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Opinions on Camilla

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17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I admit that Tharja's obsession with Robin is very questionable as there's never any depth towards it. But at the very least, Tharja doesn't mention Robin in every support of every support conversation is about Robin. He does come up, but more often than not, its much fewer than Camilla's obsession with Corrin, where some supports are entirely about him. So overall I would still argue that Tharja is still better than Camilla. Even in Warriors, I feel that Tharja has much stronger support conversations than Camilla, like how she talks to Azura and tries to actually help have some hexes to counteract the dangers behind her pendent, the first character to actually try so.

True, in Supports, Camilla talks about Corrin more than Tharja talks about Robin. But I feel like Tharja's obssessive nature is brought up more often than Camilla's obssession over Corrin outside of Supports. Like, her Warriors entrance is literally her being a stalker, while the usual focus when Camilla appears anywhere is herself, not her love for Corrin. I don't mind either character, but I usually disagree with most comparisons made between them to make one look better or worse.

12 minutes ago, AlmondJuice said:

I could make a topic (or someone else can, I have no preference), about the JP Gray/Clair A support. I haven't read it, so I don't know if it's the same as the English support or not.

To boil it down, Gray/Clair A was supposed to be about Gray falling in love with Clair's personality, but localization makes him comment on her eyes instead for the joke, but also makes him look like an asshole when he's not.

Edited by SatsumaFSoysoy

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2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

To boil it down, Gray/Clair A was supposed to be about Gray falling in love with Clair's personality, but localization makes him comment on her eyes instead for the joke, but also makes him look like an asshole when he's not.

To quote Gray, "Ouch." I think it might be interesting to start a topic discussing the differences between JP supports and the localized supports (Saizo and Beruka C support being one of the most infamous ones), so I'll think about that for the future. Thank you.

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Personally I feel like she is a really bland character she had very little character development, then again barely any fates characters had any development.

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15 minutes ago, AlmondJuice said:

To quote Gray, "Ouch." I think it might be interesting to start a topic discussing the differences between JP supports and the localized supports (Saizo and Beruka C support being one of the most infamous ones), so I'll think about that for the future. Thank you.

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

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"""""Localization is a necessary process, just learn japanese if it bothers u lol""""""

Sorry, I'm getting flashbacks

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9 minutes ago, Dreamyboi said:

"""""Localization is a necessary process, just learn japanese if it bothers u lol""""""

Sorry, I'm getting flashbacks

The only thing that bothers me more than the Fates' localization is the people who actively defend it. I get it. Some stuff does need to be changed, but come the fuck on. Whole characters didn't need to be changed and whole conversations that are meant to be character development shouldn't didn't need to be removed.

My head damn near exploded when I found out that a bunch of those people also launched that site that ripped apart the Persona 5 localization.

Edited by Slumber

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Don't care for her, it really takes a lot for me to hate a character, like Patroklos from Soul Calibur 5.

imo, her obsession with the avatar is better than Thar'ja's, as its justifiable that she sees the avatar as a sibling.

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Whenever the topic of Camilla comes up, I usually mention I like Crown of Nibelung!Camilla.  I find her a lot more likable there.  So I'll start by saying that.  I like CoN Camilla.  She doesn't feel as... shoved in your face I guess? I can't put my finger on exactly what it is about CoN that made me like her more.  If only, if only she could be that likable in the game proper, rather than that just being a thing in a manga adaptation of Revelations most people here probably don't read.

Camilla's greatest problem is an emphasis on the least appealing aspects of her character, the ones that are creepy or pander too heavily to certain demographics.  There are interesting things about her, like the concubine stuff mentioned in her Niles support and Leo/Elise's chain, but a lot of that potential is just shoved aside in favor of IS seeing her as a pair of mammary glands infatuated with Corrin.  

Design wise, put her in something that doesn't look silly, and I actually like the design (thanks again to Crown of Nibelung).  The problems I have with Camilla's design involve some really silly juxtaposition, armor... but it exposes her chest (which if IS didn't get the memo, has some pretty vital organs), zombie dragon... but panties, how is she not extremely uncomfortable in the saddle?  Putting all this next to each other, then shoving it in our faces like "LOOK BOOBS" it just feels incredibly ridiculous to an extreme.

All that said, the CYL gauntlet made me like her more, since I didn't want Ike to win and sided with her for that reason... it didn't work, but it's the attempt that counts, right?  Right.

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20 minutes ago, Slumber said:

The only thing that bothers me more than the Fates' localization is the people who actively defend it. I get it. Some stuff does need to be changed, but come the fuck on. Whole characters didn't need to be changed and whole conversations that are meant to be character development shouldn't didn't need to be removed.

