Finn Deserves Better

[bottlegnomes]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Personally I think Olwen should have been given the super Brave Sword. Can't really have too many complaints about Finn since the Brave Lance is his lance. It'd be sort of weird if had a made up prf just to be more special Hell, that'd be like giving Saias a prf tome when he was primarly a staff bot

Saias being a staff unit with a personal staff would've been pretty sweet.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

56 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Saias being a staff unit with a personal staff would've been pretty sweet.

He should have been another edition of Marth with super buff

 

Seriously when everyone talks about Reinhardt being a hard boss, im baffled by that notion exactly because Saias exists. You want a bullshit boss? thats your guy who is responsible for 90% of what makes Reinhardt's stage bullshit to begin with

 

And Saias didn't even have the full power of Thracia healer. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Book Bro]

I would've liked Finn to be more eye catching for sure, and for Leif to have a magic sword, but I'm not at all annoyed that Reinhardt and Olwen got more interesting alts on the Thracia banner. Thracia is the least played/known game overall, so they had to make it attractive for the large casual Heroes playerbase. Could Leif have been treated better as a main lord? Definitely, but heck, he's better than Marth in the game. Hopefully both Finn and Leif get updated weapons, and maybe a legendary alt for Master Knight Leif eventually.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 minutes ago, Book Bro said:

I would've liked Finn to be more eye catching for sure, and for Leif to have a magic sword, but I'm not at all annoyed that Reinhardt and Olwen got more interesting alts on the Thracia banner. Thracia is the least played/known game overall, so they had to make it attractive for the large casual Heroes playerbase. Could Leif have been treated better as a main lord? Definitely, but heck, he's better than Marth in the game. Hopefully both Finn and Leif get updated weapons, and maybe a legendary alt for Master Knight Leif eventually.

Eh, Marth is weirdly unique right now that i won't really name random Swordies to be better than him

Leif is def better as a combat unit, but Marth's combo of +2 stats buff and dragonslaying is weirdly great atm

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

He should have been another edition of Marth with super buff

 

Seriously when everyone talks about Reinhardt being a hard boss, im baffled by that notion exactly because Saias exists. You want a bullshit boss? thats your guy who is responsible for 90% of what makes Reinhardt's stage bullshit to begin with

 

And Saias didn't even have the full power of Thracia healer. 

Saias has annoying coverage as an enemy support unit (which actually, I'd like to see a bit more of in modern bosses), but ultimately you just to hit him once to defeat him.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Saias has annoying coverage as an enemy support unit (which actually, I'd like to see a bit more of in modern bosses), but ultimately you just to hit him once to defeat him.

Its not defeating him

 

Having him on the map practically levels every enemy by 15. Saias manage to acomplish something nobody else in Thracia did: Made their joke of an enemy into a monster and thats what make him the most bullshit boss in the entire game

 

If you use one of many ways to remove Saias from the map(because Thracia is broken), the map becomes a complete joke in comparison because again, Thracia is broken. Olson could probably solo that map after that point

Edited April 21, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[bottlegnomes]

17 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

He should have been another edition of Marth with super buff

 

Seriously when everyone talks about Reinhardt being a hard boss, im baffled by that notion exactly because Saias exists. You want a bullshit boss? thats your guy who is responsible for 90% of what makes Reinhardt's stage bullshit to begin with

 

And Saias didn't even have the full power of Thracia healer. 

Yeah, I would've really liked Saias to retain his role as a super support unit. It would've definitely made him unique as far as GHB units, but I guess it would be less obviously impressive and GHBs do still need to be a little noteworthy to keep people interested. Plus, quad ploying does somewhat simulate how obnoxious he is to be on the opposite end of.

[XRay]

7 hours ago, VincentASM said:

My hope for the future is that all Brave weapons (such as Finn's) can be refined to their Master versions, although I have a feeling that might really mess with the game balance XD

I do not think it is that bad. If anything, Meister Weapons would be buffing Enemy Phase units, which most players do not have a problem with. I assume most or all Enemy Phase players will be happy since they have a new Weapon to play with. I cannot speak for all Player Phase players, but buffing Enemy Phase units is not really a big deal since we have BH!Lyn and access to Firesweep archers and healers.

