Fire emblem and "modern" anime trends

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Comparing Fates with Isekai... I wonder how I didn't think it before... It makes a lot of the sense in the hindsight xD

Freaking Isekais... there are some many of them and just a few are worth reading/watching.

well speaking of isekai that's exactly what heroes is isekai. I mean fates' story is an isekai without the actual isekai but then heroes takes it a step further by actually being isekai. I mean I'm more okay with it in heroes because the story isn't as grandiose and I don't really give two sh*ts about the plot anyway so yeah.

[Slumber]

I hate it. 

Actually, as somebody who has started watching anime again just recently, I hate how it's "too lowest common denominator". 

I agree that Fire Emblem has always been anime to some degree. But the uber pandering to Otaku culture that's become a lot more common in anime that Fire Emblem has picked up on is on a whole other level. 

As much as Fire Emblem has always been anime, before Fates, and to a lesser degree Awakening, I never felt like FE was piggy-backing off of specific trends in anime. The argument that Tellius is basically a Shonen does actually make some sense, but I can't say that FE9 and 10 were really hurt by this, as it seemed to pull from the right places.

Fates on the other hand? It is absolutely piggy-backing off of the same lazy tropes and trends that every bad light-novel adaptation uses for easy money. Because they know there's a large fanbase that likes the pure escapism and ego stroking. The kind that want to live in their ideal world where they're the hero, and everyone loves them and they can have all of the girls/boys. I don't know how this crowd has so much disposable income, but I digress. 

It actually makes me less angry and more sad the more I think about it. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Slumber

[Jave]

Eh, I don't mind. I honestly don't think that what the current games are doing is that different from what the previous games did, as in following the popular anime trends. I still remember when Tellius was heavily criticized for bringing "furries" into the series, which is no different of the criticism the current games are getting on fanservice.

Also, maybe because I was a Latin American raised in the 90s, my perception of anime is probably a bit different.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Jave said:

Eh, I don't mind. I honestly don't think that what the current games are doing is that different from what the previous games did, as in following the popular anime trends. I still remember when Tellius was heavily criticized for bringing "furries" into the series, which is no different of the criticism the current games are getting on fanservice.

Also, maybe because I was a Latin American raised in the 90s, my perception of anime is probably a bit different.

"Furries" aren't really an anime thing. People with animal-like qualities have been around forever, including in anime going back way further than the mid-00s. Things like Koto and Juri from YYH and Felicia from Darkstalkers were early 90s.

PoR got shit for having furries not because that was "anime", but because furries got real big in general in the west in the mid-00s. So when people in the west saw furries in Fire Emblem, well. It pushed some buttons.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Slumber

[Modamy]

1 hour ago, Jave said:

Eh, I don't mind. I honestly don't think that what the current games are doing is that different from what the previous games did, as in following the popular anime trends. I still remember when Tellius was heavily criticized for bringing "furries" into the series, which is no different of the criticism the current games are getting on fanservice.

Also, maybe because I was a Latin American raised in the 90s, my perception of anime is probably a bit different.

I don't know anything on the furries thing, but when it comes to following current popular anime trends it leads to definite issues with the narrative since isekai power fantasies are what's big now and have completely over saturated anime, manga, light novels, and it seems like their making their way into Japanese video games. Isekai stories aside from some good ones like Re:Zero follow the same rough outline and do very little at all to build from it or give it any real depth since the most common denominator doesn't care. I don't think Isekai stories were super popular when Fates came out, but it's definitely picked since and I feel like those teenage boy power fantasies even had some influence on Echoes since one of the few things separating Alm and Corrin is that you can't redesign Alm.

[NPR]

Awakening level fan-service is tolerable for me, but it isn't something I particularly want either. Fates pushed that way too far over the top and I can safely say that I won't even buy a game like that again. There is a reason I never played #FE or whatever you call it. I literally can't stand it. Not because it is 'too anime,' but because it is tacky, tone deaf, and reduces characters that can already be somewhat one noted into straight up sex objects. Be honest, out of Camilla's massive fanbase, how many do you think really JUST appreciate her for her 'complexity.' The answer is basically nobody. Not only that, on average, I believe people that do appreciate her for her character do so in spite of her particularly fan-service-y nature.

