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Fire emblem and "modern" anime trends


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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Ephraim shows up and immediately exists to do cool things and for people to tell him how great he is. The only things that ever go wrong for him have nothing to do with his character and are completely divorced from his own actions. 

Well the sacred stone smash second was his fault- too much brashness towards Lyon. But, and this is shared with Eirika, they don't go out of their way to say to them "your fault led to the SS of Renais being smashed".

I do agree Ephraim is bad.

 

1 hour ago, Cute Chao said:

while ridiculously short miniskirts were always a thing (Eirika, Amelia, Nephenee... probably countless others)

And Eirika actually flashes Forde for a moment in their first support, just as a joke. Which they left untouched while they changed Ewan looking up Amelia's skirt in the localization. Probably because Eirika, the female, chose to flash Forde and it unnerved him, he didn't want it. While Ewan was being a pervy little boy looking by sheer accident but nonetheless he did, at the little girl Amelia. They also left the implication that Tethys and Gerik were going to be getting to some mad kissing, and maybe more, we don't know, in the middle of a battlefield at the end of their A- they're both plenty old enough for it though.

1 hour ago, Cute Chao said:

So yup, for me, get rid of the random armour gaps and I'd be happy enough. At the moment, they're the most distracting and annoying thing for me, especially when Heroes let it bleed to the older games by giving Gwendy freaking hot pants. 

I think they also replaced some if not all of her internal organs and bones with some cybernetics, since her body is so thin now even with the heavy armor atop it.

 

32 minutes ago, OakTree said:

and the fact that Fire Emblem is a franchise where almost all conflict is handled with physical combat in the story, so the character flaw of being a good fighter and commander, but not a good leader or friend is something that the writers very clearly didn't knew how to translate into the game proper

I don't feel Marth for his part shows his supposed unmatched (or at least equal to Roy, Seliph, and Eliwood) regal, sovereign-appropriate nature enough. The only case of a ruler truly being shown as a ruler we have is Elincia Part 2 RD. Every other game is about liberation/defense of the kingdom, about creating the circumstance where one can rule, but at that point things end happily ever after. Elincia's little civil war is the lone exception, handled, for whatever narrative and gameplay faults it has, quite well.

 

Actually, if FE got an anime, using it to supplement the games and fill in the weak spots would help. Don't focus on the combat scenes, and don't spend too time on slice of life and love, devote at least a few minutes of every episode on politics and administration. Or war logistics/operations/strategy, just something where the lord has to make hard choices off the battlefield that meaningfully reflect on how they would be as a ruler, that make them seem like an actual ruler ruling.

 

6 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It isn't part of the original script.

And in Awakening, I think I remember hearing Nah says her dad was a lolicon in Japan, as opposed to something about a shotgun wedding in the English localization.

 

13 hours ago, Thane said:

I'd wager - but considering the aging population and the ever-increasing importance of the Western fanbase, the fact that Intelligent Systems seem to be chasing trends like this has me concerned and confused.

I think I remember hearing something like half of Japanese under 30 are virgins or something. I forget exactly, it was a recent documentary series with called Sex and Love Around the World which pointed it out. Otakus are not the sole issue at hand, but their escapism doesn't help. Yaoi is another issue- girls choose to forget about the all issues of forming relationships with men, by reading fictional, ideal relationships which they can't envision themselves as being part of given it is male-male. The heart of the issue it seems is that Japanese people just have a hard time expressing their emotions to each other and the need for postmarital intimacy. Kinda makes it easier to understand all the plots in Japanese media where it seems like confessing love is harder than slaying the Dark God of the Multiverse.

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15 minutes ago, Modamy said:

I don't know, at least Ephraim and Lyon seem to own up to their mistakes because of the consequences and their interactions and try to make the best out of the situation. Lyon takes on the role of demon king to give Ephraim and Eirika the motivation to kill him and save the continent and Ephraim puts down his spear and acts as a king and gives relief to Grado after they suffer the earthquake that Lyon foresaw. I wouldn't go as far as saying their very good or well fleshed out characters, but it feels like some happened and lesson were learned. Corrin is treated like such a special little lamb that when something goes wrong one of his siblings or retainers bends over backwards to assure him none of it is his fault and he doesn't have to change or grow at all and he just accepts that and never even makes the attempt to be better. In Revelations he treats his flaws as some kind of strength even when nothing good comes from it.

