Class Improvements going in to FE Switch?

[Mandokarla]

Of the existing classes / class archetypes in Fire Emblem, how would you improve their viability? How would you make that class / those classes more appealing to spend a unit slot on for the next FE game? 

For example, I've long held that the Thief -> Assassin path is weak and only occasionally useful outside of GBA (GBA Thieves were very, very nice to have. FE8 rogues are a favorite class of mine). This is for several reasons: Base thieves have weak combat (which is reasonable, and makes sense), actual thief utility in most of the recent games has been on the low side -- namely due to the removal of the Steal mechanic, and the Lethality skill that only Assassin's and Master Ninja's get is all but completely useless. 

What are the goals of a thief or assassin, and how do they achieve those goals? Stealth, cunning, and timing. I would improve these classes by implementing the following skill choices (I will use the Awakening / Fates skill system, because that's the most likely to stay):

Spoiler

Change Locktouch to Light Touch at level 1, keeping locktouch functionality and returning the Steal option/mechanic. It was a fun mechanic that had some creative applications in the games it appeared in. It also makes sense thematically. 

At level 10, let's bring back the shade skill from Tellius -- and make it actually work noticeably this time. I propose that we change Shade so that if the user hasn't attacked this turn, s/he will not be targeted by enemy units that turn, as long as they are more than 2-3 spaces away from the user. Thieves are a class archetype in gaming and storytelling that has relied on stealth and not brute force -- and Fire Emblem has pretty much totally failed to capture that idea. 

For Assassins, because Rogues are all but doomed to gather dust as a class, there are harder decisions. The purpose of the assassin archetype is to flank the enemy using stealth, and eliminate a key target efficiently.  To that end, I propose changing Lethality from an improbable-at-best one shot kill skill, to a skill that encourages flanking. When the Assassin targets a unit, and that target has another ally adjacent to it, grant the Assassin a flat crit bonus of 35%. Alternatively, grant this bonus when there are no nearby allies, to capture the lone assassin flanking fantasy. 

What class archetypes would you guys like to see improved for the next game, and how would you do it? Preferably without outright breaking the game, though I know my idea above comes close to that. 

[Re: The weirdo.]

Interesting idea, but i don't think that's the main problem with assassins, as every incarnation of them ,and i include M.ninjas for that, has existed in games where many units can ORKO fairly reliably, and that enemies would need to be toned up to have even have a PURPOSE in the game. plus stealth doesnt really mesh well with FE.

i think that they should just pack up the thief class alongside assassins and just have lock picks be non class specific, and do "effective damage" to locks based on the skill stat, as that would be far more dynamic and progression focused than just occasionally having to bring a thief if there are chests or doors that you need opened. this would force locks in general to be reworked to having HP , instead of just click and its unlocked, but i think that would just massively improve the game in general.

As for my own ideas for reworking a class, its not that i want horses to be stupid, but i kinda want jugdral style canto back, since I've played that a LOT recently ,though, that is strictly a terrible idea. my other thoughts on mounts are that i want them to be split by weapon type again like in jugdral and tellius. specifically, i want more axe cavs though, as they resonate with me for some reason. maybe because they kick ass. or that they look cool. or that it makes no sense historically. probably a combination of those factors.

For some other classes, i'd probably want mages to have a mount on promo like in fe8.

thats all i got 

[Modamy]

I can’t make too long a post since I’m on my break, but an issue I have had with fire emblem classes for a while is that most of them lack any kind of niche that gives you a real reason to use the class. I’ve had the idea that armor knights should take half damage from all physical attacks floating around my head for a while. Doing this would solidify their role as the tanks in fire emblem even if they are slow and would incentivize players to use mages to take them down since mages are supposed to have the niche of attacking resistance, a star that most units lack in buy units in my re recent games have had more res so mages have kind of lost their niche.

[NPR]

I wouldn't say this is an improvement, but as far as balancing goes I would like the implementation of something like trenches so that cavalry units aren't super OP. MOV is often seen as one of the most important stats in the game. By having environmental tiles that are harder for mounted units to travel over it could help increase the viability of other units.

As far as actual class improvements, archer class units should have some form of close counter. It doesn't even have to be off their full strength stat, it can be a fraction of it if need be. I am just tired of having any unit, aside from maybe the cleric/priest, being entirely useless on enemy phase. 

