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General Character Usefulness Discussion


Smfthegeek
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On 4/15/2018 at 6:48 AM, Folt said:

Errata: Robin's moveset: I've done some testing now that Tharja finally got Astra and she's... got some differences alright:

For the first thing, I can now confirm that Goetia is not just Rexaura with a different animation. It lasts about 1 second more than Rexaura but there's more time in-between each hit and it doesn't keep the opponent in place which means they're able to recover and escape some of these hits... including the final hit! In addition, only Goetia's last hit hits behind Tharja while Rexaura hits behind Robin for all of them. So to sum it up: Goetia lasts longer, deals less damage on average to both HP and Stun Gauge, and is less safe than Rexaura in general.

Furthermore, with Robin, I can do this:

And while I have had some success in replicating this with Tharja (except for the part where I managed to execute the crit, the Stun Gauge went away just before the final hit), it seems much harder to do with her. (I blame her weird dodge.)

Bold: Kids, there's nothing like spamming a powerful move to attack weak points for massive damage! But when the move is unsafe to execute and leaves you open, that's no good!

On 4/14/2018 at 8:27 PM, MrPerson0 said:

For most, if not, all characters, I have moved on to a Luna/Astra/Lethality/Galeforce/Vengeance/filler (Luck +20 is paired up, Long Wolf if not). Tables and ShadowMario3 seem to have done some testing and agreed that Vengeance at 1 HP is a 300-400% boost, which basically makes it "always Lethality" for normal and strong attacks. With Prayer Crest III, you should be able to take three hits at 1 HP before dying. However, in Awakening Mode, you can never go below 1 HP, so this synergizes very well with Galeforce as long as you have a lot of captains in the area to maintain your Awakening. In this case, will be good to have both Prayer Crest III and Serenity Crest III (Fills the Awakening gauge much faster) on your unit.

Erm, what? Do the Prayer Crests even allow you to survive if you were already at 1 HP?

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7 hours ago, smfthegeek said:

I do agree that her combos leave her rather unsafe but slap critical focus on Aura

There's two issues here.

1) This doesn't make her C1 any less safe. As soon as it's done executing, everything is stunned. The danger is during, not after.

2) Why even bother? You're going to expose gold stun gauges which are trivial to break. Same for the other mages. Robin/Tharja can just C1 > C5 for a guaranteed, fairly quick break on everything. Even Linde can do something similar I believe. If she needs Critical Focus to break a gold gauge reliably, man, that sucks. Less damage stacking potential if you need a weapon slot for that.

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3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Erm, what? Do the Prayer Crests even allow you to survive if you were already at 1 HP?

I don't see why not. Once you reach 1 HP through normal methods, that is only one crest used, which means you should have two remaining (assuming you have all three). It is unknown if they are used while you are in Awakening mode, but I doubt it.

 

12 minutes ago, r_n said:

Critical Focus on the mages is still handy for when you're using dual strikes, at least.

Probably, but you'd still rather focus on yellow stun gauges with them. If you really have to focus on dual strikes, a warrior special should be enough to break the gauge.

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2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I don't see why not. Once you reach 1 HP through normal methods, that is only one crest used, which means you should have two remaining (assuming you have all three). It is unknown if they are used while you are in Awakening mode, but I doubt it.

 

Probably, but you'd still rather focus on yellow stun gauges with them. If you really have to focus on dual strikes, a warrior special should be enough to break the gauge.

I don't like wasting warrior specials on vanilla gauges if I can blitz through them normally, unless there's a lot of captains that got caught in the crossfire or if I am in a bad situatio and need an out asap. Consider it a difference in play styles, I guess. 

Actually I'm still a little skiddish using specials, especially dual specials, in general, just because of crashes. I think the latest update finally fixed it, but it conditioned me to use specials only if i really need to get out of a situation or there's just a really good opportunity i can't pass up.

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13 minutes ago, r_n said:

I don't like wasting warrior specials on vanilla gauges if I can blitz through them normally, unless there's a lot of captains that got caught in the crossfire or if I am in a bad situatio and need an out asap. Consider it a difference in play styles, I guess. 

Actually I'm still a little skiddish using specials, especially dual specials, in general, just because of crashes. I think the latest update finally fixed it, but it conditioned me to use specials only if i really need to get out of a situation or there's just a really good opportunity i can't pass up.