Im not trying to imply he is as bad as Corrin, only that they suffer from the exact same problems in the narrative, Corrin is just way worse about it.

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44 minutes ago, OakTree said:

Im not trying to imply he is as bad as Corrin, only that they suffer from the exact same problems in the narrative, Corrin is just way worse about it.

It really depends on what we're talking about here. 

As much as Corrin exists to ego stroke the player, Corrin does a looooot of stuff that leads to people unintentionally dying, like, all the time. And while Corrin doesn't reflect on any of this in any sort of meaningful manner, there is acknowledgement that this stuff is Corrin's fault to some degree. Even if 2 seconds later a large handful of characters comes to pat Corrin on the back and tell them that it wasn't. 

Ephraim doesn't really even get this. From him storming a castle and taking it with just 5 people, to him beating the Demon King, there aren't any major moments where Ephraim ever really acknowledges that he does anything wrong. I'm gonna be vulgar here, but no character needs to take Ephraim's dick out of their mouth to tell him something wasn't his fault aside from maybe the Lyon thing. 

Narratively, yeah. As bad as SS handles Ephraim, Fates handles Corrin waaaay worse. Even though nobody can stop telling Ephraim how awesome he is, the game doesn't put an insane amount of focus on it, while Corrin more or less is treated like a child who is showing his parents his finger paintings. It's ugly and stupid, but the parents tell him they did a great job, anyway. And they're about as heavy handed as a parent talking to a 3 year old. 

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9 minutes ago, Slumber said:

It really depends on what we're talking about here. 

As much as Corrin exists to ego stroke the player, Corrin does a looooot of stuff that leads to people unintentionally dying, like, all the time. And while Corrin doesn't reflect on any of this in any sort of meaningful manner, there is acknowledgement that this stuff is Corrin's fault to some degree. Even if 2 seconds later a large handful of characters comes to pat Corrin on the back and tell them that it wasn't. 

Ephraim doesn't really even get this. From him storming a castle and taking it with just 5 people, to him beating the Demon King, there aren't any major moments where Ephraim ever really acknowledges that he does anything wrong. I'm gonna be vulgar here, but no character needs to take Ephraim's dick out of their mouth to tell him something wasn't his fault aside from maybe the Lyon thing. 

Narratively, yeah. As bad as SS handles Ephraim, Fates handles Corrin waaaay worse. Even though nobody can stop telling Ephraim how awesome he is, the game doesn't put an insane amount of focus on it, while Corrin more or less is treated like a child who is showing his parents his finger paintings. It's ugly and stupid, but the parents tell him they did a great job, anyway. And they're about as heavy handed as a parent talking to a 3 year old. 

Correct me if I am wrong because this is not my area of expertise. I always though that Ephraim's struggle was more about him coming to terms with his own bloodlust. His Erika B support probably shows the most complexity to him. Additionally, he acknowledges he has self doubt in letting Dussel fight against Grado in their supports. Take that as you will I suppose.

Generally, I still agree that Ephraim is a lord that is portrayed more poorly than others, but I don't think it is quite as horrible as people seem to be letting on. I can forgive his issues a smidge more than others because the campaign is broken between two lords as well.

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1 hour ago, NPR said:

Correct me if I am wrong because this is not my area of expertise. I always though that Ephraim's struggle was more about him coming to terms with his own bloodlust. His Erika B support probably shows the most complexity to him. Additionally, he acknowledges he has self doubt in letting Dussel fight against Grado in their supports. Take that as you will I suppose.

Generally, I still agree that Ephraim is a lord that is portrayed more poorly than others, but I don't think it is quite as horrible as people seem to be letting on. I can forgive his issues a smidge more than others because the campaign is broken between two lords as well.

For a character flaw to be a flaw, there needs to be some repercussion or drawback to it. I'll never buy Ephraim's "bloodlust" as a bad thing when your very first introduction to him is him storming a castle with 3 other guys, and then being told how great he was for doing that. His bloodlust wins him the day and everybody thinks it was an amazing tactical decision. If Kyle or Forde was gravely injured in that skirmish, or Orson's defection was a result, I might buy it. But no.

