Reclassing Camilla into wyvern lord. Good or not?

[Faellin]

Just wondering, how well does Camilla perform as one? I know she is one of the best characters in fates overall. But is it worth giving up magic for lances?

Also, how well does she do as a dark flier? Or is her performance basically identical to malig knight, just with lances instead?

[Michelaar]

Camilla's strength far surpasses her magic, so making her a wyvern lord is a pretty good idea.

[Shadow Mir]

5 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

Camilla's strength far surpasses her magic, so making her a wyvern lord is a pretty good idea.

Aside from this, Rally Defense far outclasses Savage Blow. So I really see no reason to stay in Malig Knight.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Wyvern Lord is nice for the Beastkiller on one or two maps if you can raise her lance rank (either via combat or Arms Scroll). But if you're just planning to class-change and forget, do note that you'll give up Trample (+5 damage against almost everything) from Level 15 Malig Knight, and WL's strength isn't so much better as to make up for this.

If I have the money/seals to pull it off I prefer to do a dip in Berserker from 11 to 15 -> back to Malig for Level 16 (netting both Trample and Axefaire) -> whatever final class strikes my fancy.

[Mandokarla]

Honestly, WL is better for her 9/10 times, BUT, It is worth either staying in, or dipping back in, to Malig Knight at 15 for Trample. It does make a significant difference, especially on lunatic. 

[Heruseus]

She does have a higher strength than magic growth, so go right ahead

Edited April 28, 2018 by Heruseus
I switched some words

[Shadow Mir]

30 minutes ago, Heruseus said:

She does have a higher magic than strength growth, so go right ahead

Erm, I assume you meant "lower" instead of "higher".

[Heruseus]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Erm, I assume you meant "lower" instead of "higher".

Shit yeah I did

[Ae†her]

Yes because her Res is still going to grow decently, and she gets more HP, Skl, Spd and Def Growth plus the boost in each stat.

[De Geso]

Growths don't matter for Camilla, guys.

Her WL bases aren't so radically different from MK to justify the change and Savage Blow is a damn good skill (where she never really wants to be using Rally Defense as she'd probably rather attack/lunge on player phase). Even if you do go Wyvern Lord go back to Malig for Trample, wow that skill is seriously overpowered. I usually vote to stay on Malig, but Lord isn't a bad idea if the lance rank matters a lot to you, and as @Dark Holy Elf said the beast killer is very useful in a couple situations.

Edited April 28, 2018 by YouSquiddinMe

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Growths don't matter for Camilla, guys.

Her WL bases aren't so radically different from MK to justify the change and Savage Blow is a damn good skill (where she never really wants to be using Rally Defense as she'd probably rather attack/lunge on player phase). Even if you do go Wyvern Lord go back to Malig for Trample, wow that skill is seriously overpowered. I usually vote to stay on Malig, but Lord isn't a bad idea if the lance rank matters a lot to you, and as @Dark Holy Elf said the beast killer is very useful in a couple situations.

I don't see what's so good about Savage Blow - it just seems like another mediocre skill on the player's side since far more often than not, the chip damage is inconsequential. I rarely hit a number of units worth mentioning with it, and cannot afford to put the user in a precarious position to do so, as opposed to the enemy, who can sacrifice anything and everything if it means taking out one of your units. On the other hand, I find Rally Defense rather useful.

[Mandokarla]

42 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't see what's so good about Savage Blow - it just seems like another mediocre skill on the player's side since far more often than not, the chip damage is inconsequential. I rarely hit a number of units worth mentioning with it, and cannot afford to put the user in a precarious position to do so, as opposed to the enemy, who can sacrifice anything and everything if it means taking out one of your units. On the other hand, I find Rally Defense rather useful.

The preference here is entirely playstyle based. Some people are more aggressive, and others are more cautious. I personally trend towards the aggressive when I play Fire Emblem, and so I think SB is a good skill for dealing with a mob. That said, I like having both skill sets because it's easy to get both. I've found that savage blow is actually helpful on Lunatic, it puts more units into reliable ORKO range for the rest of your team later on. A defensive player would prefer Rally Def, but it only costs two HS to get both skill sets, so I see no real reason not to invest those to get a Camilla that can carry you really easily. Sakura's map in particular was borderline cheesed by my Camilla with both Swordbreaker and Trample. I was at zero risk until I greeded for xp after killing Yukimura. 

