Would you want a way to change a unit’s color? Or a skill that could reverse the Weapon Triagle?

[Water Mage]

I always thought that some units would be much better if they were of different colors. For example Summer Leo and Lyon would be much better if they were Green and Hinata and F!Grima would be better tanks if they were blue. Do you guys ever wish for a skill that reversed the Weapon Triangle or change a unit’s color? Which units do you think would be stronger if they were of a different color? Or do you think changing a unit’s color or reversing the Weapon Triangle would be too broken?

[Cute Chao]

Honestly, I wouldn't like it. I'm happier seeing a character and knowing what to expect, personally, while reversing the weapon triangle would just be painful to me. If I see a map with a sword, lance, axe and red tome, I like to know I can bring along the necessary counters without having to worry about it... CA is bad enough for me >.< 

[Von Ithipathachai]

As fun as I think it would be to see Gonzalez in the game with a Swordreaver for his weapon, I think it's for the best that -reaver Skills aren't a thing in Heroes.  It would just make things too complicated.

[Usana]

I don't think I would mind seeing Breaker/Reaver weapons added into the game. However, I think with the way Heroes it it makes it a bit trickier than say just adding a SwordReaver as an Axe. After all the only thing it would change is the sword and lance matchups. Red tomes, Red Dragons, etc wouldn't be effected. Though I suppose we could make it effective all the way around. But that could also be confusing in its own right.

Another option would be to have no change to the triangle but to have such weapons carry the breaker skill. So the SwordReaver would be an axe with inherit SwordBreaker 3 or some such. Perhaps have them have less mt and be undefinable like the raven tomes.

[Humanoid]

If they're going to mess with Weapon Triangle stuff, they may as well just go the whole hog and have completely unrestricted inheritance. The reason things are as they are now is for easy visual identification, e.g. you see a Bartre, you know you need to counter with a sword or magic. This makes planning for things like AA compositions or even something as simple as Training Stratum opponents more convenient than they'd be otherwise.

If Bartre could potentially have a Swordreaver then we have the brave new world where we would need to specifically check every single opponent before a fight for what they're carrying. In a world like this, why not just let Bartre inherit any lance or sword, or bow, or even tome? The only change required is that colour types are now based on weapon, not character. The BST difference could easily be handled by attaching penalties to the weapons, e.g. -2 all stats on ranged weapons.

[Water Mage]

44 minutes ago, Cute Chao said:

Honestly, I wouldn't like it. I'm happier seeing a character and knowing what to expect, personally, while reversing the weapon triangle would just be painful to me. If I see a map with a sword, lance, axe and red tome, I like to know I can bring along the necessary counters without having to worry about it... CA is bad enough for me >.< 

 

4 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

If they're going to mess with Weapon Triangle stuff, they may as well just go the whole hog and have completely unrestricted inheritance. The reason things are as they are now is for easy visual identification, e.g. you see a Bartre, you know you need to counter with a sword or magic. This makes planning for things like AA compositions or even something as simple as Training Stratum opponents more convenient than they'd be otherwise.

If Bartre could potentially have a Swordreaver then we have the brave new world where we would need to specifically check every single opponent before a fight for what they're carrying. In a world like this, why not just let Bartre inherit any lance or sword, or bow, or even tome? The only change required is that colour types are now based on weapon, not character. The BST difference could easily be handled by attaching penalties to the weapons, e.g. -2 all stats on ranged weapons.

To be fair, was thinking that the whole color thing would only aply to the player, like Supports bonuses to avoid this kind of problem actually.

[Nowi's Husband]

I'd change one of my Nowi's to green since she only has blue and red so far I'm her forms.

[nirvanafan]

I mean maybe they can add dual weapons like they had in Fates but I do not see that happening any time soon

[ashlyn]

I don't think we need any changes to current units but that it would make things interesting if they were to add a skill like that to a new character. They could make it be an A or B slot skill that gave the option of inverting the weapon triangle, and then people would get the option of keeping it on them or getting rid of it and using the unit with the regular triangle advantages/disadvantages. I think that would work better that way than if they were to make a weapon that did the same thing. 

