Best and worse skills in the games ?

[FootwaySublong]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Would you seriously try to argue Astra as being better than Awakening Galeforce??? I sure hope not. I highly doubt it would be better than Luna, either.

Except, as stated earlier, it's a level 15 skill, which means it won't be much, if any, help, since it woun't be obtained until very late in the game, if at all.

Except those are all terrible weapons. Mentioning the Awful Club was a very easy way to shoot yourself in the foot. (45 base accuracy??? No thank you.)

I'm comparing Astra to other Fates skills. If we had everything, Galeforce, Nihil, Vantage in FE4 and 9, and Wrath would all be in the argument.

This is Astra vs Fates Galeforce then, where it doesn't proc if you had pair up or had someone adjacent with you.

[DisobeyedCargo]

20 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Would you seriously try to argue Astra as being better than Awakening Galeforce??? I sure hope not. I highly doubt it would be better than Luna, either.

Except, as stated earlier, it's a level 15 skill, which means it won't be much, if any, help, since it woun't be obtained until very late in the game, if at all.

Except those are all terrible weapons. Mentioning the Awful Club was a very easy way to shoot yourself in the foot. (45 base accuracy??? No thank you.)

alright well great club notwithstanding (which I acknowledge has a low base hit) then what makes a killing edge so horrible?

It has only 3 less might, and only 5 less avoid than a steel sword. That sounds like a small sacrifice for such high crit. Silver weapons don't seem very good due to he constant debuffs they'd apply, and brace weapons give a huge hit to def/Res 

with such a high crit rate and an innate crit bonus from swordmaster or berserker or whatever and 5 back to back hits, even generals will have a hard time surviving. 

And that's why I said it would be useful in castle battles, where presumable everyone's stats are capped or near capped and if I recall both sides have ~ten units(I think). Having an extra unit that's just as powerful as your other units opens many tactical advantages.  

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Um, sorry, but I do not see the correlation between activation chance and how good a skill is. I consider it worse than Luna, which has a better activation rate. If the correlation was there, you'd have to believe Lethality was good because it had a low activation rate. And for your information, making space for more units to attack you is a VERY BAD THING when you're working with units as frail as Hoshidans. Not to mention since we're talking about Swordmasters, they could just as easily crit, leaving you with a not full shield gauge instead.

It's called balance. Skills that have better effects have lower proc rates so they're comparable to skills that have worse effects, but higher proc rates.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, FootwaySublong said:

I'm comparing Astra to other Fates skills. If we had everything, Galeforce, Nihil, Vantage in FE4 and 9, and Wrath would all be in the argument.

This is Astra vs Fates Galeforce then, where it doesn't proc if you had pair up or had someone adjacent with you.

Okay, fine then. I still think Astra falls well short of being the best skill in Fates; it compares unfavorably to the likes of Shelter, Seal skills in general (except Seal Resistance), Renewal, Elbow Room, Quick Draw, Strong Riposte, etc.

39 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's called balance. Skills that have better effects have lower proc rates so they're comparable to skills that have worse effects, but higher proc rates.

And yet, Lethality gets written off as one of the worst proc skills... have you ever thought as to why? In fact, I might as well repeat myself - it's just too unreliable; with all the setup it would take to get Lethality to a respectable activation rate, I could get Vengeance to close to, if not 100% activation chance, Luna would be going off over half the time, and I would also have a really high crit chance with the right weapons. And the one instance where it might be worth considering (Apotheosis) is the one stage where everything is immune, too.

50 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

alright well great club notwithstanding (which I acknowledge has a low base hit) then what makes a killing edge so horrible?

It has only 3 less might, and only 5 less avoid than a steel sword. That sounds like a small sacrifice for such high crit. Silver weapons don't seem very good due to he constant debuffs they'd apply, and brace weapons give a huge hit to def/Res 

with such a high crit rate and an innate crit bonus from swordmaster or berserker or whatever and 5 back to back hits, even generals will have a hard time surviving. 

3 less might (4 in the case of the bow and axe) is enough for me to think "losing trade". Needless to say, non-crit attacks are far more likely than critical hits. Also, killer weapons come with a -10 to avoid.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Okay, fine then. I still think Astra falls well short of being the best skill in Fates; it compares unfavorably to the likes of Shelter, Seal skills in general (except Seal Resistance), Renewal, Elbow Room, Quick Draw, Strong Riposte, etc.

And yet, Lethality gets written off as one of the worst proc skills... have you ever thought as to why? In fact, I might as well repeat myself - it's just too unreliable; with all the setup it would take to get Lethality to a respectable activation rate, I could get Vengeance to close to, if not 100% activation chance, Luna would be going off over half the time, and I would also have a really high crit chance with the right weapons. And the one instance where it might be worth considering (Apotheosis) is the one stage where everything is immune, too.

3 less might (4 in the case of the bow and axe) is enough for me to think "losing trade". Needless to say, non-crit attacks are far more likely than critical hits.

Who's claiming Lethality is a good skill? We're talking about Astra.

[Shadow Mir]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Who's claiming Lethality is a good skill? We're talking about Astra.

With logic like this...

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It's called balance. Skills that have better effects have lower proc rates so they're comparable to skills that have worse effects, but higher proc rates.

Maybe you. And I don't see Astra as a "better skill" when the defensive implications you hype up as being so amazing are offset by its unreliability. And when Luna exists.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

With logic like this...

