Twitch Plays Pokemon Mafia NOC(15p)(GAME OVER TOWN WINS)

[Eurykins]

Anyways, I'll be back tomorrow. Have a good night guys, and sorry I've been pretty inactive this day phase. :/

[Killthestory]

5 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

Anyways, I'll be back tomorrow. Have a good night guys, and sorry I've been pretty inactive this day phase. :/

you don't have to apologize for being busy lmao.

[SB.]

4 hours ago, Killthestory said:

gonna need you guys to start callin me town's savior if u want me to solve game for ya

save us elijesus 

does this count?

1 hour ago, Conqueror said:

Okay, fair enough but like...how could she have been more assertive? I don't know how Eury plays, is she normally not a cautious player who likes to weigh the possibilities? Would Eury normally go in all guns ablazing? I'm asking you because I've never played with Eury before and that's the crux of your argument here.

Imo if you're a townie you're going to feel justified when one of your scumreads got guiltied, whereas Eury became kind of stiff with how she addressed Refa afterwards. Imo if she was considering a false guilty she would have had more tailor paranoia based on my past experience with her (this sounds kind of odd, but she's done it before).

I already got corrected on the rolefish point before, but there was something Shinori did that told me the guilty was fake probably fake. It's kind of a moot point because I forgot he hid the fact that he had a sixth post.

@Orihime For the ineligible posts I was uh pretty drunk. If there's specific stuff you want me to go over and I'll try to recall them. Not sure by what you mean by us both trying to win the argument because I came out of it feeling better about Kill and don't think I was that stubborn, although I guess that's kind of hard to follow. What do you think of Ice? Also I don't really get why you think that we're buddies and I don't know if you read my response to Kill's case that you liked?

@Killthestory Which Bart posts did you think made sense? Because imo he was inconsistent in terms of reasoning and while I get the point you're tying to make, I don't really get where it applies.

Next post is a response to Eury.

[Killthestory]

@SB. no specific post. i just remember him having reads that made a lot of sense that he proceeded never to push with some reasoning i remember also made sense. i was paying attention more to the conclusions at the time.

[Conqueror]

23 minutes ago, SB. said:

Imo if you're a townie you're going to feel justified when one of your scumreads got guiltied, whereas Eury became kind of stiff with how she addressed Refa afterwards. Imo if she was considering a false guilty she would have had more tailor paranoia based on my past experience with her (this sounds kind of odd, but she's done it before).

So like...what do you mean by stiff? Can you point out the wording you're referring to here? I don't see anything in Eury's posts about a false guilty, so where did she bring that up? It looks to me like she was weighting the chance of Shinori being scum fakeclaiming vs being town with a result. Or are you saying she should have considered a false guilty more? Because Eury not considering a false guilty matches up with her thinking her scumread got guiltied, so I'm not sure why you're saying both that she should be more willing to lynch Refa for being a scumread of her and also more cautious at the same time because of tailor paranoia. I hope I'm not misinterpreting your argument here because I don't see what you're trying yo say.

@SB. Hey SB, are you town here? Tbh I'm getting pretty weird vibes off this Eury case and your Refa defense and I'm not sure if I'm getting paranoid that everyone defending Refa is scum or what. A lot of your defenses and cases here are just so meta reliant, and it's hard for me to tell how valid they are since I'm not familiar with the players (Eury, Refa). I also looked at the kts/sb interaction that just got linked on the previous page and I thought it was mildly interesting on your end because you said he was either scum taking refuge in audacity or town trying to provoke you but from what I can tell you never really tried to engage him further after responding to his paragraph about you (minus the minor exchange right above me). Like, I can see where kill is fleshing out his suspicion on you but it doesn't seem like you were proactively trying to dispel your own paranoia on him?

[SB.]

I apologise to literally everyone else for this.

47 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

Bolded (first paragraph): This comes from the fact that Refa has always remained as a secondary scum read to at least one other slot throughout this game? Please see any/all casings since D1 for this notion. The only reason why I considered swapping to Refa over, say, RAD, was the fact of a guilty claim. Which, as we all know NOW, was a fucking shitter gambit.

Yes, but he's been a consistent secondary scumread. I know that you weren't voting Refa as your top priority beforehand, but it's not like you were totally null on the Refa slot and were trying to assess his judgement.

51 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

Bolded & Italicized: Do you not remember over half of the Mafia games I have played in my entirety of my Mafia time here? More often than not, I usually scum read about 75% of the game's player base if I found cases/verifications for them. The fact that MULTIPLE people had been playing in a scummish light in this game (worse yet when the top reads started fucking flipping as town) reflects upon that fact (and if you disagree with me calling it FACT, then please look at the consensus of the majority of players who pushed said reads as well. So either we're all of one not-so-bright sheep mind, or we all got tripped up on the wrong slots for legitimate reasons.). 

You are completely missing my point here. I'm not suspicious that you had a lot of scumreads, I'm suspicious because you had all of these reads and then you came into D3 without trying to make a splash with any of them. You asked Ice one question and that was it. I'd get you not starting off the day with anything if all your scumreads had died/been disproven but you had to be prodded into giving reads at all by Conq today.

1 hour ago, Eurykins said:

Italicized: YOU (SB) were probably the only one I did not "properly" address in terms of where you stood in lynch priority. Everyone else was panned out EXACTLY how I stated, and exactly how my posts went. If you have trouble considering/following it, please read my ISO again and follow along with said read posts and such.

This is strictly referring to D3 start, not the rest of the phase. I get why the guilty would have distracted you on Day 2, but even though you seemed rushed coming into the start of D3, I would have expected some kind of impressions post beyond being mad at Shinori. I don't get your read on him while we're here btw, so what is it? Do you think he was scum pulling off that gambit? What does he gain from it? 

1 hour ago, Eurykins said:

Bolded (Second Paragraph): Athena's post had been on the page right at the start of the day phase, which is around where I stopped re-reading, so I never got around to reading or analyzing it.

You'll have to give me a bit to re-read their slots though. Work has been ass to me, and I'm also dealing with 50% hearing capacity right now with massive swelling on my right ear/side of my face due to an ear infection going rampant. Hurts like a bitch.

There were a lot of meat to D2 Athena posts though? I assume that you'd read those at least, so I would have thought you'd have something there.

Didn't know that you were sick ftr so I'm willing to cut you some slack here.

1 hour ago, Eurykins said:

First posts were due to wanting to vent towards Shinori and call him a dumbass for his goddamned gambit. Which I basically did.

Any other posts I made earlier (aside from catch up ones) had their reasons.

I get why you made the posts, I just expected that you'd have a push prepared coming into the day, or at least some kind of questions about why people did certain things beyond being really mad at Shinori.

1 hour ago, Eurykins said:

The bolded feels like the majority of the "issues" on my slot currently. And since that's the case, let me clearly elaborate/explain exactly where my brain was in the past day phase and why I reacted the way I did/had.

> This is my first real reads/casing post with a Priority List. At this point, it stood as Randa > Refa, as the top two people pinging me at the time. Moving on.

> Much Longer Reads/Catch up Post with Priorities  Randa = Evan > Athena = Refa. Explanations of the reads/why I read them as such are in the post. Moving on again.

> Next Reads Post Below is exactly what I posted wrt Priorities:

1 hour ago, Eurykins said:

In light of that, please explain to me why I would've had "MORE FIRE" in my response to Refa being claimed as scum guilty when I had other parties that I wanted dead before his slot for the ENTIRETY of this game. Because if that's REALLY what's making you guys scum read me- the reaction wrt fake Refa guilty, then that's pretty shaky as fuck logic when everything I've said and posted so far this game has explained where my brain is with my reads and where I've been holding people.

(putting these two together because my answer is related).

Yeah but... you were scumreading Refa ("still highly pinging me") and that's the point I'm trying to make. If you scumreaded the slot I would have expected more of a behaviour based analysis on Refa's reaction to Shinori's guilty at the time, but your primary focus was on role and "Shinori not having a reason to lie". I agree that he didn't, but it's a very impersonal way to address a scumread that you've been keeping all game imo. I'd expect you to address Refa's actual reactions, which you didn't really beyond disliking his hesitance to divulge if there was more info on his roleclaim.

[SB.]

tl;dr: I don't think Eury understood my case on her. I'm bothered by her reaction to the Refa guilty not looking like town getting confirmation on a strong scumread, and also that her entry to D3 was so lackluster. I'm willing to let her off for the latter a bit though because she was sick, if her reads post is good (skimmed before and it looked okay?) I'm probably going to switch back to Bart and give her some more time.

[Baldrick]

39 minutes ago, Killthestory said:

i'd also like to imagine scum refa would be a lot more passive. he was passive in the early game, but i think he still pushed his reads and make genuine thoughts in a way where the passivity wasn't from an entirely scum mind. his day 2 read good to me, the guilty especially, and i haven't been too attentive to d3, really. just really don't feel refa as scum anymore.

D1 Refa at least was on Evan, who flaked. D2 Refa had bigger posts (I know it was anarchy, but his first post of D2 had as much content as his entire D1), but he was even more passive regarding pushing a counterwagon to Randa. I vaguely alluded to it before, but I think Refa knew that Shinori didn't actually have a guilty and so his reaction is NAI.

[Conqueror]

3 minutes ago, SB. said:

tl;dr: I don't think Eury understood my case on her. I'm bothered by her reaction to the Refa guilty not looking like town getting confirmation on a strong scumread, and also that her entry to D3 was so lackluster. I'm willing to let her off for the latter a bit though because she was sick, if her reads post is good (skimmed before and it looked okay?) I'm probably going to switch back to Bart and give her some more time.