Guess it's up to the player. I find it useless to have Critical Focus on Archers and Mages due to how easy it is for them to get yellow stun gauges.

Yeah, pretty sure the latest update fixed the crashes for most people. I have been spamming Robin's dual special like there's no tomorrow, and I am noticing more frame drops than usual, which I assume is the fix.

Edited by MrPerson0
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1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

Guess it's up to the player. I find it useless to have Critical Focus on Archers and Mages due to how easy it is for them to get yellow stun gauges.

Yeah, pretty sure the latest update fixed the crashes for most people. I have been spamming Robin's dual special to no tomorrow, and I am noticing more frame drops than usual, which I assume is the fix.

I don't know how people abuse archers. I feel like it takes way too long to get there and i always get hit out of it by random stuff. And even when I finally hit one with it there's a lot of times where it knocks them back in such a way that the guage just disappers before I can make progress on it? Even with all the badges? That's not really an archer-specific issue but I notice it enough with them thats its just like "well that was a total waste of time". The gauges in this game are weird...sometimes landing on their back removes it instantly no matter what, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes the gauge very definitely disappears before a combo starts but i'll instantly break it as my combo starts????

Anyway I should note I've not thrown critical focus on all my magse & archers and wouldn't fight to the death to have it on ~optimal builds~, just that there's nice use cases depending on your play style. I just don't like grinding out skills, so I have like 2 across all of them and it's nice when it comes up but I don't worry about it even if my others deal with normal gauges more often than not.

Also that's good to know, honestly feel like it's something that should have been explicitly stated but I guess acknowledinge this months-present game crashing bug would be bad press.

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10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: Kids, there's nothing like spamming a powerful move to attack weak points for massive damage! But when the move is unsafe to execute and leaves you open, that's no good!

No idea what you're trying to say here, because that should be pretty obvious. Especially if the majority of the move's power lies in that final hit so not being able to hit with it is no good.

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16 hours ago, Tables said:

There's two issues here.

1) This doesn't make her C1 any less safe. As soon as it's done executing, everything is stunned. The danger is during, not after.

2) Why even bother? You're going to expose gold stun gauges which are trivial to break. Same for the other mages. Robin/Tharja can just C1 > C5 for a guaranteed, fairly quick break on everything. Even Linde can do something similar I believe. If she needs Critical Focus to break a gold gauge reliably, man, that sucks. Less damage stacking potential if you need a weapon slot for that.

No I meant critical focus makes it easier to break white gauges. With critical focus she has no need to use her c1 because the weapon skill allows her to easily break normal stun gauges not the yellow ones. Are you kidding me? no one struggles to break yellow stun gauges. I'm not THAT big of an idiot :Sedgar: because of critical focus her bad C1 is no longer an issue because she doesn't need to use it.

Edited by smfthegeek
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I think we should assemble a tier list. (unless it's already been done lol) 

The layout could be ranking classes and then rank the characters within each individual class from best to worse.

It's just that I have yet to find an actually good and accurate tier list.

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8 hours ago, Folt said:

No idea what you're trying to say here, because that should be pretty obvious. Especially if the majority of the move's power lies in that final hit so not being able to hit with it is no good.

Yeah, that's just a fancy way of saying that Goetia isn't spammable like Rexaura is. Partly because they can slip out of it, thus being able to avoid the final hit, and the other part (which the former problem also contributes to) is that it leaves you open to getting knocked out of it (at least if you're not running Armored Blow). Both of those combined are no good. Also, in case you couldn't tell by the way I posted that, one, I was bored, and two, I had seen stuff about a meme about "that's no good" and just inserted that into the post. 

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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8 minutes ago, smfthegeek said:

I think we should assemble a tier list. (unless it's already been done lol) 

The layout could be ranking classes and then rank the characters within each individual class from best to worse.

It's just that I have yet to find an actually good and accurate tier list.

Here's a pretty good tier list 

 

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15 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

I don't see why not. Once you reach 1 HP through normal methods, that is only one crest used, which means you should have two remaining (assuming you have all three). It is unknown if they are used while you are in Awakening mode, but I doubt it.

 

But in this instance, you're having Vengeance drain your HP all the way down to 1. Wouldn't the first hit taken after that just KO you?

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2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

But in this instance, you're having Vengeance drain your HP all the way down to 1. Wouldn't the first hit taken after that just KO you?

