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Why is the Ike x Lethe ship so rare?


IEatLasers
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3 hours ago, IEatLasers said:

Oh really? 

See my dad told me I should never look up

name x name 

Your father is extremely intelligent then - I only ever made the mistake once, because my friend told me Roxas-Xion is an adorable pairing with lots of cute art. Cute's not the only kind of art people put together for these things.

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On 4/24/2018 at 5:38 PM, IEatLasers said:

Who are those 

Late but I like to provide more info than simply 'characters from X game' - however, I'm afraid there's much spoilery so if you might ever want to play Kingdom Hearts without having things spoiled don't click the spoiler tags 'cuz those will have more info.

Roxas is a kid who joins the mysterious Organization XIII in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days, the KH game I started the series with(and an interesting game on its own too that was good enough for me to want more). The game revolves around him trying to figure out who he is and what his true purpose in life is, as, unlike the other members of the Organization, he doesn't remember his past for unknown reasons that only make sense to people who played the first game and Chain of Memories, namely

Spoiler

that he's Sora's Nobody, created during the endgame of Kingdom Hearts when Sora turned himself into a Heartless to free Kairi's heart, and the reason he doesn't know who he was is because Kairi restored Sora's Heartless body to its normal appearance almost immediately afterwards, meaning Sora retained his memories and they therefore can't go to Roxas. Roxas gradually gains more awareness of himself and Sora as Days progresses because Chain of Memories happens during Days - all the memories Namine locks away inside Sora find their way to Roxas. Eventually, after Days' climactic and moving final battle, Roxas says screw it to the Organization and leaves, only to come across Riku in a special bonus level where you're OP as heck. He beats Riku, but is then defeated and taken to a digital version of Twilight Town, following which Kingdom Hearts 2's Prologue begins, eventually ending with Roxas discovering Sora's sleeping pod and returning to Sora, ceasing to exist physically.

Xion is Roxas' friend and the 14th member of Organization XIII(already things aren't adding up). Originally very quiet, she quickly becomes friendly after being paired up with Roxas on a couple missions. On one mission, however, she passes out and is comatose for roughly 25 days(I don't remember the exact number but it shouldn't be longer than that), following which she begins to have difficulty using her weapon of choice. Eventually, she runs away and Roxas and Xion's friend Axel has to bring her back by force.

Spoiler

This is also when Roxas first begins to seriously doubt the Organization's purposes, and is part of the reason he doubts them. Some time after he leaves, she appears on the clock tower and...challenges him to a deathmatch. It turns out Xion isn't a Nobody at all, but is a Replica designed to copy Sora's memories from Roxas, eventually 'becoming' Sora. This backfired as she began to develop her own personality built around Roxas' borrowed memories of Sora's memories of Kairi, so Xemnas more or less pulled an Idunn on her and made her more compliant after Axel brings her back, and she ends up being the huge final battle where you fight her across multiple worlds in four different forms. After Roxas curbstomps defeats her, she asks him to release Kingdom Hearts to stop the Organization before dying and breaking into what looks like lots of shards of either Light or Ice, and it's this that finishes Roxas' resolve against the Organization. As less than a Nobody, however, all memories of Xion begin to fade from the minds of everyone who knew her, with even Roxas unable to keep hold of her name by the end of his fight with Riku. Interestingly, despite no longer existing even as a memory, Xion still makes two cameos in Dream Drop Distance, both times for barely ten seconds at most and both times in Sora's Inception-dream-inside-dream world in The World That Never Was, and Sora questions who she is before shedding a single tear, prompting confusion as Sora has no clue why he would be crying for this random girl.

 

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  • 11 months later...
On 4/23/2018 at 8:05 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

Just popping in, but the Ike/Mia support appears to be a complete myth. For a good while, it kept getting inserted to the pages on the wiki, but everything from IS says those two units were never meant to support.

Mia's cut supports were with Marcia and Nephenee.

While Ike had a cut support with Zihark.

I missed this comment! There was almost a world with Mia x Nephenee support. 

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I'm sad I miss this thread at it's peak. So much has been said. All I want to bring to the table I guess is that as much as I think some people knew about an Ike x Lethe shipping it didn't get traction because of me!

