Mage!Kliff without speed wells, give or take some durability. Though if you're going to use mage!Kliff, he's probably getting at least one well charge because otherwise, there's really not that much of a reason to bother, he's probably the one character in Alm's team that needs it most. As I said earlier in this thread though, it's absolutely one of his worst class options... but then again he's pretty much at least decent at everything.

There is enough wine to sell and you get enough gold pieces to trade for silvers and still have remaining to forge all the special weapons you need. No mage in Alm's route will reasonably promote without dungeon grinding. What mages are good at is at gang killing knights in Act 4 by trading each other the Mage Ring, and you never need to promote any of them. A Mage Tobin with 31 HP, 10 Mag and 10 spd is still performing quite well against generals in the map before Rudolf. If someone with stats that lousy can still be of use than the so called glory of Mage Kliff is largely overrated. 

[DisobeyedCargo]

Also I don't get the whole mages falling off thing . Yes they have no extra movement, but they never became obsolete for me, especially since nearly all enemies have non existent resistance aside from stuff like dreadfighterz.

[L9999]

27 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Also I don't get the whole mages falling off thing . Yes they have no extra movement, but they never became obsolete for me, especially since nearly all enemies have non existent resistance aside from stuff like dreadfighterz.

Movement is the key. There are various maps in which that weakness hinders them. They make a comeback in Act 4 to get rid of knights, and you can do it with base Delthea, base Luthier, and 10 mag 10 spd Tobin. The other enemies die easily to your other units. 

[Cysx]

On 28/05/2018 at 3:06 AM, L9999 said:

There is enough wine to sell and you get enough gold pieces to trade for silvers and still have remaining to forge all the special weapons you need. No mage in Alm's route will reasonably promote without dungeon grinding. What mages are good at is at gang killing knights in Act 4 by trading each other the Mage Ring, and you never need to promote any of them. A Mage Tobin with 31 HP, 10 Mag and 10 spd is still performing quite well against generals in the map before Rudolf. If someone with stats that lousy can still be of use than the so called glory of Mage Kliff is largely overrated. 

I mispoke, forging on its own is generally fine, it's upgrading that's extremely expensive, but also something you definitely want to do some of for effective weapons and killer bows. That being said, you're probably not making any regalia weapon, so your statement isn't quite correct anyway. Define dungeon grinding.

8x2 damage against enemies with 44 HP doesn't seem all that great to me. He'd need two crits to OHKO, which is generally too much to ask for even with turnwheel abuse.

[L9999]

On 30/5/2018 at 4:16 AM, Cysx said:

I mispoke, forging on its own is generally fine, it's upgrading that's extremely expensive, but also something you definitely want to do some of for effective weapons and killer bows. That being said, you're probably not making any regalia weapon, so your statement isn't quite correct anyway. Define dungeon grinding.

8x2 damage against enemies with 44 HP doesn't seem all that great to me. He'd need two crits to OHKO, which is generally too much to ask for even with turnwheel abuse.

Dungeon grinding is killing enemies there.

Tobin's chip is enough to wear down those guys. Actually it is 30 - general res because of Excalibur. No one said Tobin needed to ORKO.

[DisobeyedCargo]

1 minute ago, L9999 said:

Dungeon grinding is killing enemies there.

Tobin's chip is enough to wear down those guys. Actually it is 30 - general res because of Excalibur. No one said Tobin needed to ORKO.

I find it really funny that your the strongest arguer against Mage kliff but your profile pic is kliff

still, isn't it preferable to ORKO than not? So other units can go kill other enemies?

[L9999]

9 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

I find it really funny that your the strongest arguer against Mage kliff but your profile pic is kliff

still, isn't it preferable to ORKO than not? So other units can go kill other enemies?

I have a very positive opinion of Kliff you know? It is Mage Kliff that is trash, Merc Kliff and Archer Kliff are good. My pfp has nothing to do with my views, I don't even like Kliff.

Mages have bad bases so their stats don't pick up to ORKO generals, not that they need to.

Edited June 2, 2018 by L9999