On another note, there are quite a few people that are trying to run some kind of equivalence between the level of fan service we have now and what the series has had before. That is wrong. There may have been undertones that were equally racy, but when it comes to Fates, fan service and anime troupes are infecting the game so completely that they are impacting the narrative integrity of the game. (rant incoming)

Everybody at Nintendo seemed to be too busy figuring out how to make a more popular face to be pet than to actually weave a cohesive story together, or for that matter, create a likeable protagonist. In fairness, that is a little hard to do when one of their key features is taking people into a backroom for molestation, but wow does Corrin fall into the trap of a stupid visual novel self insert character who always says the literal worst thing at any given moment. People complain about Robin, but at least the guy seemed to have his act together. Corrin even seems to fail at being a self insert because he HAD TO be a top tier anime boi moron. That kind of anime troupe in FE needs to be dealt away with immediately.

Being introduced to your 'hot twin maid girls' at the start of the whole thing is a far cry from Lyn waking the self-insert mark up on the plains. Entirely different implications. Not only that, but I feel as if the misogyny got kicked up to 11 somehow in Fates where the female characters are intentionally made to be thought more of as sex objects through the use of forced perspective like when you run into a certain character's boobs, or are CONSTANTLY given body shots in cut scenes. Or how Felicia is OMG such a CLUTZ l0LZ. Or how your sister not sister is TOTALLY 18. Like, these are things that SORT OF happen in other FE games, but they aren't highlighted, they aren't on display, they aren't the most prominent things you will see when you play through the games and if you choose to play casually without digging too deep you won't even find much of that in other FE. In Fates that is your big take away from the entire game. The plot feels like a means to drive more fan service than it does to advance the narrative. *I'm looking at you not blood siblings reveal.* *And you children that are only relevant after 3 games and DLC*

So I guess, yeah, you can have weird somewhat fanservice like troupes in Fire Emblem, why not, people are weird, you can have a little bit of weird stuff, or just normal sexy stuff, but don't make it one of the most prominent features of the game. That not only doesn't feel real, it compromises the experience to a lot of people by making it almost feel like a social stigma to play what is known as 'that weird fan service waifu simulator battle game.'

[Jave]

18 minutes ago, Slumber said:

"Furries" aren't really an anime thing. People with animal-like qualities have been around forever, including in anime going back way further than the mid-00s. Things like Koto and Juri from YYH and Felicia from Darkstalkers were early 90s.

PoR got shit for having furries not because that was "anime", but because furries got real big in general in the west in the mid-00s. So when people in the west saw furries in Fire Emblem, well. It pushed some buttons.

You're not wrong, but my point is, as someone who was in the fanbase when the Tellius games were new, people were definitely using the "furry" monicker and linking it to "anime" in order to badmouth the Tellius games.

A lot of times, when people use the concept of "too anime", it's usually because of generalizations that are widely exaggerated or don't apply to anime as a whole.

EDIT: Also I have no idea what "Isekai" means (gonna Google it when I'm in the mood) so I can't comment much on that.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Jave

[Modamy]

12 minutes ago, Jave said:

EDIT: Also I have no idea what "Isekai" means (gonna Google it when I'm in the mood) so I can't comment much on that.

Sorry, Isekai means "another world" in Japanese and has become the name of a "new" genre in manga, anime, and light novels where the main character travels to another world. The quotations should point out that this type of story has existed for a long time in all sorts of media and not just in Japan, but it has become insanely popular in recent years. The rough outline of these stories are MC goes to another world, his ignorance is used as an excuse for exposition instead of more natural world building, he finds out he has a special power no one else has, everyone proceeds to kiss his ass, and those who don't are either evil, or assholes and they'll be killed later (or just join the massive harem, but not if their guys (unless their guy that look like girls (so it's totally not gay))).

My point is its a story outline full of lazy and lowbrow tropes all for the sake of pandering to their target audience as opposed to just writing a decent story.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Modamy
Forgot to add my point

[Jave]

2 minutes ago, Modamy said:

Sorry, Isekai means "another world" in Japanese and has become the name of a "new" genre in manga, anime, and light novels where the main character travels to another world. The quotations should point out that this type of story has existed for a long time in all sorts of media and not just in Japan, but it has become insanely popular in recent years. The rough outline of these stories are MC goes to another world, his ignorance is used as an excuse for exposition instead of more natural world building, he finds out he has a special power no one else has, everyone proceeds to kiss his ass, and those who don't are either evil, or assholes and they'll be killed later (or just join the massive harem, but not if their guys (unless their guy that look like girls (so it's totally not gay))).

Man, now I really feel like I'm out of the loop. I've watched very little anime in the past decade (at 35 years old, real life has finally kicked in), and I can't really think of one that fits the description above.

Maybe I should start watching some stuff.

[Modamy]

2 minutes ago, Jave said:

Man, now I really feel like I'm out of the loop. I've watched very little anime in the past decade (at 35 years old, real life has finally kicked in), and I can't really think of one that fits the description above.