Okay but if you're so convinced by your Eury case why do you want to let her off the hook so easily? We already know she was busy/sick, hasn't she been saying this for a while? What's so good about her reads post (which is only preliminary from what I saw anyway) that you want to switch back to the guy who hasn't posted all day?

Help me out here SB, I'm getting jitters.

@Magnificence IncarnatePlease prod/replace the Bartozio/Ice Sage slots. What is happening with them, are they still in the game?

[SB.]

@Conqueror, the stiffness is things like

"Kind of doesn't make things seem any better IMO? "

"Shinori's claim to your guilty only seals the deal for me, and your claim does nothing to change/rectify the view on your slot. "

To me it read like she was trying hard to justify Refa being scum without really giving him a foothold to argue, so the stiffness was because it didn't feel like a natural push given the circumstances.

Idk if she considered it as a fake guilty but it sounded like "trust Shinori 100%" wasn't her immediate reaction and so naturally fake guilties would be one of the alternatives that spring to mind. I don't know if I'm overstating meta here, but I remember thinking that Eury doubting an info result in a previous game was scummy, and then it turned out that we were both town and she was just genuinely very cautious after a game where her cop result got messed with. It left a pretty strong impression on me so not seeing that kind of worry here was kind of unexpected.

I'm less enthusiastic on voting Eury because I knew about the busy part but not the sick, and being sick means that you probably aren't thinking straight beyond the stuff that's right in front of you so I can see why she wouldn't refer back to previous days much beyond being mad at Shinori. It could come from scum, and I think the other half of my case still holds, but it's enough to push her below Bart now because she typed the response at you pretty fast so I think that it was either her natural reaction or she was already working on something before and was going to give it up before being prodded. It's not a strong post but I can see Eury making it as either alignment.

##Unvote
##Vote: Bartozio

My read on KTS this game was:
-null, can't really read into posts, because there wasn't a lot there
-the way they meshed with via seemed town
-they were kind of a non-factor in democracy so I was worried I was giving them a pass
-didn't see the town benefit of voting me and not actually influencing the lynch unless they wanted to make a point, but then they hadn't even spoken about me
-got to talk with them and i felt like the way they addressed me was more in line with town pushing a scumread over scum pushing a townie
-no longer really suspicious of the slot again

Also I uh... kinda thought that there was more being said at the time tbh, but I think my initial town reaction to his posts there was because I don't think he cared about how he looked in his push. It looked like he was trying to figure me out properly but didn't get too tied down by it and still did other stuff on the side.

[SB.]

To make the last part clearer, I don't think Kill was trying to make a big deal out of his push on me and make himself look good. It looked more like he was investigating a suspect.

[Bluedoom]

Both have been prodded,  in search of subs as of now. 

[Iris]

THE RETURN OF VOTAL BOT SIRI 3.0
Bartozio (3): athena_57, Killthestory, SB
Refa (2): Conqueror,  Baldrick
Eurykins (1): Refa
Ice Sage (1): Shinori

Not voting: Bartozio, Eurykins, Jaybee, Ice Sage, Orihime

Day 3 ends in ~30 hours. With 12 alive, it takes 4 to lynch at deadline.

[Athena_57]

9 hours ago, Orihime said:

<In response to my action failed thing>

 1) What type of action is it you’re claiming failed here?

<On my case on Bart>

(Consider this a dif post) I’m not going to quote athena’s case on bart but while I disagree with it it feels like it took time and comes from town a lot of the time trying to find scum. The main problem I have with the read itself is I don’t really find coasting scummy it’d be a good slot to invest/vig but wasteful lynching on coasters

4) I will admit I do this myself “reads coming later” and then never post out of being lazy ha bit bias here

Are you asking me to roleclaim? Cause that's not going to happen. If you are, why do you feel the need to do so?

It's not just him coasting, it's him coasting but at the same time posting filler, consensus readlist and stuff. Reads like him trying to maintain a presence without contributing.

 

9 hours ago, Orihime said:

<On my question to Ice about my case>

2) Why did you ask Ice out of everyone on the playerlist

Ice Sage is a slot that during this game has had a tendency of dropping by, listing a bunch of  uncertain reads and leaving without talking to people/questioning. They do however respond to questions for the most part. Therefore, I've been trying to ask them questions on stuff some times in order to get a grip on whether they're new!town or new!scum. Basically, they don't really talk/explain unless prompted to do so.

 

@Shinori When I said I didn't like your Ice Sage vote I was mostly surprised you spent your time walling on Ice Sage when most of the stuff in there was basically common knowledge and like, why spend your time walling someone you're not going to lynch when there's lynch candidates you still need to read. Sure, there was new stuff in there (the sudden swap between nullreading everyone==>having a list of scum) , it's nice to have it all in one place, I'm not trying to discredit your wall, but is that really a priority right now?

