Twitch Plays Pokemon Mafia NOC(15p)(GAME OVER TOWN WINS)

[Shinori]

7 minutes ago, Snike said:

1.Shinori- Mob Boss. He even was threatening to send a team after someone earlier.

Quote

 

Shinori

Shinori, ruler of the mob,

 

Lul

[Iris]

THE RETURN OF VOTAL BOT SIRI 9.0
Bartozio (6): athena_57, Killthestory, SB, Refa, Shinori, Snike
SB (2): Conqueror, Orihime
athena_57 (1): Bartozio
Refa (1): Baldrick

Not voting: Eurykins, Jaybee

Day 3 ends in ~10.25 hours. With 12 alive, it takes 4 to lynch at deadline.

[Killthestory]

not the worst wagon in the world

[Snike]

I swear to Helix that was not intentional.

I think tying you and refa together after d2 was kind of bad from either alignment because I don't think scum actively busses scum like that in lightkeeper and 1 for 1 on day too is not a good trade for scum.

I will say that I'm thinking about it though because paranoid town does 180 like that. My issues are w/ her tone though which is why I'm still in the eury's scum camp all the same.

[Shinori]

Okies. I'm off for the night. I need to be up in 5 hours.  Or less than that technically. I shoulda gone to bed 2 hours ago. Lul rip me.

Probably be back until next phase.  If I'm lucky/have the energy to I might be able to post before work starts or during break before phase ends.

Otherwise yeah.  No random turbos please.

My hardest town reads as of right now are probably Eury/Athena/Jaybee.  Refa/KTS are probably slightly under them.  Scum preferences are Bart > Snike(Until further notice that's how it be no hard feelings) > SB > idk who #4 is.  Orihime/conq/Baldrick are kind of all in this big pile together and are all fairly null to me.  That's me posting this stuff just in case I like randomly die in the middle of the night or something.

[Conqueror]

@Snike 

22 minutes ago, Snike said:

3.Rapier-->conqueror : I'm also uneasy about this slot if only because I disagree with some of the arguments on refa (some of the stuff you're using like Scum!Prims doesn't necessarily apply and it strikes me as using counterexamples to bring down likelihood arguments)  and I think there's an eury reaction to him that looks bad. Preemptive and unfair but I can't really help what I feel.

Could you mention which posts strike you uneasy? Also, which Eury reaction are you talking about?

4.SB: SO here's my thing; I never really am able to get a good grip on SB's alignment, and the same applies here. I don't think the defending refa in itself is inherently scummy and I do agree with the bart/eury wagons but I've been burned once, so I'm twice shy about him.

Could you explain what you mean here about SB's alignment, what do you find off about it? What do you mean when you say you've been burned once, twice shy, do you mean from mislynching SB or reading SB as town when he's scum?

 

12 minutes ago, Iris said:

THE RETURN OF VOTAL BOT SIRI 9.0
Bartozio (6): athena_57, Killthestory, SB, Refa, Shinori, Snike
SB (2): Conqueror, Orihime
athena_57 (1): Bartozio
Refa (1): Baldrick

Not voting: Eurykins, Jaybee

Day 3 ends in ~10.25 hours. With 12 alive, it takes 4 to lynch at deadline.

This wagon looks pretty bunk tbh. Either the scumteam all decided to bus Bart on D3 or this is a hard counterwagon to SB.

[Snike]

day 2* I'm tired.

[Conqueror]

Like I can't defend Bartozio or anything because his last post was godawful. I just don't see what the scum gameplan here is if he's scum, and ALL my major suspects are voting him. Like am I completely wrong on the gamestate or what? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Snike]

3 minutes ago, Conqueror said:

@Snike 

Could you mention which posts strike you uneasy? Also, which Eury reaction are you talking about?

Could you explain what you mean here about SB's alignment, what do you find off about it? What do you mean when you say you've been burned once, twice shy, do you mean from mislynching SB or reading SB as town when he's scum?

 

This wagon looks pretty bunk tbh. Either the scumteam all decided to bus Bart on D3 or this is a hard counterwagon to SB.

At Eury Bit: I mention it later It's on page 29 in response to your asking eury about reads. Middle. It should be in my eury read. Again this is unfair to you because it's a eury-thing imo.

