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Mage Kliff is fine. I had him as a mage in my first playthrough and he did just fine.

I think the problem is people conflating something being "sub-optimal" with "bad" when that really isn't the case.

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No mage with a non generic spell list is bad.

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I think he's awesome in chapter 1 and for a lot of the early/mid-game. He's good throughout, but he can be overshadowed by Delthea, or may get a little screwed over in growths.

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46 minutes ago, Logjam said:

I think he's awesome in chapter 1 and for a lot of the early/mid-game. He's good throughout, but he can be overshadowed by Delthea, or may get a little screwed over in growths.

Base 1 AS, gets doubled by literally everything, forced to have 4 more spd than the enemies because Fire is a heavy brick. Yeah, totally awesome unit. Mage Kliff needs 9 consecutive spd procs to even double Slayde, who is the fastest enemy in Act 1 and Slayde still slower than enemies found beyond Act 1. Kliff flat out won't double anything unless you overfeed him kills, which shows how inflexible he is. Compare that to Merc Kliff, who with the Thunder Sword can double Slayde with only 3 spd procs and can double every enemy prior with 1.

23 hours ago, Rezzy said:

No mage with a non generic spell list is bad.

So Nomah is good?

Edited by L9999

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5 hours ago, L9999 said:

So Nomah is good?

He can replace Boey pretty easy, who falls off later because he is slow and learns his best spell, just Excalibur, quite late, to the point I normally never get to promote him.

In the long run with grinding Boey will outdo Nomah, but otherwise they'll be virtually identical- good for a minor close range heal and a chip via Saggitae/Excalibur/Thunder. Inferior to Mae, Celica, Genny, and probably Sonya. Nomah is not good, but not a real liability, save in Duma Tower, where he is taking up a precious unit slot and Bow Knights in the Tower can ORKO (or is it 2RKO?) him, if you care about him dying or not. Nomah needs no investment to be his banal self either. 

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Overshadowed on the power front for sure compared to Delthea.

I still think he has some advantages, given his access to spells with 2-3 range and Excaliber which Delthea doesn't have. To say he's bad is wrong imo, though he is someone I'd try other classes with because of his growths. I've used him in Hard Mode and while I think he was worth using, I also think I'd go with a different class in future.

Thing is, this is measurable on two fronts: compared to his other classes and compared to the other villagers. On one front I understand the complaints about Kliff working better with other classes, but on the other hand Tobin's only weapon advantages are Physic and lower Excaliber access (only one of which I'd really think is worth bringing up in the long run), Gray is plain worse full stop because he'll run into growth difficulties in the long run and his spell list is just bad and Faye has Serahpim access and arguably better bases on average (this ignores her Pegasus Knight and Cleric access). Kliff's real issue is the low base speed, which he can arguably get ahead of over time, but that start puts enough people off for them to consider Tobin instead. I'd argue Faye.... if she didn't have much lower HP in comparison.

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23 hours ago, Dayni said:

Overshadowed on the power front for sure compared to Delthea.

I still think he has some advantages, given his access to spells with 2-3 range and Excaliber which Delthea doesn't have. To say he's bad is wrong imo, though he is someone I'd try other classes with because of his growths. I've used him in Hard Mode and while I think he was worth using, I also think I'd go with a different class in future.

Thing is, this is measurable on two fronts: compared to his other classes and compared to the other villagers. On one front I understand the complaints about Kliff working better with other classes, but on the other hand Tobin's only weapon advantages are Physic and lower Excaliber access (only one of which I'd really think is worth bringing up in the long run), Gray is plain worse full stop because he'll run into growth difficulties in the long run and his spell list is just bad and Faye has Serahpim access and arguably better bases on average (this ignores her Pegasus Knight and Cleric access). Kliff's real issue is the low base speed, which he can arguably get ahead of over time, but that start puts enough people off for them to consider Tobin instead. I'd argue Faye.... if she didn't have much lower HP in comparison.

Delthea isn't that good of a unit so I don't see the point of comparison beyond the pitfalled view of comparing units only with those of its class. Delthea can have 1-3 range with the Mage Ring, which can be mailed over from Celica's before doing Act 4 of Alm's. Delthea is good for triggering witch AI, which is 56 times more useful than anything Mage Kliff does. 