@Eurykins The reason I sheeped the case on you and had you as secondary scumread was because whilst I could understand you losing motivation through the fake guilty and stuff, I was half expecting waking up to a Eury wall D3 and instead I got the Shinori conversation. This especially bothered me because you had been throwing shade at me "Athena hasn't moved", "he keeps pinging me", etc. without actually talking to me after D1 iirc? However, I was unaware you were sick at the time, which explains it. Moving you down on the scumread-priority list, but I'd still like to know where you stand on me currently and if you're scumreading me I'd like you to engage me on it.

 

[Shinori]

16 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

 

@Shinori When I said I didn't like your Ice Sage vote I was mostly surprised you spent your time walling on Ice Sage when most of the stuff in there was basically common knowledge and like, why spend your time walling someone you're not going to lynch when there's lynch candidates you still need to read. Sure, there was new stuff in there (the sudden swap between nullreading everyone==>having a list of scum) , it's nice to have it all in one place, I'm not trying to discredit your wall, but is that really a priority right now?

In my personal opinion that wall didn't take that much effort.  Ice doesn't have much there.  Putting it forward just helps us out.  I would be fine lynching the slot today realistically but I also understand the logic that was stated to me so I'm willing to wait if needed.

@EurykinsYou gonna need more than a gut read on me to lynch me.  Scumnori isn't getting fear lynched. Kappa.

[Athena_57]

Fair enough, it was more surprise than anything else tbh

[Eurykins]

Just woke up, a bit groggy and in pain, and hungry. Will start doing some re-reading while I get some noms. Might take a bit to get everything down though, so please bear with me.

[Shinori]

Gonna start my ISO stuff so I'll probably post again within an hour or 2 with big posts.

Might make smaller posts in between if other people talk at all.

[Ice Sage]

On 5/18/2018 at 4:11 PM, athena_57 said:

On that note, @Ice Sage, what do you think of my case on Bartozio? Please be specific on what you agree/disagree with.

Your case is good. I haven't seen him push much, if at all. He was arguing against you about the evan wagon, but it looked like he was pretty adamant on voting randa/rad so i don't know why he was going in like that to you.

On 5/18/2018 at 7:26 PM, Refa said:

 

@Ice Sage Your position on my slot is unclear, earlier you said you were suspicious of me but then later on you said that cleared and I'm not sure why.  Please explain.

You were defending yourself good. yes, you were demotivated at first, so not seeing you post much at the beginning of D2 had me a little suspicious, but that cleared away once you started explaining against Conqueror. you have your own reasons for switching your randa vote to evan. and it wouldn't change much since we were all scumreading him. Haven't seen the other games, but i don't think Scum!you would be doing this.

On 5/19/2018 at 7:21 AM, Conqueror said:

@Ice Sage Can you explain what you find fine about Refa's explanations? I'm just wondering where you are right now since you've had only a few major suspicions every day and it's incredibly difficult to see what you're thinking or where you're going. It's nice that you're rereading but what are your preliminary thoughts?

I don't think scum!refa would be going this far on defending himself. like before he wasn't posting much, but seeing all this I think he's town. I also think now that RAD was found town, I can see why he is going far to not get mislynched.

Thoughts for now I'm with Athena on bart's case, and think Refa is town.

I have been playing nervously yeah. at least for the other days I didn't know if i was making the right moves on finding scum reads.

I think that's all. if i missed any other questions towards me please tell me.

[Jaybee]

Pertinent questions post-D2:

1. rad why

2. How do Athena's reads change now that it turns out RAD was town? Does this still mean the Evan wagon was scumdriven? If so, who are the main drivers?

3. @Shinori since it turns out players... did just vote TownEvan over TownRanda, how did that come about? And do you think scum intent can be figured out from it?

4. is refa a white knight

5. Townread SB for his reaction to RAD's claim, I think scumSB sees persuader, votes RAD and leaves.

 

Page 20 (Conq, Shinori)

Spoiler

On 17/05/2018 at 10:58 PM, Conqueror said:

Oh wait deadline is soon? Wtf?

KTS's response to Shinori's gambit makes sense if he and Refa are buddies. I normally wouldn't post conspiracy shit like this but time is running out and I haven't had time to reread both of them. If RAD flips town then I don't like the way they appraoched the wagon.

 

On 18/05/2018 at 11:21 PM, Conqueror said:

@Killthestory Hey man, you've fallen off pretty hard since D1 and it looks kinda bad. I don't like to go back on my early townreads that much so if you're town here I want to get you back in the game. What's up? 

Conq's varying treatment of Refa and KTS is kind of... jarring? He's already shown earlier in the game that he can come up with a case on a secondary scumread (Athena) and vote somebody else (RAD). Why doesn't he do it here?

 

On 19/05/2018 at 12:04 AM, Shinori said:

Someone should call out Eury for wasting a post on a shit post responding to me claiming my gambit. - Same with KTS, if you didn't like the gambit complain about it it your next actual post instead of just wasting your LAST post to bitch about it. Seriously. though I need a band of hoothoots to hit KTS cause that's totally what I woulda done last day phase.

