Reclassing Camilla into wyvern lord. Good or not?

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

3~4 units is a lot in the context that most groups of enemies are, just as you say, small groups. You're cheesing an entire group of enemies with Savage Blow by making them easier to ORKO. On Conquest Lunatic, even individual mob groups are powerful enough to put your units in jeopardy (assuming you value no deaths) in addition to other map circumstances, so they are not to be underestimated at all. Savage Blow is no broken skill like Trample, but the chip damage is helpful in expanding your options.

Which is assuming that the enemy is nice enough to gather their units together. And that I didn't have the firepower to clear them out otherwise. AND that I can even reach a position where they all get affected. Yeah... at least one of those tends to NOT be the case more often than not.

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

"Mini-Camilla" basically means Camilla outclasses Beruka already, so I never said Beruka was as good as Camilla or anything. It's no secret that Camilla is broken and Beruka is not, but being an outclassed version of the most broken unit in the game is still quite a leg up compared to other units. By default, Wyvern Knight is basically the best class in almost every game it's in, and Fates is no exception. Her Str and Spd are definitely lacking, but her personal skill and use of Axes help patch her firepower, and her Speed can be helped with Tonics and Pair-Up. She also has really good bulk, which is invaluable in Conquest. She needs work, and her only direct and immediate competition requires zero work and planning to use, but there's not a lot of reason to not run both.

I would honestly beg to differ on Wyverns being the best class in most FE games - on the contrary, I would say there are only a scant few units in said class that stand out, with one of those being in this game. And that this game is one of the only two where wyverns can claim to be among the best classes (the other one being Radiant Dawn). I would go into more detail, but then I'd be risking going off topic. Anyway, her personal skill has a little problem called being situational (requiring the opponent to be unable to counterattack, meaning it's often going to be kicking in against archers or healers, neither of which are exactly hard to off. Or if she's using a hand axe or tomahawk, which has it's own problems, that being setting her up to get doubled up on by almost everything - without Wary Fighter, at least - to say nothing of the Tomahawk having a blind spot). And her speed is just dreary. If her speed can't keep up, then her durability gets compromised too (again, excepting Wary Fighter).

2 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Some chapters like Cold Reception (Ice Village) require you to engage first and engage quickly to reach objectives. Others, like Rainbow Sage (the tower) and Ryoma (the duel with Ryoma) basically force you to, unless you like getting gimmicked or debuffed a lot. The former has Azama with his Hexing Rod halving bulk to make the center room harder to deal with, if he hits one of your important units, so you are encouraged to play aggressively to kill him first, since the rest of his room isn't that problematic anyway. For Ryoma, the Automatons have Spy Yumis and Lunge, so you're not even allowed to play defensive.

Cold Reception, I'll give you. But Rainbow Sage might not have been the best example, in my view, since dealing with Azama is optional. And the Hexing Rod has 10 range, meaning even Camilla can't fly in and take him out without extra move from somewhere. Or Azura's help, but that would likely mean endangering her. (Also, his Divine Retribution/Counter combo will polish off a melee attacker if you get unlucky and Miracle procs.) Which means, ironically, the best way to deal with him is by going through the center first. And I can see where you're coming from with Ryoma. (But personally, I like to beat the Spy Shuriken ninjas at their own game - Kagero's side of the map has two more Grisly Strike* ninjas, and I'd rather not try to have to deal with them while 3 range menaces are about and making whoever they attack lose almost all their life points. And that's on top of everything else, notably a Master of Arms with Certain Blow, Death Blow, and a Great Club.)

*Not an actual skill.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

25 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Which is assuming that the enemy is nice enough to gather their units together. And that I didn't have the firepower to clear them out otherwise. AND that I can even reach a position where they all get affected. Yeah... at least one of those tends to NOT be the case more often than not.

I would honestly beg to differ on Wyverns being the best class in most FE games - on the contrary, I would say there are only a scant few units in said class that stand out, with one of those being in this game. And that this game is one of the only two where wyverns can claim to be among the best classes (the other one being Radiant Dawn). I would go into more detail, but then I'd be risking going off topic. Anyway, her personal skill has a little problem called being situational (requiring the opponent to be unable to counterattack, meaning it's often going to be kicking in against archers or healers, neither of which are exactly hard to off. Or if she's using a hand axe or tomahawk, which has it's own problems, that being setting her up to get doubled up on by almost everything - without Wary Fighter, at least - to say nothing of the Tomahawk having a blind spot). And her speed is just dreary. If her speed can't keep up, then her durability gets compromised too (again, excepting Wary Fighter).