My head damn near exploded when I found out that a bunch of those people also launched that site that ripped apart the Persona 5 localization.

They scoff at genuine issues and write off upset fans as "Gamergaters" (whatever the hell THOSE are) but dogpile a decent localization with grammatical errors and typos because it's the hottest thing to whine about on twitter.....even though Fates also had grammatical errors and typos.

Thinking is just hard for some people I guess.

Edited by Dreamyboi

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I like her just fine.  I think she's a bit over-hated.

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7 minutes ago, Dreamyboi said:

They scoff at genuine issues and write off upset fans as "Gamergaters" and weebs (whatever the hell THOSE are) but dogpile a decent localization with grammatical errors and typos because it's the hottest thing to whine about on twitter.....even though Fates also had grammatical errors and typos.

Thinking is just hard for some people I guess.

 

26 minutes ago, Slumber said:

The only thing that bothers me more than the Fates' localization is the people who actively defend it. I get it. Some stuff does need to be changed, but come the fuck on. Whole characters didn't need to be changed and whole conversations that are meant to be character development shouldn't didn't need to be removed.

My head damn near exploded when I found out that a bunch of those people also launched that site that ripped apart the Persona 5 localization.

Something I should ask. Which do you think is better for Henry? 

Quote

In the English localized version he is shown as more of a jokester who enjoys puns and makes macabre jokes. He seemingly does not take anything seriously, and will joke in inappropriate situations. His dream is to have the bloodiest death possible. He has a passion for dark humor and bad puns, however it's also implied that he uses these puns and laughter as a coping mechanism, rather than solely as random comic relief.

In the Japanese version he does not make puns, just laughs in inappropriate times and tends not to care much about the gravity of situations. He smiles because he did not learn how to express emotions properly, and naively believes that since smiling is good, he should do it often regardless of the situation or how he feels. He acts innocent and child-like, despite his murderous tendencies. He does not wish for a painful death, but does not fear death either.

I honestly feel like the localized version makes Henry far more tragic where it feels like he's just... broken. 

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3 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I like her just fine.  I think she's a bit over-hated.

Pretty much. I agree she could have been handled better, but I do believe some of the hate she gets is exaggerated.

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10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I honestly feel like the localized version makes Henry far more tragic where it feels like he's just... broken. 

There, I think, will always be some exceptions.

Turning Effie from a demure knight who doesn't know her own strength to a single minded body builder, I don't think, is a very fun change, and one I don't think really adds anything. Neither is really all that fantastic, but Effie's clearly played for jokes either way, and there's something funny to me about a typical shrinking violet-type character who is actually insanely strong, while a generic dude-bro who happens to be a girl isn't funny to me. They're two different things, an one just doesn't quite work as well.

Henry's isn't so much a complete change of character, as it is simply giving Henry a morbid sense of humor about his situation. At the base of things, Henry doesn't change too much from Japan to the west, contextually. Both cases are of an emotionally stunted and damaged individual who try to be decent people, cope with their lives, and fit in with the "good guys". West Henry does it through jokes, Japanese Henry does it through smiling. Both of which they do at inappropriate times. The way they convey this is different, but I don't see the core of the character changing much. I probably would have been fine with either version of Henry, maybe liking West Henry a bit more, simply because a genuinely damaged character dealing it with jokes fits the tone of Awakening more than a genuinely damaged character who knows that they're damaged and knows how to not come off as damaged, but is too damaged to do it convincingly... that's a bit more depressing than "whacky", even if West Henry under a microscope comes off as more tragic.

Edited by Slumber

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She's all right, but I find her oversexualization a bit ridiculous. IMO fates had a big issue with the characters, it seemed like most of them were just boring and generic. She's a super strong unit though, pretty much required on harder difficulties of Conquest I find.

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31 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Whenever the topic of Camilla comes up, I usually mention I like Crown of Nibelung!Camilla.  I find her a lot more likable there.  So I'll start by saying that.  I like CoN Camilla.  She doesn't feel as... shoved in your face I guess? I can't put my finger on exactly what it is about CoN that made me like her more.  If only, if only she could be that likable in the game proper, rather than that just being a thing in a manga adaptation of Revelations most people here probably don't read.

Design wise, put her in something that doesn't look silly, and I actually like the design (thanks again to Crown of Nibelung).  The problems I have with Camilla's design involve some really silly juxtaposition, armor... but it exposes her chest (which if IS didn't get the memo, has some pretty vital organs), zombie dragon... but panties, how is she not extremely uncomfortable in the saddle?  Putting all this next to each other, then shoving it in our faces like "LOOK BOOBS" it just feels incredibly ridiculous to an extreme.