"Not interested in lynching Refa without a claim from Shinori." - Baldrick
WAT?  I POTENTIALLY COULDN'T POST ANYMORE THOUGH?  Not sure if I like this comment at all.  If it was serious vs if it was a joke.

I think Shinori is reading too much into Baldrick's post, I wouldn't be surprised if Baldrick just casually forgot that there was a post limit on D2.

Shinori, did you think what Eury and KTS did with their posts was scummy (wasting posts = wasting content)? And, like... owls are special animals, man. Harry Potter only ever had one Hedwig.

 

Page 21 (Athena, Eury, Ice)

Spoiler

On 19/05/2018 at 12:37 AM, Ice Sage said:

Refa yes. I think Refa is fine now. Elemina I'm still weary though because of the flip. I think its scummy

why is refa ok

FTR on the Mack/Elemina/Orihime slot. His Evan>Randa vote on D1 would have looked super super bad if RandaRad flipped scum. That doesn't mean it's fine since Rad was town; it's still scummy because of the numbers situation that I fleshed out in my earlier post. I haven't read anything from Orihime at this point, I saw the Conq/Refa thunderdome and wanted to die.

---

There's something about Eury's reaction to Shinori that irritates me. Like there's no real need or reason for it and it doesn't contribute anything. Maybe it makes it look like she has more content??? But I don't think this is something ScumEury does???

---

Hardcore mind meld with Athena's Bart case. 

---

On 19/05/2018 at 1:28 AM, athena_57 said:

After Randa flip I had to take some time to think on all of my reads. At some point I started getting paranoid and reading Shinori/Baldrick defending me against SB so early as them attempting to pocket me, but after rereading most of Shinori's stuff I stand by my town read. Rereading Baldrick made me loosen my initial townread, I suppose I was mostly confirmation biasing on that. FTR he's still leaning town, just not as firmly anymore.

Scumreading Refa still, his Randa defense makes way more sense as a TMI read to be honest, his Randa talk feels like white knighting now and he makes sense as a buddy for Bartozio, considering Bart's repeated Refa defenses.

Athena, did you ever say why you're townreading Baldrick? Open to anyone else who's townreading Baldrick.

On 19/05/2018 at 1:34 AM, Jaybee said:

@everyone: do you think scum intent/alignment can be gleaned from the way one used their anarchy posts, and if so, examples?

this got ignored and conq asked me to answer my own question lol

I think it can be a mild scumtell but it's also super dependent on the player's posting meta. Like I don't think it's going to be useful to catch someone like KTS who likes to shortpost and spampost but it might be helpful for someone like Eury. Speaking of her, I understand where she's coming from with her defence of her post usage, I think that's OK. The other person who I disliked was Baldrick who seemed to ask a lot of questions and not say too much about his own reads...?

On 19/05/2018 at 1:50 AM, Ice Sage said:

I'm fine with Refa after looking back at his posts. I was always unsure, but at least for now his explaining makes me feel comfortable on not lynching. When it comes to mack/elemina now I think i got it wrong. I'm really not sure anymore. i need to look at more info.

Now that Rad was also town I honestly don't know on reads. I'm going back to reread.

Wasn't around much yeah.

hahaha what

 

Page 22 (Conq, SB)

Spoiler

On 19/05/2018 at 3:58 AM, Conqueror said:

The 3 pepole you mentioned are pretty null for me. Bart is the most likely scum of the three to me but I need to read him. I looked at Eurys posts briefly and they seemed fine, if a little narrow. Interested in where they go for today but jll look over them later again. Elemina is a nonpresense. Macks posts didn't swing me either eay and neither does eliminas oe post. I don't think they're scum if refa is.

Imo if you're actually scum reading all 3 of these people you're making lazy reads.

fight me

What makes Bart/Eury/Mack different from the way people were consensus scumreading Evan (I don't think you were in-game yet though) and RAD? And by lazy, do you mean scummy?

On 19/05/2018 at 5:11 AM, SB. said:

@Conqueror Were you saying “fuck this not another dumb reaction test in response to Shinori”? because ai thoutht younwere saying that younwere impressed by it. I guess I coulf bave tonally misread you but I’d like claritication here.

I don’t think demotivated fights Shinori here. I think he just gives up based on past games and shitposts, especially when he can’t even interacg with 5/5 post Shinori. His reaction is good because of conviction, and I’vd never seen schm resct to the spotlight like thst, no matter who it is.

Wrt being worried by you: I mostly want clarification here and the ability to talk over rrwds with you because that wws my main way of working out your alignment in the past. I don’t have a strong grasp on yourbmeta becahse I think I’ve only played Mirai anikki ans that nightmsre PX gsme with you being scum in (fuck reflexive jailkeeper btw) and thise were a long time ago and its easier to post townie looking stuff on a sub and harder as it gets later. Also yeah being totally different to you readswise is kind of jarring.