Maybe I should start watching some stuff.

It's a pretty recent trend and while there are some diamonds in the rough like Re:Zero or KonoSuba it not really worth looking at too much unless you just want mindless fan service which, I'll admit, is okay once in a while.

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, Modamy said:

It's a pretty recent trend and while there are some diamonds in the rough like Re:Zero or KonoSuba it not really worth looking at too much unless you just want mindless fan service which, I'll admit, is okay once in a while.

Re:Zero is a deconstruction and KonoSuba is a parody. There's really... like, not a single actual good Isekai. I hear Overlord is good, but I hear that it also skirts the line more of being a deconstruction than a sincere Isekai.

Re:Creators is probably the closest the genre gets to being good, but the whole idea there is that if the inverse of Isekais happened(Fictional characters coming to the real world), it'd damn near be the apocalypse. It's almost like an anti-Isekai.

But yeah, Fates essentially being an Isekai is a good way to put it. Corrin, as a player Avatar, is a prince/princess who has been secluded from the whole world. Once the player takes control, the world opens up to the player, and now they can touch all the faces and kiss all the pretty anime waifus/husbandos they want while everyone else who should know better bends to Corrin, because he/she is just such a special snowflake that only they can save the world. With incest tones kicked up to 11 and sexy maids thrown in your face right off the bat to make sure nobody expects anything tasteful in this escapist fantasy for people who are constantly horny but can't get laid.

It's a stone's throw away from SAO.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Slumber

[Strullemia]

5 hours ago, Jave said:

Man, now I really feel like I'm out of the loop. I've watched very little anime in the past decade (at 35 years old, real life has finally kicked in), and I can't really think of one that fits the description above.

Maybe I should start watching some stuff.

I recommend against it. Aside from the already mentioned Re Zero and Konosuba a lot of Isekai stories are stories where a character is transported and is a nice guy who attracts all of the girls and is overpowered OR the MC gets transported (and weak) but there's some edgy twist in it that makes the story a little bit darker. (I do admit that there's a Korean LN I like that follows that formula).

[coldhand25]

29 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

I recommend against it. Aside from the already mentioned Re Zero and Konosuba a lot of Isekai stories are stories where a character is transported and is a nice guy who attracts all of the girls and is overpowered OR the MC gets transported (and weak) but there's some edgy twist in it that makes the story a little bit darker. (I do admit that there's a Korean LN I like that follows that formula).

 

5 hours ago, Jave said:

Maybe I should start watching some stuff.

Hai to Gensou no Grimgar is a really good anime - graphics, music and storywise as well. Even though I found the LN better, I cannot recommend it enough. The MC is not overpowered, and not every girl falls in love with him. Also, no harem which is always a big plus. Although the anime has one or two fanservice part, it really isn't that bad at all. For me it's definitely better than Konosuba, simply because it's not a parody of the genre, and still can offer something new. (That being said, I have nothing against Konosuba, I actually liked the first season, but still, for me no isekai anime/LN can beat Grimgar)

Edited May 11, 2018 by coldhand25
for some strange reason I left in some empty lines...

[Thane]

Being here in Japan and seeing the insane number of merchandise every famous and not so famous anime series sells, it's not hard to see where all the recent inspiration is coming from. What I don't understand is how Japan can compete for the same demographic to this extent, doing the same thing and appealing to the same crowds. Making anime and games are expensive as hell, so I can understand safe bets - which is where we see a lot of the poor quality anime come in looking to make a quick buck, I'd wager - but considering the aging population and the ever-increasing importance of the Western fanbase, the fact that Intelligent Systems seem to be chasing trends like this has me concerned and confused.

I should point out that I think Fire Emblem has always had "anime elements"; it's a series about armies of hot teenagers winning against evil empires with the power of friendship, after all. However, like many, I feel like Fates in particular pushed this far beyond any semblance of normality. I feel like the games will not only age better, but will also be much more respected and sell better in the long run if Fire Emblem tries to do its own thing and respect its audience.

That's not to say there's not room for some fan service, there's just a time and place for anything. DLC, or a fun, spin-off gacha game like Heroes? Sure, that's fine, but things like Camilla's introduction cutscene and female Generals exposing their asses is in horrible taste that just ruins the immersion.

[Shrimpica]

I hate it. I really do. Especially the Self insert worshipping part. Why can't Characters act naturally with each other anymore? Why does everything have to revolve around self-insert-sama? It's annoying.