[bottlegnomes]

It certainly would complicate things, but it might be kind of cool.

As for specific characters, I feel like being green does Legendary Lyn no favors. Most of the blue mages she could survive without WTA and while she can survive a decent number of red mages, it certainly makes it more difficult.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

Most of the blue mages she could survive without WTA and while she can survive a decent number of red mages, it certainly makes it more difficult.

Colorless is shit for tanking, though. Sure, it lets you survive one round of combat more easily, but it's horrible for holding out two or three rounds of combat.

To have any semblance of sustain as a colorless unit, you need to have absurd amounts of Def or Res like Halloween Jakob or Faye with a Guard Bow. Colored units receive what is effectively a free +9-13 Def and Res against one color, and that's something colorless units cannot take advantage of (Guard Bow only takes you a bit more than half of the way there).

[bottlegnomes]

8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Colorless is shit for tanking, though. Sure, it lets you survive one round of combat more easily, but it's horrible for holding out two or three rounds of combat.

To have any semblance of sustain as a colorless unit, you need to have absurd amounts of Def or Res like Halloween Jakob or Faye with a Guard Bow. Colored units receive what is effectively a free +9-13 Def and Res against one color, and that's something colorless units cannot take advantage of (Guard Bow only takes you a bit more than half of the way there).

How many enemies are you expecting her to take on in a single match without support?

[Ice Dragon]

16 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

How many enemies are you expecting her to take on in a single match without support?

A lot in Rival Domains. Some in Tempest Trials. A bunch in reinforcements maps. Three in Arena.

[bottlegnomes]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

A lot in Rival Domains. Some in Tempest Trials. A bunch in reinforcements maps. Three in Arena.

RD there's virtually no penalty for dying. TT and reinforcement maps why aren't you using support units especially now that healers can be perfectly competent combatants? And arena what the hell the rest of your team doing? If anything, the biggest benefit is AA, which calls for multiple of very specific counters that can be guaranteed to be known before-hand.

[Water Mage]

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

 

As for specific characters, I feel like being green does Legendary Lyn no favors. Most of the blue mages she could survive without WTA and while she can survive a decent number of red mages, it certainly makes it more difficult.

Much like Ice Dragon said, Colorless is a terrible color for tanking. F!Grima is a prime example of that. She has a great stat spread for a defensive unit, but her color and Movement type harm her tanking capabilities. It shows how much color can affect a unit’s performance.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Water Mage

[Ice Dragon]

13 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

RD there's virtually no penalty for dying.

There is in Grand Conquest.

 

13 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

TT and reinforcement maps why aren't you using support units especially now that healers can be perfectly competent combatants?

Because they have shit performance on enemy phase.

 

13 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

And arena what the hell the rest of your team doing?

Being the wrong color to fight against a mono-color team.

I specifically said three instead of four because I'm assuming the other three units on your team are able to gang up on the opponent's fourth unit to take it out... which isn't actually a safe assumption to make, but is safe enough to get a run done.

One day, someone is going to make a team of four Zelgiuses and I'll just cry looking at it.

 

13 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

If anything, the biggest benefit is AA, which calls for multiple of very specific counters that can be guaranteed to be known before-hand.

If anything, Arena Assault is the least relevant mode because you can counter pick one unit for each enemy instead of having to deal with three or four units with only one of your own.

With the fact that you can literally get a unit from level 1 to level 40 in under 30 minutes while using only 75 stamina, it shouldn't be an issue getting a full stable of very specific counters.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[bottlegnomes]

41 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Much like Ice Dragon said, Colorless is a terrible color for tanking. F!Grima is a prime example of that. She has a great stat spread for a defensive unit, but her color and Movement type harm her tanking capabilities. It shows how much color can affect a unit’s performance.

