We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[Snike]

I have dropped off past phase bc A)Phase started during my final exam and I had to move out next day so was preoccupied with that.

B)honestly more than a little demotivated by the arcanite townflip.

On Beru: Still can't quote but I wasn't going to believe the claim until I saw kaoz flip. I think it is more credible atm, but I still dk if it can be on same team as Omega.

[Percivalé]

have we asked the hosts if targeting fable's role would result in a failed action hypothetically

[EvanManManMan]

15 minutes ago, Makaze said:

What alternative mindset do you imagine for Shinori?

I can see the laziness argument. It's not nearly as bad as the way Shinori handled them.

Once again, what do you think happened if Mack was motivated for n3?

You never gave any real evidence on Shinori's side. You just pointed out one progression that seemingly has nothing wrong and another post which doesn't give associations with Walrein.

Idek what Mack was anyways.

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:

Your reasons for clearing Walrein were shit. You just said "He is lock town because his tone" and left it at that. Yes it was unique but it was unique for a reason. That being said I want you to rewrite this argument because you make it seem like you cleared Walrein for actual reasons.

I'm not sure where you got that idea.

I cleared Walrein based on tone. I read like the first five posts of his ISO and towncleared him without looking further. I was also hard into my eclipse tunnel and immediately found something that made him never w/w with eclipse. I never gave it a second thought after that.

I'm saying that if I was trying to pocket Walrein with my town read of him I would have shown actual interest in why he was town and made him believe my read was genuine. I tend to believe that people who townread me for no reason have TMI and townread people who suspect me for these same reasons. I expect the same kind of skepticism from Walrein. I am surprised to find that he didn't have it then and doesn't have it now, even after I've flipped on him. It's uncanny.

I can see a world where I genuinely believe I am right about him and a world where I am trying to make a show of clearing him to the rest of the town, but not one where I'm pocketing him. This isn't how I would do it and this isn't how Walrein would respond if I did.

[Percivalé]

I have to go to work bbl

[Makaze]

6 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:

You never gave any real evidence on Shinori's side. You just pointed out one progression that seemingly has nothing wrong and another post which doesn't give associations with Walrein.

Idek what Mack was anyways.

Uh

The evidence speaks for itself. Shinori shaded Walrein. He did it again. Then very soon after, he denied EVER mentioning Walrein, to eclipse. Then he goes "Why are you focusing on my read of Walrein and not Eury? Huh? Huh?"

Throughout all of this he never asks Walrein any questions, and Walrein doesn't even react to this contradiction. I don't know about you, but if someone had shaded me and then denied it, I'd have at least corrected them and asked "What is your read of me, then?" Instead, Walrein just out of nowhere puts Shinori in their town pile. Walrein has ALSO questioned or commented on all of their other reasons, with much less conspicuous cases.

It's just too weird of an interaction.

I understand if you disagree, but my stance is that every action makes sense from that person's point of view. If this makes sense from Shinori when Walrein is town, there is some logic to how he acted about it.

I have my interpretation. I'd like to hear yours other than "I don't see yours".

Edited April 23, 2018 by Makaze
pronouns

[EvanManManMan]

7 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I'm not sure where you got that idea.

I cleared Walrein based on tone. I read like the first five posts of his ISO and towncleared him without looking further. I was also hard into my eclipse tunnel and immediately found something that made him never w/w with eclipse. I never gave it a second thought after that.

I'm saying that if I was trying to pocket Walrein with my town read of him I would have shown actual interest in why he was town and made him believe my read was genuine. I tend to believe that people who townread me for no reason have TMI and townread people who suspect me for these same reasons. I expect the same kind of skepticism from Walrein. I am surprised to find that he didn't have it then and doesn't have it now, even after I've flipped on him. It's uncanny.

I can see a world where I genuinely believe I am right about him and a world where I am trying to make a show of clearing him to the rest of the town, but not one where I'm pocketing him. This isn't how I would do it and this isn't how Walrein would respond if I did.