The manga design is great. While not as good, we also seen her in casual clothes that, while having cleavage, it's nowhere as fanservicy as the game.latest?cb=20160510051644

The difference between game and manga you are feeling might be because the manga is more focused on Leo, as Camilla is less likely to go yandere without Corrin and simply be that motherly figure she is supposed to be.

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In regard to Camilla's backstory, "I'm obsessed with Corrin because my mother never loved me and I don't want him to feel the same way" is given just as much focus as "I'm obsessed with Corrin because she was mad when I didn't give her cookies one time," so I'm not sure what to think there.

But that aside, I personally don't have any strong feelings for Camilla even though she gives the impression that fanservice is the main reason for her existence. Using another example, I like Pyra and Mythra, and they may have silly outfits but I don't get the impression that they exist solely for fanservice (of course they are fanservicey, but "solely" is a key phrase here). Camilla feels like she's trying too hard to be sexy to the point that it becomes unattractive, but again I don't mind her as a character.

2 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Whenever the topic of Camilla comes up, I usually mention I like Crown of Nibelung!Camilla.  I find her a lot more likable there.  So I'll start by saying that.  I like CoN Camilla.  She doesn't feel as... shoved in your face I guess? I can't put my finger on exactly what it is about CoN that made me like her more.  If only, if only she could be that likable in the game proper, rather than that just being a thing in a manga adaptation of Revelations most people here probably don't read.

Crown of Nibelung is targeted towards women...I think. Or at least it's in a magazine targeted towards women, so maybe they didn't feel the need to appeal to male audiences in a manga focused toward females. Based on that I think I can see why Camilla isn't "shoved in your face," but maybe that's just me being cynical.

Edited by Lightchao42

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21 minutes ago, Slumber said:

There, I think, will always be some exceptions.

Turning Effie from a demure knight who doesn't know her own strength to a single minded body builder, I don't think, is a very fun change, and one I don't think really adds anything. Neither is really all that fantastic, but Effie's clearly played for jokes either way, and there's something funny to me about a typical shrinking violet-type character who is actually insanely strong, while a generic dude-bro who happens to be a girl isn't funny to me. They're two different things, an one just doesn't quite work as well.

Henry's isn't so much a complete change of character, as it is simply giving Henry a morbid sense of humor about his situation. At the base of things, Henry doesn't change too much from Japan to the west, contextually. Both cases are of an emotionally stunted and damaged individual who try to be decent people, cope with their lives, and fit in with the "good guys". West Henry does it through jokes, Japanese Henry does it through smiling. Both of which they do at inappropriate times. The way they convey this is different, but I don't see the core of the character changing much. I probably would have been fine with either version of Henry, maybe liking West Henry a bit more, simply because a genuinely damaged character dealing it with jokes fits the tone of Awakening more than a genuinely damaged character who knows that they're damaged and knows how to not come off as damaged, but is too damaged to do it convincingly... that's a bit more depressing than "whacky", even if West Henry under a microscope comes off as more tragic.

Except they didn't. She got more gimmicky voicelines, definitely-- but that was done plenty of times before, like, say, basically Awakening's entire cast. The rest of her dialogue and her supports are left pretty well intact.

Henry goes from being an actor to an actor who believes his own act; for instance, people were turned off of pairing him with Olivia precisely due to his vastly different character. 

(Also, I see you overfocused on Saizo/Beruka. Not a fan of that; 1 out of nearly 2,000 support conversations, though).

40 minutes ago, Dreamyboi said:

They scoff at genuine issues and write off upset fans as "Gamergaters" (whatever the hell THOSE are) but dogpile a decent localization with grammatical errors and typos because it's the hottest thing to whine about on twitter.....even though Fates also had grammatical errors and typos.

Thinking is just hard for some people I guess.

Nice strawman right off the bat.

There's a difference between gimmicky voicelines and a few alterations here and there and having google translated text and awkward wording aplenty in your game. Fates has one or two typos; Persona 5 got an entire site built around that stuff. Atlus had been acquired by Sega for the purpose of their translation team, and Persona 5 ended up being a bit of a casualty.

Would also like to mention that I know someone who's studied Japanese and hopes to be a localizer themselves (having been one of the main translators for the highly-regarded fan translation for Ace Attorney Investigations 2)... who finds the Fates' drama to be ridiculously overblown and believes Persona 5's is justly criticized.

But no. Just write everyone off who doesn't share your opinion as idiots. 

 

Edited by The DanMan

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26 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

(Also, I see you overfocused on Saizo/Beruka. Not a fan of that; 1 out of nearly 2,000 support conversations, though).

The Saizo/Beruka thing DESERVES overfocus. One thing that gets a lot of complaints with the Fateswakening style of supports is that there's really very little that brings most of these characters together.

