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Corrobin

I'm a bit worried of the direction this game is taking...

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It feels like with every new banner we get, we're pushing towards more glass cannons and speedsters with every new unit. And... I'm sorry, I just don't like that. I like using tanky units, but we're in a meta where Speed and Attack are the only things that matter most of the time. 

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7 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

It feels like with every new banner we get, we're pushing towards more glass cannons and speedsters with every new unit. And... I'm sorry, I just don't like that. I like using tanky units, but we're in a meta where Speed and Attack are the only things that matter most of the time. 

Well... You see people opinion in any subject about the Units.

Atk and Spd are the most important stats, because the other three are more niche, and you can just avoid battle counter-attacks using Firesweep or similar stuff.

Edited by Troykv

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Well, you can always make a good def or res tank without needing much more than what it is required to make a glass canon. If your problem are mages in general, just use a high res unit. If your problem are litrblade users, you can use things like panic ploy and dull ranged. If your problem are speedy high atk melee units, just play with the WTA. Lukas, Brave Ike, Zelgius, brazen skills + close defense...

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Atk and Spd aren't everything when we have skills like Quick Reposte, Luna, the Def and Res based specials, weapons with effectiveness vs certain types of units, etc.

Units like Micaiah, Felicia, and Caeda would suck otherwise. Micaiah has bad Spd, but a weapon that hits both cavs and armors hard and high Res for Glacies use. Felicia has high Spd, but shitty Atk that is made up for by her weapon and Glacies with high Res. Caeda is helped by her weapon too.

I'll also point out my +9 Frederick who kills pretty much anything with an Ignis trigger. He has high Atk, but meh Spd (though he is -Spd and could have decent Spd with buffs and neutral Spd. I plan to keep him +Def).

Tanks can be just as good as fast glass cannons.

Edited by Anacybele

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I'd disagree comparatively. A while back, sure, but recently with the addition of all the stance skills and especially the power boost armors have gotten, I fee like EP-oriented units are more viable now than they were last year.

The most recent banner features Ishtar, a glass cannon, Ares, a decent bulk cav whose sword let's him run either vantage + bonfire or AoE specials (EP or PP), and Lene, who brings with her a sword that's fantastic for EP oriented units and less appealing to PP units that want to ensure a ORKO. Julius is all about being a res tank.

Before that we had both Kanas who are more inclined to be EP or mixed phase units from what I've seen. Sure Hinoka is all glass cannon, and Shigure leans that way somewhat, but that's half and half.

Thracia had Reinhardt whose entire schtick is EP brave and Finn who has the statline of a mixed phase unit. Were he summomable, he could reasonably go either way. +spd would've put him at 34/36, 39/44 with L&D and a speed refine, but +def puts him at 35, 42 with a def refine and fury. Leif is the only super glass-cannony unit.

Edited by bottlegnomes

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I'm sorta getting the opposite vibe--I felt the meta was too oriented towards hyperoffensive glass-cannon offense strats at launch, and has been largely balanced out by more recent developments have pushed things is a slower, bulkier direction; namely:
 

  • the ability to throw ~breaker skills and quick riposte on everything under the sun after the release of skill inheritence
  • the release of quick riposte as S-Slot sacred seal that can be thrown on any slow and hard-hitting tank, without the need to sac a 5 star Tsubaki or something stupid
  • the massive proliferation of new armored units, and ways to abuse their low speed + high bulk stat spreads
  • the surge in bulky dragon usage after the release of sacred forging

...the only issue I see with the current meta is that its heavily biased in favor of units that can easily be merged up to +10 due to their general availability as 3 star and 4 star pulls (i.e. Tiki, Nino, Reindhardt, etc.)

Whereas heroes that should be amazing but only ever got released as 5 star seasonal specials or event rewards languish in the depths of underuse. 

Biggest improvement I would like to see to the meta is more of those units getting released at 3 and 4 star availability, and getting more time in the spotlight (I understand why they aren't doing that though--that would undermine the "gacha" element of the game).

The balance of the meta itself feels fine ATM. There's a pretty respectable number of heroes, builds, and strats that are viable atm. And there's nothing as overcentralizing or oppresive as--say--launch date Takumi running around. 

(#RIP Broken Takumi)
 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

It feels like with every new banner we get, we're pushing towards more glass cannons and speedsters with every new unit. And... I'm sorry, I just don't like that. I like using tanky units, but we're in a meta where Speed and Attack are the only things that matter most of the time. 

Lol, the meta is actually currently the exact opposite. Armors are the strongest units available, with Zelgius, M!Grima and Effie being the most ridiculous. Atk is still useful, but Spd is basically irrelevant because of Bold Fighter/Vengeful Fighter, and their high bulk makes them hard to one-shot and prevent you from getting doubled. Yes, they are expensive to build, but they are still the strongest, and you will see them in Arena a lot.

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Armors are mostly enemy phase units, dragons are mostly enemy phase units.  Both are tanky as hell, and extremely powerful and dominate arena.  Most of the banners this year in terms of meta changing units they have been tanks.  Zelgius?  Mega tank.  Myrrh?  Enemy phase.  Hardin?  Mega tank.  M F Robin?  Mega tank.  

 

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I find that defensive units require specific builds while offensive units are more flexible. Plus, generally speaking, most players find offensive units more fun to use.

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10 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

I find that defensive units require specific builds while offensive units are more flexible.

Eh?

Player-phase units have their flexibility in their B slot because they're pretty much locked to Death Blow 3, Life and Death 3, Fury 3, or Swift Sparrow 2 in their A slot.

Enemy-phase units have their flexibility in their A slot because they're pretty much locked to Quick Riposte 3 in their B slot or Sacred Seal slot, but leaves the other slot wide open.

The only big difference between the two is that the skills used by enemy-phase units are harder to come by. Quick Riposte 3 is still locked behind a 5-star promotion. Close Def 3, Distant Def 3, Close Counter, Distant Counter, Fierce Stance 3, Mirror Stance 3, Steady Breath, and Warding Breath are all locked behind 5-star exclusive characters.

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1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

It feels like with every new banner we get, we're pushing towards more glass cannons and speedsters with every new unit. And... I'm sorry, I just don't like that. I like using tanky units, but we're in a meta where Speed and Attack are the only things that matter most of the time. 

I agree with @Anacybele, Atk and Spd are not everything. Depending on your playstyle, access to resources, and what Arena Tier you are in, Spd is not even necessary for Player Phase nukes either if they run Firesweep and got Dancer/Singer support.

And as @bottlegnomes pointed out, Enemy Phase units are a lot more viable and more relevant. Dragons and armors are a huge pain in the ass for Player Phase nukes unless you run Firesweepers. Rival Domains and Grand Conquest are also much easier to complete with Enemy Phase units rather than Player Phase units (I slow push 7 dragons and a healer straight towards the enemy and most enemies die when they initiate).

Edited by XRay

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It kind of feels like the opposite to me. Due to arena's score system, tanky armors and dragons define the top of competitive play. Plus we've recently gotten more and more powerful tanky units with the likes of W Tharja, FH Robin, Hardin, Zelgius, LA Hector, Myrrh, etc. And the addition of Bold Fighter, Vengeful fighter and more dragon buffs have only given these types of units even more tools to play with.

If anything's having issues right now it's glass cannons, and especially ranged ones. They score worse in arena and the sheer bulk of the more high end enemy phase units can be pretty difficult to deal with. They added Chill skills that seem partly aimed at helping offensive units target tanks easier, but I don't think they've made nearly the type of impact that the Fighter skills have for armors. Glass canons, ranged units, etc. are still good, but as far as the more competitive modes go, they're the ones that have been lagging behind lately. Even if arena score value didn't favor armors and dragons so much, I think we'd still see them heavily used in high level play.

Edited by Alkaid

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Please, we were flooded with armour units from December to March. People were complaining about it back then, and now it looks like they've found something new to complain about. Personally I prefer Player Phase units, but that's mostly because it's easier to see how a matchup will go beforehand. I can be somewhat careless and miscalculate whether one of my EP units can tank a hit or not. But that's just a personal problem of mine, and I have seen plenty of scary and competent tanks at work (even use some well myself at times!).

So no, I don't think it's ALL in the Atk and Spd. Atk tends to be important for everyone sure, but there are ways to compensate, plus plenty of units who actually prefer a Spd bane and are at the top of the Tier list. (H!Jakob says hi)

Edited by Nanima

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Probably he feels in that way because most of the post-release mages are designed around being Atk + Spd (specially this one) or Atk + Res (the only exception that I remember is Boey, that it was like good def, decent everything else, and the of course, Winter Tharja that is mixed tank with Atk, but that is mostly because she is a armor unit).

Hmm now I will check every unit stat line focus, Post-Ayra... because... why not? xD

Ayra herself: Extreme Speed, overall good stats otherwise. - 1

Halloween Sakura: A more frail and powerful version of Felicia. - 2

Hallowen Jakob: Mixed tank with good Atk and bad Spd.

Halloween Henry: Weird Res Tank with decent Atk/Spd/Def

Mia: Ayra, but faster and less powerful otherwise. - 3

Lute: Good Atk/Res, decent Spd; HP/Def are dump

Dorcas: Good Atk and bulk, spd isn't that important

Fjorm: Balanced unit with high Res as the outliner.

Rhajat: High Atk/Spd, meh bulk - 4

Shiro: Like Donnel essencially

Siegbert: Fast and furious, decent physical bulk; Res is dump. - 5

Soleil: Gigantic Atk, good spd, decent otherwise. - 6

Winter Chrom: Mixed bulk, high Atk, unimportant spd.

Winter Robin: Good ofenssive stats, his bulk is also nice.

Winter Lissa: Overall balanced good unit

Winter Tharja: Mixed Tank with Good Atk and low Spd.

Gunnthrá: Good Atk/Spd, mediocre bulk - 7

NY!Takumi: Good offensive stats, decent res - 8

NY!Camilla: Good offensive stats and good def  -9

Zelgius: Like, the best thing in the game with only his res don't being that great.

Sothe: Great Atk, good Spd, meh bulk - 10

Micaiah: Great Atk/Res, her other stats are bordeline, and probably won't be that useful.

Myrhh: Very tanky mixed bulk, and good atk, speed is irrelevant to her.

L'Arachel: Good Atk/Res, decent Spd; Def isn't good.

SM!Eirika: Good Atk/Spd, mediocre bulk - 11

Vanguard Ike: Like the younger one, but better

Valentine Roy: Good Atk, decent bulk, low speed

Valentine Lyn: Fast Armor without any important weakness. - 12

Valentine Lilina: Powerful Atk, the rest of her stats are meh

Valentine Hector: Like the other Hector, but stronger

Fallen Robin M (Grima): Gigantic Atk, mixed bulk

Fallen Hardin: Overall good stats, bordeline spd.

Fallen Celica: Great Atk/Spd, decent otherwise - 13

Legendary Ephraim: Powerful, Speed isn't that important with his Weapon Skill.

F Morgan: Mag Tank with nice atk, bordeline spd.

M Morgan: The Good Atk/Spd Red Mage with okay-ish bulk.

Branded Chrom: Like Chrom with more Spd and a mount.

Spring Sharena: A Nino with more magical bulk. - 14

Spring Kagero: Great Atk/Spd with decent Res - 15

Spring Catria: Good-ish Atk and Great Spd with meh bulk - 16

Spring Alfonse: Good Atk/Spd/Def, mostly Atk

Fallen Robin F (Grima): Good Spd; otherwise decent-to-good stats - 17

Master Sword Reinhardt: Good Atk and mixed bulk

Green Olwen: Great Spd, bad Def, decent otherwise - 18

Nanna: Good Spd, other-wise mediocre-to-decent stats.

Leif: Like Ayra, but less lethal - 19

Shigure: 70 Offensive Flier combo; decent otherwise. -20

F Kana: Like F Corrin but with a bit more Atk, and also green - 21

Bow Hinoka: Similar to Brave Lyn, with a slightly different stat distribution - 22

Legendary Lyn: Great Spd; Good-ish Atk/Res - 23

Lene: Like Olivia, faster but also more frail.

Ishtar: Another of this good atk/spd blue mages with decent-ish res - 24

Ares: Great Atk/Def, his Spd is bordeline.

 

I counted 24 Units post Ayra (and Ayra) that are Atk/Spd focused

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49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The only big difference between the two is that the skills used by enemy-phase units are harder to come by.

^^^
This

The ease with which you can bum Fury + Desperation off a 4 Stat Hinata + Shanna means you can always throw together an at least baseline functional glass-cannon attacker on a budget build. (even if its not optimal; theres very, very, very few glass-cannon offensive units specializing in speed and attack where fury + desperation is unusably bad)  

Whereas a good enemy phase tank is always going to be more of a project to build. (i.e. currently working on my adult Tiki, now that i finally pulled an acceptably natured +res/-spd variant. Had to sack a brave ike to give her steady breadth. Running her on a budget build to gain SP atm with bonfire, vantage and the quick riposte seal. I'm at some point going to have to spend 20,000 feathers promoting tsubaki so that i can run quick riposte in her B slot and free up her S-Slot for Distant Defense, which is what she really wants to be running to flesh out her mixed bulk. Then at some point I'm going to have to spend another 20,000 feathers to promote chrom and give her Aether, so she can self-heal. And thats before I even start promoting my other Tikis for mergers)

Bulky offense is the way to go if you have the tools to build it, but glass-cannon aggro is the budget friendly alternative that gets you there.   

Edited by Shoblongoo

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It's not about Player Phase or Enemy Phase anymore. The best units in the games are doing Mixed Phase (both PP and EP), and doing it really well. DC Ayra is stupid on both phases, Steady Breath Bold Fighter QP/QR Zelgius is stupid on both phases, Steady Breath Bold Fighter QR Grima is stupid on both phases... Hell, when you climb up to high Tier 20 and only meet both armors, Steady Breath Windsweep Nowi is stupid on both phases.

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Issue is that the new armors are almost all 5* exclusives/seasonals (Black Knight being one of the few exceptions, along with Zephiel).  So good luck pulling them~!

Dragons are in a similar state, except Lightning Breath is in the 3*-4* pool.

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20 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Issue is that the new armors are almost all 5* exclusives/seasonals (Black Knight being one of the few exceptions, along with Zephiel).  So good luck pulling them~!

Dragons are in a similar state, except Lightning Breath is in the 3*-4* pool.

Draug, Gwendolyn, Effie, and Sheena are all in the 3-to-4-star summoning pool and are perfectly viable when built. Arden and Eliwood are both Tempest Trials rewards and are very viable, though suffer from very limited merges. Black Knight is a Tempest Trials reward and is available from the starter pack.

If you can somehow get your hands on 4 copies of Hector (unfortunately, the current starter Hero Fest banner isn't the one with Hector on it), it's not terribly difficult to make a viable highly merged armor team with just Draug, Gwendolyn, Effie, and Sheena. Getting enough copies of Hector is the hard part.

I really hope they add a skill shop sometime where we can exchange things (feathers or Arena Medallions) for skills so that Distant Counter is more available.

 

As much as the new dragons are nice, I'm still running my trainee launch dragons as my Arena core. Nowi and Fae are available from the 3-to-4-star summoning pool, and Awakening Tiki can easily be used as a substitute for Mystery Tiki. And two of them already have Lightning Breath+ as their default weapon.

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3 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

I'd disagree comparatively. A while back, sure, but recently with the addition of all the stance skills and especially the power boost armors have gotten, I fee like EP-oriented units are more viable now than they were last year.

The most recent banner features Ishtar, a glass cannon, Ares, a decent bulk cav whose sword let's him run either vantage + bonfire or AoE specials (EP or PP), and Lene, who brings with her a sword that's fantastic for EP oriented units and less appealing to PP units that want to ensure a ORKO. Julius is all about being a res tank.

Before that we had both Kanas who are more inclined to be EP or mixed phase units from what I've seen. Sure Hinoka is all glass cannon, and Shigure leans that way somewhat, but that's half and half.