Tl;dr there is value both ways.

[SoulWeaver]

17 hours ago, Faellin said:

Also, how well does she do as a dark flier? Or is her performance basically identical to malig knight, just with lances instead?

I knew making Camilla a Dark Flier on a playthrough would pay off one of these days...
This is all from personal experience, so it should be considered anecdotal and not expert opinion - your Camilla may do better or worse than mine.

Reclassing Camilla into a Wyvern Lord proved interesting the one time I tried it. She doesn't really lose any real usefulness as she isn't amazing as a Magic user anyways, and you can use the Javelin or Spear for Ranged Attacks if a non-Axe Ranged Attacker is important to you. The Weapon Triangle is the main reason I find Wyvern Lord Camilla better than Malig Knight Camilla - with Tomes, she can only defeat Axes/Clubs, which you're not going to be seeing an awful lot of on Conquest if memory serves, while she can still usually just power through using her own Axe proficiency anyways, and Bows...who in their right mind is going to be trying to use Malig Knight Camilla w/Tome equipped as an Archer slayer? Might as well use Xander since he's got the same Triangle Advantage plus added bonus of Aegis if you happen to like Aegis plus the P.R.F. Siegfried, one of my favorite ships in the whole Fire Emblem Navy. Wyvern Lord Camilla, on the other hand, has Lances, which, in addition to taking better advantage of her solid Strength than Tomes do(obviously), also give her an out to Swords if you're having difficulties taking them down with her, which Tomes don't always work as well for.

As for Dark Falcon Camilla, I'll first pull up the stat caps for it and Malig Knight in an attempt to look like I'm trying to be objective about this(spoilered for space):

Spoiler

HP - Malig Knight's 55 beats Dark Falcon's 45
STR - Malig Knight's 31 beats Dark Falcon's 27
MAG - Dark Falcon's 32 beats Malig Knight's 30
SKL - Both Classes Tie at 28
SPD - Dark Falcon's 33 beats Malig Knight's 27
LUC - Dark Falcon's 32 beats Malig Knight's 25
DEF - Malig Knight's 31 beats Dark Falcon's 26
RES - Dark Falcon's 34 beats Malig Knight's 31
BST - Malig Knight 258, Dark Falcon 257

As you can see, the two Classes are more or less even stat-wise, leaving the verdict to be based on Skills and Weapon Usage, meaning it will mostly depend on what you're going up against, ignoring Tomes because both Classes have them and the 2-point difference in MAG is negligible if you ask me. Dealing with lots of Swords and Tomes? Dark Falcon's Lances may prove the better choice. Naginatas and Daggers everywhere? Give Malig Knight's Axes a try. Of the two, I personally found Dark Falcon Camilla more useful, in large part because Galeforce - I was able several times to have her go ahead of the main group, kill one guy on her own, then proc Galeforce and come back safely, allowing me to go a little faster than on playthroughs where nobody had Galeforce as I couldn't do that and just leave someone out there in the middle of all the enemies but was trying to be very conservative with my Rescue Staves. However, that's just my experience, so it may go differently for you.

In the end, thanks to Nichol, I never felt the need not to make Camilla a Dark Falcon as I always capture Nichol due to personal preference and generally use him as my Malig Knight or Wyvern Lord, and so I recommend giving him a try for a playthrough or two.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Mandokarla said:

The preference here is entirely playstyle based. Some people are more aggressive, and others are more cautious. I personally trend towards the aggressive when I play Fire Emblem, and so I think SB is a good skill for dealing with a mob. That said, I like having both skill sets because it's easy to get both. I've found that savage blow is actually helpful on Lunatic, it puts more units into reliable ORKO range for the rest of your team later on. A defensive player would prefer Rally Def, but it only costs two HS to get both skill sets, so I see no real reason not to invest those to get a Camilla that can carry you really easily. Sakura's map in particular was borderline cheesed by my Camilla with both Swordbreaker and Trample. I was at zero risk until I greeded for xp after killing Yukimura. 

Tl;dr there is value both ways.