As far as the assassin class goes, I mostly like them as they are in Fates. Debuffing is an interesting niche that needs to be explored a bit more. That being said, I can see them experimenting with an assassin class getting an effective against bonus on armored units whose speed they double or something like that. I can imagine the in-game justification to be that the assassin is too fast for the armored unit to deal with. Now that I have said that though, the idea sounds way too niche.

 

[Von Ithipathachai]

I would turn Rogues into a weapon master class for Daggers, giving them a 15% Critical bonus like Swordmasters and Berserkers in addition to Locktouch.  Furthermore, have Rogues specialize in Speed, while Assassins specialize in Resistance like Master Ninjas in Fates.

Also, if Warriors come back, give them a huge boost in Skill so that if they have to be slower than Berserkers, they can at least be a lot more accurate.

[OakTree]

I've had some ideas recently, these aren't made to make every single class equal as much as it is to just make the difference in ease of use between classes less big, some of these ideas are probably very stupid and would completely break the balance of the game, and if they are, feel free to call me out on it:

• Forest tiles only slows down classes with horses.
• Thieves have Steal again, and the act of opening chests now grants EXP, giving 30 EXP while Steal gives 50 EXP.
• Thieves also gain acess to bows or some other ranged weapon at base, Thieves are fragile, and if they're going to do combat, it may as well be from a safe distance.
• Archers get extra EXP for chipping compared to other classes, althrough EXP for kills remains the same.
• Armor Knights get swords at base and full Weapon Triangle acess as Generals.
• Armor Knights get two class skills, the first simply doubles the EXP that Armor Knights get during the enemy phase in order to incentivize their use as deffensive tanks,  the second makes it so that during the enemy phase, when the enemy attacks an ally adjacent to the Armor Knight, they will duel the Armor Knight instead, to balance it, it only happens once per enemy phase so the player doesn't just make four of their glass canons and staff users just sit next to the Armor Knight every time.
• Dismount is back, Cavaliers and Paladins get swordlocked, and every other mounted class is locked to their base primary weapon (So for example, a Dark Flier would be lancelocked).

Edited May 7, 2018 by OakTree

[Shrimpica]

19 minutes ago, NPR said:

As far as actual class improvements, archer class units should have some form of close counter

 No. Instead of removing Archers weakness, we should buff their strength instead. Making em Physical mages is a bad idea.

Example: Their Range could be buffed (2-3 normal bows for example), or they could always have wta at 2 range, or etc. 

1 Range Archers is one of the worst that can be done to em.

[Modamy]

Now that I’m on my lunch I have time to actually respond to other people. I haven’t liked how they’ve treated thieves like it’s a fighting class recently. It’s supposed to be a utility class and while assassin gives them the chance to fight the class is typically pretty poor in comparison to other combat focused classes. I would also like to see the return of the rogue class as the main promotion of thieves along with their steal command. Thieves being able to open doors, chests, and as an added bonus steal from opponents was awesome and it was all they needed, where the hell did it come from that they HAD to be good at killing as well.

I actually like cavaliers having canto back as well since it further emphasizes their better mobility than other classes. The big issue I have with the class is that it’s given too much along with that movement. They usually have two different weapon types and really good and well rounded stats that end up making them stupid overpowered in comparison to everything else. I’ve said it a few other times in other threads, but mounted units need something to stand out, but so do each of the infantry classes so that they can stand out and be worth using alongside mounts.

Lastly I think archers should get 2-5 range. I don’t think they should be able to fight at close range and it should be enough for them to attack without fear of counterattack (aside from other archers). They’ve shown in Echoes just how powerful it is to have that range alone, they don’t really need the added bonus of 1 range attacks on top of that. They also just need the raw stats to not be completely trash in conparison to other classes.

[OakTree]

3 minutes ago, Modamy said:

I actually like cavaliers having canto back as well since it further emphasizes their better mobility than other classes. The big issue I have with the class is that it’s given too much along with that movement. They usually have two different weapon types and really good and well rounded stats that end up making them stupid overpowered in comparison to everything else. I’ve said it a few other times in other threads, but mounted units need something to stand out, but so do each of the infantry classes so that they can stand out and be worth using alongside mounts.

Do you mean GBA Canto or Console Canto?

[Modamy]

1 minute ago, OakTree said:

Do you mean GBA Canto or Console Canto?