I said it somewhere before, but tbh, i don't mind the whole ''Waifu'' thing, since Waifus always existed. However, i don't even recognize Fates' Character as Waifus, because they are just mostly walking fanservice. This is for me is much more of a turn off then it is a turn on. Waifufags might not get crazy over SoV's or older Waifus for example, but to me, SoV's girls are much more of a ''Waifu'' than whatever Fates gave us.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, coldhand25 said:

Hai to Gensou no Grimgar is a really good anime - graphics, music and storywise as well. Even though I found the LN better, I cannot recommend it enough. The MC is not overpowered, and not every girl falls in love with him. Also, no harem which is always a big plus. Although the anime has one or two fanservice part, it really isn't that bad at all. For me it's definitely better than Konosuba, simply because it's not a parody of the genre, and still can offer something new. (That being said, I have nothing against Konosuba, I actually liked the first season, but still, for me no isekai anime/LN can beat Grimgar)

Oh boy, i remember watching Grimgar and being absolutely bored out of my mind. Not the worse Isekai i've seen (that goes to Isekai Smartphone) but i just could not give a damn about any of the characters and that's the fastest way to make me lose interest in anything.

That said, i'll be going back to it one day on my quest to watch most of the Isekai anime out there, since i've recently been getting ironic enjoyment out of them because of how bad they can get. The exception to that is Konosuba, as it's the only actually good Isekai anime i've seen so far and as of the second season, it's a 10/10 in my book. Who knows, maybe my opinion on Grimgar will change.

Back on topic...

49 minutes ago, Thane said:

Making anime and games are expensive as hell, so I can understand safe bets - which is where we see a lot of the poor quality anime come in looking to make a quick buck, I'd wager - but considering the aging population and the ever-increasing importance of the Western fanbase, the fact that Intelligent Systems seem to be chasing trends like this has me concerned and confused.

I think the reason IS is chasing the trends like that is because FE, like most JRPGs, is still primarily targeted towards Japanese audiences, evidenced by all of the Japan-exclusive merch that the series has such as Cipher. That doesn't excuse Fates' writing, because you can't even blame the anime tropes for it, it's just terrible writing but i can see why IS still follows some anime trends.

But i do see your point in how it's confusing, especially given that most of FE's sales come from the West.

[Thane]

13 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I think the reason IS is chasing the trends like that is because FE, like most JRPGs, is still primarily targeted towards Japanese audiences, evidenced by all of the Japan-exclusive merch that the series has such as Cipher.

I'm well aware. The confusion comes from how I find it to be an odd decision, fighting over a slowly dwindling crowd in the same way as many other series. I'm not saying Fire Emblem has to totally reinvent itself, but moving further in this direction won't work out as well in the long run, I believe.

It's too early for doom and gloom though; I feel like we'll know more about the developers' mentality after E3. Echoes also heavily reduced the amount of questionable content that was in Fates. 

13 minutes ago, Armagon said:

That doesn't excuse Fates' writing, because you can't even blame the anime tropes for it, it's just terrible writing but i can see why IS still follows some anime trends.

I need no convincing here, my friend. It's just how the horrible writing in addition to a lot of the odd design decisions made the game feel considerably more...squicky.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Thane

[Jingle Jangle]

Doesn't bother me too much, trends come and go.

[Armagon]

16 minutes ago, Thane said:

I'm not saying Fire Emblem has to totally reinvent itself, but moving further in this direction won't work out as well in the long run, I believe.

Oh yeah, i agree. If we get another Fates, even if sells amazingly, all it'll do is just cause frustration for the fans, at least on the story front and i'd hate to see this series become known as "that one strategy JRPG with terrible stories".

But if Heroes is anything to go by, it shows that Intelligent Systems does listen to feedback, so i do feel confident that we won't get another Fates.

20 minutes ago, Thane said:

I need no convincing here, my friend. It's just how the horrible writing in addition to a lot of the odd design decisions made the game feel considerably more...squicky.

Aside from the skinship, i didn't mind the design choices that much. But it does make me wonder, if Fates actually had decent writing, even with all the weird fanservice, then how different would people's perception of the game be?

[Von Ithipathachai]

5 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Oh yeah, i agree. If we get another Fates, even if sells amazingly, all it'll do is just cause frustration for the fans, at least on the story front and i'd hate to see this series become known as "that one strategy JRPG with terrible stories".

Do people with low investment in the series as a whole (read: people who've still only played the 3DS games and haven't even considered the older ones) even pay attention to the story?

Edited May 11, 2018 by Von Ithipathachai

[Michelaar]

I feel like there are some huge generalizations going on here.

[Jingle Jangle]

2 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

I feel like there are some huge generalizations going on here.