Most mobs are not big enough that Savage Blow would legitimately come in handy. On the contrary, I oft see that they wind up outmanned and outgunned such that Savage Blow would prove inconsequential in practice, because I can just swarm them instead. With regard to Heart Seals, there is a limited number of them for most of the game. Simply put, Savage Blow is more akin to Awakening Counter in terms of usefulness (tends to not have any notable effect, and ideally, you want to avoid being in situations where it might have a noticeable effect).

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Most mobs are not big enough that Savage Blow would legitimately come in handy. On the contrary, I oft see that they wind up outmanned and outgunned such that Savage Blow would prove inconsequential in practice, because I can just swarm them instead. With regard to Heart Seals, there is a limited number of them for most of the game. Simply put, Savage Blow is more akin to Awakening Counter in terms of usefulness (tends to not have any notable effect, and ideally, you want to avoid being in situations where it might have a noticeable effect).

In Lunatic Conquest, you can legitimately lose to certain mob formations depending on your first contact with them, so I think there is merit to Savage Blow if you're playing that. It allows you to have other fliers or horses follow Camilla's lead and get more reliable ORKOs.

[Shadow Mir]

 

3 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

In Lunatic Conquest, you can legitimately lose to certain mob formations depending on your first contact with them, so I think there is merit to Savage Blow if you're playing that. It allows you to have other fliers or horses follow Camilla's lead and get more reliable ORKOs.

That's easy for you to say. Most mobs are only 3 to 5 enemies. Not enough for Savage Blow to be worth it. Also, that's assuming that I have a good deal of flying and horse units. And I'd rather not wind up in a bad position just to try to get something out of Savage Blow.

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

That's easy for you to say. Most mobs are only 3 to 5 enemies. Not enough for Savage Blow to be worth it. Also, that's assuming that I have a good deal of flying and horse units. And I'd rather not wind up in a bad position just to try to get something out of Savage Blow.

Have you played Lunatic?

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That's easy for you to say. Most mobs are only 3 to 5 enemies. Not enough for Savage Blow to be worth it. Also, that's assuming that I have a good deal of flying and horse units. And I'd rather not wind up in a bad position just to try to get something out of Savage Blow.

I mean, 3 to 5 enemies... It still has an effect, and affecting 4 units or so is pretty good when you consider how that looks on a map. I wouldn't expect chip damage on a legion of 10 units (if they had a legion of 10 units that close to each other in CQ Lunatic, you probably fucked up)

You would have a good deal of flying and horse units on Conquest. There's Xander, Beruka, Camilla and Leo who are already super solid, and then Silas, Gunter and Peri who are slightly less solid but still can be good. You can even do reclassing with Seals if you want even more mounted units, like Paladin Jakob. You have access to plenty of mounted units with high Mov.

It's not that you're putting yourself in positions just to use Savage Blow. You're going to be putting yourself in those positions anyway, but Savage Blow makes those situations even more advantageous for you, or even open up new options sometimes, if you gain new ORKOs from the chip damage. It's a bonus, not a gameplan.

Edited April 29, 2018 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Dark Holy Elf]

Savage Blow is useful because even if it only gets one extra enemy, the 20% chip damage makes them that much easier for your other units to kill. Some of your units (Effie and Xander for instance) aren't going to double many things but at 80% a OHKO is more possible (or a one-hit-and-a-dual-strike KO). Other units with lower Str like Niles or Selena can't ORKO bulkier enemies normally but will once they're at 80% HP. etc.

Regardless, I'm not sure how this is being framed as Savage Blow vs Rally Defence. Why not both? There's very little reason to class change Camilla before Level 5 - she'll be Level 1 to 4 while she's crushing everything in her path anyway. The only reason I can see is to get started on lance rank sooner and that's not a very compelling reason for me. Get Savage Blow at 5 and Rally Defence at 6 if you want.

 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Savage Blow is useful because even if it only gets one extra enemy, the 20% chip damage makes them that much easier for your other units to kill. Some of your units (Effie and Xander for instance) aren't going to double many things but at 80% a OHKO is more possible (or a one-hit-and-a-dual-strike KO). Other units with lower Str like Niles or Selena can't ORKO bulkier enemies normally but will once they're at 80% HP. etc.

Regardless, I'm not sure how this is being framed as Savage Blow vs Rally Defence. Why not both? There's very little reason to class change Camilla before Level 5 - she'll be Level 1 to 4 while she's crushing everything in her path anyway. The only reason I can see is to get started on lance rank sooner and that's not a very compelling reason for me. Get Savage Blow at 5 and Rally Defence at 6 if you want.