At your bits:  I'm just going to use this post as an example.

It's citing yourself and scumprims as examples of faking or actually having demotivation as scum in order to counterpoint KtS when I think the situation's more nuanced. Yes, scum can fake dmov, but does that happen oftentimes? I'm not going to put words in KtS's mouth but I do think it to be townies demotivated more often than scum, so it's slightly town points.

As I'm writing this I realize that my issues with things like that on your end aren't inherently scummy just different ways of playing the game, so I guess rn my suspicion would more depend on Eury than the interactions with Refa.

At Sb: I'm not very good at reading him, so it would be latter. Recent game that comes to mind for me was Antihero Anonydraft, where he was scum mayor and had pocketed me and nearly won in Lylo.

 

So my thing is, yes I agree with his arguments but I'm trying to stay wary of him because of that prior traumatic experience.

[Conqueror]

Ah well I can't respond to the Eury thing. Fair enough. I'll look at the tone thing you mentioned when I get to all the other stuff I said I was going to do.

1 minute ago, Snike said:

It's citing yourself and scumprims as examples of faking or actually having demotivation as scum in order to counterpoint KtS when I think the situation's more nuanced. Yes, scum can fake dmov, but does that happen oftentimes? I'm not going to put words in KtS's mouth but I do think it to be townies demotivated more often than scum, so it's slightly town points.

As I'm writing this I realize that my issues with things like that on your end aren't inherently scummy just different ways of playing the game, so I guess rn my suspicion would more depend on Eury than the interactions with Refa.

At Sb: I'm not very good at reading him, so it would be latter. Recent game that comes to mind for me was Antihero Anonydraft, where he was scum mayor and had pocketed me and nearly won in Lylo.

So my thing is, yes I agree with his arguments but I'm trying to stay wary of him because of that prior traumatic experience.

I've seen tons of situations with scum faking demotivation. I could probably quote a whole bunch of games for examples, but that's not really the issue here. I don't know whether on balance town or scum are more demotivated, but the important thing here is whether Refa here is faking demotivation, not whether town or scum are more demotivated as a whole - I mean who cares about that? We're talking about this game. But this specific argument's already gone back and forth a bunch. In the end, I only really brought it up because someone (I think this was SB?) said that Refa's demotivation makes him more town when I think it's NAI.

Re: being wary of SB. Well, what do you think of the points people have brought up against him? I know someone like SB is hard to read - hell I've flipped my read on him today from what I had before.

[Snike]

I can see a world where SB is scum. I think there is some merit to his being safe about the lynches and defending refa. I don't want to lynch him right now, however.

I don't think I see a world where refa and SB are scum together. But that's more because of refa than SB's doing to be honest.

Also I'm not sure if Scum!SB would show up and drunkpost. NAI but I really don't think he'd risk his teammates by doing that.

[Snike]

the tl;dr is I can see SB being scum but right now I'm leaning no.  I think the wagon's more likely pure rather than corrupt.

[Snike]

I'm heading off. I'm fine with my vote where it is.

[Conqueror]

Bart should claim. I suspect he might not even be back before deadline though, and I don't think enough people want to switch to SB that SB will get lynched over Bart. Ah well. We'll see if he actually flips scum.

Quick skim of Eury's Shinori case. While I think there are ~*connections there*~, I don't think they're scumbuddy connections. You'd have to assume that the entire thing was planned beforehand in a stupid theatre that would inevitably draw everyone's attention towards them and put them under scrutiny. Would a Shinori/Refa/SB scumteam do something stupid like that when none of them were under pressure? Sure Shinori busses his buddies but what about buddies that aren't really under pressure and would likely survive to endgame? I think the gambit was terrible but I've filed Shinori as the type of person who would pull something like that as town and genuinely think he's getting something out of it. You probably know him better, do you disagree?

6 hours ago, Refa said:

>Read on Shinori changes based on talking with SB and Shinori's newer posts.  People are complaining about this because "it could come from scum" but it really doesn't benefit Scum!Randa to completely drop his Shinori read.

This is the kicker for me and the part where I don't see the town progression. Nowhere in his post did he indicate Shinori was looking more town, hell in the first part of the post he was still talking about how Shinori was scummy to him, but at the end of the post Shinori is suddenly null to null-town. In the context of the post it looks like he stopped pushing Shinori because he felt he couldn't pick up anything else on him and then started attacking KTS for what looked to me like playstyle differences. I can see why you might not think this progression is scummy per se but I still don't get how you thought he was town for this since the new angle of attack he took was pretty bad.

@Refa Otherwise I don't have any more questions to ask you before the flip. If we're both still alive tomorrow (which I think is likely) we can continue this. I will ask you why you've basically proxied your vote to SB though. From my limited experience with you, you seem like the type of player who's cooperative but will still think for themselves, so I dunno why you've been so passive today apart from your attack on me earlier.

Also, Eruca's new design >>>> Eruca's old design.

 

[Conqueror]

5 hours ago, Snike said:

8.Eurykins- I am getting flashbacks to Brexitland. Eury's not usually this angry/aggressive imo and then on page 29 there's a tone flip from outrage to what I would describe as cordial when talking about reads to conq; which is reminiscent of the quizzing SHinori during that game. I feel like she's scum.

No time to do a proper read of Brexitland but I skimmed it. So I take it you think Eury's anger at Shinori here is similar to how she treated Omega in that game? I'm looking at her case on Omega and it involved...yelling at him for vote swapping a lot? The anger in that game seems a lot more forced to me. And her cases on Omega and other people in that case never really got super indepth like what she's put out on people so far this game - tell if me if you disagree. Incidentally reading this game and seeing how Eury attacked people like BBM there reminds me why people (several of you in this game, I don't remember who) saying scum won't make hipster cases is an outright lie.

I'm obviously biased in thinking that Eury being cordial to me isn't weird - even in a Eury!scum world, she'd just be addressing a townie who she's not attacking. I'm too lazy to find examples of Eury interacting with not!Shinori townies in Brexitland but examples probably exist.

@Eurykins You've said a lot but uh, who are you voting today?

[Conqueror]

11 hours ago, SB. said:

That response is really non-specific and doesn't properly go over Refa's reaction at all. People tend to catch on to small details about scum's posts when they know their alignments for sure (this is graveyard bias in a nutshell) and there none of that to be found.

Scum!Eury would know that town!Refa was town, but she would have to lie about it. You don't want to overly push a townie if you don't have to because then people start doubting you after the flip (see: Evan wagon D1). It makes more sense to say "well this is probaly what happened" than actually take risks arguing with Refa and risk exposing herself later upon town!Refa flip.

Scum do things to either push mislynches or make themselves look better. I don't think that scum!KTS would have actually been aiming to lynch me here because there were easier targets to go off of, and I didn't think that he was trying to play it up to the crowd either.

You should read it because there's a bunch of forced conclusions in there that don't make sense.

- There's a massive difference between graveyard bias (where you are both 100% sure about alignments and also salty because you're dead) and thinking you're 99% sure about someone being scum for a multitude of reasons. I'm not sure what "properly go over Refa's reaction" means. Are you saying Eury is the type of player who would take Refa's "I'm obvtown" post in her position and use her scum!Refa bias to paint every single word in a scummy light, or something like that? But she kind of did, I've even discussed with you stuff she poked at Refa with that I thought was a stretch, like the non fullclaiming stuff.

- I agree that scum would do what you mentioned in your scenario, but I also think town would do that as well. What would you even argue with Refa about? He has a guilty on him, it's basically he said she said, and in this case I think most people already thought Shinori was bullheaded town.

- Ah, this is what I was remembering. Obviously KTS wasn't aiming to lynch you, but outside of trying to drive a lynch or getting town cred, scum can discredit people by making cases on them, or to try and gauge how many townies are suspecting someone. I feel like I could probably dig up examples from your own scumplay that directly show this, or maybe you can think of them yourself. My point is that it's a weird reason to drop someone and you didn't feel like you were really trying to dig into his alignment by asking him questions or pointing out parts of his play that bothered you to dispel your suspicion and solidify your townread.

- I read it, and now I'm going to throw your own statement back at you. Do you think scum!Eury is using this case to push a mislynch on Shinori or make herself look better?

(I don't think it would be beyond her as scum, but I don't think she's scum in this case. There are forced conclusions that don't make sense to me, but that applies to a lot of the cases I've read this game. If there are specific things that bother you to the point where you think the logic is scummy instead of garden variety bad, point them out?)