Pocketing somebody doesn't require high attention to detail. It just requires pandering to your audience. If giving him free towncred is what panders to him then he will do it. I also can't take your defense of "That's not what I would do to pocket him" seriously. Saying you wouldn't do something means nothing. It means absolutely nothing. Why? Because you can simply ignore that statement and do the opposite. This site has better players than I am used to but the one criticism I have is how everybody uses self meta and treats meta like fact. Like no, that's not how it works and mafia is way more complex than that.

[EvanManManMan]

8 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Uh

The evidence speaks for itself. Shinori shaded Walrein. He did it again. Then very soon after, he denied EVER mentioning Walrein, to eclipse. Then he goes "Why are you focusing on my read of Walrein and not Eury? Huh? Huh?"

Throughout all of this he never asks Walrein any questions, and Walrein doesn't even react to this contradiction. I don't know about you, but if someone had shaded me and then denied it, I'd have at least corrected them and asked "What is your read of me, then?" Instead, Walrein just out of nowhere puts Shinori in their town pile. Walrein has ALSO questioned or commented on all of their other reasons, with much less conspicuous cases.

It's just too weird of an interaction.

I understand if you disagree, but my stance is that every action makes sense from that person's point of view. If this makes sense from Shinori when Walrein is town, there is some logic to how he acted about it.

I have my interpretation. I'd like to hear yours other than "I don't see yours".

If that's the context you failed to give any of that in your post and I would like it rewritten so i can understand what you are saying

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

On 4/12/2018 at 6:00 PM, Iris said:

Day 1.Final Vote Count
Bartozio (10): Jaybee, WeaponsofMassConstruction, BBM, Zkirsche, athena57, Nightmare, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Fable, Fenrir, Refa
athena_57 (4): , Shinori, eclipse, Eurykins
Magnificence Incarnate (3): Walrein, vi-astra, Bartozio
zeus_112 (2): Bibbon, Fable
Zkirsche (1): Junk
Junk (1): Magnificence Incarnate
Shinori (1): Elieson
Bibbon (1): zeus_112

Not Voting: Eärendil

I need to reread; I'm going to look over some shit later and get back to this game. The wolves/ITP aren't as obvious at this point and I need to refocus.

I think Makaze is scummy, but I've got to say the way Evan has kind of picked at both of us during this divide has me raising my brow.

[EvanManManMan]

What do you mean by "the way I've kind of picked at both of you?"

[Makaze]

Just now, EvanManManMan said:

Pocketing somebody doesn't require high attention to detail. It just requires pandering to your audience. If giving him free towncred is what panders to him then he will do it. I also can't take your defense of "That's not what I would do to pocket him" seriously. Saying you wouldn't do something means nothing. It means absolutely nothing. Why? Because you can simply ignore that statement and do the opposite. This site has better players than I am used to but the one criticism I have is how everybody uses self meta and treats meta like fact. Like no, that's not how it works and mafia is way more complex than that.

Eh, I fundamentally disagree about what I would do, but it's a moot argument because I'm not willing to back up with meta.

I'm not referring to past games, and I kind of dislike self-meta on principle, but I am a highly rational player as both alignments. I don't see the harm in arguing what comes naturally, especially when it's not only about what I would do, but how Walrein would react to it. Do you really think that Walrein would just accept that hard defense of him without questioning it? What about just accepting my flip now that I'm hard casing him? Who does that?

Just now, EvanManManMan said:

If that's the context you failed to give any of that in your post and I would like it rewritten so i can understand what you are saying

ive literally written this same post multiple times

seriously, please do an iso on me

you can use this script to do so:

raw link

[Makaze]

26 minutes ago, Vi-astra said:

have we asked the hosts if targeting fable's role would result in a failed action hypothetically

good point

@Iris @SB. If a Role Bomb existed in the game, would a Motivate action fail against it (same result as roleblock)?