 

I shipped Lethe x Jill for Yuri reasons so I ended up recruiting people who knew Ike x Lethe :P: I mean if you are going to use a laguz anyways why not pair with the laguz hating beorc to see their character development?! I'm sorry everyone. I prefer yuri anyways. 

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I also like the Ike x Lethe pairing. It did make sense and was a pretty good one. Maybe just that laguz units weren't that used a lot, maybe.

Ike x Mia would been fine too. She's pretty much the first new recruit to the group and was actually recruited by his father himself, I thought he would be more curious about her. And she's the only non-original Greil Mercenary that actually joins it in RD.

PoR had some very good supports, but it still felt like some could've been done as well. For example, how Mia x Lucia isn't in the game? Mia's description of the best swordsman she hoped to best seemed exactly like Lucia. Zihark x Tormod seemed to have a lot of common, but they never discuss the laguz or something.

I think maybe if RD hadn't butchered supports, then a lot more characterization would've come out.

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It's mainly because Ike has a lot more interactions with Soren and Elincia, and so they get more attention, as well as the fact that he would be unable to have children with Lethe without her losing her laguz powers and she would never want that to happen.

I like the ship though, it's definitely better than Ike and Mia and Ike and Soren imo. I have to primarily remain an Ike x Elincia shipper though, sorry to say. xP

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4 hours ago, Lanko said:

I also like the Ike x Lethe pairing. It did make sense and was a pretty good one. Maybe just that laguz units weren't that used a lot, maybe.

Ike x Mia would been fine too. She's pretty much the first new recruit to the group and was actually recruited by his father himself, I thought he would be more curious about her. And she's the only non-original Greil Mercenary that actually joins it in RD.

PoR had some very good supports, but it still felt like some could've been done as well. For example, how Mia x Lucia isn't in the game? Mia's description of the best swordsman she hoped to best seemed exactly like Lucia. Zihark x Tormod seemed to have a lot of common, but they never discuss the laguz or something.

I think maybe if RD hadn't butchered supports, then a lot more characterization would've come out.

I like Ike x Mia but I love the idea of Ike x Laguz character for this story because the main character saying “f*** the racists” is much too strong! Since the story itself was about that hatred and racism from both sides  

 

plus adding on how perfectly their personalities fit made it even harder to ignore, imo  

 

20 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

I'm sad I miss this thread at it's peak. So much has been said. All I want to bring to the table I guess is that as much as I think some people knew about an Ike x Lethe shipping it didn't get traction because of me!

 

I shipped Lethe x Jill for Yuri reasons so I ended up recruiting people who knew Ike x Lethe :P: I mean if you are going to use a laguz anyways why not pair with the laguz hating beorc to see their character development?! I'm sorry everyone. I prefer yuri anyways. 

Okay well romance and relationships are about way more than “cute gay girls” and lesbians are much more than your fetish 

 

4 hours ago, Anacybele said:

It's mainly because Ike has a lot more interactions with Soren and Elincia, and so they get more attention, as well as the fact that he would be unable to have children with Lethe without her losing her laguz powers and she would never want that to happen.

I like the ship though, it's definitely better than Ike and Mia and Ike and Soren imo. I have to primarily remain an Ike x Elincia shipper though, sorry to say. xP

It’s  okay to have different opinions! The reason I personally don’t like Ike x Eliciana is because Ike makes it very clear that he doesn’t like being famous or considered a leader to anything bigger than his small band of friends. Him becoming King doesn’t fit him at all to me; but him and Lethe hiding out post game with Ike flying under the radar by changing his identity works very well. And is something he made hints that he’d do (part of it. Back then he didn’t need to change his name) in PoR

 

AND it brings it full circle. 

 

Gawain changes his name to Greil to avoid the fame. He moves in with his true love! 