I feel like all of those people are scummy for gamestate reasons. This game kind of echoes P5Mafia in terms of feel, where scum laid back and let town eat themselves for the fitst few days and tjen got rolled. Imo scum would sit back on D1 if town/town wagons were a thing because they have no reason to push elsewherte as well, why avoid perfectly good townlynches?

I believe you're implying that Bart and Elemina are scum for playing like this, based on your previous drunkposts. Who else is?

 

I promise I've not read any of Orihime's posts on KTS prior to this.

KTS' read on Refa

Spoiler

On 17/05/2018 at 10:29 AM, Killthestory said:

refa, reading over the game, picked it up much in a way i'd expect from a demotivated wolf. not much day presence, and his wolf bros were probably gettin on his case. needing to make reads and content, he stepped into the thread, probably skimmed, and made surface level reads. everything he's said here has been so safe compared to town him, but i read earlier i can't use meta if i don't know how ppl play as both alignments. whatever, fuck you, i'm going balls deep. his reads aren't crazy, his contents ok, and his lack of desire to play is reminiscent of my own. that's the problem. everything is ok when refa's general demeanor even shows he's a strong player. 

This is from Day 2.

On 19/05/2018 at 5:35 AM, Killthestory said:

i don't think scum fake demotivation.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 5:46 AM, Killthestory said:

i think if scum can help it, they usually go for motivated townie. being demotivated always puts you in the loe  so refa being demotivated shouldn't be used as points against him. it can even be argued it's in his favor.

So is Refa town or scum???

Your first post comes in the middle of the entire Guilty Gambit thing, and you suspected Refa earlier D2 also. So fine, you're scumreading Refa D2, before and after Shinori's fakeclaim. Then start of D3, you say that "Refa is too consensus to care for pushing" which... honestly, I don't get what it means, but after this you've stopped pushing Refa entirely and chosen to focus on Bart, while defending Refa instead in future posts.

On 19/05/2018 at 5:57 AM, Killthestory said:

refa seems like the kind of guy to deepwolf to victory. i think it's leaning in refa's favor, but i won't use either or for him just like i'd expect everyone else not to either. i personally think his content is good, and when i pushed him, he responded appropriately. everyone has a massive hard on for lynching him, and i think wolves are happiest about it considering refa can be really strong town.

k so i'm on a computer let's get ready to rumble. 

 

On 19/05/2018 at 6:33 AM, Killthestory said:

no, my expectations of what his scum play would probably look like is a lot higher than i think you realize, and that's why i support the argument that he isn't just "demotivated scum" as i was telling you earlier. 

but you didn't like his content... what changed? cbf to quote the rest of the posts, but it's all defence.

I want to see an explanation on why and how you suddenly went from "Refa is demotivated scum" to "yea dis boi town".

 

KTS v SB

Spoiler

Spoiler

On 19/05/2018 at 2:25 AM, Killthestory said:

there's a lot of deepwolves running around for this shit.

sb i think is a wolf. i don't believe a lot of his reads, and i think his intention is to be deep rather than survive. elemina not being pushed at all since the game has started makes him a good wolf candidate. ice sage, i dont even care about anymore, same with refa. those guys are too consensus to care for pushing. 

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:33 AM, SB. said:

also kts’s rwad on me is bad but i’ll addrss it when imsober ynless he specific shit to run at me now because selfdefense is effort

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:36 AM, Killthestory said:

this is a good example of a disingenous argument from scum SB. he's been making these all game.

"i don't know his process, but the read is still bad." i did this last game as a wolf.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:40 AM, SB. said:

its bad necause your read dowsnt have aprocess. if you thougnt i was scummy d2 you would have pushed it but instesd you dropped me d1 and picked it back up again with no explanation.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:42 AM, Killthestory said:

my vote was on you at the end of d2.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:44 AM, SB. said:

you didnt say shit about me iirc and that was never going to get me lynchedb

why post thst unless you wer trying to make a statment?

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:46 AM, Killthestory said:

in my pm to the mod my reason to make the vote was, "to make a statement."

idk, are you gonna try to push this back on me and accuse me as scum, or are you just gonna sit here discreditting how i've been viewing the game? i'm cool with both.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:50 AM, SB. said:

i found you totally unmemorable on rerrwd adide from evan pusj so i want to get your read on me more now partly bc its annoying and parly bc i cant see why you would vote tbwt was as eirjtt align when i think about it.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:52 AM, SB. said:

like idont know if you’re scum taking refuge in audacty or town trying to provoke me with the vote (both ar possible) so talk to me with spefitics

 

On 19/05/2018 at 2:55 AM, Killthestory said:

how about you pick one and figure out which scum agenda you want to push before responding to me, okay?