[EvanManManMan]

Mellow players who are lazy and haven't read up would do that, and that is exactly how I perceive Walrein right now. A single read for small reasons is easy to overlook, especially if little emphasis is put on it, which your read follows.

I can't download the program you linked because I'm on mobile. It's not my fault I don't understand the point you are conveying anyways so it's your job to make it clear to me.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, EvanManManMan said:

Mellow players who are lazy and haven't read up would do that, and that is exactly how I perceive Walrein right now. A single read for small reasons is easy to overlook, especially if little emphasis is put on it, which your read follows.

I can't download the program you linked because I'm on mobile. It's not my fault I don't understand the point you are conveying anyways so it's your job to make it clear to me.

fine

this is where I first explained it in more detail: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-4/&do=findComment&comment=5199405

[Makaze]

see the bottom of that post where i have shinori's quotes WITH the posts he was responding to in them

[EvanManManMan]

34 minutes ago, Makaze said:

fine

this is where I first explained it in more detail: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83026-i-dont-need-serenes-forest-mafia-mafia-5-day-4/&do=findComment&comment=5199405

Looking at it with the context it just seems as if you are blowing things our of proportion tbh. I kinda get where you draw your conclusion from but I don't agree. I think that you are taling Shinori's posts as more then they are. He never really shaded Walrein and his denial of mentioning them was something that could easily just be human error. I really thinm that you are stretching the truth here.

[Makaze]

8 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:

Looking at it with the context it just seems as if you are blowing things our of proportion tbh. I kinda get where you draw your conclusion from but I don't agree. I think that you are taling Shinori's posts as more then they are. He never really shaded Walrein and his denial of mentioning them was something that could easily just be human error. I really thinm that you are stretching the truth here.

It's possible.

I still think the Mack stuff is weird too

They could still be town, and their posts today have been very pocketing, tone wise

but I really, really do not want to be wrong a second time

It has to be one of Snike/Walrein anyway

If not both

Snike > Walrein works, we can just lynch Walrein tomorrow if there are more

Edited April 23, 2018 by Makaze
pronouns

[Makaze]

Major, non-subjective issues:

1. Walrein said they needed to read all of the scum and get to interacting with them, but tjhey never actually followed up on it. Yes, they produced reads in their list despite this.

2. If Walrein motivated Mack n2, why did Kaoz die n3? We know Mack could have saved Kaoz because he was redirected to Kirshe by Snike on N2. If he had two actions why would he not save the protective role AND someone else?

Edited April 23, 2018 by Makaze
pronouns

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

Major, non-subjective issues:

1. Walrein said they needed to read all of the scum and get to interacting with them, but tjhey never actually followed up on it. Yes, they produced reads in their list despite this.

2. If Walrein motivated Mack n2, why did Kaoz die n3? We know Mack could have saved Kaoz because he was redirected to Kirshe by Snike on N2. If he had two actions why would he not save the protective role AND someone else?

Yet* not yes, my bad

Edited April 23, 2018 by Makaze
pronouns

[Makaze]

im just wondering how you think someone as lazy as walrein is going to be caught if these smoking guns aren't enough

[Makaze]

@Walrein

please answer my earlier questions where I pinged you, but also:

What happened with your Shinori read? Why was he in your town list at that time when everyone else on your was someone you had commented on or interacted with, and everyone else you had not talked to was null?

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

1 hour ago, EvanManManMan said:

What do you mean by "the way I've kind of picked at both of you?"

I remember you shading me for my self-vote, and now you're going at Makaze. I mean, I applaud the latter, but I think at least 1 wolf/ITP takes advantage of the me/Makaze thing in all worlds, and I think at least 1 anti-town goes at me for the self-vote because that's the kind of level 0 thing wolves love to give people grief over; I really don't want to think that everyone who talked about that is village. I remember your slot was also wagoned yesterday, nearly lynched over Arcanite. I'm also fairly certain you never prove your role in this game as well. I'm thinking you can go atm.