Maybe you. And I don't see Astra as a "better skill" when the defensive implications you hype up as being so amazing are offset by its unreliability. And when Luna, exists.

I never claimed Astra was superior to Luna, though. Just because I think one is good, doesn't mean the other is immediately bad. Two skills being decent isn't mutually exclusive.

[deskita]

Due to Astra's damage being halved and then being in 5 hits it can cause death by Counter that would've been avoided if no skill activated, but that's rather unlikely and you'd have to fail to account for Astra for that to be a problem. 

Rend Heaven is in my opinion generally good as it has an above average activation rate and while it does use the enemy's stat that's only a problem if fighting a mage with a physical unit or vice-versa however mages tend to have low defence and physical units tend to have lower res therefore it usually doesn't end up as a problem.

I'd definitely say that Replicate works wonders for back-liners that don't tend to engage in combat as it practically means an extra deployment slot as there's an extra healer or rallyer or even ballistician if you're feeling crazy. However while I don't think Mechanist is too bad of a class the fact it comes at level 15 is a pity.

Golembane is in my opinion one of the worst skills as there are simply no targets for it meaning that it does nothing but take up a skill slot.

Bonus EXP skills like Veteran and Nobility are all round good skills as they help the characters gain their stats and gain more skills as well, simple yet effective. Future Sight is not as good as it doesn't come as early nor does it give as much as it only has a luck% chance of activating.

[Shadow Mir]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

I never claimed Astra was superior to Luna, though. Just because I think one is good, doesn't mean the other is immediately bad. Two skills being decent isn't mutually exclusive.

The issue is, a situation where both Astra and Luna are good is nigh nonexistent. Also, Astra can screw you when you run into Counter - multiple weak hits aren't exactly desirable when you take whatever damage you inflict...

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The issue is, a situation where both Astra and Luna are good is nigh nonexistent.

Don't know what you mean by this. Are you saying that equipping them both is a bad idea? I'd agree, it's generally not an optimal set up, but at least it gives you the chances of one activating if the other doesn't. Still, it requires so much set up, especially in Fates, I'm not sure why it's even a suggestion for anyone that's not Rightful King Marth.

ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Also, Astra can screw you when you run into Counter - multiple weak hits aren't exactly desirable when you take whatever damage you inflict...

True, but that doesn't exactly make it a bad skill. Luna can screw you over in the same way if you're not killing your enemy, sure it might not screw you as painfully as Astra might if you just so happen to have to die on the fifth hit, but it doesn't stop Astra being worth equipping. What exactly are you arguing? That Astra is amongst the worst skills in the game? Or that Luna is merely better? Because all I'm saying is that Astra is decent. Not the best skill in any game it's in (except maybe Genealogy of the Holy War if you don't count pursuit, but even then it's highly needed by only being available to foot units).

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The issue is, a situation where both Astra and Luna are good is nigh nonexistent. Also, Astra can screw you when you run into Counter - multiple weak hits aren't exactly desirable when you take whatever damage you inflict...

[FootwaySublong]

2 hours ago, deskita said:

Due to Astra's damage being halved and then being in 5 hits it can cause death by Counter that would've been avoided if no skill activated, but that's rather unlikely and you'd have to fail to account for Astra for that to be a problem. 

 

But, counter is a very hard to get skill, being learned by Oni Chieftains (a pretty bad class), and you also have to A Rank Rinkah, who kinda sucks.

Even while not in Castle Battles, Counter is on like 4 units and it can be negated by just attacking from range

[Shadow Mir]

11 minutes ago, FootwaySublong said:

But, counter is a very hard to get skill, being learned by Oni Chieftains (a pretty bad class), and you also have to A Rank Rinkah, who kinda sucks.

Even while not in Castle Battles, Counter is on like 4 units and it can be negated by just attacking from range

I would imagine that was more meant in the context of Awakening, where Counter is a serious threat and is active on both phases.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[FootwaySublong]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I would imagine that was more meant in the context of Awakening, where Counter is a serious threat.

Oh, in this debate of sorts, i was referring to Astra in Fates.

[deskita]

In terms of Astra causing a counter kill a did mention that it is rather unlikely. The reason I brought it up is that it ended up killing me when I was fighting Hans in Conquest, I was not pleased. Though I do doubt that the numbers would line up for it to cause a counter kill often.

 

[DragonFlames]

On 8.5.2018 at 10:51 PM, deskita said:

In terms of Astra causing a counter kill a did mention that it is rather unlikely. The reason I brought it up is that it ended up killing me when I was fighting Hans in Conquest, I was not pleased. Though I do doubt that the numbers would line up for it to cause a counter kill often.

 

If Astra activates against something that has Counter, you're screwed. I learned that the hard way back in Awakening.

In Fates, Astra is at its best when you put in on someone who has a bow, I found. It can help Takumi mask his sluggish Speed and Mozu will turn from a reliable chipper to a killing machine (though on her, Luna or Rend Heaven can do the job just as well, if not better due to higher activation rates). You're also not susceptible to Counter, in case that ever comes up (I know it's rare, but when it does come up, you'll be thankful you didn't go into close combat).

I would agree on the skill itself being rather mediocre, though.

Speaking of, Luna is probably one of the better proc skills in Fates. Too bad it's on a class that sucks major balls.