Cold Reception, I'll give you. But Rainbow Sage might not have been the best example, in my view, since dealing with Azama is optional. And the Hexing Rod has 10 range, meaning even Camilla can't fly in and take him out without extra move from somewhere. Or Azura's help, but that would likely mean endangering her. (Also, his Divine Retribution/Counter combo will polish off a melee attacker if you get unlucky and Miracle procs.) Which means, ironically, the best way to deal with him is by going through the center first. And I can see where you're coming from with Ryoma. (But personally, I like to beat the Spy Shuriken ninjas at their own game - Kagero's side of the map has two more Grisly Strike* ninjas, and I'd rather not try to have to deal with them while 3 range menaces are about and making whoever they attack lose almost all their life points. And that's on top of everything else, notably a Master of Arms with Certain Blow, Death Blow, and a Great Club.)

*Not an actual skill.

If you're engaging an enemy group first and not letting them engage you first instead, then yes, the formations usually are clumped together.

I mean... There's Deen in FE5, Melady and Zeiss in FE6, Heath in FE7, Cormag in FE8 (technically Vanessa as well since she goes Wyvern Knight but she half counts), Jill and Haar in Tellius, Wyvern reclasses in general... The class in general just has a tendency to have good firepower and bulk, with usually good enough Speed to go with it. Beruka is a bit lacking in the latter, but she's also in a game where there's no Weight system to make that worse, and also a game where you can just slap on a Pair-Up friend to reach benchmarks, and use Speed Tonic etc.

How you approach it is up to you, sure.

[Shadow Mir]

14 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

If you're engaging an enemy group first and not letting them engage you first instead, then yes, the formations usually are clumped together.

The key word there is "if". And I'm extremely iffy on charging in with my mounts and hoping they're enough to eradicate the threat, because they often aren't with the spotty quality of mounted units that aren't royals in this game. (Need a hint? The force of Murphy's Law is especially strong in this game.)

14 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I mean... There's Deen in FE5, Melady and Zeiss in FE6, Heath in FE7, Cormag in FE8 (technically Vanessa as well since she goes Wyvern Knight but she half counts), Jill and Haar in Tellius, Wyvern reclasses in general... The class in general just has a tendency to have good firepower and bulk, with usually good enough Speed to go with it. Beruka is a bit lacking in the latter, but she's also in a game where there's no Weight system to make that worse, and also a game where you can just slap on a Pair-Up friend to reach benchmarks, and use Speed Tonic etc.

I would honestly say Heath and Zeiss both fail to be in contention on account of coming late and underleveled. Especially Zeiss, who is nigh unusable unless you gimp Miledy by giving him the Delphi Shield. Also, neither of them turns out good enough to justify the extra work. Cormag, I would agree with, but this IS Sacred Stones we're talking about, which is nice enough to hand you the best unit in the game in the prologue. Dean, I would also agree with, but staffers are who really steal the show in Thracia. Haar comes really late in PoR, and thus only really stands out in RD. Jill comes underleveled in PoR, and doesn't exactly have bases or growths that scream "USE ME" in said game either. In RD, she's stuck with the Daein army, which gets the least amount of time to train before part 4, and has pretty bad bases for her level. Awakening is yet another loss for wyverns. Long story short, I would say wyverns often end up in the shadow of Pegasus Knights since the latter tends to come earlier than the former (also of note, the best Pegasus Knights tend to be earlygame units). The two games that are the exceptions are a game with wonky availability (Radiant Dawn) and one with two factions of classes (this one; even then, I'd argue that Malig Knight drew the short straw). And that has much more to do with Haar and Camilla being busted than anything else. Going back to Beruka, tonics and a speed pair up can help, but the former costs money, and the latter are finite, in addition to having their own downsides.

TL;DR The number of standout wyverns is a number I can count on one hand (I don't count reclassing because then you open another can of worms).

Edited April 30, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Bane]

Back to the OP's question, I find Savage Blow worthwhile to get and then you can Heart Seal to Wyvern Lord if you feel like it. You can use lances, but you're generally better off using Axes so you keep building weapon rank.

[CA Valkyrie]

I like Camilla as a Malig Knight cuz I prefer tomes over lances, and using the Bolt Axe.  I also like to dip into Sorcerer/Dark Mage to build up her tome rank and to pick up Bowbreaker and Lifetaker. 