Offensively, even if you give Meister Weapons (assuming they are the same as Brave Weapons except with the added Enemy Phase effect) the same Refinements of HP+5 and +2/+3/+4/+4, Meister Weapons will still only outperform Slaying Weapons if buffs are involved. Meister Weapons would still be dependent on buffs if they want to compete with Slaying Weapons.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I wanted Master Weapons to be a thing for a while now, but my idea was that, where Brave Weapons have their effect on player phase, Master Weapons would only have their effect on enemy phase. I think that would have made both distinct and useful. But the Reinhardt comes waltzing in with his awesome always Brave Sword and ruins the potential for dedicated Brave Tankers forever.

I think it is fine to make Brave Weapons Refinable to Meister Weapons and let Meister Weapons keep its attack twice effect on both phases, assuming Meisters have the same Mt and Spd penalty as Braves. They should not be that much more difficult to tank since your Enemy Phase units will still knock them out with a Special activation.

2 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

It would've definitely made him unique as far as GHB units, but I guess it would be less obviously impressive

Unique/gimmicky units can be impressive if the developers make those gimmicks viable. Marth as a buff bot is bit unique, but it seems quite viable (I cannot really say if it is actually viable since I have not actually tried it out yet) since it buffs all stats and it cannot be Panicked away as a Spur.

On the other hand, if you want unimpressive unique special Refinements, there is Sanaki and Lloyd. Forcing a specific teammate for a beneficial effect to be active generally is not worth the expense to upgrade it unless you already have that team composition. Lloyd's situation is better than Sanaki's as he got an improved Atk/Spd +3 as the new effect, but all Sanaki got is just a Drive Atk buff and is clearly outclassed by Marth as a support unit.

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by XRay

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Its not defeating him

 

Having him on the map practically levels every enemy by 15. Saias manage to acomplish something nobody else in Thracia did: Made their joke of an enemy into a monster and thats what make him the most bullshit boss in the entire game

 

If you use one of many ways to remove Saias from the map(because Thracia is broken), the map becomes a complete joke in comparison because again, Thracia is broken. Olson could probably solo that map after that point

It's not too hard to get rid of him. You just need a rescue staff or, failing that, a bolting once your close enough to even target him. I wouldn't say the map's a joke without him though. Reinhardt and his team can still be dangerous, and you have to contend with Cowen, who's also statusing your units and won't go down in one hit. If you're going in blind, the bridge gimick can also really screw you over. Of course if you're playing Thracia blind, you're probably use to the game blindsiding you by now.

[BANRYU]

To be fair, I feel like Rein's voicework is actually pretty decent? :o And I'm not really familiar with this thing about the 'dude who wanted Hector' at all though, can anyone tell me what that's about? 

It is too bad he kinda got shafted, but looking at other F2P units, I can't really be all that surprised... the only one I can think of offhand who was particularly noteworthy was the BK himself, though Arden is also kinda unique... 

[Vince777]

32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's not too hard to get rid of him. You just need a rescue staff or, failing that, a bolting once your close enough to even target him. I wouldn't say the map's a joke without him though. Reinhardt and his team can still be dangerous, and you have to contend with Cowen, who's also statusing your units and won't go down in one hit. If you're going in blind, the bridge gimick can also really screw you over. Of course if you're playing Thracia blind, you're probably use to the game blindsiding you by now.

Doesn't it have ballistas all over the place as well?

The one thing that always scared me the most about Reinhardt is the fact that he moves and has movement stars which may entirely ruin a defensive strategy. 

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Doesn't it have ballistas all over the place as well?

The one thing that always scared me the most about Reinhardt is the fact that he moves and has movement stars which may entirely ruin a defensive strategy. 

Yep, five of em, giving him a 25% chance of acting again on any turn. Seriously, when a boss is that good, it's not designed to be fought fairly. You have to cheese him with sleep or something.

[bottlegnomes]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Unique/gimmicky units can be impressive if the developers make those gimmicks viable. Marth as a buff bot is bit unique, but it seems quite viable (I cannot really say if it is actually viable since I have not actually tried it out yet) since it buffs all stats and it cannot be Panicked away as a Spur.

On the other hand, if you want unimpressive unique special Refinements, there is Sanaki and Lloyd. Forcing a specific teammate for a beneficial effect to be active generally is not worth the expense to upgrade it unless you already have that team composition. Lloyd's situation is better than Sanaki's as he got an improved Atk/Spd +3 as the new effect, but all Sanaki got is just a Drive Atk buff and is clearly outclassed by Marth as a support unit.

