Camus vs. Quan

[Vajra]

I'm not sure if there was ever any discussion on this nor if this is considered a fair fight. Curious to know your thoughts on the subject.

Camus - leader of Grust's Sable Order vs. Quan - leader of Leonster's Lanzenritter.

Both are mounted units wielding legendary weapons, lead a cavalry brigade of their respective countries, and are defined by their black and gold color schemes. Which of the two would emerge victorious if they are to engage each other in a one-on-one encounter?

Edited April 14, 2018 by Zhu Qiao

[omegaxis1]

Camus, no questions asked. Camus wiped out an ENTIRE battalion that numbered up to over 200 and a Fire Dragon manakete.

[indigoasis]

It's a tough decision, but I chose Quan. As a unit, I would consider him superior to Camus, simply due to the fact that he has Holy Blood and a superior legendary weapon. It's not really a fair comparison seeing as how the Archanaen and Valentia games and FE4 are structured differently when it comes to how stats and units work, but meh. Based off of merits, I would choose Camus.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, AlmondJuice said:

It's a tough decision, but I chose Quan. As a unit, I would consider him superior to Camus, simply due to the fact that he has Holy Blood and a superior legendary weapon. It's not really a fair comparison seeing as how the Archanaen and Valentia games and FE4 are structured differently when it comes to how stats and units work, but meh. Based off of merits, I would choose Camus.

You should really consider how Camus has actual individual feats that makes him such a badass.

I have an entire reddit thread made about how strong Camus is. In fact, I argue he's just as strong as Greil in his prime as Gawain, and Endgame Ike. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/84f5yr/fire_emblem_power_level_analysis_camus/

[indigoasis]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I argue he's just as strong as Greil in his prime as Gawain, and Endgame Ike.

I read through a bit of the reddit page you linked, and I gotta hand it to you. But give Camus some credit, he's gotta be stronger than Gawain and Ike. He has the weapon triangle advantage after all (Not against Greil when Camus has a lance equipped, but Camus can use swords, so it checks out).

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, AlmondJuice said:

I read through a bit of the reddit page you linked, and I gotta hand it to you. But give Camus some credit, he's gotta be stronger than Gawain and Ike. He has the weapon triangle advantage after all (Not against Greil when Camus has a lance equipped, but Camus can use swords, so it checks out).

Lol XD Weapon Triangle, right. But is that enough to convince you to change your vote to Camus? 

I also have several more power level threads, talking about Marth, Ike/Greil/Zelgius, Gharnef, and then Ryoma vs Xander.

[X-Naut]

While Quan has sheer power and defense on his side, Camus has a range advantage and Gae Bolg leaves Quan slow enough that Camus has no trouble doubling and hitting him at range. He has to be careful about Adept however, if that pops off he's toast.

[Re: The weirdo.]

fe4 is kinda neat so gonna go (SHOULD be spelt Cuan) Quan. 

[indigoasis]

40 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Lol XD Weapon Triangle, right. But is that enough to convince you to change your vote to Camus? 

I also have several more power level threads, talking about Marth, Ike/Greil/Zelgius, Gharnef, and then Ryoma vs Xander.

I won't change my vote, but I respect your opinion. I'm a bit biased towards Quan, mainly because he's Leif's father, and Leif is great.

Also, looking at your reddit posts, they're very well structured, so I tip my metaphorical hat to you good sir.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, AlmondJuice said:

I won't change my vote, but I respect your opinion. I'm a bit biased towards Quan, mainly because he's Leif's father, and Leif is great.

Also, looking at your reddit posts, they're very well structured, so I tip my metaphorical hat to you good sir.

Darn. Oh well, in the end this is all subjective to our personal preferences. And Quan does have the case of having the Holy Weapon to be a nuke in a game that caters to the Crusaders. So I can't argue if some thing he would win. 

Thank you. I try my best.

[Slumber]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Darn. Oh well, in the end this is all subjective to our personal preferences. And Quan does have the case of having the Holy Weapon to be a nuke in a game that caters to the Crusaders. So I can't argue if some thing he would win. 

Thank you. I try my best.

It's tough. All we really get out of people with Holy Blood is that they're basically as strong as armies all on their own, but nothing specific like Camus taking down 200 men and a manakete.