No, because you haven't used any of your Prayers Crests yet.

Here's a pretty good tier list 

TL;DW image: https://imgur.com/a/brdsC

Overall, I do agree with him most of his placements, but Caeda below SSS is just plain wrong imo, since Pegasus Knights are really useful with their movement, great waveclear, and dueling capabilities.

Edited by MrPerson0
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Honestly, the best thing about that tier list was the closing statement. I agree with him that in the end the beauty of a warriors game is that you can take a character you love and decimate anything in your path. It's just in how you build the character ^~^

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Oh, god, not Ni Li's meme list again.

 

The list isn't terrible, but there's so many issues with it. It got ripped to shreds over on the GFaqs board due to it just generally not making sense in a load of places. By and large, it feels like it was made without real regard for how the characters perform when played well, and simply just based on initial impressions. For example:

  • Wyverns in top tier, when they have some of the worst 1v1 dueling in the game and general struggle on any map with several character enemies
  • Niles as 2nd best archer. No idea where this one came from
  • Lyn and Navarre in top tier, above better sword users like Chrom, Lucina, Xander.
  • Robin like a tier and a bit ahead of Tharja. He's better, but not much better.
  • Pegasii Knights all over the place
  • Lissa in High, when she's pretty unremarkable at everything.

I still don't feel qualified to make a tier list, but making one right now I think it would look something like:

 

Top
Caeda
Anna
Takumi
 
High
Hinoka
Sakura
Xander
Minerva
Cordelia
Elise
Camilla
Robin
Olivia
Tiki
Niles
Leo
Tharja
 
Mid
Lucina
Chrom
Linde
Lyn
Navarre
Lianna
Rowan
Azura
Ryoma
 
Low
Frederick
Marth
Celica
Owain
Lissa
Oboro
Corrin
 

 

Don't ask me to defend this too vigorously. I (slightly hypocritically) went a bit off of gut feeling rather than analysing the data, although I've looked at a decent amount of the data in the past. I know @Folt probably won't be too pleased to see me valuing luck so highly now, but honestly the difference between +100% damage from Luna and 100% lethality, and +33% damage from Luna and 50% lethality (200 and 100 luck respectively) is just crazy. Small luck differences don't matter much, certainly, but large ones make a huge difference and can easily make up for a weaker moveset.

 

Also having actually tested out the wyverns in a bit more detail, I was kinda shocked how unreasonably effective just butt stomping everything actually is. That Fury Builder bonus quickly adds up. Character officers slow you down, but you rack up KOs so fast that it doesn't even matter much. They're still not the best in general, and really do struggle in duels where they don't have an effective weapon, but they can get you through stuff much better than I though they could.

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7 minutes ago, Tables said:

 

Low
Frederick
Marth
Celica
Owain
Lissa
Oboro
Corrin
 

I wouldn't say Lissa is low tier. Her C6 is amazing at racking up KOs and her C5 can instantly break white stun gauges (non character captains). Also, her C1 raises all her stats and if you give her weapon topsy-tuvey (or with statflip as well), she becomes significantly stronger and the best magic dealing axe user. Her luck is pretty decent too so she can utilise Lethality and Luna well.

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I feel like the best way to do a tier list would probably be to group movesets together and rank them within that. With everyone having their own weapon and all the skills and weapon attributes to throw around it feels pretty pointless to list each character separately, with the possible exception of Caeda since she can have three slayers. I think I would order it like:

Minerva/Camilla
Navarre/Lyn
Anna/Takumi/Sakura/Niles
Olivia
Caeda/Hinoka/Cordelia
Oboro
Robin/Tharja
Rowan/Lianna
Lucina/Chrom
Azura
Linde
Owain/Ryoma
Xander
Marth/Celica
Tiki
Lissa
Elise/Leo
Frederick
Corrin

Like Tables, this is pretty much gut feeling and personal experience playing as all of them. You can probably swap a few of the ones that are close to each other around.

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Speaking of Owain, how is he statistically relative to Ryoma? I would assume he's more balanced in terms of strength and magic, at least.

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1 hour ago, Tables said:

I still don't feel qualified to make a tier list, but making one right now I think it would look something like

I don't believe anyone is qualified to make an offiicial tier list for this game, even those who put it 500+ hours into the game to fully 100% it (@ShadowMario3, there are probably a few others). Not only is it PvE, there are so many people with so many different playstyles who play this game, there will never be a group that will agree on a tier list, and thus, there will never be a definitive tier list.