 

Ike doing the same, changing his name to avoid game and moving in with Lethe is sooo cute 

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1 minute ago, IEatLasers said:

It’s  okay to have different opinions! The reason I personally don’t like Ike x Eliciana is because Ike makes it very clear that he doesn’t like being famous or considered a leader to anything bigger than his small band of friends. Him becoming King doesn’t fit him at all to me; but him and Lethe hiding out post game with Ike flying under the radar by changing his identity works very well. And is something he made hints that he’d do (part of it. Back then he didn’t need to change his name) in PoR

 

AND it brings it full circle. 

 

Gawain changes his name to Greil to avoid the fame. He moves in with his true love! 

 

Ike doing the same, changing his name to avoid game and moving in with Lethe is sooo cute 

Well yeah, I just wanted too share what I feel are the reasons for Elincia and Soren being the popular Ike pairings. Also, I understand that, but Ike doesn't necessarily have to have the title of king if he marries a princess. He could also have the title of Prince Consort which is more like a military leader and ambassador, I believe, rather than a monarch. Geoffrey isn't stated to be a king if he marries Elincia either, in fact. What title he has is up in the air.

And yeah, Ike and Lethe can be cute, but the fact that they can't have kids bothers me. I like imagining my favorite couples having kids. xP

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31 minutes ago, IEatLasers said:

Okay well romance and relationships are about way more than “cute gay girls” and lesbians are much more than your fetish 

Whoa....i've done myself a great disservice phrasing it in a way that allowed someone interpret my words as "fetish". Look, let me explain, when i see things in the anime world and i otherwise claim to be infatuated with it or love it, i mean it in a way that isn't a fetish or isn't sexual-ized. I know we live in a day and age where those lines get blurred and there are some bad otaku that take things to far but i don't look at all the loli dragons (like Nowi, Naah, Myrrh, Tiki, and so forth) and go "awww loli(s) are so cute. i love them" and then go and sexualize it or taking it one step further, applying that logic to real world children.

I just think it is endearing and adorable and say things like "i love them", but i just leave it at the anime world. I'm super into the fine arts (music, drawings, dance, etc) so when it comes to anime, i really love how one's presentation of a character can be so nuanced and thought out even if they are shameful characters pandering to a certain audience like Peri or Tharja. Its almost like what i really love is actually the artisti's creation and imagination. To further illustrate what i mean let me say this, i love the hell out of Tharja and even had her as my screen saver and background on my cell phone for like 3+ years but would i say yandere culture and the acceptance of it as a whole from a psychological perspective healthy or okay? Absolutely not. But leaving Tharja exactly where she is it, in the anime/game world, she is so refreshing and new and i just can't help but love it. Like Gasai Yuno from Mirai Nikki. But when that starts to fade into the real world, girls with obsessive disorders and that get jealous/clingy isn't a healthy or good thing and shouldn't be praised or coveted ESPECIALLY by otaku who have no idea what it is like for people in real life to go thru disorders or anxiety and etc. Because basically it takes trauma to make people become like that or have those problems in life and coveting/celebrating them and even sexualizing them is absolutely awful and really highlights the negative aspect of otaku culture. Peri ended up that way because of trauma (her mom was killed by a butler that wanted to keep her to himself and Peri as a child even thought all maids/butlers looked alike so she killed them and the father watched but never discouraged her because deep down he also wanted revenge for his wife being murdered. That is some serious deep psychological fucked up shit) 

Now how that all ties in with yuri/lesbian as i stated before, i say i "ship" Lethe x Jill but what i really implied and meant with my words was that i found their relationship and it's dynamic endearing and adorable. Like....ya know? Leave it to the anime world to grab some concept such as racism and hatred and then spin it and make it look cute. Because their hatred turned into understanding and acceptance. (Cause really beorc/laguz dynamic really echoes racism as in how whites/blacks are toward each other in real life. They even nailed the part about the laguz being slaves and recently being emancipated). 

I hope i cleared myself up well.....

Edited by Tediz64
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38 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And yeah, Ike and Lethe can be cute, but the fact that they can't have kids bothers me. I like imagining my favorite couples having kids. xP

Not even through adoption? I would think that's an acceptable compromise.

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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not even through adoption? I would think that's an acceptable compromise.