So then you get Saizo and Beruka, two assassins with different feelings on their professions, and you expect they'd have plenty of common ground to spark up a conversation. Which actually happens in the Japanese version, where they discuss their professions to one another, which is a good foundation for their supports.

The western release doesn't do this. They straight up nix it and replace it with ellipses as a joke, and then the next support just starts with "SO ABOUT KILLIN' PEOPLE". Not only do we lose the foundation that their supports should be built on, the next support chain just happens as if they talked about that stuff off-screen, anyway. Literally the only one who loses out on the change is us, the players, for a joke.

And it exemplifies two things. The first being the problems some people have had with the handling of supports, which now goes through another process of wondering "Are these characters bad or is the localization bad?", the second being... well, it's emblematic of a lot of the localization problems people have had with the series as a whole(I'm not trying to say Awakening and Fates are the only FEs with localization issues), but have really come to a head with Awakening and Fates, where the line between "Was this a genuine attempt at comedy from the writers, or is this something the localizers thought would be funny?" becomes more and more blurred. Saizo/Beruka is such an easy picking point, because it's one of the times when it's blatantly clear that the localizers are changing shit for no reason to our detriment. If you feel like you have to doubt the localizers for almost every step of the way, maybe there's something wrong with the localization.

Edited by Slumber

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Honestly, IS could have easily focus on both her sexyness and damaged past by having her act as a black widow of sorts. She could seduce, like full "let's have sex" seduce, those planning to overthrow her father into giving away information about such rebellions, and then kill them when she's done or something. You could have Corrin or one of her other siblings express concern about this behavior, and delve into how damaged she is in having to kill other family members to survive, that she's willing to do anything to protect what's left of her family.

 

But nope, yandere onee-san.

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Just a huge disservice to the potential of this traumatized character.  Her past revealed in some supports is interesting.  However there is so much focus on her assets, appealing to sis cons, and other nonsense.  Doting on Corrin, then Leo her blood half brother having the hots of her too.   That first cut scene with her coming to Corrin in Birthright says it all.  I mean how much more in your face can you get?  She comes with the most interesting class of the royals and with focus can actually build her into a decent magic user or excellent user of bolt axe which is cool.  She has that at least.

Fire Emblem has always had 'fan service', usually in the form of very attractive women.  However I'm going to use Fates, the very same game, to show an example of fan service done right.  Kagero.  Yeah she is stacked and very attractive, however it isn't focused on.  We learn of her dutifulness but more welcoming and less harsh than Saizo, as well as her love for drawing even if she lacks in talent.  We don't see her doing strip teases, or talking seductively 80% of the time.  

Then again she is a very popular character when looking at various polls so I guess that would make the design a success. 

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15 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

I like Camilla because she has big tiddies.

2 minutes ago, TrueDarkAce said:

She's cool

1:05 to 1:09

4 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Fire Emblem has always had 'fan service', usually in the form of very attractive women.  However I'm going to use Fates, the very same game, to show an example of fan service done right.  Kagero.  Yeah she is stacked and very attractive, however it isn't focused on.  We learn of her dutifulness but more welcoming and less harsh than Saizo, as well as her love for drawing even if she lacks in talent.  We don't see her doing strip teases, or talking seductively 80% of the time

I agree with this. Most official art of her depicts her as "stacked and very attractive" like you said. But what I like about Kagero is that she's a more developed character despite not having much screen time story-wise. Maybe developed is too big a word, but she has relatable traits, like enjoyment of art, that make her more appealing than Camilla. And she's a ninja, which is pretty badass.

But we all know Kaze has the best chest.

 

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I really like Camilla; one of my favourite characters in the series for sure.

Design-wise, she's a physically imposing, strong woman who looks like she could carve you in half with that axe of hers. In a series which has far too many of the female warriors be dainty-looking waifs this is a welcome change. She is, of course, also pretty; I love the hair in particular. Her armour's dumb, especially the lower half, but you don't actually see that very often.

Character-wise I enjoy her confident manner. I like the juxtaposition of the caring character who is brutal to her enemies. I love that she actually trash-talks. A lot of this is tied up in gender-related stuff; a male version of Camilla probably wouldn't stand out nearly as much, but she breaks some barriers hard and I love it.

I think her relationship with Corrin is a weak point (though IMO it works a lot better with female Corrin, who I always play as), but she makes up for it with good relationships with the rest of her siblings (Elise in particular, that support chain makes me d'awww so hard), her retainers, and Niles. Her backstory isn't given much time (and hell, some of it isn't even in her own supports), but it's really intriguing and informs an awful lot about the way she now acts. I like that she spirals into depression and near-madness in Birthright. Birthright is in so many ways the "right" choice that it's good to see the bad of it explored, and the bad is how it tears about Corrin's family, especially her.

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