 

On 19/05/2018 at 3:00 AM, SB. said:

my read on you has generwll been closer to town town (even now i think its more likely tk be town not scare) but the gou disappear forever so i get paranoid and cant sooidly it. i want you to detail why hou dint like my pushes so i can stop worrying about youndoing similar shit to last hame with coasting after being townread.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 3:13 AM, Killthestory said:

i'm not sure why you think i've been coasting when day 1 i played where i could, and day 2 i reached max posts. i can understand the paranoia, but it's been a pretty different situation.

i've been phoneposting, and i just wanted to get my thoughts out. i'll explain later.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 5:11 AM, SB. said:

@Killthestory fmpov it’s hard to tell the differrn ce between both gams bcwuse I can’t tell your rl situation and I don’t think you reall went in depth on anything D2 or tried hard to influence anything.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 5:12 AM, SB. said:

got off track with conq but please explain your thought process on d2 witn more detail @Killthestory now that you have more posts.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 5:19 AM, SB. said:

I get you being busy but it feels like you’re trying to wvoid my push without really addressifn it which makes meanxious anout you.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 5:57 AM, Killthestory said:

it means that i was struggling to make a larger post with all my thoughts compiled because it was finals week, and i was lazy. here, i can just post my thoughts free form, so it's a lot easier for me to maintain presence on democracy days. 

 

On 19/05/2018 at 6:08 AM, Killthestory said:

my poe is based off dragging out people i think are town or leaning town. i think i have a wolf located somewhere in my reads, but that's cool. then, i looked it over, and i went, "who is likeliest to be able to push mislynches like these while also staying alive and being a deepwolf?" i came up with bart, sb, and jaybee, and then i added in ice and elemina.

for sb, his play isn't decidedly wolfy. i like the way he structures his content, and i actually appreciate his style. however, the way he responds to people, and how he's come to his reads really, really bugs me. his early athena push was like, almost objectively wolfy. athena played almost nothing like they did last game as a wolf, and there jokeposting and response to SB felt perfectly reasonable and townie. what does sb do? he starts pushing athena for being "nervous." athena was nowhere NEAR nervous as she was last game, and sb never really relented. it felt like such an awkward process and roundabout way of hitting athena, too, when he started asking her questions and sorta pressuring her. i totally wasn't convinced, but i was going to give it time because i was looking at other people i found wolfy.

his other content in relation to that wasn't the most memorable to me, i'll be honest, and i've still got to get the general gist of what's bugging me so much about him. the way he tiptoes around people, including me, especially when i started to pressure him felt so obviously trying to stay obscure and out of people's sights. like, it didn't feel he was interested in solving my alignment or me but rather trying to find ways to shoot it down and make himself seem townier in the process. that sort of feels like his general play where his reads are kind of out there in a super bad way with process that looks like it's just there to be there. i'm not fully convinced there, having similarly waffled that read all game. that's why i'm on bart.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 9:15 AM, SB. said:

just realised that i forgot to respond to kill earlier but i dont think i have that much to say. honestly i did not follow last game that closely because >200 pages even though i was the host, but still this shit is from trying to break out of RVS. 

can’really say anyrhing on the unmemorable front but i dont think i’ve avoided people who’ve suspected me. generally i’ve used it to get better reads on them (refa, you) and if you don’t see it that way then idk I’ve been trying to get things out of you and until now you hadn’t given me like anything to work with. also i dont think my reads are scattered except maybe today but uhh i blame alcohol for that one.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 9:33 AM, Killthestory said:

honestly i don't remember my past argument, but i don't think the points you addressed were apart of it.

idk, let's just lynch bart. i think that's a hit, and elemina is probably a 50/50 chance hit, too. 

 

most underwhelming thunderdome ever

I don't like how KTS just suddenly dropped his SB case??? Like he went from saying how SB is likely wolfy and being disingenuous to... forgetting his past argument? What? I thought you were sure of your reads and that you were going to push them far harder? It looks super bad that in his large post, he gives excuses for not pushing SB and giving him so many outs to explain his behaviour, as though he realised that there wasn't very much to push - then when SB decided to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KTS managed to escape from the dome. And again, this change in mindset isn't rooted in the way that SB responds to him during D3, or a prior explanation of his actions, but it reads like KTS gave up on a losing fight.

 

Also, isn't this the same argument against Orihime that you used on SB to call him scummy?

 

Page 23 (Conq, Shinori)

Spoiler

On 19/05/2018 at 4:53 AM, Conqueror said:

Actually the more I think about it, the more I think refa's reaction to the guilty was bad. I have no idea why people think it's remotely town. Refa had just cased shinori, putting him as his #1 scum read with quote "obvious scum intent". And his reaction to Shinori claiming a guilty on him in his last post of the day is not "lynch this lying scumbag" but "lol I guess we're both town". @Refa, can you explain why you changed your mind so easily on Shinori' alignment? I could understand it if you weren't strongly scum reading him before, but you were. And as someone who has had a fake guilty claimed on them before, your turnaround just felt too fast for me to be believable. Why couldn't scum Shinori have faked a guulty on you and then used some sort of excuse to get away with it the next day? Logically it would be unlikely yeah but when someone claims a guilty on you you're not going to be in a logical mood.

