Chconroy

Regarding the returning characters...

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While talking with a friend, he told me that he thinks it was poor for Mystery of the Emblem (both SNES and DS) to bring back Shadow Dragon characters and have them be at lower levels despite them having fought and promoted in the previous game; saying that it was lazy to have older characters be at a lower level instead of keeping them at their higher levels and making more new characters who are low level for the early game. His main example is the fact that Gordin was a Sniper by the end of his Shadow Dragon playthrough and was somehow a low level Archer in the beginning of this game.

I didn't think the complaint was valid, but I'm curious if there's anyone who feels similarly.

Edited by Chconroy

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Personally, I don't mind it much, or even pay much attention to it, because it's essentially Gameplay and Story Segregation. The levels and stats and all that stuff are there for the sake of having a game, but aren't an 100% indication of the characters' in-story capabilities. More so since we are talking about two different adventures, where even if they use the same system, it won't be a literal 1:1 transition from one to the other.

Compare this to, say, Tellius. Radiant Dawn basically brings back third-tier classes (not seen since Gaiden at the time) in order to stablish a sense of progression. Though even then it's still not perfect since it uses a slightly different stat system altogether, among other things.

So yeah, as far as just my opinion goes on the matter, not something I mind if at all.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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One person uses Gordin, and maxes him out.  The other leaves him on the bench.  Which one of these interpretations works for an overarching story?

Since there's no save file import, there's no reason why someone like Gordin should start out at an absurdly high level.

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That's like a case of gameplay-story segregation.

The issue is that so much of the cast from Book 1 returns in Book 2, and thus the balance becomes quite variable.  The units you did favor will all be super OP for probably the whole game, while every other unit will be a liability.  Especially units like Midia, which will be at the mercy of much more powerful enemies if you don't have a Rescue on you.  Or they'll be powerful enemies that could wipe out all your units if you aren't careful.

And don't tell me they'll make it so that they'd adjust the enemies and the leveling for this, because that'd be even worse.  There's a very good reason why devs don't even attempt to make characters retain levels in sequels.  The best you'll get is maybe some bonuses, and that's honestly the way it should be.

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I don't know.

Samus does always lose every single power-ups before the beginning of each game. 

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The Greil mercenaries did their return a lot better than Marth's crew. Almost all of them are promoted which shows they really did gain a lot of experience in the previous war. But its worth remembering that the Greil mercenaries had the luxury of being introduced fairly late in RD at a stage were most enemies are generally promoted as well.

Marth's crew didn't have that. They were all introduced at the very beginning of new mystery so if they all arrived as promoted unit with killer stats then the early enemies all needed to be scaled up to match them which would just have created a big mess. Gordin being a mere archer rather than the best sniper around is a pretty reasonable example of gameplay and story segregation. 

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It's understandable to have stats "decay" over the peace period, but I really think the level curve should have started higher in Mystery. Have Marth start at level 10 and scale people up accordingly (Gordin level 9, Draug 10 or 11, 7th Platoon 5-7, etc.)  Enemies are mostly 3-5 in chapter 1 for story reasons but then they jump to 8-10 in chapter 2, and it goes on from there. It would make the extremely early prepromotes look less out of place and would give the game better pacing overall. Also alleviates the issues from adding the Prologue, which makes the noob portion of the game drag out.  Just do what Lyn Mode did and give the 7th Platoon two sets of stats, one for Prologue and one for no Prologue, and let us skip it if we want.

 

EDIT: Also, the thought of FE12 with FE10-style transfer bonuses is entertaining.

Edited by X-Naut

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Well, Abel starts as a Cavalier in Shadow Dragon and a Paladin in Mystery, and Boss!Hardin has much higher stats than Base!Hardin. So presumably Marth did an Abel+Hardin solo run in canon, (with maybe a little help from Lorenz, since he's not playable in Mystery. Hardin's subordinates are also pretty highly levelled when you recruit them too).

Edited by Jotari

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It doesn't make much sense for character progression, but it does make sense gameplay-wise. It's not the only series where the characters lose a lot of their OP abilities from a past game. There's only a two year gap in between the games, so it doesn't make sense for them to lose that much stats in that time (well, the knight characters, since they'll most likely keep training even after the war.) At least Abel and Kain were decently leveled.

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I've personally viewed it from the point that all that experience and promotes are the equivalent of what they start with in the new game. Since Mystery would be a harder war, the 24 strength a unit had in Shadow Dragon is the equivalent of 7 strength in Mystery. So their promotes are the equivalent of the base classes in turn. Just imagine they get a third tier or something... This is just how I've always personally viewed it when a unit comes back weaker than they were.

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I suppose that could work, but there's the issue that some newcomers would inexplicably be stronger than what the story suggests.

Gameplay-wise, the gap between characters like, say, Cain and the 7th Platoon cavaliers, or Gordin and Ryan, or Linde and Yubello, aren't that big like what the story would suggest.

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Personally I'd make most of the SD veterans, specifically the ones who are talked up in the dialogue, somewhere between lv10 and lv1 promoted in NM. Most of them already are somewhat appropriate, it's mostly just Gordin and Draug who stand out. Gordin especially, since he's implied to apprentice under Jeorge, AND they give you two, fresh babby-archers, so Gordin no longer needs to fill that role.

But then you might have to pump up Marth as well. NM Marth would be a pretty cool Jeigan-lord though. Arran's presence is also a little strange. Never understood what they were hoping to gain by replacing Jeigan with him.

The stats aren't that big a deal though, this game has a ton of gameplay/story disconnect when it comes to stats, it's not like pumping up Cain, Draug and Gordin would improve the narrative that much.

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The reason for this is that it would have broken the original book 2 of FE3 even more than it already was, and that game is a mess in terms of balancing if you haven't played it.

Also something I think might be worth noting about FE1 and FE3 was that units had didn't really have to promote at all sometimes. The reason for this is because all stats other than HP capped at 20 and how stat bonuses on promotion worked. The only real benefit of promoting usually was the level reset and mov bonus.

Oh and one more thing. Darros, Roshea, Vyland, Dolph, Macellan, Tomas, Abel, Lena, Maria, and Elice all join promoted unlike in SD. Just sayin.

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SNES data limits prevented too many new characters from appearing in Book 2 - it saved space to re-use characters. As cool as it might have been for Book 2 to be akin to a second generation where your badasses from Book 2 came back later, it wasn't feasible if the roster for Book 2 was going to be balanced.

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On 4/23/2018 at 11:47 AM, DemolisherBPB said:

I've personally viewed it from the point that all that experience and promotes are the equivalent of what they start with in the new game. Since Mystery would be a harder war, the 24 strength a unit had in Shadow Dragon is the equivalent of 7 strength in Mystery. So their promotes are the equivalent of the base classes in turn. Just imagine they get a third tier or something... This is just how I've always personally viewed it when a unit comes back weaker than they were.

I can see Book 1 and Book 2 using different sets of stats for promoted/unpromoted units a la PoR and RD, potentially with a higher level cap (30 instead of 20) in place of third tiers.

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