I would consider that (and I even made an OC who eventually ends up adopting), but I like to think Priam is canon and Ike's direct descendant. :P

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6 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Well yeah, I just wanted too share what I feel are the reasons for Elincia and Soren being the popular Ike pairings. Also, I understand that, but Ike doesn't necessarily have to have the title of king if he marries a princess. He could also have the title of Prince Consort which is more like a military leader and ambassador, I believe, rather than a monarch. Geoffrey isn't stated to be a king if he marries Elincia either, in fact. What title he has is up in the air.

And yeah, Ike and Lethe can be cute, but the fact that they can't have kids bothers me. I like imagining my favorite couples having kids. xP

Ike’s whole thing is just like his dad’s though, he really doesn’t like fame and fortune. He just wants to enjoy life his own way. 

 

Well, Lethe is proud to be Laguz but she never shows much pride in her cat form itself. She is generally caught bragging about her species accomplishments and what she can do 

imo she cane off as someone who learned to be proud of herself and who she is. 

 

Her mating with Ike wouldn’t be our if the question. Sure she’d give up her transformation, but Lethe would do something like that if it’s for somethin she thought was worth it. Ike is the reason she gave up her “Laguz only, Laguz pride!” Childish mindset after all. Besides having branded kids for Ike would be neat since he fought for the branded so hard; and fought against that hatred. 

 

But yeah I agree that Priam is Ike’s direct descendant; they actually technically confirmed it but many don’t like that. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, IEatLasers said:

Her mating with Ike wouldn’t be our if the question. Sure she’d give up her transformation, but Lethe would do something like that if it’s for somethin she thought was worth it. Ike is the reason she gave up her “Laguz only, Laguz pride!” Childish mindset after all. Besides having branded kids for Ike would be neat since he fought for the branded so hard; and fought against that hatred. 

I still simply cannot see her ever wanting to give up her laguz powers though, even to have a child. She's a warrior and is proud of that, and she can't be a warrior without her powers.

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1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

I still simply cannot see her ever wanting to give up her laguz powers though, even to have a child. She's a warrior and is proud of that, and she can't be a warrior without her powers.

I just don’t see where in her character *post racist and supremacist Lethe* that she really acts like the transformation is a huge part of her life. It would be sad to give it up but I don’t see why she wouldn’t really she respects the Beorc and their way of fighting, and is even impressed by how Ike can use a weapon that isn’t part of his body. She also trusts him enough that she works under him multiple times. 

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3 minutes ago, IEatLasers said:

I just don’t see where in her character *post racist and supremacist Lethe* that she really acts like the transformation is a huge part of her life. It would be sad to give it up but I don’t see why she wouldn’t really she respects the Beorc and their way of fighting, and is even impressed by how Ike can use a weapon that isn’t part of his body. She also trusts him enough that she works under him multiple times. 

Because being a warrior for Gallia is her, you know, very way of life? Why the hell would she ever give that up? Trusting Ike and stuff does not mean she'd be willing to give up her whole life for him.

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3 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Because being a warrior for Gallia is her, you know, very way of life? Why the hell would she ever give that up? Trusting Ike and stuff does not mean she'd be willing to give up her whole life for him.

Her life changes throughout her character arc. The Lethe that only cares about being a warrior is much more cold than Lethe by the end. 

And more importantly her entire mindset and worldview changes, as we see through her interactions with Ike and her growing to care for and trust the Beorc 

 

her story is is all about change and how a new mindset can be so much healthier and better for someone 

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3 minutes ago, IEatLasers said:

Her life changes throughout her character arc. The Lethe that only cares about being a warrior is much more cold than Lethe by the end. 

And more importantly her entire mindset and worldview changes, as we see through her interactions with Ike and her growing to care for and trust the Beorc 

 

her story is is all about change and how a new mindset can be so much healthier and better for someone 

I don't believe she ever stopped caring about being a warrior though. She invites Ike back to Gallia, but to do what? Spar. To hone their skills together. That's not someone I see being okay with giving up what allows them to do that.

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2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I don't believe she ever stopped caring about being a warrior though. She invites Ike back to Gallia, but to do what? Spar. To hone their skills together. That's not someone I see being okay with giving up what allows them to do that.

