We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

Also Shinori, I remember you making a post where you had BBM in your scumpool. Can I get a brief explanation as to your thoughts on him thus far?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

1 minute ago, Fable said:

I don't believe you're reading my posts if you think this. 

I would say the same

[Shinori]

Going into league game cant make big post.

BBM's vote on bibbon followed by a quick vote off of Bibbon struck me as weird and very stand out on day 1.  Also been feeling like he's been defending Kirsche in a weird manner which I dislike.

You could basically compare my BBM thoughts very similiar to your Shinori v Nightmare thoughts I guess.  Except he's done it with like 2 people this game I think so it stands out to me.

In game now.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I’m inclined to believe the cases on Shinori, but truth is I don’t remember anything he’s done so I don’t know if I can subscribe in good faith

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

On 4/11/2018 at 12:58 AM, Nightmare said:

I have been prodded. I would have preferred to wait longer, because all the reads I would have had have already been had, but let me give a few anyway:

Satsuma: Same old same old, either newbtown or scum. For what it's worth, I'm leaning a slight bit towards scum, but that's just a gut feeling, and those have been wrong in the past.

athena: Some of his arguments and posts seem a little confused and inconsistent. I'm not entirely convinced he's town.

kirsche: Something about kirsche is bothering me, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Call it another gut feeling. I guess because I didn't find his content to be all that compelling for the amount of words he used for it.

Refa: YO REFA-SAN. Pretty good so far. Reading town, but slightly detached, which makes me question my read. Could just be D1 malaise. Agreed with most of his reads, for what that's worth. Not that there's that much to go on, but.

eclipse: Good ol' eclipse. Seems pretty proactive and town-ish to me, but only time will tell.

Shinori: A little off, but nothing to write home about.

Walrein: Agreeing with eclipse, seems pretty town.

Fable: I'm not unwilling to take him for his word. Pretty null on him, but it does make u think.

Elie: His vote seemed more like a pressure/meme vote than anything, but we'll have to see once he's back. I'd like to hear his thoughts so far.

Junko: Honestly getting confused readings on him, which probably isn't a good sign.

Eurykins: This is the first time I'm seeing the legendary Eurykins wall post. Bravo.

Null: on everyone else.

 

On 4/12/2018 at 5:49 PM, Nightmare said:

You seem a little over-eager to push the Bartozio lynch, Snike. I know we'll need a lynch by the end of the day, but it's making me a bit uneasy.

These were the posts that made me dislike the slot. I don't understand why he posted the first quote, and there are a lot of backdoors in his language that a lot of wolves make.

The second quote just doesn't make any sense.

[Alette]

On 4/10/2018 at 12:33 PM, Bartozio said:

See Refa, the answer to this fairly obvious.... oh...

Basicly this, yeah. New players tend to have difficulty coming up with reads, which is fine. However, they can then at least say stuff like I don't really find anyone suspisious, or be asked for their opinion on things. SoySoy on the other hand is basicly saying he shouldn't give opinions on anything because his reasoning will be different from most of ours, which is ???

It feels more like he's avoiding giving reads, instead of just not having them.

Bart, some new players can be very good at reads so I kind of dislike this post because it makes seem like all new players have no idea what they are doing. 

[Alette]

Oh man,  I just realized y'all lynched Bart. 

[Fable]

Derp clear under review. 

[Iris]

Day 2.Basically 24 hours left
Omega (4): Walrein, eclipse, Makaze
RADicate (3): Omega., Refa, athena_57
athena_57 (2): Shinori, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy
Jaybee (2): BBM, Via
Zkirsche (2): RADicate, Mackc2
Lord Gaius (1): Weapons
Mackc2 (1): Jaybee
Shinori (1): Zkirsche

Not Voting: Alette, Kaoz, Lord Gaius, Fable, SullyMcGully

You have ~24.5 hours left in the day.  With 20 alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 14 to hammer.

[BBM]

i disagree with the point that I'm picking against weaker play as opposed to scum play. i'm pretty sure that with all my cases after RVS i've been pointing out scum intent. this is particularly frustrating to me bc this is basically what I've seen the cases against zeus and satsuma and athena as being and I've been defending against those on d1/d2.

@Refa i don't understand what you mean wrt me not explaining things about bartozio. when i first made that comment it was kind of a gutvibe and then I followed it up and was voting him later on in the day. i dropped bibbon because her frustration in her response to me felt genuine. i generally find that how people react to pressure is more important than what they did to garner that pressure. and like, as I made the large post after that responding to her, even as I was typing it out I was losing confidence in that read.

to be perfectly honest this is also what's happening with jb's response to my read. but i don't know who else to vote. kirsche/junko/weapons and the pile of inactives/people who subbed in for them are next. junko said he didn't have time to make a lot of cases and that's why he was tunneling/parking. considering junko subbed out I think that this is believable. for me to vote junko/radicate right now would basically mean me believing that he was straight up lying about that. not that he couldn't have been scum who was also busy but I didn't have any other big problems with his play.