 

She can make some good use of Early Lance Rank since iirc the big Lance benchmark was Ch19, although iirc the main reason to reclass her is Speed

 

But then again you can also use Wyvern Xander for that one

[henrymidfields]

In my LP, MK!Camilla acquired Savage Blow at Lv 5, then  I reclassed her to WL to get Rally Defense. Both were quite useful generally, and this was in Normal Mode.

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I mean, 3 to 5 enemies... It still has an effect, and affecting 4 units or so is pretty good when you consider how that looks on a map. I wouldn't expect chip damage on a legion of 10 units (if they had a legion of 10 units that close to each other in CQ Lunatic, you probably fucked up)

You would have a good deal of flying and horse units on Conquest. There's Xander, Beruka, Camilla and Leo who are already super solid, and then Silas, Gunter and Peri who are slightly less solid but still can be good. You can even do reclassing with Seals if you want even more mounted units, like Paladin Jakob. You have access to plenty of mounted units with high Mov.

It's not that you're putting yourself in positions just to use Savage Blow. You're going to be putting yourself in those positions anyway, but Savage Blow makes those situations even more advantageous for you, or even open up new options sometimes, if you gain new ORKOs from the chip damage. It's a bonus, not a gameplan.

You do realize that is exactly what I've been trying to say...? And why I compared Savage Blow to Awakening Counter in the first place...??

Besides Camilla, Leo, and Xander, I struggle to see most of those as a good use of a unit slot. Especially Gunter. And while seals are a valid point, there's still the limited number of them that you get for most of the game.

The problem is, unless it's clearly to my advantage to attack first, I consider it better to go fishing for mooks. Having them face me on my terms is better than charging in when I clearly have the disadvantage, no?

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Savage Blow is useful because even if it only gets one extra enemy, the 20% chip damage makes them that much easier for your other units to kill. Some of your units (Effie and Xander for instance) aren't going to double many things but at 80% a OHKO is more possible (or a one-hit-and-a-dual-strike KO). Other units with lower Str like Niles or Selena can't ORKO bulkier enemies normally but will once they're at 80% HP. etc.

Regardless, I'm not sure how this is being framed as Savage Blow vs Rally Defence. Why not both? There's very little reason to class change Camilla before Level 5 - she'll be Level 1 to 4 while she's crushing everything in her path anyway. The only reason I can see is to get started on lance rank sooner and that's not a very compelling reason for me. Get Savage Blow at 5 and Rally Defence at 6 if you want.

 

Maybe if I only had a few more units than the mob I'm trying to eliminate, but since I often have at least twice their number, most, if not all of them are going under before Enemy Phase comes along, with Savage Blow or without.

Because to be frank, I see next to no compelling reasons to hold out in a clearly inferior class for a skill that often fails to make a significant difference. Also, lances are just better than tomes for Camilla - WTA over bows means little when she wants nothing to do with them, and axes are mostly used by Oni line units, which are inaccurate and get wrecked by any sword user or mage. And that's without factoring in their using her better strength instead of her inferior magic stat.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

9 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You do realize that is exactly what I've been trying to say...? And why I compared Savage Blow to Awakening Counter in the first place...??

Besides Camilla, Leo, and Xander, I struggle to see most of those as a good use of a unit slot. Especially Gunter. And while seals are a valid point, there's still the limited number of them that you get for most of the game.

The problem is, unless it's clearly to my advantage to attack first, I consider it better to go fishing for mooks. Having them face me on my terms is better than charging in when I clearly have the disadvantage, no?

To begin with, you're considering chip damage on 3~4 units to be too little, when it's actually not. If you insist on Savage Blow not being useful unless it's hitting upwards of 10 enemies, then you are using the skill wrong and making risky plays.

Beruka is extremely solid (basically mini Camilla), and the rest of the mounted units are quite decent too. Gunter is less combat-oriented, but still worthy of fielding because he can ferry Corrin around while being a good Pair-Up bot for him/her, assuming you're not doing a mounted Corrin already. You have the unit slots anyway, and you're not only going to use Camilla, Leo and Xander. There's very little detriment to using at least two or three mounted units that aren't royals.