I have to agree with you Ana and i'll state why in just a sec

2 hours ago, IEatLasers said:

Her life changes throughout her character arc. The Lethe that only cares about being a warrior is much more cold than Lethe by the end. 

And more importantly her entire mindset and worldview changes, as we see through her interactions with Ike and her growing to care for and trust the Beorc 

 

her story is is all about change and how a new mindset can be so much healthier and better for someone 

I think in this situation Ana is right because as much as the supports reveal, Lethe still remains a warrior at heart and this is evident in battle Part 3 - Chapter 6 : A Reason to Fight

During the river crossing battle, Lethe ends up sympathizing with her fellow laguz and rallies them on to fight the Daien forcing despite it putting them in a tactical disadvantage. She confirms this by telling Ranulf she knows it is the sane course of action but she won't throw away her values any longer.

Then after the battle is over, she is shocked to see Micaiah as the leader of the enemy platoon and after being provoked tells her she'd rather die. I'll go ahead and see if i can insert chapter script in spoliers.

 

Here is after turn 1 ends when the battle starts

Spoiler

Lethe: Blast! We're being ambushed! Grr... Turn back! Brothers, turn back!

Gallian Soldier 1: Never!

Lethe: What did you just say?!

Gallian Soldier 2: We're the beast tribe! I'd rather die than be a coward!

Lethe: ...Fine. No pulling back. We stay here and fight to the last. All forces, attack!

This is after Ranulf confronts Lethe

Spoiler

Ranulf: Lethe, you idiot! Why won't you fall back?!

Lethe: The soldiers think that if we retreat any longer, we'd be throwing away our pride.

Ranulf: You're following the lead of some blood-crazed soldiers? You're supposed to be in charge!

Lethe: I know that retreat is the sane course of action, Ranulf. But if we run now, we'd lose the values we hold dearest in our hearts!

Ranulf: ...Fine, Lethe. As long as it's your decision, not someone else's. I'll join the others in the back and watch over Skrimir. We're counting on you

And this is post-battle

Spoiler

Lethe: Grr, I can't find an opening! If only I could find one weak point, we could break through!

Ranulf: These guys are really clever. They must have a veteran commander to use a strategy like this.

Lethe: Ranulf! But, what about General Skrimir?! Isn't he supposed to be at the back of the army?

Ranulf: You know how he is. I've got six strong men trying to keep Skrimir from coming out here.

Lethe: All right, then. We'll show these beorc a real fight. We should regroup, and...

Ranulf: Wait. Look, over there.

Micaiah: All troops, lower your weapons! I'm going to propose a cease-fire to the Laguz Alliance.

Ranulf: I've seen that black armor before. You're with the Daein army! Why is Daein attacking us?!

Micaiah: Are you the general of this army? I am Micaiah, a general of the Daein Royal Army.

Lethe: Wait, you're the one in command?!

Micaiah: My king, Pelleas, has decided to answer Begnion's request for help in fighting the Laguz Alliance. You have no chance for victory. Further bloodshed is meaningless. Please surrender while you can.

Lethe: Do not insult us, tiny beorc! We'd rather die than surrender!

Micaiah: Behind you lies the Begnion army. In front of you is the Daein army. You've nowhere to run.

Ranulf: Well, I guess we'll just have to chase you down like cattle and press on. Sound good to you, Skrimir? *Skrimir roars*

Micaiah: What in the goddess's name was that?!

So as you can see, Ana is right. Lethe hasn't let go of the warrior spirit and would rather meet death on the battlefield than be humiliated by surrendering. You can choose to interpret Lethe and her support dialogue as much as you want, but this right here is Lethe years later in Radiant Dawn. I believe if you are willing to die on the battlefield for what you believe in, you might not be so on-board with giving up fighting in the name of love (for Ike). It just doesn't add up or seem likely. At least that is how i'm going to interpret what she would likely do if faced with those two options

Edited by Tediz64
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This feels more like we’re pulling at her from one of the most heated battles in the middle of the game, and saying that should apply to her after the goddess is dead and wars as serious as this are gone for the foreseeable future. 

 

Even the ending of her support with Ranulf shows a desire for things to some day be different. 

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