I'm not saying they're great, but I feel like people overblow how bad they are. In most contexts, a unit is probably going to need to deal with one or two enemy units without support. Lyn's not crazy tanky regardless, and I'd prefer her to be able to deal with all colors decently rather than one well, two decently, and one poorly, but that's just me. It also cuts into her ability to PP nuke which since she has a decent offensive line, she probably wouldn't mind being able to be a mixed phase unit. Maybe I was a bit hyperbolic in saying it doesn't do her any favors, but I don't think she'd be noticeably different if she were colorless. She'd be less niche counter and more generalized counter. But that's just my two cents.

 

29 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There is in Grand Conquest.

Hardly. There's a reason a significant number of the people in the GC topics talk about auto battling them.

 

29 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Because they have shit performance on enemy phase.

Does that mean you're never running Reinhardt, Brave Lyn, BB!Cordelia, Ishtar, Linde, Tana, any firesweep user, etc.?

 

29 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Being the wrong color to fight against a mono-color team.

I specifically said three instead of four because I'm assuming the other three units on your team are able to gang up on the opponent's fourth unit to take it out... which isn't actually a safe assumption to make, but is safe enough to get a run done.

One day, someone is going to make a team of four Zelgiuses and I'll just cry looking at it.

If 3/4ths of your team is hard-countered by a single color/unit, it seems like you need to reconsider team comp.

 

29 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If anything, Arena Assault is the least relevant mode because you can counter pick one unit for each enemy instead of having to deal with three or four units with only one of your own.

With the fact that you can literally get a unit from level 1 to level 40 in under 30 minutes while using only 75 stamina, it shouldn't be an issue getting a full stable of very specific counters.

Assuming you have the fodder and feathers available to fully build said counters. Lyn's pretty much set to go for countering blues which is basically what you're arguing isn't it?

Edited May 14, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Hardly. There's a reason a significant number of the people in the GC topics talk about auto battling them.

There's also a significant number of people who don't hit Rank 25 for all rewards.

 

14 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Does that mean you're never running Reinhardt, Brave Lyn, BB!Cordelia, Ishtar, Linde, Tana, any firesweep user, etc.?

I rarely do in Grand Hero Battles and other challenge maps. My enemy-phase and mixed-phase teams are typically more than reliable enough.

• Reinhardt is relegated to Arena Assault (and the most recent Tempest Trials).
• Brave Lyn gets some mileage on my wind team, but is otherwise only really used in Arena Assault.
• Bride Cordelia is relegated to Arena Assault.
• Ishtar isn't built or leveled.
• Linde is... somewhere. I think I built her. Mostly.
• Tana isn't built or leveled.
• Soleil, Peri, and Cordelia are my only other Firesweep users.
  • Soleil is relegated to Arena Assault.
  • Peri is my assisted solo captain because I can.
  • Cordelia is relegated to Arena Assault.

Also, all of the listed units have better player-phase performance than most staff users do.

The only player-phase team that I regularly bring to challenge maps is my earth team (Halloween Nowi, Summer Corrin, Spring Camilla, Legendary Robin).

 

20 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

If 3/4ths of your team is hard-countered by a single color/unit, it seems like you need to reconsider team comp.

Armors have this thing where you attack them without weapon triangle advantage and you're kind of dead afterwards, especially on the oasis map where it's impractical to ever get an armor off of the fortification tiles. Myrrh and flying Grima kind of do, too.

I'm honestly glad no one currently runs a team of three or four copies of Zelgius because Triangle Adept Nowi survives Black Luna with under half of her HP remaining if Zelgius survives her first counterattack (which he does enough of the time).

 

23 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Assuming you have the fodder and feathers available to fully build said counters. Lyn's pretty much set to go for countering blues which is basically what you're arguing isn't it?

Build a stable of gem weapon 4-star units. Arena Assault is where they shine.

[bottlegnomes]

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There's also a significant number of people who don't hit Rank 25 for all rewards.

I'm aware, being one of them. Autoing hard, I got to 23. Lost out on 4 coins and an orb. Huge loss.

 

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I rarely do in Grand Hero Battles and other challenge maps. My enemy-phase and mixed-phase teams are typically more than reliable enough.

• Reinhardt is relegated to Arena Assault (and the most recent Tempest Trials).
• Brave Lyn gets some mileage on my wind team, but is otherwise only really used in Arena Assault.
• Bride Cordelia is relegated to Arena Assault.
• Ishtar isn't built or leveled.
• Linde is... somewhere. I think I built her. Mostly.
• Tana isn't built or leveled.
• Soleil, Peri, and Cordelia are my only other Firesweep users.
  • Soleil is relegated to Arena Assault.
  • Peri is my assisted solo captain because I can.
  • Cordelia is relegated to Arena Assault.

Also, all of the listed units have better player-phase performance than most staff users do.

Rhetorical you. Staffers can potentially be firesweep chippers with added support abilities, so if you're really looking for unit worth, it evens out.

 

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Armors have this thing where you attack them without weapon triangle advantage and you're kind of dead afterwards, especially on the oasis map where it's impractical to ever get an armor off of the fortification tiles. Myrrh and flying Grima kind of do, too.

I'm honestly glad no one currently runs a team of three or four copies of Zelgius because Triangle Adept Nowi survives Black Luna with under half of her HP remaining if Zelgius survives her first counterattack (which he does enough of the time).

Well, look at that. A colorless mixed phase unit whose mixed bulk is comparable to L!Lyn's with her special skills active, 40/30/25 vs 36/25/34. Lyn's not killing quite as well because of the whole breath thing, but 54 x 2 + moonbow/glimmer is hurting whoever you send. Color advantage just makes that easier to mitigate when taking her on. In player hands, you should be accounting for things, and this is coming from me who routinely doesn't account for things.

 

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Build a stable of gem weapon 4-star units. Arena Assault is where they shine.

Feathers and resources. Not everyone's swimming in the characters with the necessary breakers/gem weapons.

Edited May 15, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Xenomata]

I really don't think it's at all viable to go changing a units color, especially for a game like FEH. Once you do, so long any reason to use literally anyone in the roster, and hello player rage.

Reinhardts of the rainbow, LA!Hectors for every occasion, ToD!Nowi bladetome squad anyone, Ayra wouldn't even have competition.

The moment you try to play god with a units assigned color, you forget that it immediately kills off every other unit who does even only slightly worse. For instance, Sophia is somewhat trumped by her being a Red Tome, or else she could counter both Reinhardt and Brave Lyn, but if she were Green, boom every other TA3 Gronnraven unit is obsolete in comparison. Or how about Elincia? She has a personal Brave Sword with Speed +3 built in, she could be made to cover every color by herself.

I mean yes you could continue to build a diverse army of strong units, but what would the point be when you only ever wind up using one very strong unit x4 with different colors? We aren't just playing collect the waifus, we are still playing Fire Emblem, even if half the mechanics of a standard FE game are absent.

3 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Feathers and resources. Not everyone's swimming in the characters with the necessary breakers/gem weapons.

3 units come with Armorslayer+ by default, Hana, Selena, and Tobin, and one of them is locked behind a TT reward. The other two have always been common and annoying summons.

3 units come with Hammer+ by default, Cherche, Frederick, and Bartre. 2 are relatively fair summons, the other is a meme.

3 units come with Heavy Spear+ by default, Oboro, Florina, and Est, all of whom are relatively fair summons.

There are 3 personal weapons that come with armor effectiveness. Caeda can get Wing Sword, Clair Rhomphaia, and Hinoka Warrior Princess.

Of all of the above, only ONE of them is a 5* lock, and another is a limited time reward.