One would assume Quan, given what we get out of some other Holy Bloods, would also be capable of such a thing, but there aren't any hard numbers to confirm it. 

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

It's tough. All we really get out of people with Holy Blood is that they're basically as strong as armies all on their own, but nothing specific like Camus taking down 200 men and a manakete.

One would assume Quan, given what we get out of some other Holy Bloods, would also be capable of such a thing, but there aren't any hard numbers to confirm it. 

Yeah, in the end, we are stuck with very little information. Though I'll say Camus has the bigger edge since he beats an actual dragon and is praised by Medeus, an Earth Dragon, while Loptyr thinks everyone apart from Julia and Naga to be just garbage. 

[indigoasis]

12 minutes ago, Slumber said:

It's tough. All we really get out of people with Holy Blood is that they're basically as strong as armies all on their own, but nothing specific like Camus taking down 200 men and a manakete.

One would assume Quan, given what we get out of some other Holy Bloods, would also be capable of such a thing, but there aren't any hard numbers to confirm it. 

What's ironic is that, as powerful as Quan (supposedly) is, he's bested by the Thracian Army despite having the Gae Bolg with him. Granted he's in the desert and there's the curse of the Gae Bolg, too.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, AlmondJuice said:

What's ironic is that, as powerful as Quan (supposedly) is, he's bested by the Thracian Army despite having the Gae Bolg with him. Granted he's in the desert and there's the curse of the Gae Bolg, too.

The most canonical reason he lost is actually due to how Ethlyn died and Altena was a hostage, so he surrendered the Gae Bolg.

[indigoasis]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

The most canonical reason he lost is actually due to how Ethlyn died and Altena was a hostage, so he surrendered the Gae Bolg.

I forgot about that, thank you. It's possible for Quan to die first, too, although unlikely. 

[MCProductions]

Quan: HP: 80 Str: 27    Mag: 15    Skl:22    Spd:22     Luck:30    Def:23    Res: 18
Holy Weapon boosts: Str+ 10, Skl +10, Def + 10

Camus: HP: 60    Str:25    Mag:21    Skl:28    Spd:25     Luck:25    Def/30      Res/25

This is both of their absolute maximum stats, Camus' feats may be more notable, but Quan has the benefit of a FE4 Holy weapon which is superior to Gradivus even without 1-2. Quan's doing 37 damage per hit, one Adept proc and Camus is dead.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, AlmondJuice said:

I forgot about that, thank you. It's possible for Quan to die first, too, although unlikely. 

It is possible, but given his lance, it's just more unlikely. But really, even if Ethlyn wasn't with them with Altena, Quan wasn't gonna survive. Even if he was able to defeat the other Thracian knights, he would be much more exhausted, and Travant had Gungnir, so Quan was at the disadvantage.

1 minute ago, MCProductions said:

Quan: HP: 80 Str: 27    Mag: 15    Skl:22    Spd:22     Luck:30    Def:23    Res: 18
Holy Weapon boosts: Str+ 10, Skl +10, Def + 10

Camus: HP: 60    Str:25    Mag:21    Skl:28    Spd:25     Luck:25    Def/30      Res/25

This is both of their absolute maximum stats, Camus' feats may be more notable, but Quan has the benefit of a FE4 Holy weapon which is superior to Gradivus even without 1-2. Quan's doing 37 damage per hit, one Adept proc and Camus is dead.

You're really comparing the wrong things here. Game stats really cannot be compared given that they are functioned differently. Obviously Genealogy caters to the Crusader Weapons.

[Ertrick36]

12 minutes ago, MCProductions said:

Quan: HP: 80 Str: 27    Mag: 15    Skl:22    Spd:22     Luck:30    Def:23    Res: 18
Holy Weapon boosts: Str+ 10, Skl +10, Def + 10

Camus: HP: 60    Str:25    Mag:21    Skl:28    Spd:25     Luck:25    Def/30      Res/25

This is both of their absolute maximum stats, Camus' feats may be more notable, but Quan has the benefit of a FE4 Holy weapon which is superior to Gradivus even without 1-2. Quan's doing 37 damage per hit, one Adept proc and Camus is dead.