Just saying "Oh jeez, I think I'm too headstrong and I need to be a better person" means nothing when the game won't go out of its way to show anything but the opposite.

As much as I don't want another Corrin, I'd probably want another Ephraim even less. Part of the problem with Corrin was the game's inability to let anything bad stick to him, compared to Ephraim's inability to actually do anything bad. A game written by a competent writer probably could make a Corrin-type character work. I don't think it'd be very good, but it would probably meet the bare-minimum. Nobody not writing a comedy poking fun at Ephraim-types could make Ephraim work.

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2 hours ago, Slumber said:

As much as I don't want another Corrin, I'd probably want another Ephraim even less. Part of the problem with Corrin was the game's inability to let anything bad stick to him, compared to Ephraim's inability to actually do anything bad. A game written by a competent writer probably could make a Corrin-type character work. I don't think it'd be very good, but it would probably meet the bare-minimum. Nobody not writing a comedy poking fun at Ephraim-types could make Ephraim work.

I think all you need to do to make Ephraim work is actually have some kind of consequence and maybe show him trying to improve as a result.

Honestly, it would've been good if the storming of the castle had led to his capture or something similar (maybe forced him to hole up in a small spot just to try and stay alive) and have it where Eirika needs to rescue him properly (it's been a while since I played, but I'm pretty sure she does go to rescue him but he's already gone or something?). It would've also solved a bugbear of mine where so many female characters need rescuing but the males are normally a-ok. It'd have been nice if Eirika would have had to save her brother, or if Celica had had to save Alm at some point because their brashness had led them somewhere they couldn't get away from easily and shake it off.

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12 hours ago, Cute Chao said:

What about Ephraim? He doesn't really mess up, either, when he really should. 

I don't really consider either of them Mary Sues, but then I tend to be pretty lenient when it comes to that. Celica annoyed me far worse as a character than Alm in that game, and neither are anywhere near close to being my favourite FE characters. 

Ephraim has his fatal flaw, his recklessness. Alm, meanwhile, after leaving Ram Village proceeds to kill Desaix, Slayde, Rudolf, and Duma. He doesn't have any flaws that impact him at all.

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1 hour ago, FootwaySublong said:

Ephraim has his fatal flaw, his recklessness. Alm, meanwhile, after leaving Ram Village proceeds to kill Desaix, Slayde, Rudolf, and Duma. He doesn't have any flaws that impact him at all.

But his recklessness doesn't have a downside in his game. Ephraim proceeds to take over an entire castle before fleeing, unharmed, with only a few men. So that's the argument that people have for Ephraim - the same one that others have for Alm. His recklessness is more of a perceived flaw with no downsides.

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10 hours ago, Slumber said:

For a character flaw to be a flaw, there needs to be some repercussion or drawback to it. I'll never buy Ephraim's "bloodlust" as a bad thing when your very first introduction to him is him storming a castle with 3 other guys, and then being told how great he was for doing that. His bloodlust wins him the day and everybody thinks it was an amazing tactical decision. If Kyle or Forde was gravely injured in that skirmish, or Orson's defection was a result, I might buy it. But no.

Just saying "Oh jeez, I think I'm too headstrong and I need to be a better person" means nothing when the game won't go out of its way to show anything but the opposite.

As much as I don't want another Corrin, I'd probably want another Ephraim even less. Part of the problem with Corrin was the game's inability to let anything bad stick to him, compared to Ephraim's inability to actually do anything bad. A game written by a competent writer probably could make a Corrin-type character work. I don't think it'd be very good, but it would probably meet the bare-minimum. Nobody not writing a comedy poking fun at Ephraim-types could make Ephraim work.

This line of thinking seems to miss the point on why Ephraim isn't that great of a lord though. The problem isn't with Ephraim's personality, the problem is how the writers advance Ephraim through his scenario. There are consequences to his actions, but they are all short lived and don't end up hurting anyone so they don't matter. This is indeed similar to things that happen with Corrin in Fates, but Corrin's issue becomes compounded by his erratic, poorly defined personality and the fact that people actually get hurt quite frequently with little more than a shrug. It is much harder to even attempt to understand Corrin's thought process, while, ironically, it is very easy to understand Ephraim because of his bland (edit) PRECIEVED one note personality. (As noted before he does express self doubt often enough in the supports to know that he would react in a multidimensional way if he failed.)