TA3 is available off Roy at 4*, but TA2 is still acceptable, and wouldn't you know it Cordelia and Selena both have it at 4* and are still fair summons. Sanaki also has it I guess but who is dumb enough to use a 5* lock for a skill that is acceptable at level 2 amiright?

Point is, you don't need to be "swimming" in the characters, you just have to be relatively unlucky summoning for anyone else to get all you need.

[Landmaster]

Ehhh, I think I prefer units being limited to a particular color since you can already have Special Summon units that are potentially usable in multiple colors~ It would be cool to be able to change them, I wouldn't mind it, but I think it's better without

[bottlegnomes]

16 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

3 units come with Armorslayer+ by default, Hana, Selena, and Tobin, and one of them is locked behind a TT reward. The other two have always been common and annoying summons.

3 units come with Hammer+ by default, Cherche, Frederick, and Bartre. 2 are relatively fair summons, the other is a meme.

3 units come with Heavy Spear+ by default, Oboro, Florina, and Est, all of whom are relatively fair summons.

There are 3 personal weapons that come with armor effectiveness. Caeda can get Wing Sword, Clair Rhomphaia, and Hinoka Warrior Princess.

Of all of the above, only ONE of them is a 5* lock, and another is a limited time reward.

TA3 is available off Roy at 4*, but TA2 is still acceptable, and wouldn't you know it Cordelia and Selena both have it at 4* and are still fair summons. Sanaki also has it I guess but who is dumb enough to use a 5* lock for a skill that is acceptable at level 2 amiright?

Point is, you don't need to be "swimming" in the characters, you just have to be relatively unlucky summoning for anyone else to get all you need.

@Bold: Which is sad because Bartre can actually be a pretty solid EP unit with QR and a +def slaying axe.

@Other bold: Hinoka is the exact same as Lyn in my initial point, a rare unit who can counter well right out of the gate.

The rest, honestly, I don't care. My entire point was that Lyn's being able to hard counter blue mages would be of noticeable benefit over her being able to soft counter all mages in AA where up to 7 of anything (though realistically 5) capable of handling things at much higher merges than they are is called for. And shit luck happens, especially with how bloated the 3-4* pool is now.

Edited May 15, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

I'm aware, being one of them. Autoing hard, I got to 23. Lost out on 4 coins and an orb. Huge loss.

If you're missing out on limited resources left and right because you can't make top of Arena Assault, then of course missing another 4 from just another event is easily stomached.

 

8 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Rhetorical you. Staffers can potentially be firesweep chippers with added support abilities, so if you're really looking for unit worth, it evens out.

Not really. Chipping is inferior to outright killing, especially in reinforcement maps where failing to kill enemies fast enough can quickly get you overwhelmed with enemy units.

Elise is good because she can actually kill things in one round of combat in addition to being support.

 

16 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Well, look at that. A colorless mixed phase unit whose mixed bulk is comparable to L!Lyn's with her special skills active, 40/30/25 vs 36/25/34.

No idea what the point of this response was, as Robin being mentioned in my post was in her role to be able to royally fuck up one of the player's misplaced units.

As for Robin herself, she also has terrible sustain without stacking buffs. Her most common build is designed to kill one enemy of the player's choice and then be out of commission (unless you run Desperation).

And by the way, unlike Lyn, Robin is both flying and a dragon, meaning she actually can stack buffs effectively (especially now that Ward Fliers is available at 4-star rarity). Robin gets 40/46/41 (40/52/47 against melee with the Close Def 3 Sacred Seal) defenses on enemy phase with 3 stacks of Ward Fliers, which is actually rather competent, but shows the amount of work needed to make a colorless unit actually have sustain.

 

11 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Feathers and resources. Not everyone's swimming in the characters with the necessary breakers/gem weapons.

You don't need Weaponbreakers, though they definitely help. You just throw gem weapons at things and watch them die.

Ruby Sword is available on 4 3-star-pullable characters. Sapphire Lance is available on 3 3-star-pullable characters. Emerald Axe is available on 2 3-star pullable characters. Narcian is free and always available. All of those weapons are inheritable at 3-star rarity.