But then there are times when it is much more advantageous to attack first instead of baiting. Conquest is actually quite well-designed to this end, such that it's not like Birthright where baiting is the superior option 90% of the time.

Edited April 30, 2018 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

To begin with, you're considering chip damage on 3~4 units to be too little, when it's actually not. If you insist on Savage Blow not being useful unless it's hitting upwards of 10 enemies, then you are using the skill wrong and making risky plays.

Slight problem: 3-4 units is not a lot. And most enemies aggro in small groups. Also, there's this:

10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe if I only had a few more units than the mob I'm trying to eliminate, but since I often have at least twice their number, most, if not all of them are going under before Enemy Phase comes along, with Savage Blow or without.

Simply put, I'm not very inclined to think highly of skills that do more good when you're on the receiving end of them... of which Savage Blow is one.

5 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Beruka is extremely solid (basically mini Camilla), and the rest of the mounted units are quite decent too. Gunter is less combat-oriented, but still worthy of fielding because he can ferry Corrin around while being a good Pair-Up bot for him/her, assuming you're not doing a mounted Corrin already. You have the unit slots anyway, and you're not only going to use Camilla, Leo and Xander. There's very little detriment to using at least two or three mounted units that aren't royals.

A "mini Camilla" that doesn't have the speed, nor the good personal skill, nor the power (aka, most of the stuff that made Camilla good), and spontaneously combusts once mages get a hold of her. Really now? That's what I call "outclassed unit", not "mini Camilla". As for Gunter, he's only good for supporting Corrin. Granted, Corrin must always be used, but that is just not enough for me. (Incidentally, I cannot be bothered to have Corrin leave his initial class for whatever reason)

5 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

But then there are times when it is much more advantageous to attack first instead of baiting. Conquest is actually quite well-designed to this end, such that it's not like Birthright where baiting is the superior option 90% of the time.

Like when? Because I'm drawing a blank.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

21 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Slight problem: 3-4 units is not a lot. And most enemies aggro in small groups. Also, there's this:

Simply put, I'm not very inclined to think highly of skills that do more good when you're on the receiving end of them... of which Savage Blow is one.

A "mini Camilla" that doesn't have the speed, nor the good personal skill, nor the power (aka, most of the stuff that made Camilla good), and spontaneously combusts once mages get a hold of her. Really now? That's what I call "outclassed unit", not "mini Camilla". As for Gunter, he's only good for supporting Corrin. Granted, Corrin must always be used, but that is just not enough for me. (Incidentally, I cannot be bothered to have Corrin leave his initial class for whatever reason)

Like when? Because I'm drawing a blank.

3~4 units is a lot in the context that most groups of enemies are, just as you say, small groups. You're cheesing an entire group of enemies with Savage Blow by making them easier to ORKO. On Conquest Lunatic, even individual mob groups are powerful enough to put your units in jeopardy (assuming you value no deaths) in addition to other map circumstances, so they are not to be underestimated at all. Savage Blow is no broken skill like Trample, but the chip damage is helpful in expanding your options.

That's your own bias, so no comment.

"Mini-Camilla" basically means Camilla outclasses Beruka already, so I never said Beruka was as good as Camilla or anything. It's no secret that Camilla is broken and Beruka is not, but being an outclassed version of the most broken unit in the game is still quite a leg up compared to other units. By default, Wyvern Knight is basically the best class in almost every game it's in, and Fates is no exception. Her Str and Spd are definitely lacking, but her personal skill and use of Axes help patch her firepower, and her Speed can be helped with Tonics and Pair-Up. She also has really good bulk, which is invaluable in Conquest. She needs work, and her only direct and immediate competition requires zero work and planning to use, but there's not a lot of reason to not run both.

Some chapters like Cold Reception (Ice Village) require you to engage first and engage quickly to reach objectives. Others, like Rainbow Sage (the tower) and Ryoma (the duel with Ryoma) basically force you to, unless you like getting gimmicked or debuffed a lot. The former has Azama with his Hexing Rod halving bulk to make the center room harder to deal with, if he hits one of your important units, so you are encouraged to play aggressively to kill him first, since the rest of his room isn't that problematic anyway. For Ryoma, the Automatons have Spy Yumis and Lunge, so you're not even allowed to play defensive.