I don't want to provoke anyone and start some longwinding arguments by saying this is the best way to do it, cuz it's not   It's just my preferences and playstyle.

[joshcja]

Late but....

Yes, it boosts all of her stats by a noticeable margin and keeps flight so WL is pretty useful midgame.

That said you absolutely want MK skills. SBlow and trample are extremely good.

Picking up Be as well for Caps/Growths/Axefaire+5hp/and not-bird is also extremely good.

[CompteSecours]

I like MaligKnight Camilla because she is the only character who can use Bolt Axe.

She can deal both physical and magic damage, it's great.

[starburst]

On three recent, separate campaigns, I tried Camilla as a
· whole-game Malig Knight,
· Malig Knight until Chapter 21 (around Level 6) then Hero (through Keaton),
· Malig Knight until Level 5 then Wyvern Lord.

Because of my gameplay --and leaving Chapter 10 aside, the only chapter where I actually use a flyer is Chapter 21 (to transport the mage who will kill the Stoneborn); on every other chapter, I am fine with no flyers (and only one or two mounted attackers.)
In my case, Camilla starts gaining levels around Chapter 14 if I want to 'unlock' Velouria as soon as possible, or around Chapter 16 otherwise; she is seldom used before (playing the role of a 'panic button.')

As a Wyvern Lord, Camilla is sturdier and defter than as Malig Knight. And Rally Defence in addition to her aura strengthens her support role.
Now, while Camilla's Resistance growth as Wyvern Lord is still high for a physical unit, giving up Magic is her biggest concession. Yes, there are better magic users in the party, but being able to target Resistance gives Camilla an important edge over other physical units. Magic provides her with a 1-2 range attack that can double, and it may be the key to defeat an enemy with powerful counter attacks (like Generals). Oh!, and the Bolt Axe is overpowered.

As a Malig Knight, Camilla would still have the same Defence as other Heroes or Paladins in the party, and would basically be as sturdy as any non-Knight or Xander can be. She would still be among the strongest units in the party and have way higher Resistance than they do.

 

In my opinion, and gameplay, I do not think that re-classing Camilla into Wyvern Lord is such an improvement. It is a good option, but she might as well be a a Hero (or a Berserker, depending on the party.)

Edited June 5, 2018 by starburst

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, starburst said:

On three recent, separate campaigns, I tried Camilla as a
· whole-game Malig Knight,
· Malig Knight until Chapter 21 (around Level 6) then Hero (through Keaton),
· Malig Knight until Level 5 then Wyvern Lord.

Because of my gameplay --and leaving Chapter 10 aside, the only chapter where I actually use a flyer is Chapter 21 (to transport the mage who will kill the Stoneborn); on every other chapter, I am fine with no flyers (and only one or two mounted attackers.)
In my case, Camilla starts gaining levels around Chapter 14 if I want to 'unlock' Velouria as soon as possible, or around Chapter 16 otherwise; she is seldom used before (playing the role of a 'panic button.')

As a Wyvern Lord, Camilla is sturdier and defter than as Malig Knight. And Rally Defence in addition to her aura strengthens her support role.
Now, while Camilla's Resistance growth as Wyvern Lord is still high for a physical unit, giving up Magic is her biggest concession. Yes, there are better magic users in the party, but being able to target Resistance gives Camilla an important edge over other physical units. Magic provides her with a 1-2 range attack that can double, and it may be the key to defeat an enemy with powerful counter attacks (like Generals). Oh!, and the Bolt Axe is overpowered.

As a Malig Knight, Camilla would still have the same Defence as other Heroes or Paladins in the party, and would basically be as sturdy as any non-Knight or Xander can be. She would still be among the strongest units in the party and have way higher Resistance than they do.

 

In my opinion, and gameplay, I do not think that re-classing Camilla into Wyvern Lord is such an improvement. It is a good option, but she might as well be a a Hero (or a Berserker, depending on the party.)

I dunno... I just am not convinced. Imho... The Bolt Axe is extremely niche, as are magic weapons in general, unless you have someone like Elise or Felicia in a physical class. Which is to say, most of the stuff I'd want to use it against are either extremely rare (Stoneborn) or get rekt by effective weaponry (Generals, Great Knights). And I'm not really seeing what Hero and Berserker have to offer that makes them worth it for her... especially since the loss of flight makes it a losing trade.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia