Rate the Unit, Day 92: Brave Ephraim & Brave Veronica

[Shiki]

Donnel: 5.62
Nowi: 8.30

@Nowi's Husband Nice try.

@Frigid@Poimagic Yeah this is pretty lackluster. Tbf overlooking the entire progress so far there were 1-2 cases I should have said something.

 

Frederick, Polite Knight

Spoiler

Max. Stats:
40/43/46
32/35/38
22/25/29
33/36/39
11/14/18

Base Skills:

Hammer+
( - )
Luna

( - )
Wings of Mercy
Fortify Def

Cherche, Wyvern Friend

Spoiler

Max. Stats:
43/46/49
35/38/41
22/25/29
29/32/35
12/16/19

Base Skills:

Hammer+
Pivot
( - )

Attack+
( - )
Fortify Def

... should I be afraid?

Edited May 28, 2018 by The Priest

[kirauza343]

Ooh, this is the first member of my current main team we've hit, so apologies if I come across as a bit biased.

Cherche: Her selling point is easily her attack; at 38 only M!Grima, Effie, and Horse!Chrom have her beat and her defense and mobility are great as well. She's a fantastic candidate for a Brave Axe build, especially combined with drag back or hit and run. She's strong enough to function well without Flier buffs which makes her a good choice for mixed teams (even more so if you give her the guidance Sacred seal) or you could boost her stats even more running a flier team. Her speed and resistance are pretty terrible, but those don't matter as much if you can kill those fast or magic wielding units in just two swings. It's not the most versatile, but if you want a good brave axe user she's easily one of the best. Rating: 8.5

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by kirauza343

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Frederick: Frederick can hit hard, he's on a horse, and he's one of only three mounted axe users in the permanent summoning pool. But his resistance is pitiful, and his speed really isn't that great; he'll get doubled by pretty much everyone. Still, though, you can make use of his attack power, and giving him some useful skills can improve him. 5/10

Cherche: Like Frederick, she has bad resistance and will get doubled by pretty much everyone. But she also has one of the highest attack stats in the game and her physical defense is no joke, she's strong enough that she doesn't need buffs to function well. She's also a flyer so she has good mobility, just beware of arrows. 7/10

[Anacybele]

Frederick is an amazing and underrated unit. Speed and Res aren't everything. And you can make him fucking fast as hell anyway. lol He has the highest Atk among cavalry and the second highest Def among them, and he can take advantage of horse buffs. He's one of the few launch units that can hold up very well against things today. If you build him right, he can tank just about any physical attack out there. It is a bit expensive though, and he will be a bit slow if you don't go the Spd route I mentioned above. But he's still very good for what he is and one of the best physical tanks in the game.

Case in point: Look at my Frederick whose +Def + Steady Stance + QR + Ignis combo kills nearly any unit in the game and few sword units, let alone axes, lances, or bows, can scratch him. This actually isn't that hard of a build to do either if you're willing to ditch a Black Knight since he was free. You could also add a Slaying Axe+ to make Ignis proc faster. That's where the highish price comes in because that requires sacrificing any 5 star unit that has a Killer or Slaying Axe+ but it's so worth it. I don't think you even need as many merges as I've given my Freddy.

8.5/10

 

Cherche is pretty much Frederick on a wyvern, but with lower Def and slightly higher Atk, so she can really only effectively run a Brave Axe+ build. She could do a tank build like the one I mentioned above for Frederick too, I think, but he and some other high Def units pull it off better. And a Spd build is also possible since her Spd is actually exactly the same as Frederick's, even down to the banes and boons, but that's sacrificing +Atk for +Spd, and she really wants +Atk. Still, she is quite good with the Brave Axe+ build.

8/10

This is my first time rating because I didn't think I was familiar enough with most of the units that were listed previously.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Anacybele

[Alexmender]

Frederick. He shares the spot for the highest Atk of all Axe cavaliers alongside Spring Alfonse and also the highest Def. His good Hp/Atk/Def let him be a strong tank in EP although by virtue of being on a horse he lacks skills like Steady Breath making him a inferior option compared to infantry/armor units in this regard. As a Player Phase unit his high Atk lets him run a Brave Axe+ set with great results, although the increase in bulk makes him suffer, but he can always use Chill Def to overcome this. Sadly his Res and Spd are pathetic which means he will struggle against dragons and faster threats. He is a very powerful unit that will cause a lot of damage if you play to his strenghts.

Rating: 8/10

Cherche. She sports the second highest Atk for axe fliers in the game (highest considering her access to natures). She is very similar to Frederick but unlike him she sports a higher BST due to melee fliers not having any kind of penalty unlike horses. Her best build is a Brave Axe+ build but can also use an anti-armor set with Slaying Hammer+ putting her in the same spot as Frederick. Cherche main advantage over him is that she's a flier which lets her use Hit and Run tactics, Guidance for mixed teams and can traverse any kind of terrain without issues. She has a pathetic Res stat which means that she'll be in trouble if she ends in the range of a mage/dragon. Still, she's extremely powerful despite her lack of a Prf weapon and will serve you incredibly well if you wish to invest in her.

Rating: 8.5/10

[LordFrigid]

Frederick

• Physical stat line featuring high Atk and Def, low Spd, and very poor Res.
  • Very strong blue, strong green matchups on offense with an Atk-stacking Brave Axe/Axebreaker set with Hone Cavalry active.
  • Very strong blue, decent green matchups on defense against 1-range foes with a Slaying Axe set. Difficult to justify a DC set due to his low Res.
• As a cavalry unit, he can run a cavalry field or combat buff in his C passive slot. He also has some Panic Ploy capability.

Overall, I give him 8 for combat (very strong blue, strong green offense matchups), and 1.5 for support (cavalry field/combat buff, some Panic Ploy potential), for a total rating of 7.5/10.

Cherche

• Physical stat line featuring very high Atk, good Def, low Spd, and very poor Res.
  • Very strong blue, strong green matchups on offense with an Atk-stacking Brave Axe/Axebreaker set with Hone Cavalry active.
  • Very strong blue, decent green matchups on defense against 1-range foes with a Slaying Axe set. Difficult to justify a DC set due to her low Res and weakness to flier-effective bows.
• As a flier unit, she can run a flier field or combat buff in her C passive slot. She also has Panic Ploy capability.

Overall, I give her 8.5 for combat (very strong blue, strong green offense matchups), and 1.5 for support (flier field/combat buff, Panic Ploy potential), for a total rating of 8/10.

~

Scoring method:

Spoiler

Units are evaluated based on both their combat performance and their team support capabilities (i.e. their whole contribution to a team).

• Combat performance is judged by matchups, especially against enemies that are at triangle disadvantage or neutral to the unit. Performance against more relevant meta threats is more valuable than performance against units that are rarely seen. Scale of 0 to 10.
  • Sustainability and filling a useful niche are given small bonuses, when applicable.
  • I will look at least one PP-focused and one EP-focused skill set for each unit, but only evaluate based on performance for whichever phase I deem the unit to be stronger on.
• Support capabilities are decided by how much support a unit can provide (without horribly compromising their combat capabilities), and how valuable I feel that support is. Scale of 0 to 3.
• At the end, the combat and support scores will be weighted (with a heavy focus on combat performance), combined, and rounded to the nearest .5 to obtain the total rating. Dancers and Singers will get +1 point to their total rating (not to exceed 10), because I value Dance/Sing utility highly.

This method of evaluation essentially compares each unit to a hypothetical "god unit" who is stellar at everything, instead of each unit to each other.

All my ratings.

Edited May 27, 2018 by LordFrigid

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Frederick - Still on the top of his lonely class. Frederick is a min maxed wall, one of very few horses with good enough results for tanking. He can use a brave axe as well, but who cares about brave weapons in 2018? Frederick doesn't have the best Panic Ploy in the country like Bartre or Cherche's access to flier buffs and 38 attack but he's still absolutely viable. 6.5 out of 10.

Cherche - Hey speaking of Cherche, she has two points of attack over Bartre and three over Frederick. None of this trio can compete with Winter Chrom's results as a wall, but at least they have better movement options. 7.5 out of 10.

[Rafiel's Aria]

Not sure how good I'll actually be at these, but I've been wanting to give them a shot for a while. I'll probably throw in my opinions every now and then when I actually have time. A little bummed that I missed out on Merric and Raven, but I'm pretty happy to see that at least Raven did well! And that Merric isn't dead last.

Frederick - He has very little competition in his class, so that alone probably boosts his rating. He's also been regularly available as a 3/4 star since launch which makes him an easier merging candidate. His high ATK and DEF allow him to run both a player phase Brave build and an enemy phase Slaying build effectively. His base kit isn't even bad for AA use considering the number of armors. High mobility and access to horse buffs are also a benefit of his movement type, but as a cav, he could potentially have some huge issues with terrain effects and horse slaying weapons like Zanbato (however, these aren't as common). He fries if he looks at magic, and with his low SPD, he's going to get doubled by just about anything that isn't Henry or Sophia. I'm going to give him a 7.5. 
 

Cherche - Another unit that doesn't have very much class competition. Like Frederick, she's been regularly available as a 3/4 star since launce so a decent merge candidate. She can also run a player phase Brave build and an enemy phase Slaying build with her high ATK and DEF. She even has a similar base kit to Frederick along with access to flier buffs and great mobility....but also the terrible SPD and RES. She doesn't have to worry about terrain effects, but she is vulnerable to bows. However, she can neutralize those effects with Iote's shield without having to waste her A slot. Once again, magic destroys her which can be problematic considering how the meta tends to lean towards "magic is everything." I'm going to give her an 8.5. 

Frederick will likely run an enemy phase build better, but Cherche's higher ATK will let her run a player phase build better. Both have great mobility, but I value a flier's ability to basically disregard terrain effects over a cav's extra movement. Both have similar weaknesses to magic and effective weapons, but the availability of Iote's Shield as a seal helps Cherche out a bit more. If Grani's Shield were available, I'd boost Frederick's score up to an 8.
 

 

[eclipse]

Frederick - Best axe attacker on a horse, even if his stat total's a little lower than others (he really doesn't notice).  With Spd and Res as dump stats, he has plenty to put in Atk and Def.  He's a warping physical wall that hits back, or he can run QR in his B slot and really lay the hurt on physical blues.  His low Res means that he's not as effective at tanking blues (and blue mages HURT).  He fills his niche well, though.  7/10

Cherche - She looks like Gerome . .no, wait, he has HER stat line.  But she gets boons and banes, so she can go +Atk/-Spd and become a flying terror with a Brave Axe.  Combine that with flier buffs, and she's an offensive force to be reckoned with.  Like Frederick, she can be used somewhat on EP to tank physical blues.  But unlike Frederick, she'll need Iote's Shield in the S slot, or certain bow units become a problem.  Like Frederick, she fills her niche well.  I think flying teams are riskier to run than horse teams due to a universal bow weakness (and the best flying -raven to deal with them sharing the same color as her), so the extra offense and mobility cancels out.  7/10

[redlight]

Frederick: of the two axe cavaliers in the normal summoning pool he's the tanky one. His usual set up is the extremely mobile physical wall. Has shit res. Has a superboon in speed which you could work with. Decent attack value of 35. Good physical bulk

7.5: Overall, it's easy to see which stats are emphasized, but that doesn't mean his speed can't be of use. The good: horse mobility, good physical bulk, workable speed, good enemy phase performance against physical damage units, decent attack value, has the option for player or enemy phase builds. The bad: lack of player phase with enemy phase builds, bad speed for enemy phase builds, trenches screw player phase melee horses, horse weakness, bad res, has to choose between player or enemy phase builds.

Cherche: pretty much the same as Frederick, except has flier mobility and better attack.

8.5: A flying death machine. The good: flier mobility, monstrous attack value, workable speed, has the option of having good player phase or enemy phase performance, workable speed, flier formation, good user of heavy blade. The bad: arrow weakness, bad res, has to choose between player or enemy phase builds, bad speed for enemy phase builds as well as a lack of player phase for enemy phase builds.

Edited May 28, 2018 by silveraura25

[XRay]

While Firesweep Axe is not out yet and Cherche is not the best flying unit at using it either, I rather future proof my score and pretend it is already out and I also think that Firesweep-Hit and Run is probably viable enough even on slow units especially with Dancer/Singer support, so Cherche is getting those points in the other criterion.

Here is how my criteria are rated:

Spoiler

Mobility:
Armor units are 0/10. Infantry units are 5/10. Cavalry units are 8/10. Flying units are 9/10. Units with unique mobility skills will bump up their score.
Range:
Melee units are 0/10. Distant Counter Weapon melee units are 5/10. Ranged units are 10/10.
Player Phase Raw Performance:
This is based on the W:L:I ratio. Enemies will have a set up of +5, +Spd, Moonbow, and Fury. The unit will be +0, may not use Breakers, and will not have Chills or Ploys activate. Units may have access to buffs (usually, +4 to any two stats for infantry and armors, and 6/6/0/0 or 0/0/6/6 for cavalry and fliers). I would also list the build used to achieve that ratio. I think the following formula is pretty reasonable:
(W%) - (L%*0.25) = Raw Performance
Player Phase Weighted Performance:
Since most units can get a raw performance score of at least 5, setting 5 as 0 for the weighted performance makes more sense in judging how good a unit is.
(Raw Performance - 5) * 2 = Weighted Performance
Player Phase Independence:
This just means how reliant the unit is on buffs. If I take off the buffs and the unit still performs pretty well, they will get a good score. The formula is that same as the raw performance:
(W%) - (L%*0.25) = Independence
Enemy Phase Raw Performance:
See Above.
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance:
See Above.
Enemy Phase Independence:
See Above.
Ease of Use:
This is an average of the mobility and range scores.
Performance:
This consolidates the weighted performance and independence scores into one score, and uses the higher of Player Phase or Enemy Phase. This also means that the build used in weighted performance may not necessarily be their best build, since there may be an alternative build with a slightly worse performance but have much higher independence.
(Weighted Performance * 0.8) + (Raw Performance * 0.1) + (Independence * 0.1) = Performance
Support:
Most units by default will be 0/10. Units with 30+ Res start from 1/10. Dagger units start from 1/10. Healers start from 2/10. Buffers start from 3/10. Fliers start from 4/10. Dancers/Singers start from 5/10. Other unique support skills may further boost their score.
Other:
If the unit has some unique application or fun build, it will be noted here. For example, since Raven mages have a performance penalty, they will get some extra points here for being relevant and viable in certain team compositions.

Familiarity/Experience:
This just means how familiar I am with this particular unit or type of unit in Arena. If it is a low number, that means you should take the following rating number with a grain of salt since I do not have much experience with this particular unit and/or type of unit.
Rating:
The rating is how good I think a unit is. Here is how I weigh each criterion:
Ease of Use 4/10
Performance: 5/10
Support: 1/10
Other: If the unit got some unique application or fun build, they will get a boost to their rating.

Notes:
1. A unit's build in raw performance will not take into account a unit's support build, Raven build, or any other builds. Likewise, a unit's ease of use, support, and other criteria will not take into account the unit's raw performance build.
2. Since healers' Firesweep build [+Atk, Pain [Dazzling Staff], Attack +3, Wrathful Staff, Attack +3] requires the user to do two rounds of combat to measure how good it is, that overwhelmingly skews the combat results for healers, so I decided to tone down their performance by using Brazen Atk/Spd-Desperation and taking away 10 HP or 25% of max HP, which ever is greater.
3. The build used in raw/weighted performance might not be the build with the best score. If there is an alternative build with a slightly less performance but much higher independence, that build will be used instead.
4. Axe and dagger versions of Wo Dao are not available in the regular summoning pool yet, but I think they will be added in the future, so I am using Giant Spoon and Lethal Carrot.

Disclosures:
I have a strong bias for non-armor Player Phase ranged units. My experience with melee and armor units in Arena is pretty minimal, so my rating for them is mostly based on theory. My Arena core consists of BH!Lyn, Reinhardt, and Olivia. I am usually in Tier 20, but I may drop to Tier 19 if I do not fish for points.

Other:

Spoiler

Template

— — — — — — — ◆Red◆ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ◾Blue◾ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ⬟Green⬟ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ●Colorless● — — — — — — —

Mobility: /10
Range: /10
Player Phase Raw Performance: /10 — #:#:#
Player Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Player Phase Independence: /10 — #:#:#
[+Boon, -Bane, Weapon, Special, A, B, Sacred Seal, #/#/#/#]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: /10 — #:#:#
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Enemy Phase Independence: /10 — #:#:#
[+Boon, -Bane, Weapon, Special, A, B, Sacred Seal, #/#/#/#]

Ease of Use: /10
Performance: /10
Support: /10
Other: /10

Familiarity/Experience: /10
Rating: /10

Summary:

_______ got bad/okay/good/stellar combat performance.

She/He can the support the team with Ploys.

She/He can support the team with daggers/Light Breath and Dark Breath.

She/He is a great mobility support unit as a flier.

She/He can also run Firesweep-Hit and Run as a flier unit.

She/He can run a Firesweep-Poison Strike-Poison Strike.

She/He can run Wrathful Staff-Dazzling Staff to emulate Firesweep archers.

She/He can run a Raven set.

— — — — — — — ◆Red◆ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ◾Blue◾ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ⬟Green⬟ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ●Colorless● — — — — — — —

Mobility: /10
Range: /10
Player Phase Raw Performance: /10 — #:#:#
Player Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Player Phase Independence: /10 — #:#:#
[+Boon, -Bane, Weapon, Special, A, B, Sacred Seal, #/#/#/#]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: /10 — #:#:#
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Enemy Phase Independence: /10 — #:#:#
[+Boon, -Bane, Weapon, Special, A, B, Sacred Seal, #/#/#/#]

Ease of Use: /10
Performance: /10
Support: /10
Other: /10

Familiarity/Experience: /10
Rating: /10

Summary:

_______ got bad/okay/good/stellar combat performance.

She/He can the support the team with Ploys.

She/He can support the team with daggers/Light Breath and Dark Breath.

She/He is a great mobility support unit as a flier.

She/He can also run Firesweep-Hit and Run as a flier unit.

She/He can run a Firesweep-Poison Strike-Poison Strike.

She/He can run Wrathful Staff-Dazzling Staff to emulate Firesweep archers.

She/He can run a Raven set.

 

— — — — — — — ⬟Cherche⬟ — — — — — — —

Mobility: 9/10
Range: 0/10
Player Phase Raw Performance: 7.67/10 — 204:40:9
Player Phase Weighted Performance: 5.34/10
Player Phase Independence: 6.13/10 — 170:60:23
[+Atk, -Spd, Brave Axe, Moonbow, Death Blow, Guard, Quickened Pulse, 6/6/0/0]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: 5.78/10 — 164:71:18
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: 1.56/10
Enemy Phase Independence: 4.91/10 — 147:91:15
[+Def, -Spd, Slaying Axe [Def], Ignis, Distant Counter, Quick Riposte, Iote's Shield, 0/0/6/6]

Ease of Use: 4.5/10
Performance: 5.65/10
Support: 4/10
Other: 10/10

Familiarity/Experience: 1/10
Rating: 6/10

Summary:

Cherche got good combat performance. She can also run Firesweep-Hit and Run as a flier unit.

— — — — — — — ⬟Green⬟ — — — — — — —

Mobility: 8/10
Range: 0/10
Player Phase Raw Performance: 7.16/10 — 191:39:23
Player Phase Weighted Performance: 4.33/10
Player Phase Independence: 5.55/10 — 153:50:50
[+Atk, -Spd, Brave Axe, Moonbow, Death Blow, Guard, Quickened Pulse, 6/6/0/0]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: 6.44/10 — 176:52:25
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: 2.89/10
Enemy Phase Independence: 5.14/10 — 151:84:18
[+Atk, -Spd, Slaying Axe [Def], Ignis, Distant Counter, Quick Riposte, Close Def, 0/0/6/6]

Ease of Use: 4/10
Performance: 4.73/10
Support: 0/10
Other: 0/10

Familiarity/Experience: 0/10
Rating: 4/10

Summary:

Frederick got okay combat performance.

Edited May 28, 2018 by XRay

[Shiki]

@Anacybele Won't count your Frederick vote. It is possible to do constructive explainations without letting your bias show in such an obvious manner.
Your vote for Cherche is fine though.

@XRay You sure that your rating criteria will work in long term? They are fine in terms of reasoning but my left eye was twitching for a while now since you scored some notable units worse than Alfonse ... I have yet to see a score higher than 6 from you if I'm not mistaken. There is no need for scaling your votes but at this rate everything is going to stay lower than 6 until someone like Reinhardt shows up.

EDIT: Never mind, I forgot Cordelia's.

Frederick: 6.63
Cherche: 7.75

Saizo, Angry Ninja

Spoiler

Max. Stats:
33/36/40
25/29/32
31/34/37
30/33/36
12/16/19

Base Skills:

Smoke Dagger+
Harsh Command
( - )

( - )
Poison Strike
Spur Spd

Kagero, Honorable Ninja

Spoiler

Max. Stats:
28/31/34
32/35/38
29/32/35
19/22/25
24/28/31

Base Skills:

Poison Dagger+
( - )
Reprisal

Warding Blow
Daggerbreaker+
( - )

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by The Priest

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, The Priest said:

Won't count your Frederick vote. You can do constructive explainations without letting your bias show in such an obvious manner.

The fuck? I didn't let bias get in my way at all. I rated him perfectly fairly, even pointed out what his weaknesses were, and other people gave him a very similar rating too (some people gave him an 8/10 while I gave him 8.5, a very small difference). You are not being fair. It isn't like I did what Nowi's Husband did with Nowi and gave a 10/10 for dumb reasons.

Screw this thread then, I won't rate if my ratings won't be counted just because I like the fucking character I rate.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Anacybele

[XRay]

1 hour ago, The Priest said:

You sure that your rating criteria will work in long term? They are fine in terms of reasoning but my left eye was twitching for a while now since you scored some notable units worse than Alfonse ... I have yet to see a score higher than 6 from you if I'm not mistaken. There is no need for scaling your votes but at this rate everything is going to stay lower than 6 until someone like Reinhardt shows up.

I changed my scoring formula quite a bit since the beginning, so Alfonse would have a score of 3 now if using the current formula.

What I am trying achieve with my formula is to is to make the top and bottom tiers more exclusive, so it would look more like Gamepedia's distribution and not like Gamepress's distribution.

Since the rating system is based on a numerical scale of 0-10, I assumed at first that a score of 5 would be considered average, so the interval between scores of 0 and 4 would be just as important as the interval between 6 and 10. However, it seems like most people consider ~7 as the average; that means the interval between 0-3 is meaningless as there is practically no difference between a unit rated as 0 and a unit rated as 3.

I do not mind slapping +2 at the end of my formula and that should calibrate to 7 being the average, but it feels kind of weird to have a numerical scale where 0-3 are rarely if ever used, while 8-10 are given out much more liberally.

Edited May 28, 2018 by XRay

[eclipse]

20 minutes ago, XRay said:

I changed my scoring formula quite a bit since the beginning, so Alfonse would have a score of 3 now if using the current formula.

What I am trying achieve with my formula is to is to make the top and bottom tiers more exclusive, so it would look more like Gamepedia's distribution and not like Gamepress's distribution.

Since the rating system is based on a numerical scale of 0-10, I assumed at first that a score of 5 would be considered average, so the interval between scores of 0 and 4 would be just as important as the interval between 6 and 10. However, it seems like most people consider ~7 as the average; that means the interval between 0-3 is meaningless as there is practically no difference between a unit rated as 0 and a unit rated as 3.

I do not mind slapping +2 at the end of my formula and that should calibrate to 7 being the average, but it feels kind of weird to have a numerical scale where 0-3 are rarely if ever used, while 8-10 are given out much more liberally.

Hmmm. . .just an idea, but what if you were to run every single character in the game through your score criteria, and see how your totals pan out?  That way, you can see whether or not your scores are because the early characters are mostly mediocre, or if it's a fault in the formula.

Anyway, rating.

Saizo - Take Matthew, and have him lean towards Atk and Def.  He'll wall physical units with Rogue Dagger/CC better than Matthew, or he can become a heavy debuffer with his native Smoke Dagger.  He won't shank everything outright, but he'll inflict some serious stat hurt.  He still needs support to truly shine, though.  4/10

Kagero - The original One-Punch Dagger until Sothe showed up.  Her Poison Dagger was a menace early-on, due to the focus on infantry.  With the shift to Everything Else and better optimized stat lines, her OHKO potential has been somewhat nerfed (she still murders the squishy mages).  She can still run the other daggers and make things cry, like the weapons from her fellow ninja. . .or steal Sakura's Kitty Paddle, since she also has a half-decent Res stat.  Her speed's a bit disappointing, though.  7/10

[redlight]

32 minutes ago, XRay said:

However, it seems like most people consider ~7 as the average; that means the interval between 0-3 is meaningless as there is practically no difference between a unit rated as 0 and a unit rated as 3.

I treat scores like how grades worked in my high school. The 70ish percent mark is "average" where I studied at. Anything that's 55% or lower is considered a failure. In other words, "bad".

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

I treat scores like how grades worked in my high school. The 70ish percent mark is "average" where I studied at. Anything that's 55% or lower is considered a failure. In other words, "bad".

I go with the pain scale, so 5 = average.  Because I think the school grading system is nonsense.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@The Priest and the rating discussion. The OP only requires that you give an explanation for your rating or agree with somebody else's explanation for the sake of time. Some people are only going to poke their head in when their favorite character or a very notorious character's Day has come up. And as long as everybody abides by rules, I don't see a need to disqualify votes even for perceived bias. Bias is the reason most people poke their head in here on a non regular basis. It's easy to notice a lot of us work on our own rating systems as well. I see people use terms like "mediocre" to describe units they rate a 7 out of 10. There's no rule stating that we should be on the same page for our numerical ratings and the time to have made one was on Day 1. There isn't enough time in a single day to ask people for clarifications regarding weird numerical ratings. 

Saizo - The best wielder of the Rogue/Smoke Dagger options. Saizo at base matches Matthew with his Atk superboon, allowing Saizo to further boost his attack or speed further. Preferably speed since wind/water sweep is so great for getting debuffs without death on counterattack. What make Saizo and Matthew superior to Gaius is that while they have a bit less speed to work with, their physical bulk allows them to survive counterattacks from non dragons and feasibly use a different B skill. 4 out of 10. Wish I rated Matthew and Saizo a 3.5 to differentiate.

Kagero - Dagger units with better offensive stats have come out since Kagero. Sothe and Spring Kagero are outright better. The Poison Dagger cannot be refined. Infantry units have come back into prominence thanks to the dragon meta and tactics skills. But still you can get better dragon killers than the 5 MT physical weapon that deals effective damage on them. Kagero still finds a place on a team. But she's dead weight the moment you encounter a flying team or armored team. Or the infantry units that do exist will QR kill her because they avoid her double and have a DC weapon. You really have to push her attack and speed stats to ensure ORKOs. 4.5 out of 10. Too risky for arena due to how easy she's shut down. But easier to use than the Matthew/Saizo/Gaius trio since she'll kill units rather than Buff/debuff.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Glennstavos

[Alexmender]

Saizo. He's practically Matthew but more min-maxed which makes him slightly better as a physical tank but has more trouble with dragons/mages due to his lower Res. They work practically the same so it's up to preference who you wish to use. Saizo has a slight edge thanks to his higher Atk but that's about it.

Rating: 4/10 

Kagero. The dagger unit with the best base Atk in the game, tied with her Spring variant. She can make great use of more offensive daggers like Barb Shuriken and Kagami Mochi (although they're the same thing...) and her default Poison Dagger lets her fill an anti-infantry niche. Her Res is above average which will allow her to take a hit from the slower mages in the game and kill them on retaliation. The positives end here though, her Spd is mediocre in the current meta, she lacks the defenses to become a tank like Saizo/Matthew, H!Sakura is the superior option when it comes to countering mages and Jaffar wins in the disruptor department. Kagero was one of the better units at release but with the meta shift towards dragons/armors Kagero has lost her shine and her default anti-infantry niche isn't in very high demand right now. She's another unit that is in dire need of a Prf weapon to found a more useful niche in this meta.

Rating: 4/10

[XRay]

Fuck me. I just typed an essay on here and I lost it. I think I will keep things concise this time around.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Hmmm. . .just an idea, but what if you were to run every single character in the game through your score criteria, and see how your totals pan out?  That way, you can see whether or not your scores are because the early characters are mostly mediocre, or if it's a fault in the formula.

That is a lot of work. I will do a few popular ones though and use them to calibrate the weighting. I remember doing Reinhardt, BH!Lyn, and WOF!Hinoka and they all got 7+.

I checked Ayra and she got a 4.5, while a flier like Cherche got a 6. I do think Cherche is better than Ayra (flying-Hit and Run almost feels broken), but Ayra's 4.5 does feel a bit low though. While I would not give Ayra a 6, I do think she deserves at least a 5 or 5.5 based on my gut feeling.

I agree that there is probably still some faults and kinks in the formula that I need to hammer out. It seems like I just need to weigh combat more and movement/Weapon range less, but I am not sure if it is that simple. I get the feeling that if I do not put enough weight into movement and Weapon range, armor units would dominate my scoring, which is something I definitely do not agree with.

2 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

I treat scores like how grades worked in my high school. The 70ish percent mark is "average" where I studied at. Anything that's 55% or lower is considered a failure. In other words, "bad".

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

I go with the pain scale, so 5 = average.  Because I think the school grading system is nonsense.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I see people use terms like "mediocre" to describe units they rate a 7 out of 10. There's no rule stating that we should be on the same page for our numerical ratings and the time to have made one was on Day 1.

I personally prefer the pain scale, but a lot of people seem to use the school scale. I do not think it is a huge deal which scale we use since good units will outscore bad units. I do think that we should all agree on using just one scale though, or else the average is gong to be all over the place.

I think it is easier and more expedient to just let @The Priest decide which scale to use, but we can also vote on it if he is more comfortable with that.

— — — — — — —

@The Priest, if you do not mind, can you null my votes/ratings for the rest of the week? I will still be post my ratings since I want to see how my formula compares to other's rating, but I do not want my rating to count towards the unit's final rating since I will be tweaking things around a lot.

WIP

I abstain my vote on Saizo and Kagero.

Here is how my criteria are rated:

Spoiler

Mobility:
Armor units are 0/10. Infantry units are 5/10. Cavalry units are 8/10. Flying units are 9/10. Units with unique mobility skills will bump up their score.
Range:
Melee units are 0/10. Distant Counter Weapon melee units are 5/10. Ranged units are 10/10.
Player Phase Raw Performance:
This is based on the W:L:I ratio. Enemies will have a set up of +5, +Spd, Moonbow, and Fury. The unit will be +0, may not use Breakers, and will not have Chills or Ploys activate. Units may have access to buffs (usually, +4 to any two stats for infantry and armors, and 6/6/0/0 or 0/0/6/6 for cavalry and fliers). I would also list the build used to achieve that ratio. I think the following formula is pretty reasonable:
(W%) - (L%*0.25) = Raw Performance
Player Phase Weighted Performance:
Since most units can get a raw performance score of at least 5, setting 5 as 0 for the weighted performance makes more sense in judging how good a unit is.
(Raw Performance - 5) * 2 = Weighted Performance
Player Phase Independence:
This just means how reliant the unit is on buffs. If I take off the buffs and the unit still performs pretty well, they will get a good score. The formula is that same as the raw performance:
(W%) - (L%*0.25) = Independence
Enemy Phase Raw Performance:
See Above.
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance:
See Above.
Enemy Phase Independence:
See Above.
Ease of Use:
This is an average of the mobility and range scores.
Performance:
This consolidates the weighted performance and independence scores into one score, and uses the higher of Player Phase or Enemy Phase. This also means that the build used in weighted performance may not necessarily be their best build, since there may be an alternative build with a slightly worse performance but have much higher independence.
(Weighted Performance * 0.8) + (Raw Performance * 0.1) + (Independence * 0.1) = Performance
Support:
Most units by default will be 0/10. Units with 30+ Res start from 1/10. Dagger units start from 1/10. Healers start from 2/10. Buffers start from 3/10. Fliers start from 4/10. Dancers/Singers start from 5/10. Other unique support skills may further boost their score.
Other:
If the unit has some unique application or fun build, it will be noted here. For example, since Raven mages have a performance penalty, they will get some extra points here for being relevant and viable in certain team compositions.

Familiarity/Experience:
This just means how familiar I am with this particular unit or type of unit in Arena. If it is a low number, that means you should take the following rating number with a grain of salt since I do not have much experience with this particular unit and/or type of unit.
Rating:
The rating is how good I think a unit is. Here is how I weigh each criterion:
Ease of Use 4/10
Performance: 5/10
Support: 1/10
Other: If the unit got some unique application or fun build, they will get a boost to their rating.

Notes:
1. A unit's build in raw performance will not take into account a unit's support build, Raven build, or any other builds. Likewise, a unit's ease of use, support, and other criteria will not take into account the unit's raw performance build.
2. Since healers' Firesweep build [+Atk, Pain [Dazzling Staff], Attack +3, Wrathful Staff, Attack +3] requires the user to do two rounds of combat to measure how good it is, that overwhelmingly skews the combat results for healers, so I decided to tone down their performance by using Brazen Atk/Spd-Desperation and taking away 10 HP or 25% of max HP, which ever is greater.
3. The build used in raw/weighted performance might not be the build with the best score. If there is an alternative build with a slightly less performance but much higher independence, that build will be used instead.
4. Axe and dagger versions of Wo Dao are not available in the regular summoning pool yet, but I think they will be added in the future, so I am using Giant Spoon and Lethal Carrot.

Disclosures:
I have a strong bias for non-armor Player Phase ranged units. My experience with melee and armor units in Arena is pretty minimal, so my rating for them is mostly based on theory. My Arena core consists of BH!Lyn, Reinhardt, and Olivia. I am usually in Tier 20, but I may drop to Tier 19 if I do not fish for points.

Other:

Spoiler

Template

— — — — — — — ◆Red◆ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ◾Blue◾ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ⬟Green⬟ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ●Colorless● — — — — — — —

Mobility: /10
Range: /10
Player Phase Raw Performance: /10 — #:#:#
Player Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Player Phase Independence: /10 — #:#:#
[+Boon, -Bane, Weapon, Special, A, B, Sacred Seal, #/#/#/#]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: /10 — #:#:#
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Enemy Phase Independence: /10 — #:#:#
[+Boon, -Bane, Weapon, Special, A, B, Sacred Seal, #/#/#/#]

Ease of Use: /10
Performance: /10
Support: /10
Other: /10

Familiarity/Experience: /10
Rating: /10

Summary:

_______ got bad/okay/good/stellar combat performance.

She/He can the support the team with Ploys.

She/He can support the team with daggers/Light Breath and Dark Breath.

She/He is a great mobility support unit as a flier.

She/He can also run Firesweep-Hit and Run as a flier unit.

She/He can run a Firesweep-Poison Strike-Poison Strike.

She/He can run Wrathful Staff-Dazzling Staff to emulate Firesweep archers.

She/He can run a Raven set.

— — — — — — — ◆Red◆ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ◾Blue◾ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ⬟Green⬟ — — — — — — —
— — — — — — — ●Colorless● — — — — — — —

Mobility: /10
Range: /10
Player Phase Raw Performance: /10 — #:#:#
Player Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Player Phase Independence: /10 — #:#:#
[+Boon, -Bane, Weapon, Special, A, B, Sacred Seal, #/#/#/#]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: /10 — #:#:#
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Enemy Phase Independence: /10 — #:#:#
[+Boon, -Bane, Weapon, Special, A, B, Sacred Seal, #/#/#/#]

Ease of Use: /10
Performance: /10
Support: /10
Other: /10

Familiarity/Experience: /10
Rating: /10

Summary:

_______ got bad/okay/good/stellar combat performance.

She/He can the support the team with Ploys.

She/He can support the team with daggers/Light Breath and Dark Breath.

She/He is a great mobility support unit as a flier.

She/He can also run Firesweep-Hit and Run as a flier unit.

She/He can run a Firesweep-Poison Strike-Poison Strike.

She/He can run Wrathful Staff-Dazzling Staff to emulate Firesweep archers.

She/He can run a Raven set.

 

— — — — — — — ●Saizo● — — — — — — —

Mobility: 5/10
Range: 5/10
Player Phase Raw Performance: /10 — 109:20:124
Player Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Player Phase Independence: /10 — 39:21:193
[+Spd, -Def, Barb Shuriken [Spd], Moonbow, Swift Sparrow, Desperation, Speed +3, 4/4/0/0]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: /10 — 126:18:109
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Enemy Phase Independence: /10 — 88:32:133
[+Spd, -Def, Lethal Carrot [Spd], Moonbow, Close Counter, Quick Riposte, Speed +3, 4/0/0/4]

Ease of Use: 5/10
Performance: /10
Support: 1/10
Other: 0/10

Familiarity/Experience: /10
Rating: /10

Summary:

Saizo got bad/okay/good/stellar combat performance. He can support the team with daggers.

— — — — — — — ●Kagero● — — — — — — —

Mobility: 5/10
Range: 5/10
Player Phase Raw Performance: /10 — 160:18:75
Player Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Player Phase Independence: /10 — 52:18:183
[+Spd, -Res, Barb Shuriken [Spd], Moonbow, Swift Sparrow, Desperation, Speed +3, 4/4/0/0]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: /10 — 164:69:20
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Enemy Phase Independence: /10 — 120:87:46
[+Spd, -Res, Lethal Carrot [Spd], Moonbow, Close Counter, Quick Riposte, Speed +3, 4/4/0/0]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: /10 — 170:52:31
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Enemy Phase Independence: /10 — 120:87:46
[+Spd, -Res, Lethal Carrot [Spd], Moonbow, Close Counter, Quick Riposte, Speed +3, 4/0/4/0]
Enemy Phase Raw Performance: /10 — 152:32:69
Enemy Phase Weighted Performance: /10
Enemy Phase Independence: /10 — 120:87:46
[+Spd, -Res, Lethal Carrot [Spd], Moonbow, Close Counter, Quick Riposte, Speed +3, 0/4/4/0]

Ease of Use: 5/10
Performance: /10
Support: 1/10
Other: 0/10

Familiarity/Experience: /10
Rating: /10

Summary:

Kagero got bad/okay/good/stellar combat performance. She can support the team with daggers.

[Radiant Dragon]

5 hours ago, The Priest said:

@Anacybele Won't count your Frederick vote. It is possible to do constructive explainations without letting your bias show in such an obvious manner.
Your vote for Cherche is fine though.

This is very unfair towards Ana. It's not right to discount her vote just because her love of Frederick is well known. While her write up was glowing, it certainly wasn't that unreasonable, and her rating of 8.5 isn't crazy (unlike a couple of the ratings for Nowi a couple of days ago), nor was it even that much higher than what others were giving him, since there were several other ratings of 7. 7.5 and 8 for him.

[Xenomata]

6 hours ago, The Priest said:

Won't count your Frederick vote. It is possible to do constructive explainations without letting your bias show in such an obvious manner.

I really don't think that's fair in any way.

It's completely possible for a person to be constructive about their favorite unit and still lavish praise on them at the same time, for instance I personally had a rating for Frederick down myself (8/10, a good unit with enough diversity in possible playstyles for whatever the player needs. His biggest problem is that he doesn't have competition or anyone to really compare him fairly to), and while I'm not quite as biased as @Anacybele, I still hold Frederick in higher regard than I feel most do.

I'm not going to say that Anacy was perfect in their rating, because looking it over they did somewhat gush a little TOO much, to the point it kind of bled into their rating of Cherche (7.5/10, performs a similar role to Frederick minus solid defenses, but with flying advantage. What makes me rank her lower is that unlike Frederick, she does have competition as an Axe flier, most of which have niches one can argue make Cherche a less favorable option), but what do you expect, we're denizens of the internet, not professional critics. Plus, you do sometimes want that when reviewing a unit, because otherwise you would never get any deeper understanding of a unit if you just asked random people what they thought of them. I, for one, would never have even thought Frederick could be a defensive unit had I never seen Anacy's Freddybear.

(The reason I never gave my rating when I had the chance is because I thought others, Anacy included, did a better job explaining in simpler to understand terms, compared to the freaking high school essay I had typed out, what I felt made Frederick and Cherche great units.)

Edited May 29, 2018 by Xenomata

[Anacybele]

30 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I really don't think that's fair in any way.

It's completely possible for a person to be constructive about their favorite unit and still lavish praise on them at the same time, for instance I personally had a rating for Frederick down myself (8/10, a good unit with enough diversity in possible playstyles for whatever the player needs. His biggest problem is that he doesn't have competition or anyone to really compare him fairly to), and while I'm not quite as biased as @Anacybele, I still hold Frederick in higher regard than I feel most do.

I'm not going to say that Anacy was perfect in their rating, because looking it over they did somewhat gush a little TOO much, to the point it kind of bled into their rating of Cherche (7.5/10, performs a similar role to Frederick minus solid defenses, but with flying advantage. What makes me rank her lower is that unlike Frederick, she does have competition as an Axe flier, most of which have niches one can argue make Cherche a less favorable option), but what do you expect, we're denizens of the internet, not professional critics. Plus, you do sometimes want that when reviewing a unit, because otherwise you would never get any deeper understanding of a unit if you just asked random people what they thought of them. I, for one, would never have even thought Frederick could be a defensive unit had I never seen Anacy's Freddybear.

(The reason I never gave my rating when I had the chance is because I thought others, Anacy included, did a better job explaining in simpler to understand terms, compared to the freaking high school essay I had typed out, what I felt made Frederick and Cherche great units.)

Yeah, this. What Radiant Dragon said too.

I'm not denying that I have bias, I'm probably the biggest Frederick fangirl you'll ever see. But I really do try not to let that cloud my judgement and the only reason I brought up my own Frederick is to show what he could potentially become and why I rated him as high as I did. I actually did not expect him to be as good as he is for me, truth be told, meaning I myself even underrated him!

Bled into my rating of Cherche though? I rated her higher than you did and only slightly lower than Frederick... She might not be my choice of axe flier (I have Michalis, Minerva, and Gerome all of whom I like, so...), but I don't have any bias against her either. But if it seems like I didn't rate Cherche as fairly as I could have, well, that wasn't my intention, and I apologize for that then.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Anacybele

[Korath88]

More daggers? Alright.

Saizo

I find it a little funny how Kaze has better Atk and Spd. I thought Saizo was supposed to be the stronger but slower one. Source inaccuracy aside, Saizo has good speed at 34, as well as good physical bulk, but terrible magical bulk. His Atk is also a middling 29, preventing him from doing much meaningful damage. Defensive stats are usually less relevant for dagger units unfortunately and so his outclassed offensive stats make him seem that much worse in comparison. If you're crazy enough you could go with a CC build but that only means that he won't have his A slot to patch up his Atk stat.

4/10, could really use gen 2 BST

Kagero 

I still remember the times when she was a supposed "must promote". Unfortunately those times have passed and infantry units aren't as common, making her poison dagger build much less relevant. Offensive stats of 35/32 is still pretty great but now outclassed by Sothe. Lack of a prf makes her situation worse as she has no true niche to fall back upon. 

5/10, not the flying one

And a final note, lethal carrot builds were not considered due to my prior stance on seasonal locked weapons.

 

Regarding the argument over Frederick's rating, I feel that while bias is one thing, people tend to have far more experience using their favourite units, and have invested much more into them and thus know the unit's full potential, which if anything, makes their ratings more accurate, or at the very least, balances out the bias. (I'm still patiently waiting for Ephraim's turn to be rated)

Edited May 29, 2018 by Korath88

[Xenomata]

8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Bled into my rating of Cherche though? I rated her higher than you did and only slightly lower than Frederick... She might not be my choice of axe flier (I have Michalis, Minerva, and Gerome all of whom I like, so...), but I don't have any bias against her either. But if it seems like I didn't rate Cherche as fairly as I could have, well, that wasn't my intention, and I apologize for that then.

I just mean even once the subject of Frederick was over, he still found mention under Cherche's rating, not that "I adore Frederick, therefore all other axes are inferior". And again, my personal lower rating of Cherche is because she has had competition for Flying Axe even since game launch, and they are all competent competition, compared to Frederick only recently getting competition, and he still has a solid reason to be picked over them.

I mean, I like Freddy and Cherche as units equally. How I feel about them performance wise is a matter that I now kinda wish I saved that essay for...