Canto in the console games was the strongest version of it ( whether or not you mean jugdral or tellius) and I think that’s the most fun I have with mounted units so I would like to see that version make its return. Although as you @NPR stated there should be terrain that hurts mount movement more than infantry classes.

[Shrimpica]

8 minutes ago, Modamy said:

Canto in the console games was the strongest version of it ( whether or not you mean jugdral or tellius) and I think that’s the most fun I have with mounted units so I would like to see that version make its return.

Console Canto was one of the main reasons they were so op in FE4 and Tellius tho.

I propose 3 versions of Canto: Normal Canto (GBA), Super Canto (Tellius, FE5) and Ultra Canto (FE4, allows weapon equipping after attacking)

All mounts have normal Canto as a base ability. On Promotion, some Mounts gain Super Canto as Lvl5 skill (Valkyria for example, as they then can heal and then gtfo). One Mounted Class gains Ultra Canto on Lvl15/Ultra Skill (Great Knights for example). This will differentiate mounts between each other, as well as make them have less skills then infantry unit because they have to sacrifice a slot for Canto.

[Modamy]

2 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Console Canto was one of the main reasons they were so op in FE4 and Tellius tho.

I propose 3 versions of Canto: Normal Canto (GBA), Super Canto (Tellius, FE5) and Ultra Canto (FE4, allows weapon equipping after attacking)

All mounts have normal Canto as a base ability. On Promotion, some Mounts gain Super Canto as Lvl5 skill (Valkyria for example, as they then can heal and then gtfo). One Mounted Class gains Ultra Canto on Lvl15/Ultra Skill (Great Knights for example). This will differentiate mounts between each other, as well as make them have less skills then infantry unit because they have to sacrifice a slot for Canto.

I don’t know about having three different variants of canto that change depending on promotion I think the super canto version is fine for all mounts. I just can’t stress enough how much other classes need abilities inherent to only them in order to match up to the already OP mounted classes.

Also as an addition to the 2-5 range (or at least 2-3 range while unprompted) I think archers should have. I think mounted archers ( should they make a return) should have less range than infantry archers to show they aren’t as accurate while fighting on horseback as well as to give them less of an edge over infantry since they would have the range as well as canto.

[X-Naut]

Swordmaster and Rogue/Assassin are redundant in games where the Thief promo lacks a sidearm, and the SM class is pretty meh in itself outside of being flashy. I say bring back the Thief Fighter class with the traits of both the SM's combat and the Rogue's utility; there's plenty of precedent throughout history of swordfighters using dirty tactics to gain the upper hand in battle. And drop the Myrmidon class, Mercenary and Thief give us enough sword infantry.

If Halberdier returns, give it an exclusive skill that lets it act out of mobility assists (Swap, Shove etc.) and gives it a few of these commands for free.

Give Sniper or whatever the bow-lock class is Range+1 as an exclusive skill, Archer too if Hunter a la Archanea returns.

In fact I think every class needs an exclusive skill to it to give it niche use, and some skills should be more limited in what classes can use them.

[Michelaar]

Give thieves access to daggers and not swords. Daggers make so much more sense for them and make other classes less redundant.

[Shrimpica]

In the case of Archers and Thiefs, i would like to point to 2 fangames where i liked what they did:

Thiefs: FE7x https://imgur.com/a/I5u7G57

In FE7x thiefs can use Swords, however they get 1-2 range with them for the Price of lowered might. Makes them carve their own Niche and be useful while not stealing (which is usually the case in FE where Thiefs only Steal/Lockpick and that's it)

Archers: The Lion Throne https://imgur.com/a/f4odAAU

Archers in that Fangame were really scary, while still retaining their 1 RNG weakness. Made them unique, strong, while still having a niche, and being made of paper def wise.

FE7x also had an Archer buff, although in a different form:  in FE7x Bows always have advantage at 2 range, while always have WTD at 1 range. This way buffs could be applied without making Archer physical Mages

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Non combat applications for classes would definitely help, so I support thieves being able to steal items like stat boosters and elixers. More buffs and debuffs from existing classes would be appreciated as well. The rescue mechanic also helped made fliers relevant outside of fighting, which they used to be quite poor at. I often rag on 3DS era for focusing too much on bringing back classic skills and classes, but here's a scenario where bringing mechanics back from previous games may actually improve the gameplay variety. I'd even support the return of Canto, within reason. Like if you want to move, attack, and spend the rest of your movement, then your attack must carry a penalty where you can't double the opponent and are more susceptible to doubles from having to turn your back on an opponent for a retreat.