I'd more compare their stats to the stats of their respective enemies.  It's like if you said Kellam as a General is faster than Marth because the former's max speed is 35 while the latter's max speed in his own game is 25.  And even if you compared their stats to other units, you still don't have a direct and fair comparison stat-wise because neither character appears in one-another's games except for in Awakening, and that game really can't count because anyone can become any class and thus have any set of maximum stats, and they also don't have certain factors (e.g. Quan's holy blood and holy weapon bonus) considered in that game.

So really, the best way to decide would be the lore.  There's no real proof of Quan's strength outside of the simple fact that he's of holy lineage and that he helped a friend essentially conquer two entire nations' armies...

Spoiler

and that he was felled by someone with equally as prominent holy lineage as himself, though I honestly don't think that could really be attributed to a failure in his own strength.

While Camus of course has all the stories in the world about his own triumphs.  Does that make Camus stronger?  Perhaps, as the true root of strength is found in the pits of turmoil and hardship rather than comfort and inheritance.  At the same time though, Quan and everyone else that has holy blood is essentially infused with the power of ancient dragons, while Camus is simply an ordinary, red-blooded human knight.  So the question boils down to this; can all the years of war and conquest in the world compare to the might of draconic blessings and power inherited from heroes who conquered an army of dragons?  I'm not so sure...

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Ertrick36 said:

I'd more compare their stats to the stats of their respective enemies.  It's like if you said Kellam as a General is faster than Marth because the former's max speed is 35 while the latter's max speed in his own game is 25.  And even if you compared their stats to other units, you still don't have a direct and fair comparison stat-wise because neither character appears in one-another's games except for in Awakening, and that game really can't count because anyone can become any class and thus have any set of maximum stats, and they also don't have certain factors (e.g. Quan's holy blood and holy weapon bonus) considered in that game.

So really, the best way to decide would be the lore.  There's no real proof of Quan's strength outside of the simple fact that he's of holy lineage and that he helped a friend essentially conquer two entire nations' armies...

  Hide contents

and that he was felled by someone with equally as prominent holy lineage as himself, though I honestly don't think that could really be attributed to a failure in his own strength.

While Camus of course has all the stories in the world about his own triumphs.  Does that make Camus stronger?  Perhaps, as the true root of strength is found in the pits of turmoil and hardship rather than comfort and inheritance.  At the same time though, Quan and everyone else that has holy blood is essentially infused with the power of ancient dragons, while Camus is simply an ordinary, red-blooded human knight.  So the question boils down to this; can all the years of war and conquest in the world compare to the might of draconic blessings and power inherited from heroes who conquered an army of dragons?  I'm not so sure...

Given that with the legendary lance Gradivus, Camus took down a battalion and a Fire Dragon singlehandedly, the odds are more towards him than Quan in that regard. And Gradivus has unknown origins. Does it empower the user as well like the Holy Weapons? Is it possibly draconic in origin? No idea. 

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, in the end, we are stuck with very little information. Though I'll say Camus has the bigger edge since he beats an actual dragon and is praised by Medeus, an Earth Dragon, while Loptyr thinks everyone apart from Julia and Naga to be just garbage. 

I'd argue Medeus' praise is because he hated humanity a bit less than Loptyr. 

Granted, Medeus still hated them, but he at least tried to cooperate with them and the other dragons to some degree. Actions after this made Medeus hate humanity, while Loptyr ALWAYS saw humanity as beneath him. 

Praise from Medeus towards a human is going to come easier than praise from Loptyr, which is ironic, since Loptyr probably spends more time "among" humans and has to rely on them to subsist. 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Slumber said:

I'd argue Medeus' praise is because he hated humanity a bit less than Loptyr. 

Granted, Medeus still hated them, but he at least tried to cooperate with them and the other dragons to some degree. Actions after this made Medeus hate humanity, while Loptyr ALWAYS saw humanity as beneath him. 

Praise from Medeus towards a human is going to come easier than praise from Loptyr, which is ironic, since Loptyr probably spends more time "among" humans and has to rely on them to subsist. 