It's because some people have confirmation bias.

[Michelaar]

4 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

It's because some people have confirmation bias.

Well it's fine. Everyone has a thing they like in Fire emblem and for me thats pretty much everything.

[Ottservia]

6 hours ago, Slumber said:

Re:Zero is a deconstruction and KonoSuba is a parody. There's really... like, not a single actual good Isekai. I hear Overlord is good, but I hear that it also skirts the line more of being a deconstruction than a sincere Isekai.

umm excuse me but by the strict definition of the genre Spirited Away can be considered isekai. I'd also consider digimon to be a pretty good show but whatever. Though I do know what you mean almost all modern isekai is just downright terrible.

 

2 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Do people with low investment in the series as a whole (read: people who've still only played the 3DS games and haven't even considered the older ones) even pay attention to the story?

I mean I paid attention to the story when I was like that(I have played sacred stones and PoR since) though honestly out of the three fates is the only one with an offensively bad story if you're asking me. Awakening's story is simple and kind of gets confused on what it wants to focus on but otherwise it's okay and echoes is pretty much in the same boat. Not terrible but not really great either and both cases it's because of the final act. 

 

11 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Aside from the skinship, i didn't mind the design choices that much. But it does make me wonder, if Fates actually had decent writing, even with all the weird fanservice, then how different would people's perception of the game be?

Fates' writing is by far it's worst aspect but otherwise it's a pretty good game. I mean the reason I like conquest so much is for the gameplay not the story. I feel people just over exaggerate the problems with fates as a whole because they're not happy with the direction the series is going. because fates has a lot of good elements such as it's gameplay but people tend to ignore that. 

49 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

I said it somewhere before, but tbh, i don't mind the whole ''Waifu'' thing, since Waifus always existed. However, i don't even recognize Fates' Character as Waifus, because they are just mostly walking fanservice. This is for me is much more of a turn off then it is a turn on. Waifufags might not get crazy over SoV's or older Waifus for example, but to me, SoV's girls are much more of a ''Waifu'' than whatever Fates gave us.

To be perfectly honest most fates' characters aren't that bad in terms of fanservice. I mean yeah charlotte but at least she's given and understandable reason for dressing the way she does. Though now that I think about it in the larger picture there are a lot of "pandering" characters in this game. The maids/butler speak for themselves, mozu is just tragic cute loli no.2.0, the awakening six for all the awakening fans out there(though the nohr trio is actually handled pretty well), midori is just loli number 5, kaze is every fangirls dream, elise and sakura speak for themselves. You get the idea. Actually now that I think about it there a lot of loli's in this game like FE has always had lolis but this game has like 5 technically and that's kind of concerning. 

1 hour ago, Thane said:

That's not to say there's not room for some fan service, there's just a time and place for anything. DLC, or a fun, spin-off gacha game like Heroes? Sure, that's fine, but things like Camilla's introduction cutscene and female Generals exposing their asses is in horrible taste that just ruins the immersion.

Exactly. Hell I'm even fine with stuff such as the camilla cutscene so long as it's line with her character but as we've seen it kind of isn't. I mean she's always had that seductress vibe but she never outright states or implies that's what's going on here though I haven't read her supports in a while so maybe I'm forgetting something. I mean I'm with any form of fanservice so long as it's done in a way that makes sense narratively. I mean if that same scene wwas done with charlotte I wouldn't mind it so much because it's line with her character.

 

[Thane]

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

But if Heroes is anything to go by, it shows that Intelligent Systems does listen to feedback, so i do feel confident that we won't get another Fates.

Easily fixed gameplay changes, while appreciated, aren't as difficult to address as writing conventions. While it's impossible to know if it were just because of different developers or what, but if I were being optimistic, I'd say Echoes is more proof of them trying to move away from Fates' more questionable choices. While I thought Echoes was pretty poorly written, I didn't feel dirty playing it.

According to Reggie, at least Nintendo of America reads "all the boards", so I wonder if they know about the overall reception to Fates' writing. Hell even Jwittz, a guy they've worked with multiple times, personally, called it "a narrative disaster".

23 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Do people with low investment in the series as a whole (read: people who've still only played the 3DS games and haven't even considered the older ones) even pay attention to the story?

Of course. It all depends on the person. A lot of people with heavy investment in Fire Emblem don't care about story at all. It's all up to individual preferences.

23 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

I feel like there are some huge generalizations going on here.

A lot of forum discussions, at least theoretical ones such as these, start wide and then the focus gets more and more narrow. If you disagree with something in particular, then you should speak your mind so that the people who're generalizing can explain themselves further.