@Zkirsche i have no idea what you mean by me being ok to lynch you through PoE being bad especially for me. i'm pretty sure i use PoE more than anyone else on SF. i guess i haven't had a single post going through every read and summarizing it. i can do that i guess.

lynching a macho martyr claim this early is bad play. if they're town they'll probably get themselves killed soon. so if they don't die we'll know in a few day phases that they're scum. not down to lynch the nightmare/mack slot.

[ZoesMad]

Going to kill myself this got eaten when i was on page 32. I'm doing this much more quickly than I was previously so don't hesitate to ask for clarification on any reads/ comments I have, mostly am just going through game thread blind with my reads at end of post. I want people to know i'm not trying to brush this game off, here's what I have atm.

Gaius notes:

page 2-3: I think walrein's setup spec is fine opposed to typical RVS bs, it's all filler content in the end until something happens. Via / walrein interactions strongly suggest to me they are not scum / scum, I don't think buddies would be this conversational early. Via Role / Eclipse role are NAI. 

page 4-5: I think a lot of people are reading scum! Athena tonally as opposed to anything he's really said or done, wrt stuff like how he overexplained himself. Zeus bothers me much more with a halfassed meta post and nothing else of note even though there's definitely a bit more we can chew on at this phase. Gonna assume zkirsche is kirsche until someone corrects me. Agree with his assessment of BBM's play, don't understand how Refa finds his analysis scummy. Refa's been doing the thing where he asks a lot of questions and I scumread him for it, but I haven't really given him a chance to do something with his info and he's town half the time I do this so gonna hold off on that. Bibbon and Zeus have had the most egrigious posts so far, but I've never played with either of them and have no idea what they do ED1. 

page 6: Bartozio has a good distinction on Satsuma's slot wrt avoiding giving reads vs not having them, would sheep / 10. Shinori says some things I agree w/ minus Athena, that slot hasn't done much scummy from what i've seen. Satsuma goes straight into some OMGUS as soon as called out by bartozio and athena, I'm starting to get something more concrete here. misreading role PMs happens not going to let it affect my reads. 

page 7: Weapons seems to be playing in line with his town meta, will probably need to wait to see some more interactions before I have a better read than gut on him, he's right about satsuma and zeus in any case. 

Eclipse: "There's several types of tells in a game.  Some are hard tells, like someone spilling information that they shouldn't know (say, a claimed BP posting someone else's role).  Others are soft tells, things that are subconsciously done as we play the game.  Your recent posts are responses to people - in other words, passive play.  Yet you're being awfully pushy with your lone read.  This kind of disconnect is a soft tell - in this case, a scum tell." 

When someone is under fire they have to defend themselves? This doesn't sit right with me, why are we playing if not to push our scumreads and convince other people we're town? You threw a bunch of buzz words into a paragraph that don't really make sense together. 
 

[ZoesMad]

i'm gonna do this in bits so I don't lose any more work, if anyone has specific interactions they want me to interpret quote them and i'll do so

[BBM]

meh ##Unvote

i read jb's last post with the spoilered cases and i'm not feeling him as my least townie read anymore. i still think that mack is a bad lynch but i think he makes some good points against nightmare and the weapons case is good i think.

it kind of sucks that there were like 30-50 pages for all the subs to come in and read because i don't think most of them read them. so it's hard to know how much to read their posts for.

i reread refa's junko case so i guess i'll reread junko again. i also forgot to reread eclipse so i'll do that too and then come up with a reads post and then i'm probably out for today. pretty demotivated to play mafia right now.

[BBM]

@Lord Gaius honestly i expect you'll update your reads as you go through the game so I at least would rather you type out all your notes and consolidate and post them at the end per person. like for example you're starting to feel concrete stuff about satsuma, but snike is about to sub in for the other half of his hydra and be supertown.

[ZoesMad]

2 minutes ago, BBM said:

@Lord Gaius honestly i expect you'll update your reads as you go through the game so I at least would rather you type out all your notes and consolidate and post them at the end per person. like for example you're starting to feel concrete stuff about satsuma, but snike is about to sub in for the other half of his hydra and be supertown.

when I saw the votals above me a lot of players weren't even in game from when I started reading :weary:

yeah i'll be updating them as I go, so you'll get to see my progresions if I was in the game from D1 (that's the hope at least)

 

[BBM]

ok confidence back not really

##Vote: Weapons

on D1 after the initial shenanigans I thought his posts were okay bc I could see a clear thought process but he never actually really pushed anyone very much as scum. the bulk of his suspicions on D1 were against bartozio and athena. the bartozio stuff wasn't even really based on his content so much as how he claimed and then him leaving the thread for a while. this is his case:

-I still want Bart to at least reply cause I do think him dropping his role in and then disappearing when people started scumreading him for it is scummy. Then again, the fact that he made that post standalone is more town, so idk. @Refa, I thought it was weird he checked his role pm randomly after phase start because I didn't do that and didn't see any reason to, but upon review that's probably cause I'm biased cause my role is pretty easy to understand and so it's not a great reason.

this is really waffly first off. i think the athena stuff is stronger than this but he sticks to this most of the day without really adding much to it. he votes athena later to consolidate but says even as he's doing it that he finds bartozio still scummier. later again he revotes bartozio when that picks up again but even as he votes him he's distancing himself from it:

I'll probably be up in time for phase end, but I'll switch to Bartozio for now cause gut says athena wouldn't wifom the self-meta question like that. @Eurykins, I went more off the thread vibe than the votals, where a number of people were scumreading athena and no one was really talking about Bartozio. I don't really feel particularly strongly about a Bart lynch either, so I'm not pushing it that much, and I'm also not feeling the effort right now. I'm ever so slightly annoyed that you say it's distracting though, cause saying that sort of thing gets townies to be more self-conscious about their posts, which makes them act scummier, which is also distracting.

##Unvote

##Vote: Bartozio

i think it's okay to not be 100% about a vote you're consolidating on but this has been his main read all game and he doesn't really that strongly about it? it's like he's basically never felt strongly about anything all game.

He's kind of had a similar approach to D2 as me where his vote has been a bit of a park but he's been rereading other people meanwhile and posting thoughts about them. those posts are mostly okay but when you look at his content as a whole it doesn't seem like he's really been trying so much to push the stuff from his rereads. like for example there's this:

Ok I read kirsche's ISO and came out with a slight scumread. Junko's ISO also makes more sense after having read both.

The main thing with kirsche is that while most of his logic/actions are fine, they are townreads or callouts or stuff that isn't really alignment indicative, and I disagree with the core arguments behind his main D1 votes (BBM and Junko).

For BBM, kirsche said that his gut was that BBM was asking questions for the sake of it, but I distinctly did not get that feeling. For Junko, kirsche agreed with Marth's case where Junko was wishy-washy, but I also find that case to be a stretch, and the rest of his reasoning just seems rather dismissive of Junko's posts, like he was sticking to his read just to stick to his read.

I think his most valid point is that Junko was voting him throughout most of D1 for a relatively minor reason, so it may just be town OMGUS, but overall I think kirsche looks worse between the two of them. I can vote here, but I've only read three players in-depth and want to see if there's clearer stuff out there.

i think the points he makes her are mostly fine but... why doesn't he actually vote kirsche here if he comes out with a minor scumread? so what if there's clearer stuff out there, he can change his vote later if he wants. his vote has been on fable this whole time, which is basically just a prodvote to post content. he also doesn't really ask kirsche any questions or anything like that. that makes it feels like he's producing the content for the sake of it as opposed to producing it to actually figure out who's scum.

tl dr; a lot of vote parking without pushing anyone as scum. i think it's okay to go through those stretches where you're not confident about who's scum but weapons has basically never pushed anyone strongly at any point in the game. I think up to now I've been giving way too much of a pass to him because he sounds kind of like how I feel and I can sympathize with him not really being able to get a lot of scumreads. but it doesn't feel like his attempts to find scumreads are genuine because he doesn't really pressure them strongly.

[BBM]

the tl dr got put in the spoiler for some reason:

tl dr: a lot of vote parking without pushing anyone as scum. i think it's okay to go through those stretches where you're not confident about who's scum but weapons has basically never pushed anyone strongly at any point in the game. I think up to now I've been giving way too much of a pass to him because he sounds kind of like how I feel and I can sympathize with him not really being able to get a lot of scumreads. but it doesn't feel like his attempts to find scumreads are genuine because he doesn't really pressure them strongly.

[BBM]

i think i'll put junko above kirsche in the order to lynch, because he has far fewer posts and it's easier to fake content with a smaller amount of posts, and because i agree with parts of refa's case upon rereading junko. i agree that junko's kirsche read focuses on just a small amount of kirsche's content, and I agree with refa's defence on himself.

but I don't really agree with the athena bit. my understanding of junko's point is (paraphrased) "if you're still unsatisfied with a slot, how can you be okay with unvoting?" i disagree with junko on this bc I think there are times where you've just kind of reached an impasse and you don't see the point of continuing. but i don't think it's a misrep on junko's part. it's also unfair to criticize junko for not responding to refa's defence when junko never posted after refa's defence so it's not like he was ignoring it.