That's... a bit debatable. I mean, Loptyr hated humans out of sheer pride because he viewed them as insects. Medeus hated them for how they persecuted manaketes. I would give Medeus the bigger hate cause his hatred is from watching 1000 years of his brethren suffering at the hands of humans.

But despite hating them, Medeus is showing more of a bit more... honorable side? I mean, I guess Medeus is willing to give credit where credit is due since he was defeated by Anri, a human who wielded Falchion. So him praising Camus for showing a might that allowed him to best a dragon is praise worthy, and reminds him of the strength that Anri displayed. 

[Cornguy]

Oh wow, perfect 50/50 after my vote.

If they were in a story-scripted battle, I feel like Camus would win. It would be close for sure, but I think Camus has the edge, in both experience and potential. As far as we know, Camus has participated in a lot more combat than Quan, and he's just generally made out to be a big deal. Quan is excellent, but Camus is on par with the biggest FE fighters.

Of course going by gameplay alone, Gae Bolg trumps Gradivus. But Gradivus doesn't exist in FE4, if it did, I'd imagine it'd be a lot closer to the Gae Bolg, though maybe still a little behind.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Cornguy

[Slumber]

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's... a bit debatable. I mean, Loptyr hated humans out of sheer pride because he viewed them as insects. Medeus hated them for how they persecuted manaketes. I would give Medeus the bigger hate cause his hatred is from watching 1000 years of his brethren suffering at the hands of humans.

But despite hating them, Medeus is showing more of a bit more... honorable side? I mean, I guess Medeus is willing to give credit where credit is due since he was defeated by Anri, a human who wielded Falchion. So him praising Camus for showing a might that allowed him to best a dragon is praise worthy, and reminds him of the strength that Anri displayed. 

That also boils down to Medeus living 1000 years acknowledging what humans are capable of. He hates humans, but he has no reason to pretend that they aren't capable of incredible(Good and bad) acts. 

Loptyr doesn't have to do that. His sole interaction is hundreds of years of using them as tools, barring the time Heim(And later Julia) fucked his shit up using the power of Naga. The sole times he has to give humans credit are the times that they were empowered by his mortal enemy. 

Which one of these two do you think would be more likely to acknowledge the power of a human? 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

That also boils down to Medeus living 1000 years acknowledging what humans are capable of. He hates humans, but he has no reason to pretend that they aren't capable of incredible(Good and bad) acts. 

Loptyr doesn't have to do that. His sole interaction is hundreds of years of using them as tools, barring the time Heim(And later Julia) fucked his shit up using the power of Naga. The sole times he has to give humans credit are the times that they were empowered by his mortal enemy. 

Which one of these two do you think would be more likely to acknowledge the power of a human? 

Though it was Heim (and then Julius) the defeated him, that doesn't change that it was humans that bonded with dragons that allowed them to fight against his oppressive forces, and Loptyr failed to defeat them after 16 years of a long war. Yet for Loptyr, there's more of a refusal of acknowledgement on them, due to how he's bound to pride of not wanting humans to be acknowledged as strong. This makes him also feel more petty compared to Medeus. Medeus is capable of acknowledging humans that grew strong, hence why he can acknowledge Camus and Anri. 

Though with Marth, Medeus may never have acknowledged Marth's strength, since Medeus never once refers to Marth by name. Rather, he calls Marth a brat and even in New Mystery, only as Anri's descendant. This is probably because Marth himself is strong only because of his allies, while Anri and Camus are just plain strong.

[Etrurian emperor]

When Camus ever fight Quan I don't see how the writers will justify not having Camus win. Camus is one of the more iconic FE characters from the game the devs and Japanese loves the most, he's got multiple appearances under his belt and has a strong fan following. Quan by contrast is just that important secondary character from the game IS tries not to think about to much. And the story does establish Camus as something really special so he has the skill to back up his status.

Then again we shouldn't over hype him either. For the villains Camus is definitely superior to Michalis and him being superior to Hardin(certainly in Nyna's eyes) is a plot point. But while better then either of them I don't think Camus was supposed to dominate his fellow villains by a significant margin either. Stat wise he's also weaker then his generic Rigel boss Gerome(but that's probably gameplay and story segregation)  and he's probably weaker than Rudolf. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Etrurian emperor