At this point, I pretty much have to lynch someone who has been townread at one point or another. To any villager, I'd suggest analyzing which people you're townreading and try to decide which is the weakest reason. If you think I'm anti-town, I pretty much have to be ITP (unless you think I treated my partners the way I did, which I find unlikely) so keep that in mind as well. 

I'm not crazy about Snike/Walrein lynches, but truth be told I don't think there's an obvious play at this point. I'm just going to vote/lynch people I've townread the least at this point. Makaze can go as well but I don't think I get that today.

##Vote: EvanManManMan

[EvanManManMan]

16 minutes ago, Omega. said:

I remember you shading me for my self-vote, and now you're going at Makaze. I mean, I applaud the latter, but I think at least 1 wolf/ITP takes advantage of the me/Makaze thing in all worlds, and I think at least 1 anti-town goes at me for the self-vote because that's the kind of level 0 thing wolves love to give people grief over; I really don't want to think that everyone who talked about that is village. I remember your slot was also wagoned yesterday, nearly lynched over Arcanite. I'm also fairly certain you never prove your role in this game as well. I'm thinking you can go atm.

At this point, I pretty much have to lynch someone who has been townread at one point or another. To any villager, I'd suggest analyzing which people you're townreading and try to decide which is the weakest reason. If you think I'm anti-town, I pretty much have to be ITP (unless you think I treated my partners the way I did, which I find unlikely) so keep that in mind as well. 

I'm not crazy about Snike/Walrein lynches, but truth be told I don't think there's an obvious play at this point. I'm just going to vote/lynch people I've townread the least at this point. Makaze can go as well but I don't think I get that today.

##Vote: EvanManManMan

The talk about you self voting was minor and I see it more as aasking for clarification than shading. Of course I'm never going to see that I'm shading but everything I did had motivation. You claim that I gave you greif over your self vote, which is fair to an extent, but it is a minor thing and shouldn't be taken majorly.

I'm not taking advantage of either one of you. If I was taking advantage of your interactions I would be pushing for at least one of your lynches and likely taking one's side. I've been neutral on this situation and have remained neutral in terms of wanting to lynch one of you. I have wanted to lynch Snike since day start and that hasn't changed.

If you don't think I can prove my role then that's a fair speculation. However the motivator can be very useful in terms of confirming Walrein and myself, so I implore them to motivate me. If I can get an extra charge I will likely be able to guess correctly by day 6. Whether you are willing to wait is not my decision but you clearly have other people you want to target.

What makes you think Makaze is any less doable than I am? We both had 0 votes until you voted for me iirc.

[SB.]

Day 4.20 - Votals
Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy (4): Alette, EvanManManMan, Baldrick
Omega (2): Via, Beru
Walrein (1):  Makaze
EvanManManMan (1): Omega.

Not Voting: athena_57, Fable, Killthestory, Refa, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Walrein

You have ~27.25 hours left in the day. With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 9 to hammer.
 

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

@Iris @SB. If a Role Bomb existed in the game, would a Motivate action fail against it (same result as roleblock)?

A theoretical motivate action would succeed when used on a passive role even if it had no effect.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, SB. said:

Day 4.20 - Votals
Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy (4): Alette, EvanManManMan, Baldrick
Omega (2): Via, Beru
Walrein (1):  Makaze
EvanManManMan (1): Omega.

Not Voting: athena_57, Fable, Killthestory, Refa, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Walrein

You have ~27.25 hours left in the day. With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 9 to hammer.
 

A theoretical motivate action would succeed when used on a passive role even if it had no effect.

Interesting.

So, Walrein is claiming to have been roleblocked.

That does pretty much clear them if it's true, but then that just weakens my argument about that particular point. I will say this looks good from an "it fits" standpoint, but that doesn't explain what happened with Mack. The fact that all of their other targets are dead does not help.

Tl;DR My major non-subjective concerns are still a thing. @Walrein