So while Ephraim is similar to Corrin in certain aspects, namely that everybody loves him and that he has little consequences to his actions because of various deus ex machina, there are also a number of differences that make him for more tolerable. That doesn't mean he is a good lord by any stretch of the imagination, just that he is... bland. There's a reason why the Marty Stu has been popular for so long without being called out as bad writing.

Additionally, I think you hit the nail on the head about Ephraim in your last paragraph, he has an inability to actually do anything bad, or to be more specific, anything bad he does turns out ok. An Ephraim like character works out great if a few of their bad actions have consequences. It makes for a great fall from grace and redemption arc. Corrin though... you would have to change Corrin first along with the scenario to make that work in my opinion.

 

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8 hours ago, Cute Chao said:

Honestly, it would've been good if the storming of the castle had led to his capture or something similar (maybe forced him to hole up in a small spot just to try and stay alive) and have it where Eirika needs to rescue him properly (it's been a while since I played, but I'm pretty sure she does go to rescue him but he's already gone or something?). It would've also solved a bugbear of mine where so many female characters need rescuing but the males are normally a-ok. It'd have been nice if Eirika would have had to save her brother, or if Celica had had to save Alm at some point because their brashness had led them somewhere they couldn't get away from easily and shake it off.

He was never at all captured.

Ephraim was surrounded by Valter's army after 5x, he was stuck on a peninsula, him and maybe a couple hundred invisible soldiers at most, against Valter's massive force implied through the sheer number of visible units he fields for that scene. And yet, despite having only one land route out of the battlefield, when he is fighting Valter the psychopath on a flying wyvern who is obsessed with the Renais twins, he, Kyle and Forde (I think Orson betrays offscreen at this point) and maybe his invisible soldiers all escape seemingly unscathed as far the dialogue goes. A betrayal (for all we know Orson might have tipped off Valter that Ephraim would take Renvall in advance), a guerrilla army vs. a big standard one, a pretty inescapable position, flying enemies when you have no fliers of your own, and a powerful psychotic general who would love to peel your skin off bit by bit. How did Ephraim escape perfectly untouched?

 

24 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

I may remember wrong, but didn't he fall into Lyon's trap that one time due to his recklessness?

That is the one time he messes up. But the game doesn't go out of its way to outright say to Ephraim "This is the result of your recklessness", the same way nobody afterward critiques Eirika for her naïveté. Although if Seth said "My liege, you were brainless", besides being out of character for Seth, some would dislike that as being kicking a puppy that just fell and broke a leg.

Although Eclipse our fair mod did back in some FEH topic eons ago show how the scene does show a sort of flaw with Ephraim. Namely, up until the stone smash, he was willing to kill Lyon thinking he was absolutely lost and the DK was just using his body. The chat before the stone is smashed shows him Lyon is still alive, undermining his resolve because he can't kill his best friend, and spends the final meetings with Lyon treating him like a friend and not just the DK's pawn (which is don't get that wrong- but Ephraim is willing to acknowledge Lyon's "agency"). Eirika goes through the opposite- she refused to kill Lyon thinking he could be saved, but emerges from the stone smash scene willing to kill Lyon to end his suffering. 

This is not enough to redeem Ephraim overall in my eyes though.

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2 hours ago, Cute Chao said:

But his recklessness doesn't have a downside in his game. Ephraim proceeds to take over an entire castle before fleeing, unharmed, with only a few men. So that's the argument that people have for Ephraim - the same one that others have for Alm. His recklessness is more of a perceived flaw with no downsides.

That's actually a pretty good point. Ephraim is praised for a shitty decision in chapter 5x.

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@Interdimensional Observer

I never said he was captured. I was trying to remember if Eirika was led into a trap by trying to rescue him or something (even though he had already left the castle. I said I would prefer if he had been captured and Eirika actually did have to rescue him, personally). I need to replay FE8 since it really has been a long time, but I keep saying that and never get round to it.