Oh, I don't disagree by any means. I just feel like more serious fans of the series will want him because they like him and whales won't really care because GHBs will probably never be top tier again. So that just leaves F2P casual fans who would really need to be swayed, and maybe I'm off-base here, but I get the impression that a unit that can quad-ploy and is an okay combat mage/magic tank would seem more appealing to them than a unit who's a more dedicated support role. For example, I know in mainline FE, dancers and staff shenanigans aren't beloved by casual fans the way they are in more hardcore circles. Don't know how much that carries over to FEH though.

On a side note, just related to Finn, a lot of his dialogue makes it almost seem like they were planning to give him a unique weapon. I get that Quan would've been the one who gave him the brave lance he's using in Heroes, but the amount of emphasis he places on it seems a little odd given it's just a regular old brave lance without that context. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Silverly]

43 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

To be fair, I feel like Rein's voicework is actually pretty decent? :o And I'm not really familiar with this thing about the 'dude who wanted Hector' at all though, can anyone tell me what that's about? 

That dude would be Ziss, who was an infamous whale who wasted a lot of money trying to pull Hector in FEH’s infancy. I don’t think he’s even made any videos related to the game since April as a matter of fact.

Also as I mentioned before,  I think the comment about the voice acting was just a joke. Such a criticism would be too petty to be taken seriously.

[bottlegnomes]

3 minutes ago, SilvertheShadow said:

Also as I mentioned before,  I think the comment about the voice acting was just a joke. Such a criticism would be too petty to be taken seriously.

We are on the internet...

[Silverly]

24 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

We are on the internet...

Well duh. I’m aware they might have unironically included that, but I’m simply giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. At the very least they decided to mix in legitimate criticisms with purposefully silly quibbles.

[Lewyn]

We're never going to have an original Reinhardt situation again.  That an obscure character became popular hasn't taught them anything.  That is the real issue here.  When new heroes finally get in they are in the shadow of alts within the banner.  Well of course no one is going to care about them.  Alts are getting alts already cause they are popular, no need to make every alt top tier star of the banner it is just double disservice to new heroes making their debut.  Sorry for using the word alt too much.  

Edited April 21, 2018 by Lewyn

[XRay]

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

For example, I know in mainline FE, dancers and staff shenanigans aren't beloved by casual fans the way they are in more hardcore circles. Don't know how much that carries over to FEH though.

It depends on the type of support units. Dancers/Singers have a much higher impact in Heroes than in the main series. Staff healers are amongst the best nukes in Heroes, while staff healers in the main series have more emphasis in support. Buffers in Heroes are pretty similar to Rally bots in the main series.

I do not think Dancers/Singers are quite comparable between the main series and Heroes. Dancers/Singers are a lot more powerful in Heroes due to the small map size, a lot less units on the map at once, much more limited movement, and a much higher chance of being one round knocked out. In the main series, maps are much bigger so it is quite a bit easier to bait enemies apart on Enemy Phase; there are a lot more units on both teams so refreshing a unit is not as big of a benefit; units having much better movement means that it is much easier to move around without the need for Assists; and unless you are playing on Lunatic+ or something, being one round knocked out is a lot less common so you can usually just leave your nukes in enemy range.

Staff healers in Heroes are much better nukes due to Dazzling-Wrathful combo emulating Firesweep archers, and their healing ability is just a cherry on top. In the main series, there is more emphasis on healing since units are much less likely to die in one round of combat, and tanks are much easier to use as the weapon triangle in the main series is much less pronounced.

Buffers and Rally bots are pretty similar in their respective games. On Normal and Hard mode in Heroes, buffing is not really necessary, but on more difficult modes, buffing is quite often mandatory. This is pretty similar in the main series where you do not really need Rally bots on easier difficulty, but they become more important when you tackle harder difficulty.

Edited April 21, 2018 by XRay

[FoxyGrandpa]

I would have loved a weapon more like Amiti for FInn (Maybe Finn's Lance?) but what he has now is workable and honestly very fitting. Miracle, Brave Lance, and Goad Calvary all represent his innate skills / weapons in Tharacia 776 / Genealogy of  the Holy War extremely fatefully, which is more than what I can say for other units (mainly WT! Olwen). Besides that, his stat spread for a f2p Cavalier unit is extremely good and I'm excited to build him with other weapons like Slaying Lance or Ridersbane. 