 

Edited by MrPerson0
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25 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Speaking of Owain, how is he statistically relative to Ryoma? I would assume he's more balanced in terms of strength and magic, at least.

                     Ryoma            Owain

Strength:     142                 130

Magic:         12                   130

Skill             141                 152

Speed:        171                  148

Luck:           142                  99

Defense      107                  89

Resistance: 92                   81

If we just go by their raw stats Ryoma wins in all stats except magic (which Ryoma doesn't need) and skill. Ryoma is a powerhouse whose high strength and luck can deal with captains and bosses easily while Owain is for the most part a weaker variant of him. Doesn't stop people like me who prefer using Owain anyways and there is always Resonating Power I guess.

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People find the peg knights in warriors to not be good? They just haven't seen me play Cordelia.

Anyways for tier list, I'd say there's really 3 areas that need to be factored in: Enemy wave clearing (I'd give Wyverns the top for that), 1v1 (I'm personally going Marth, but Lyn, Lucina, or Ryoma can be here as well. And the reason for Marth is i find his C3 works great on weak gauge spam and his entire normal combo can easily do half a gauge, plus his speed and attack are good) and the third one is general utility. The one I'd say excel the best at this is probably controversial, but Lissa is my choice. She can defend a fort easily, heal allies, crowd clear, and 1v1. She may not be the best at all of those but she gets the job done, I can get most of the way through a map, nearly lose the ally base due to getting carried away, swap to her, and not only defend, but reclaim and push back the enemy offense. i have her about level 70 cause I rarely play warriors anymore sadly( I want to, but find it tedious when the progress I have to make are not fun objectives or lots of grinding, whether gold, exp, ko, or supports) and she rekted a level 100 Velzerak (I think that's his name, the chaos dragon) just by merely unloading her specials and awakening gauge (also may help her that I gave her the Hero Axe so she has a powerful weapon)

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On 4/14/2018 at 8:22 PM, MrPerson0 said:

Also, I listed one of the biggest reasons, her fully charged C1 is terrible if it leaves her wide open to attacks from behind and is slow.

Just to note, I have had Linde's fully charged C1 expose a gauge behind her.  From what I remember, it didn't hit the captain as they were still moving around, but the gauge was exposed right at the end of the C1 as though it had hit (yellow gauge).  However, it's been a while since this happened, and I haven't really looked into it or tried to replicate it.  It's possible that it was more of a fluke, or simply that the back range on Robin/Tharja is greater than on Linde.

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2 hours ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

Just to note, I have had Linde's fully charged C1 expose a gauge behind her.  From what I remember, it didn't hit the captain as they were still moving around, but the gauge was exposed right at the end of the C1 as though it had hit (yellow gauge).  However, it's been a while since this happened, and I haven't really looked into it or tried to replicate it.  It's possible that it was more of a fluke, or simply that the back range on Robin/Tharja is greater than on Linde.

I think the major issue everyone has with her C1 is this:

 

As you can see with that video at the timestamp, the mage manages to backflip OUT of the fully charged C1. IIRC, a select few (or all) infantry units backflip in the air in the general (I do not believe this will ever be "fixed" because them backflipping in the air isn't really a glitch), and if they do this with Linde, you literally wasted a C1. This is why many people prefer Robin/Tharja fully charged C1 because enemies can't block or dodge out of it.

Edited by MrPerson0
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18 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I think the major issue everyone has with her C1 is this:

 

As you can see with that video at the timestamp, the mage manages to backflip OUT of the fully charged C1. IIRC, a select few (or all) infantry units backflip in the air in the general (I do not believe this will ever be "fixed" because them backflipping in the air isn't really a glitch), and if they do this with Linde, you literally wasted a C1. This is why many people prefer Robin/Tharja fully charged C1 because enemies can't block or dodge out of it.

I get that, and wasn't trying to contest how useful Linde was.  Just pointing out that it at least may be possible for it to hit behind her in some way, though not significantly enough to mitigate how open it otherwise leaves her.

I'm also not sure how useful my information is, as it happened it's only happened once, and it was when I whiffed the C1 completely and the captain ended up behind me.  So I don't know if it's even repeatable.  Was just putting out that I saw it happen.

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