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I've heard it said in this thread that shipping is nothing new and has been in the series for a long time. It's true we've had marriage as early as FE4 and supports are all about pairing people up, but I'd argue that modern shipping is a lot more "anime" since the introduction of mass supports and avatar characters. The "everyone can be paired with everyone" support system of Fatewakening means A LOT of supports and the easiest way for the writers to pull this off is to pull character tropes from anime so you can have "when trope A meets trope B". Some past characters were equally tropey (Ilyana for example), but the larger number of supports does call for contrived anime sillyness. The presence of avatar characters is another shift in writing dynamics because now characters need to be designed to appeal to specific tastes so people can pick out their "waifu/husbando". Characters exist less for themselves and more so players can pick their object of affection to get attached too. This is very apparent with features like Skinship where characters have their agency removed so you can feel them up.

On 5/11/2018 at 8:29 PM, coldhand25 said:

Hai to Gensou no Grimgar is a really good anime - graphics, music and storywise as well. Even though I found the LN better, I cannot recommend it enough. The MC is not overpowered, and not every girl falls in love with him. Also, no harem which is always a big plus. Although the anime has one or two fanservice part, it really isn't that bad at all. For me it's definitely better than Konosuba, simply because it's not a parody of the genre, and still can offer something new. (That being said, I have nothing against Konosuba, I actually liked the first season, but still, for me no isekai anime/LN can beat Grimgar)

I didn't read the LN but I found the anime to be terribly boring. While I can appreciate the deconstruction of the isekai and fantasy stories, Grimgar wasn't very exciting. They make progress at a snail's pace and do a lot of moping (some of the moping is justified). I think a problem with the story is that there are other people trapped in that fantasy world who are having  great success, which makes the protagonists look incompetent.

On 5/12/2018 at 1:45 AM, NPR said:

I feel like this is part of the problem though, the very existence of Fire Emblem Fates has created an anchoring principle where people see a new story that is just 'ok' and eat it up because, 'at least it isn't Fates.' That also seems to give an out to Nintendo for pushing something mediocre because the reviews for the next game will almost surely be able to say that the writing is better than Fates and use that as a selling point.

This was probably true for SoV. While not nearly as bad as Fates, it still had a variety of problems, including a (not-as-much-as-Corrin) Mary Sue protagonist and difficulty delivering its themes. People seemed to like it, however.

I'm sure FE16 will get a similar "not Fates/10" rating from many.

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I don't mind Fire Emblem becoming "too anime" for the most part. To me, Fire Emblem always seemed to be a series inspired from anime, and what I've about the older games only affirm that. Althoug with the later games , I can see why fans would go as far as call something like Fates "too anime."

But I guess when it comes to those "anime" elements that people point out in Fire Emblem games, the only thing I'd like to see less of are avatar-like characters that are worshipped to the point of reaching Mary Sue territory. It's rather annoying.

On 5/11/2018 at 7:49 PM, Slumber said:

At least Alm has somebody in his army question his leadership and leave.

I don't think Fernand really counts as a good example of someone that doubts Alm to prove the latter isn't a Mary Sue. Fernand's only reason that he left the Deliverance in regards to Alm was because of Alm's rural origins. He didn't leave the Deliverance because of Alm's leadership or a mistake the latter makes that costed himself and his allies when leading the group.

Aside from Celica, Clive would be better example of someone that questions Alm's position. He questions Alm if saving Delthea is the right thing to do, and regardless of whether or not Alm saves Mathilda, Clive has a moment where he thinks it was a mistake to appoint Alm as the Deliverance's leader following that battle; that shows Clive doubts what Alm is doing for a period of time. In Clive's case, he has seen what Alm has contributed as a leader and thus makes his criticisms and questions based on Alm's actions.

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49 minutes ago, Erureido said:

I don't think Fernand really counts as a good example of someone that doubts Alm to prove the latter isn't a Mary Sue. Fernand's only reason that he left the Deliverance in regards to Alm was because of Alm's rural origins. He didn't leave the Deliverance because of Alm's leadership or a mistake the latter makes that costed himself and his allies when leading the group.

The point of the comment was just there to show that not everybody worshipped the ground that Alm walked on. You're right that it probably would have been good to mention Clive's doubts, but Alm is ultimately right in those scenarios, which does little to curb the argument that he's a Mary Sue.