Apologies if you addressed part of this yesterday but I can't read extensively right now and i don't remember what you did after the fake was revealed.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 5:51 AM, Shinori said:

Specifically here let me ask you something conq.

IF I faked a guilty on you at 5/5 in that situation how do you think you would react?  I ask this because here's a couple of different scenarios, I'll explain them from refa's PoV since this is the thing that actually happened.

Town!Refa sees me claim a guilty on him - Town!Refa just votes me for lying and doesn't think about the things that happen.

Town!Refa sees me claim a guilty on him - Town!Refa questions "Would scum really trade 1 for 1 on day 2?" (There answer is no)

Scum!Refa sees me claim a guilty on him - Scum!Refa stops talking so town get's NO more information or help to linking to his buddies. (This is probably the optimal play if Refa was actually scum.

Scum!Refa Sees me claim a guilty on him - Scum!Refa tries to fight back claiming it's false even though I've claimed 5/5 posts having been used.  If I was actually claiming a guilty on him at 5/5 posts Reaf would have been lynched no matter what Refa actually said so this is a pointless play.

Looking at the above options we already know the bolded is what happened.  Logically speaking Refa is feeling a lot better for me and until further notices I'm basically not going to vote him.  Scum!Refa doesn't react the way he did unless he's buddy with Rad(who was town lul) or they role copped and tracked Rad on the same night and KNEW I had more than 5 posts.

You are gonna have to argue how/why Scum!Refa does what he did when it would make no logical sense as scum.

 

On 19/05/2018 at 5:58 AM, Conqueror said:

@Shinori

I agree with the logic you laid out for your options but I think you missed one.

Scum!Refa sees guilty. Knows he can't win 1v1 with you. But doesn't want to throw in the towel either. So he points out a scenario where you could both be town so he isn't instalynched, and moves to the second suspect on his lynch listm

I'm saying this because this is the kind of play I'd make as scum here. Am I really the only one? 

I'm not discounting the idea of town!refa acting like he did, but I want to hear it from refa himself. 

 

On 19/05/2018 at 6:06 AM, Shinori said:

In that situation though he's either gonna start having to spew or he's gonna end up giving info/reads that town can use in the future.  Like if he's bound to die (Unless he thinks I'm spouting a massive amount of BS) why does Scum!Refa say things that potentially give town more information.  Any interactions he would have with other people after that point in time could look bad for his buddies or good for townies.

Also I think his role is more likely to be town as he can normally use it towards the end of the phase (Assuming he can do it once each anarchy phase.) and we can make sure scum aren't trying to pull anything cheeky while also being able to know who's voting who and where.

Actually. Is Refa's role OP as town if scum don't know it exists? The anonymous vote aspect of Anarchy is incredibly scum-sided, so if you give town a role that negates the scumbenefit and potentially turns it into a weakness... isn't it a little sick if Refa just sends in his action like 5 seconds before the end of phase and he happens to catch the entire scumteam turboing someone?

On 19/05/2018 at 6:20 AM, Shinori said:

I was wary of Conq/Rapier but I think I'm getting some town vibes from Conq's posts and his weird Refa tunnel at the moment.

I don't see why Scum!Conq would push/tunnel Refa like this when logic dictates that Refa is more likely gonna be town because of the reaction, at least in my eyes.

I don't like this argument for Town!Conq. Don't like that you're townreading the concept of pushing ScumRefa as though it's such a bad move that scum wouldn't do it.

Aside from this, I like this entire exchange. Both of them make sense.

 

pausing/stopping here for now. the conq/refa thunderdome made me want to die.

[Jaybee]

hahahaha holy shit i had to fill in a captcha to post

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Time to catch back up woo

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Don’t have anything quote worthy on page 25 but I get uneasy vibes with Bart not in a “scummy” way but a “this feels weird” way, like they’ve been cased and all that fun stuff and they almost seem like a consensus scumread besides maybe 1 person I’ve seen townread them? In a game with 3 scum with the off chance of 4 with no counter wagon from what I’ve seen it makes me feel scum are fine with the game state. I don’t wanna vote Bart today.  

[Shinori]

There is most likely 4 scum in this game.

Does that change your thoughts at all @Orihime

[Athena_57]

3 minutes ago, Orihime said:

Don’t have anything quote worthy on page 25 but I get uneasy vibes with Bart not in a “scummy” way but a “this feels weird” way, like they’ve been cased and all that fun stuff and they almost seem like a consensus scumread besides maybe 1 person I’ve seen townread them? In a game with 3 scum with the off chance of 4 with no counter wagon from what I’ve seen it makes me feel scum are fine with the game state. I don’t wanna vote Bart today.  

Them not being defended is a fair point, I'm getting a bit paranoid myself (and I was (one of) the first on the wagon), but there have been counterwagons? Refa has had some votes, same with Eury.