[DemolisherBPB]

My personal feelings on Finn is he's not husbando enough to have special stuff. I'm joking but the unit favouritism is odd on who gets special stuff and who doesn't. Almost every female swordmaster dose mind you.

But Finn in comparison to units of his games feels like he got the same treatment as Talitu, sure people like them, but not enough to make them care about giving them individuality. Both just have regular weapons, Finn gets it a little better as at least he has a mirical, Talitu doesn't have Wrath.

Meanwhile theres Ayra with a special sword and skill, Yes astra worked a bit different in 4/5, So did mirical so why doesn't Finns? Even if it was just faster charges or could keep the unit on 1 hp. Finn been a TT unit doesn't exclude him from personal skills or weapons as The black knight exists. Okay so Ayras sword is to refrence her blood, but Finns brave lance was a personal weapon, and why hes in with Talitu for me she didn't get a weapon for her blood.

I'm more just sad as he's been given the 'bare bones' treatment and they go round will nily giving everyone personal weapons if they have strong husbando/waifu appeal. (That joke wasn't funny the first time)

 

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

4 hours ago, DemolisherBPB said:

My personal feelings on Finn is he's not husbando enough to have special stuff. I'm joking but the unit favouritism is odd on who gets special stuff and who doesn't. Almost every female swordmaster dose mind you.

But Finn in comparison to units of his games feels like he got the same treatment as Talitu, sure people like them, but not enough to make them care about giving them individuality. Both just have regular weapons, Finn gets it a little better as at least he has a mirical, Talitu doesn't have Wrath.

Meanwhile theres Ayra with a special sword and skill, Yes astra worked a bit different in 4/5, So did mirical so why doesn't Finns? Even if it was just faster charges or could keep the unit on 1 hp. Finn been a TT unit doesn't exclude him from personal skills or weapons as The black knight exists. Okay so Ayras sword is to refrence her blood, but Finns brave lance was a personal weapon, and why hes in with Talitu for me she didn't get a weapon for her blood.

I'm more just sad as he's been given the 'bare bones' treatment and they go round will nily giving everyone personal weapons if they have strong husbando/waifu appeal. (That joke wasn't funny the first time)

 

The thing is that Wrath far more broken in this game that it was on Tailtu in FE4, where she was mostly useless in combat with or without that skill. And broken things in Heroes=exclusive and rare. Giving her a Bladetome and high speed does give her offense that Wrath gave her in FE4 though. She's basically a blue Nino. It's just that the Reinhardt is the best blue mage in this game and Linde exists as infantry blue. Tailtu has some good skills too. Drive Spd is nice and a Dual Rally is good for Arena scoring. 

Ayra is not a TT reward. You have to pay orbs to get her, and most likely real money since she is rare as hell. 

The issue is Finn's class. He's Lance Calvary. He's a solider who rides a horse and attacks with a lance, which is always going to be "vanilla" compared to Armors and Sword wielders. If you want to use him , it's going to be with Horse Emblem buffs. All of Finn's predecessors are just as vanilla and require substantial investment except for Camus and Ephraim, both of whom were not merely common soldiers but portrayed as a cut above in terms of combat ability. Miracle abuse would be a way to make him special and keep him in character since that is basically his calling card in his games along with Brave Lance. They instead make Finn a Lance Cav with Atk, Spd, and Def, a combination not seen in past Lance Cavs. 

 Swordmasters are critical machines who rely on their specials by nature and Armors has so much BST that they are limited to one move to balance out. Black Knight is built up as a monster in his original game who kills the main character's father and has Goddess blessed Armor, is revealed to be freakishly fast due to being a Branded in the sequel, and has Eclipse in the same sequel game. Eclipse is even more broken than Black Luna, granting complete negation of DEF/RES.

It's the classic tradeoff in Fire Emblem for melee Calvary. For the price of horse, you get something more vanilla and plain. The movement of the horse is that special something.

Edited April 22, 2018 by SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre

[Zapp Branniglenn]

A lot of written dialogue for Finn regards his lance as something really special. Probably written at an early stage of development where he would be a banner unit with a personal weapon. Our tease of this banner last month had Leif, Nanna, and Finn - pretty much the exact three person banner we could have anticipated for Thracia.