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On 5/13/2018 at 11:01 PM, Slumber said:

The point of the comment was just there to show that not everybody worshipped the ground that Alm walked on. You're right that it probably would have been good to mention Clive's doubts, but Alm is ultimately right in those scenarios, which does little to curb the argument that he's a Mary Sue.

Fair enough, though I personally wouldn't say those characters doubting him completely absolves Alm of being a Mary Sue, especially when the game still portrays him as nearly perfect in what he does while having little character development as well, but hey, to each their own.

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I feel the issue with many of the FE protagonists is that they have little if any flaws at all, and get way too much praise from the supporting characters.  Which is a common trend I see among alot of anime.  Never having to face any consequences or learn as a character. Corrin is a perfect example of this. Though to be fair other lords suffer from a similar issue but I would argue to a lesser extent (Eliwood, Alm, Lyn, Ephraim, etc)

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17 hours ago, kotaro said:

I feel the issue with many of the FE protagonists is that they have little if any flaws at all, and get way too much praise from the supporting characters.  Which is a common trend I see among alot of anime.  Never having to face any consequences or learn as a character. Corrin is a perfect example of this. Though to be fair other lords suffer from a similar issue but I would argue to a lesser extent (Eliwood, Alm, Lyn, Ephraim, etc)

You know with all this talk about flaws and mary sues I’d like make somewhat of an unpopular opinion. I don’t think a character needs “flaws” to be considered a good character. They just need some form of constant personal struggle either external or internal preferably both. Character flaws are just the most common way to create said struggles. Then again I guess it all boils down to what you consider a character flaw to be. I dunno it’s weird and I’ll need to think on this more.  

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On 5/20/2018 at 2:41 PM, Otts486 said:

You know with all this talk about flaws and mary sues I’d like make somewhat of an unpopular opinion. I don’t think a character needs “flaws” to be considered a good character. They just need some form of constant personal struggle either external or internal preferably both. Character flaws are just the most common way to create said struggles. Then again I guess it all boils down to what you consider a character flaw to be. I dunno it’s weird and I’ll need to think on this more.  

If a character has flaws, They become more relatable to the audience I feel. Which is why I value a character having both strengths and weaknesses. If they have no character flaw, there really isn't any room for character development.

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6 hours ago, kotaro said:

If a character has flaws, They become more relatable to the audience I feel. Which is why I value a character having both strengths and weaknesses. If they have no character flaw, there really isn't any room for character development.

I'm not saying character flaws are bad far from it in fact. I'm just saying a character's "flaw" doesn't necessarily have to contribute to character development or growth. When you really stand to look at it even mary sue characters have flaws(they're oblivious, too kind, too strong, etc.) it's just that those flaws don't effect them in any meaningful way or contribute to any meaningful development. Then there are characters like saitama from one punch man who don't really any flaws that affect them in any meaningful way but he does have some kind of personal struggle in that his sheer power has left him bored and apathetic. Another struggle is not a result of any of saitama's doing at all. it's that he is unrecognized within society and that breeds a meaningful conflict which is all a story and character needs at the end of the day.

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16 hours ago, Otts486 said:

I'm not saying character flaws are bad far from it in fact. I'm just saying a character's "flaw" doesn't necessarily have to contribute to character development or growth. When you really stand to look at it even mary sue characters have flaws(they're oblivious, too kind, too strong, etc.) it's just that those flaws don't effect them in any meaningful way or contribute to any meaningful development. Then there are characters like saitama from one punch man who don't really any flaws that affect them in any meaningful way but he does have some kind of personal struggle in that his sheer power has left him bored and apathetic. Another struggle is not a result of any of saitama's doing at all. it's that he is unrecognized within society and that breeds a meaningful conflict which is all a story and character needs at the end of the day.

I don't think Saitama is a good example. Considering he's suppose to be more of a joke character. Him being perfect and being insanely stronger than everyone is kind of the point of his character. One punch man is suppose to be more of a satirical anime and really doesn't take itself seriously. I'm gonna flip flop a little and say I do agree that you don't necessarily need flaws to develop a character. After all a character can grow without having a specific flaw in one aspect. but I definitely do think its something that's important for a character to have. You can only go so far without having any sort of flaw in your character. There isn't a single character I've liked in any series where they have little if any character flaws what so ever. I don't think its even possible to make a decently well written character without at least one sort of flaw.

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