[Conqueror]

I think that's everything I wanted to get to. I probably won't be back before deadline - if I am it would be for about 5 minutes and then I'd be gone again.

The fact that we still have people not voting at this stage is pretty lame.

[Athena_57]

Don't have time for a long post atm, I'll be back before phase end though. I've read/skimmed everything, Eury's stuff looked good to me, pretty sure she's town.

Whilst I'm unimpressed by Bart's response (I might reply later, some of his points are disagreements, other points are minor nitpicks that even if correct, don't address the overall point), I don't think I understand why scum!Bart votes me here? I can see town!Bart getting pissed and voting me, but I'd expect scum!Bart to hop on a counterwagon of some sort...
This vote is basically like giving up in that sense, so maybe it's a middle ground between giving up and defending? If someone could give their take on this, that'd be great.

Also, Bart, you have yet to tell me why I'm scum. You say my D1 was following my meta, yet you've neglected to give examples/elaborations despite me asking you for this repeatedly. You describe my D2 as "pushing a scummy agenda" when a) a lot more people were voting RAD and b) there's a lot more there and you've also failed to comment on my D3 besides disagreeing with my case on you. Seconding you should claim and tell us who you're going to consolidate on.

 

@Orihime Sorry if I've missed this, but you still haven't told me why you asked me to roleclaim? I'm still confused as to where that question came from.

 

[Jaybee]

Conq v Refa THUNDERDOME

Spoiler

hahaha holy shit i tried reading the whole thing and i gave up, i hate thunderdomes. going for very very choice quotes here.

On 19/05/2018 at 8:29 AM, Conqueror said:

Sorry, but I'm not wasting any more company time reading the thread. I already said I thought Bart was a possible candidate for scum earlier but I not going to be pretend I have anything more than that. I think Ice Sage is another good bet for scum. I have one other scum read I'm not going to bring up for now because it's not useful if they're town.

where does the ice sage read suddenly appear from? I only read you saying that you were open to newbTown Ice Sage on your D2 post 1.

On 19/05/2018 at 6:23 PM, Conqueror said:

2) THIS statement is in bad faith, because if I'd thought your reaction was so obviously faked, I'd have brought it up earlier. Refa quoting one of my posts from today and asking me why I didn't make that post yesterday is super silly, when yesterday I was sold on RAD!scum. What point are you even trying to make here?

but you HAVE shown the ability to maintain more than one case at once. I noted this in my page 30 post, but you did case the shit out of Athena before saying your vote was still on RAD.

actually, what happened to that Athena read? Could someone link me to the conclusion of that, if there was one? Can't remember it at all.

sorry at this point i decided to hyperspeed through the thread. weekends are ass.

i feel like Conq is trying to push this Refa read super super hard. Coming up with scenarios for Refa/Bart interactions, the reaction to Shinori's gambit, etc.

What exactly is scummy about Refa's being passive wrt his Athena case at end D2? Isn't the right play as both town and scum to push another player as hard as possible, if you're going down that road? Is this poor play, or scummy play? 

[Jaybee]

HOLY SHIT CTRL-ENTER IS POST???

ahem. as you can tell. that was intended to be the start of a mega wall.

[Shinori]

Turns out I get to be here for phase end. lul

[Shinori]

3 hours ago, Conqueror said:

Bart should claim. I suspect he might not even be back before deadline though, and I don't think enough people want to switch to SB that SB will get lynched over Bart. Ah well. We'll see if he actually flips scum.

I honestly feel that Bart should have claimed yesterday night when he came around to post some and then just vanished.

[Killthestory]

i had a dream where we lynched bart, lost, and then town called me terrible.

incidentally in this world there were only two wolves, and it was like jaybee and baldrick or something

[Killthestory]

maybe it's a sign

[Baldrick]

32 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

What exactly is scummy about Refa's being passive wrt his Athena case at end D2? Isn't the right play as both town and scum to push another player as hard as possible, if you're going down that road? Is this poor play, or scummy play? 

The result of being passive is that Rad is more likely to be lynched, which Refa didn't want to happen. The difference between town and scum is the latter actually want it to happen.