[DemolisherBPB]

5 hours ago, SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre said:

The thing is that Wrath far more broken in this game that it was on Tailtu in FE4, where she was mostly useless in combat with or without that skill. And broken things in Heroes=exclusive and rare. Giving her a Bladetome and high speed does give her offense that Wrath gave her in FE4 though. She's basically a blue Nino. It's just that the Reinhardt is the best blue mage in this game and Linde exists as infantry blue. Tailtu has some good skills too. Drive Spd is nice and a Dual Rally is good for Arena scoring. 

Ayra is not a TT reward. You have to pay orbs to get her, and most likely real money since she is rare as hell. 

The issue is Finn's class. He's Lance Calvary. He's a solider who rides a horse and attacks with a lance, which is always going to be "vanilla" compared to Armors and Sword wielders. If you want to use him , it's going to be with Horse Emblem buffs. All of Finn's predecessors are just as vanilla and require substantial investment except for Camus and Ephraim, both of whom were not merely common soldiers but portrayed as a cut above in terms of combat ability. Miracle abuse would be a way to make him special and keep him in character since that is basically his calling card in his games along with Brave Lance. They instead make Finn a Lance Cav with Atk, Spd, and Def, a combination not seen in past Lance Cavs. 

 Swordmasters are critical machines who rely on their specials by nature and Armors has so much BST that they are limited to one move to balance out. Black Knight is built up as a monster in his original game who kills the main character's father and has Goddess blessed Armor, is revealed to be freakishly fast due to being a Branded in the sequel, and has Eclipse in the same sequel game. Eclipse is even more broken than Black Luna, granting complete negation of DEF/RES.

It's the classic tradeoff in Fire Emblem for melee Calvary. For the price of horse, you get something more vanilla and plain. The movement of the horse is that special something.

Justify it however you feel, But lets be honest, who you are what game your from, your relevance means nothing. It's popularity that makes units good. I don't get what makes a lance Cav "vanilla" that seems like your personal opinion. Plus you've looked at this from a game point of view, I never said Finns stuff had to be good. I just wanted him to have something to make him different. People can have special stuff and be bad, I wouldn't care, I just like the Idea of people who had something individual in their game having that show. If a unit did something special let it show! Holy blood should give you something. You should have the personal weapons you have! If that weapon is something else that exist it could just be a slightly altered "X's Weapon" even if it's just more might....

Also armours hardly "Limited to one move" Boots/March makes them OP as they are unhindered by terrain and have normal movement.

[Thor Odinson]

I'm annoyed because Finn's brave lance is a prf weapon in Thracia, unlike in FE4. There's nothing stopping TT units from having Prfs, like with BK and Joshua, there's nothing stopping 2 weapons from having the same effect on the same release period, like Ivaldi and Glephnir, and characters are getting prfs that never existed---which I'm not saying they shouldn't, but I think it's dumb that Finn can't even get his actual prf when people who don't have them get them. If they don't want something as strong as Meisterschwert handed out for free--which I think it wouldn't be that impactful on a no-iv merge once unit anyway but understandable--he really could've still gotten something, without being OP. Especially since he keeps on talking about it.

Plus, it's not like they didn't make BK.

Some people in some chats I'm in mentioned putting guard on his lance as a homage to the +10 luck since luck is crit negating and I thought that could be cool.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Thor Odinson

[BANRYU]

18 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

I'm annoyed because Finn's brave lance is a prf weapon in Thracia, unlike in FE4. There's nothing stopping TT units from having Prfs, like with BK and Joshua, there's nothing stopping 2 weapons from having the same effect on the same release period, like Ivaldi and Glephnir, and characters are getting prfs that never existed---which I'm not saying they shouldn't, but I think it's dumb that Finn can't even get his actual prf when people who don't have them get them. If they don't want something as strong as Meisterschwert handed out for free--which I think it wouldn't be that impactful on a no-iv merge once unit anyway but understandable--he really could've still gotten something, without being OP. Especially since he keeps on talking about it.

Plus, it's not like they didn't make BK.

Some people in some chats I'm in mentioned putting guard on his lance as a homage to the +10 luck since luck is crit negating and I thought that could be cool.

Having his weapon be 'Finn's Lance' as a Brave Lance with built-in Guard 2-3 and maybe 1-2 more points of Mt would have been pretty cool, yeah.

oh well. =3=