Kliff's other classes are superior in everything. As archer he can reasonably reach 6 or 7 spd before Python joins, giving him an advantage in AS to use a Killer Bow. Mercenary has way better bases and Kliff's combat is strictly superior. "But Gray is the mercenary." You can use both. Novelty concept I know.

Tobin's advantage isn't Excalibur or Physic, it is his bases. With 2 spd procs as Villager he can reach 7 spd, which gives him pretty good combat without hogging spd wells or grinding for 10 minutes like Kliff does. Tobin doesn't need to kill anything either, his job is to do chip damage and build up shield rank to use Swap. Kliff is useless on arrival and takes too much to get going while Tobin is useful on arrival and remains useful.

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On 5/15/2018 at 5:43 PM, L9999 said:

Base 1 AS, gets doubled by literally everything, forced to have 4 more spd than the enemies because Fire is a heavy brick. Yeah, totally awesome unit. Mage Kliff needs 9 consecutive spd procs to even double Slayde, who is the fastest enemy in Act 1 and Slayde still slower than enemies found beyond Act 1. Kliff flat out won't double anything unless you overfeed him kills, which shows how inflexible he is. Compare that to Merc Kliff, who with the Thunder Sword can double Slayde with only 3 spd procs and can double every enemy prior with 1.

Yes his other classes are pretty good, but I prefer him as my early-game mage before you have any other magic users. Even if he doesn't double anyone, he can attack at 2-3 range without being counter-attacked and do plenty of damage early on. Excalibur and the rest of his spell list aren't bad either. I think one of the ways to make him a little easier to deal with his low starting speed is to give him a few more levels as a villager before promoting. He has a solid speed growth.

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7 hours ago, Logjam said:

Yes his other classes are pretty good, but I prefer him as my early-game mage before you have any other magic users. Even if he doesn't double anyone, he can attack at 2-3 range without being counter-attacked and do plenty of damage early on. Excalibur and the rest of his spell list aren't bad either. I think one of the ways to make him a little easier to deal with his low starting speed is to give him a few more levels as a villager before promoting. He has a solid speed growth.

Needing assistance in stats out of the story maps expose how unflexible is Kliff. To put it into perspective:

Map 1-1: Can be beaten in 2 turns. Kliff slows you down so he gets a single kill.

Map 1-2: Can be beaten in 3 turns. Kliff still has his horrid bases. Can level up at least.

Brigand Boss: Can be beaten in 1 turn with an Iron Sword crit. If you 2 turn it Kliff can get to level 3 killing Brigand Boss.

Mage has 4 base speed. Kliff can gain 2 levels when playing this game efficiently. In 2 levels he can't go past the class bases, so he is stuck with a horrid 1 AS.

Now, compare that to Tobin with the same turn span.

Map 1-1: He can get to lv 2 30 exp without being a burden. Can get to 7 spd with a proc, 25% but not impossible.

Map 1-2: Tobin gains another level without being a burden once again. Can get to 8 spd.

Tobin got past the mage bases. No wells, no grinding and he is fast enough to double every enemy in Act 1 that isn't a cavalier.

"But Kliff can attack from range."

He can, but with how high the HP of the enemies is it doesn't amount to anything. Kliff does 11 damage to the generics in Act 1, while Tobin does 22. Against 26-32 HP enemies it shows who actually is helping out. A highlight to Tobin's performance is bringing soldiers in 1-4 to very low HP, and those soldiers are very bulky. Leather Shield Tobin can take 3 of them on and live, unlike Kliff who with all the spd wells (7 spd, 4 AS) gets doubled and dies. Those spd wells belong to Silque to begin with so even with favoritism Kliff underperforms compared to Tobin.

Edited by L9999

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On 15/05/2018 at 11:43 PM, L9999 said:

Base 1 AS, gets doubled by literally everything, forced to have 4 more spd than the enemies because Fire is a heavy brick. Yeah, totally awesome unit. Mage Kliff needs 9 consecutive spd procs to even double Slayde, who is the fastest enemy in Act 1 and Slayde still slower than enemies found beyond Act 1. Kliff flat out won't double anything unless you overfeed him kills, which shows how inflexible he is. Compare that to Merc Kliff, who with the Thunder Sword can double Slayde with only 3 spd procs and can double every enemy prior with 1.