It costs 2,000 feathers to upgrade a 3-star character to 4-star rarity on the off chance you don't have a 4-star copy to build. Oh no. So much investment.

[bottlegnomes]

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you're missing out on limited resources left and right because you can't make top of Arena Assault, then of course missing another 4 from just another event is easily stomached.

It'd take you over a year to see the effects of missing out on one level 1 -> level 2 seal from GC provided they stay monthly. BIG loss.

 

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Not really. Chipping is inferior to outright killing, especially in reinforcement maps where failing to kill enemies fast enough can quickly get you overwhelmed with enemy units.

Guess who's great at that. PP nukes. Guess what they like. Support units. As a note, I'm not just including healers as support, nor have I intended to this entire time, though it does seem like that reading my posts. Healers, combat medics, buff-bots, dancers, etc. are what I'm classifying as support.

 

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

No idea what the point of this response was, as Robin being mentioned in my post was in her role to be able to royally fuck up one of the player's misplaced units.

As for Robin herself, she also has terrible sustain without stacking buffs. Her most common build is designed to kill one enemy of the player's choice and then be out of commission (unless you run Desperation).

And by the way, unlike Lyn, Robin is both flying and a dragon, meaning she actually can stack buffs effectively (especially now that Ward Fliers is available at 4-star rarity). Robin gets 40/46/41 (40/52/47 against melee with the Close Def 3 Sacred Seal) defenses on enemy phase with 3 stacks of Ward Fliers, which is actually rather competent, but shows the amount of work needed to make a colorless unit actually have sustain.

Robin is able to take enough of a hit to survive and ruin someone's day. This is basically what Lyn's good at now, and what my point was. Being green lets her destroy blues and greens, and makes her able to deal with reds decently. Being colorless would make her able to destroy blues, greens, and reds. Colorless or not, bows are killing her if they're running BB or taking nothing if they're running firesweep, and daggers are messing her up to the point that you probably don't want her taking them on. Even being green, she's still not exactly tanking a million blues. 36/34 is good for taking a hit or two, but she's never going to be Shiro versus swords.

 

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You don't need Weaponbreakers, though they definitely help. You just throw gem weapons at things and watch them die.

Ruby Sword is available on 4 3-star-pullable characters. Sapphire Lance is available on 3 3-star-pullable characters. Emerald Axe is available on 2 3-star pullable characters. Narcian is free and always available. All of those weapons are inheritable at 3-star rarity.

It costs 2,000 feathers to upgrade a 3-star character to 4-star rarity on the off chance you don't have a 4-star copy to build. Oh no. So much investment.

63,000 feathers isn't huge, but it isn't insignificant if you're going TA2 no breakers full coverage for everything. 126,000 if you're going TA2, breaker 2. Fair enough on the gem weapons. But still, she's good for AA counters should you happen to have one and it's a place where having 7 hard counters for something is beneficial. Or do you disagree?

Edited May 15, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Water Mage]

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

Well, look at that. A colorless mixed phase unit whose mixed bulk is comparable to L!Lyn's with her special skills active, 40/30/25 vs 36/25/34. Lyn's not killing quite as well because of the whole breath thing, but 54 x 2 + moonbow/glimmer is hurting whoever you send. Color advantage just makes that easier to mitigate when taking her on. In player hands, you should be accounting for things, and this is coming from me who routinely doesn't account for things.

Of course she can be good with the right set up. That’s not my point. The problem is, like Ice Dragon said, that she needs a set up to be good. Besides F!Grima has 3 weaknesses, Falchion/Naga, Bows and Raven Tomes. And yes, she does have skills in her base kit that helps deal with those weaknesses, but you have to give up the precious A and B skill slots for that. Meaning she would to have to give up many useful skills such as Quick Riposte, Renewal, Fury, Vantage, Death Blow and so on. Do you see the problem now?