[Hawkwing]

Depending on the games balance, I would like to see archers have a 2-3 or a 2-5 range, and they shouldn't have the ability to attack at 1 range. I'm debating whether to let them defend at 1 range though.

For Knights, I'd say give their armor status an actual buff instead of it just being a weakness. I would personally give them a skill (that you activate) that reduces their speed and avoidance in return for increased strength and defense. If personal skills return, have the ones for armor units be built to take advantage around their starting class. It doesn't need to be huge, just have stuff like "Doesn't take off a stave use when one is used on them" or "All stats +1 each time they are attacked during the enemy phase" or "Can force enemies to attack them regardless of other units in range," etc. Also, have some of the map design take advantage of the fact that you have highly defensive units. I remember when playing FE3 that in Book 1, Draug actually had a use on some maps, even if you had to warp him to the location.

For Fighters, just give them more skill and speed. Not enough to break the game or make them frustrating to fight, but make it so their weakness isn't so blatantly obvious or easy to take advantage of. Again, map design and unit variety also plays a factor. I barely used Vaike in Awakening because the early game has very few lance users as opponents, and you have enough sword units to combat the amount of enemy axe users, while I used Garcia and Ross fairly often in FE8 (even though I haven't beaten the game yet) because the game is generous with the amount of axe and lance units you face early on.

I also wouldn't mind seeing cantors return, just have the summoning cost a lot more HP. Not enough where they don't fill their niche, but enough that enemy can't spam them over and over.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Hawkwing

[Modamy]

14 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

Depending on the games balance, I would like to see archers have a 2-3 or a 2-5 range, and they shouldn't have the ability to attack at 1 range. I'm debating whether to let them defend at 1 range though.

For Knights, I'd say give their armor status an actual buff instead of it just being a weakness. I would personally give them a skill (that you activate) that reduces their speed and avoidance in return for increased strength and defense. If personal skills return, have the ones for armor units be built to take advantage around their starting class? It doesn't need to be huge, just have stuff like "Doesn't take of stave uses when one is used on them" or "All stats +1 each time they are attacked during the enemy phase" or "Can force enemies to attack them regardless of other units in range," etc. Also, have some of the map design take advantage of the fact that you have high defensive units. I remember when playing FE3 in Book 1 that Draug actually had a use on some maps, even if you had to warp him to the location.

For Fighters, just give them more skill and speed. Not enough to break the game or make them frustrating to fight, but make it so their weakness isn't so blatantly obvious or easy to take advantage of. Again, map design and unit variety also plays a factor. I barely used Vaike in Awakening because the early game has very few lance users as opponents, and you have enough sword units to combat the amount of enemy axe users, while I used Garcia and Ross fairly often in FE8 (even though I haven't beaten the game yet) because the game is generous with the amount of axe and lance units you face early on.

I also wouldn't mind seeing cantors return, just have the summoning cost a lot more HP. Not enough where they don't fill their niche, but enough that enemy doesn't spam them over and over.

I’ve always thought it was funny that being mounted or a flier meant something other than a weakness, but being armored usually just meant stay the hell away from armorslayers, hammers, and heavy spears. I also completely agree with you that the map design in future games definitely needs to be made to better utilize lower movements no to allow tanks to keep enemies away from your other units.

[NPR]

3 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

 No. Instead of removing Archers weakness, we should buff their strength instead. Making em Physical mages is a bad idea.

Example: Their Range could be buffed (2-3 normal bows for example), or they could always have wta at 2 range, or etc. 

1 Range Archers is one of the worst that can be done to em.

The key difference with my proposal is that mages can still initiate from one space away, but archers still couldn't. Additionally, my proposed atk nerf would still dissuade people from using them as enemy turn units. I don't want them to be standing at choke points killing dudes on the backswing, I just want them to be able to do some chip damage to whoever initiates from one space away.

I suppose you can give everyone a longbow ability upon promotion, but I would be more concerned with that than just giving them a countering ability for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I'm not sure if I would want every enemy sniper to have that sort of range. Secondly, and I suppose this is tied to my first point, it feels like having innate 3 range units would make map design a lot trickier. If they can pull it off without compromising playability or limiting their map design options I would be on board though. Radiant Dawn's tier 3 promotion system comes to mind as a way to make that happen, but that is so late into the game that we fall back on the question of why anyone would invest in an archer in the first place.