 

[Refa]

Just now, BBM said:

but I don't really agree with the athena bit. my understanding of junko's point is (paraphrased) "if you're still unsatisfied with a slot, how can you be okay with unvoting?" i disagree with junko on this bc I think there are times where you've just kind of reached an impasse and you don't see the point of continuing. but i don't think it's a misrep on junko's part. it's also unfair to criticize junko for not responding to refa's defence when junko never posted after refa's defence so it's not like he was ignoring it.

Wait, I don't think his Athena read was a misrep.  It's just before I thought it was sheepable and now it's an additional vote on someone who I think is town, which isn't going to make him look better to me lol.  Him not responding to my defense is more me being frustrated because I feel like a response would help me see if I'm just being biased or his case on me was scummy.

[Refa]

Oh, do you mean his earlier Athena vote?  I mean, it could be made in good faith but I don't really get how Junko sees Scum!Athena benefiting from dropping his vote, not moving his vote at all, and then putting his vote on Satsuma again.

[Refa]

I'll respond to your responses later BBM/Shinori, need to finish something that I've been procrastinating on lol.

[BBM]

3 hours ago, Refa said:

Don't like how Junk doesn't update his read on ZKirsche here.  He mentions that Eclipse slightly bothers him but like...it seems to be based more on disagreements than actually findint Eclipse scummy.  Feels like Junk misreps Athena's reason for unvoting Satsuma here.  He said he couldn't get anything else out of the vote even though he was still unsatisfied with the slot, which is fine to me.  Also don't like how his defense to tunneling ZKirsche is "Eclipse slightly bothered me!".  Also he still didn't update his vote on Kirsche!  I feel like most of Junk's thoughts are reactionary or just other peoples' thoughts.  This post bothers me on gut.  He dismisses ZKirsche's later content as null and mentions that Page 18 just reaffirms his reads, even though ZKirsche's later content should be far more telling to his alignment.  I already commented on his wallpost here but tl,dr; his read on me is a mess where he's ascribing scum intent to actions where there aren't any.  He's still harping on Kirsche for his ED1 content and not updating his read significantly (yes, he touches on Kirsche's vote on Bartozio but nothing else).  To me, this reads as him throwing a bunch of individual reads on players but not trying to understand these reads in the greater context.

man you guys suck you made me think "bbm level reading skills" at myself before i went back and confirmed that i did not misread

regardless if you misspoke there originally and what you meant was that you don't agree with the case anymore- i don't really think it's fair to scumread him for having a read different than yours unless you think that there's scum intent behind the vote.

oh yeah @RADicate i don't think it makes much sense for you to focus on peoples cases on Junko. there isn't really anything you can do to explain his thinking. mostly just looking for content from you regarding who is scum, and reads on the leading wagons

what do you think of my woopons case refa?

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, BBM said:

regardless if you misspoke there originally and what you meant was that you don't agree with the case anymore- i don't really think it's fair to scumread him for having a read different than yours unless you think that there's scum intent behind the vote.

oh yeah @RADicate i don't think it makes much sense for you to focus on peoples cases on Junko. there isn't really anything you can do to explain his thinking. mostly just looking for content from you regarding who is scum, and reads on the leading wagons

what do you think of my woopons case refa?

I think him saying Athena is scummy for something that's null is bad, though.

I think it's okay  I agree that he didn't really push for his main scumread Bartozio hard, and it doesn't feel like he's pushing for ANYONE hard.  I was reading this as Weapons being demotivated but you're right in that it makes more sense as demotivated scum.  I'd expect him as town to like not just throw votes out there if he's having a hard time getting decent reads.  I feel like you didn't really analyze some of his best posts though, like I remember him making a few big reads posts where I was like "this is pretty okay reads wise" which I feel like you should if you're saying that he hasn't pushed anybody hard.  Also harder to find but there were a few posts where he was discussing his thought process and how it was hard to read people and I thought that seemed genuine?  It wasn't enough to townread him but it made me doubt his scumminess.

[BBM]

i know i didn't directly analyze a lot of his good posts but a lot of his good posts are really just "here are reasons for why all these people are town", with some sprinkles of athena suspicion thrown in on d1. they look good individually because the reasons behind those opinions are good, but then you put everything together and realize that that's really all his play is. i don't actually think he looks like demotivated scum so much as scum who just can't fabricate reads and is voteparking.

[Refa]

4 minutes ago, BBM said:

i know i didn't directly analyze a lot of his good posts but a lot of his good posts are really just "here are reasons for why all these people are town", with some sprinkles of athena suspicion thrown in on d1. they look good individually because the reasons behind those opinions are good, but then you put everything together and realize that that's really all his play is. i don't actually think he looks like demotivated scum so much as scum who just can't fabricate reads and is voteparking.

Yeah, I just wanted some acknowledgement even if you didn't think they were townie.  That's definitely fair, though.  Also yeah, I probably got the words wrong but I can get what you're saying.  I'd probably be okay w/voting Weapons.