So Nomah is good?

Remember Kliff gets Excalibur down the line as well, which shaves off 2 points from the speed he needs. His main problem early on is getting there, by that point he's generally fine combat-wise.

I remember speed ring Nomah being pretty capable thanks to doubling a few annoying targets with Sagittae.

On 19/05/2018 at 5:27 AM, L9999 said:

-snip-

No offense, but that's one biased chart if I've ever seen one.

- Tobin starts at LV 2.

- Both have bad deployment slots early on, so while Kliff's contribution in ltc is reasonably described here, Tobin's really isn't. Realistically neither will get to do much.

- Even assuming a 25% growth procs twice in a row for some reason(would take 8 levels on average), 5 AS does not double everything in act 1 but cavs.

- Lv 2 mage Kliff with a leather shield has 9 def on average. The 1-4 soldiers have 11 attack. I'm pretty sure he can take them even if he gets doubled.

- Well!Kliff's 4 AS means he isn't getting doubled, and Tobin is unlikely to get to the 8 spd necessary to double them in 3 to 4 level ups.

- Please sell me on the speed wells going to Silque because I see very little short term advantage to it(in terms of exp gain which I assume is what this is about), and hardly any long term ones either.

Edited by Cysx

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19 minutes ago, Cysx said:

 

- Please sell me on the speed wells going to Silque because I see very little short term advantage to it(in terms of exp gain which I assume is what this is about), and hardly any long term ones either.

Same here, it doesn't extend her range like attack would for heals, and she's so fragile I wouldn't want to risk her on the front lines with her only attack having 60 hit  

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4 hours ago, Cysx said:

Remember Kliff gets Excalibur down the line as well, which shaves off 2 points from the speed he needs. His main problem early on is getting there, by that point he's generally fine combat-wise.

Kliff learns Excalibur by level 9. It'll be well into act 3 by the time he gets it, and by that point mages are overshadowed by practically every class barring Soldiers. 
 
4 hours ago, Cysx said:

 Both have bad deployment slots early on, so while Kliff's contribution in ltc is reasonably described here, Tobin's really isn't. Realistically neither will get to do much.

If anything, Tobin shines the most in a LTC since he's can consistently double all the units before and in Thieves Shrine, while Kliff cannot, allowing him to promote by then rather then later like Kliff needs to. 
 
Besides, LTC is a bad metric to judge units by, as it skews a unit's role by denying units the resources they need. Using LTC as metric to judge units would mean units such as Catria and Kamui would be considered mediocre units since there's not enough experience to promote them, as most experience will be funneled to Saber and Palla, even though they're roughly on par with them in normal play. 
 
4 hours ago, Cysx said:

 Well!Kliff's 4 AS means he isn't getting doubled, and Tobin is unlikely to get to the 8 spd necessary to double them in 3 to 4 level ups.

Except that involves giving him all three points of speed, which can very valuable for letting other units hit some benchmarks.

For example, by promoting Clive to Paladin and giving him a point of speed, he is then able to double a majority of Cavaliers in act 3 with the Ridersbane. 
 
By giving a point to Archer!Tobin, it allows him to double archers in 3-5 with the Killer Bow equipped  with only needing one proc of speed and helps him to learn Hunter's Volley faster. 
 
A point could also be given to Slique, allowing her to avoid being doubled by enemy archers and also allows her to double some of the bandits in 1-3, thus allowing her the chance to get more experience for warp. 
 
All of these are better cases to give points of speed to rather then a unit who's still reliant on the RNG to hit the benchmark to reliably double enemy units even with all three. 
 
4 hours ago, Cysx said:

Please sell me on the speed wells going to Silque because I see very little short term advantage to it(in terms of exp gain which I assume is what this is about), and hardly any long term ones either.

Because Warp is just that valuable. Being able to move a unit additional tiles without have to account for terrain is huge boon in practically every map, not to mention allows for many more strategies that would have been otherwise impossible. 
 
A prime example of this  would be 1-7, Zofia Gate. By allowing Silque to get Warp by that point, not only can you remove the threat of archers form attacking someone unable to counterattack,  it allows for units to bait the group of cavaliers to attacking you on the stairs, thus not having to suffer the terrain penalties of tiles.
 
Though, I do agree with giving all three points to her to achieve this is a bit extreme.

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