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

For me it's:

-Give Theifs daggers replace swords promotion either keep staffs or replace with bows since we got infantry and mounted healers. Make them get steal again.

-Archer class tree once promoted internally gains +1 bow range.

-Cavalier classes internally keeps Canto on them.

-Falcon Knights gets swords back as secondary weapons.

-Soldier/Halbadiers has abilities to alter positions with other units.

-A little bit more skill and speed to fighters. 

-Give Staff units offensive staffs like Heroes but not too OP.

-In general I feel each class should have an internal benefit to having around(not counting personal/skills since these are expected.

[colossus86]

Just some random thoughts ive had for various classes

For knights i was thinking maybe take a page out of Heroes' book and give them a class skill that causes them to take massively reduced damage to follow up attacks. Another idea is to have them take reduced damage from bows/daggers since unless you have godlike aim piercing projectiles don't really work against full plate armor.

For archers i definitely agree that something has to be done with their range. Echoes was the first FE game i've ever played where i felt like i needed archers and a large part of that was simply that they out-ranged mages and that was extremely valuable

I would like to see Canto make a comeback but as far as balancing mounted units goes, i think that's going to have to come down to level design. Most FE levels are kill everyone or kill the boss (and given the location bosses are usually placed in it can be argued those two are functionally the same) and that sort of offensive objective inherently favors mobility. I think making horses not able to move through trees, adding trenches, and continuing with flyers not getting terrain bonuses would be a step in the right direction.

I was also thinking about giving priests more utility like stat buffs, shields, maybe the ability to lay traps or temporary impassible terrain like FE7

Another thought i had was to maybe give Swords masters some sort of advantage against other sword users. As things stand now, other than skills (which may or may not have even come from your current class if the Awakening/Fates system is kept) there is no functional difference between a sword wielding Hero and a Swords master and considering how valuable versatility is, that can make the class really underwhelming. So maybe they could get some bonus when fighting non SM sword users as a way to have them stand out and really put the master is Swords master

One idea for Soldiers, assuming they stick around, is the idea of a "spear wall" ie getting bonuses for being adjacent to other lance equipped units. Another possibility i've heard is maybe giving them a skill that gives bonus damage to mounts if the mount initiates on them

[Shadow Mir]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:11 AM, Mandokarla said:

For example, I've long held that the Thief -> Assassin path is weak and only occasionally useful outside of GBA (GBA Thieves were very, very nice to have. FE8 rogues are a favorite class of mine). This is for several reasons: Base thieves have weak combat (which is reasonable, and makes sense), actual thief utility in most of the recent games has been on the low side -- namely due to the removal of the Steal mechanic, and the Lethality skill that only Assassin's and Master Ninja's get is all but completely useless. 

I do agree that Lethality was nigh useless, but other than the occasional gem, stat booster or promotion item, stealing was not very useful in the games where you couldn't steal weapons.

 

On 5/7/2018 at 5:41 PM, Blade Lord Lyn said:

Falcon Knights gets swords back as secondary weapons.

And what in the hell is that going to do for them, besides make them into Paladins with flight, huh? Not that that's a bad thing, but I seldom saw swords on Falcon Knights as very useful.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Von Ithipathachai]

34 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And what in the hell is that going to do for them, besides make them into Paladins with flight, huh? Not that that's a bad thing, but I seldom saw swords on Falcon Knights as very useful.

I still think they're better off with Swords than with Staves.  Unless you grind heavily, a Falcon Knight isn't going to be nearly as good with a Staff as a class with actual high Magic.

[Modamy]

3 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I still think they're better off with Swords than with Staves.  Unless you grind heavily, a Falcon Knight isn't going to be nearly as good with a Staff as a class with actual high Magic.

I would say in most games the base power of the staff itself is more than enough to make up for the low magic of the unit using it so it really isn’t that bad for them to use staves.

[Von Ithipathachai]

1 minute ago, Modamy said:

I would say in most games the base power of the staff itself is more than enough to make up for the low magic of the unit using it so it really isn’t that bad for them to use staves.

I dunno.  I'm just going to say I've never found myself using Falcon Knights for healing that often.