Thracia had Reinhardt whose entire schtick is EP brave and Finn who has the statline of a mixed phase unit. Were he summomable, he could reasonably go either way. +spd would've put him at 34/36, 39/44 with L&D and a speed refine, but +def puts him at 35, 42 with a def refine and fury. Leif is the only super glass-cannony unit.

I agree with you on most stuff. I think Armorers are in a good spot now as Enemy Phase/mixed phase units. However Slow Infantry melee/mage units and slow Horse melee units that have no unique skill/weapon are in a really bad position when it comes to building them as an Enemy Phase unit.

I mean just look at Hawkeye. very mixed bulk and horrendously slow. There is no way with the current skills we have at disposal, that you can turn Hawkeye into a really good EP/mixed phase unit unless you use gem weapons/Triangle adept stuff.

Let me explain what I mean by good EP unit: a good EP unit can deal with the color they are strong too quite easy, and can deal with the same color decently. Sometimes with specials up they can even deal with the opposing color.

Hawkeye is quite... mmm crap. He cant deal even with all blue threats without running gem weapons or triangle adept. and is utterly destroyed when it comes to axe vs axe or green tome vs him matchups.

In that regard, i think there are some skills lacking for SLOW AND BULKY Infantry/flying/riding melee units, excluding Dragon users.

I think its high time for skills in the B Slot that take advantage of a really low SPD stat on Slow infantry/flying/riding units outside of personal weapon refine.

Brash Assault was supposed to fullfill that role as a Player phase bulky unit, but the HP restriction on it is basicly garbage.

 

EDIT: end lets not forget that high SPD translates indirectly into higher bulk, because it prevents doubles (unless the oponent is using Bold fighter or something that lets him attack twice regardless of spd)

Edited by Hilda

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12 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I agree with you on most stuff. I think Armorers are in a good spot now as Enemy Phase/mixed phase units. However Slow Infantry melee/mage units and slow Horse melee units that have no unique skill/weapon are in a really bad position when it comes to building them as an Enemy Phase unit..

 ..well thats the big qualifier...

We've seen this a few times now; every "bad" unit is potentially just one sacred forge update away from being really, really good.

-Foreblaze launched Lilina from shit tier to superstar overnight 
-Raven suddenly became a viable player phase unit when he got the Basilikos
-Felicia went from neverused to most viable dagger user in the game with Felicia's Plate 

Even heroes like Sophia and Rebecca are just one Apocalypse or Reinfletche patch away from greatness. Believe it.   

Edited by Shoblongoo

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22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Draug, Gwendolyn, Effie, and Sheena are all in the 3-to-4-star summoning pool and are perfectly viable when built. Arden and Eliwood are both Tempest Trials rewards and are very viable, though suffer from very limited merges. Black Knight is a Tempest Trials reward and is available from the starter pack.

If you can somehow get your hands on 4 copies of Hector (unfortunately, the current starter Hero Fest banner isn't the one with Hector on it), it's not terribly difficult to make a viable highly merged armor team with just Draug, Gwendolyn, Effie, and Sheena. Getting enough copies of Hector is the hard part.

I really hope they add a skill shop sometime where we can exchange things (feathers or Arena Medallions) for skills so that Distant Counter is more available.

 

As much as the new dragons are nice, I'm still running my trainee launch dragons as my Arena core. Nowi and Fae are available from the 3-to-4-star summoning pool, and Awakening Tiki can easily be used as a substitute for Mystery Tiki. And two of them already have Lightning Breath+ as their default weapon.

I'd really appreciate it if you'd read my stuff before replying.

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2 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

 

 ..well thats the big qualifier...

We've seen this a few times now; every "bad" unit is potentially just one sacred forge update away from being really, really good.

-Foreblaze launched Lilina from shit tier to superstar overnight 
-Raven suddenly became a viable player phase unit when he got the Basilikos
-Felicia went from neverused to most viable dagger user in the game with Felicia's Plate 

Even heroes like Sophia and Rebecca are just one Apocalypse or Reinfletche patch away from greatness. Believe it.   

none of those 3 units you just mentioned were initially Enemy phase units, well ecxept for Felicia as a magical tank

and most of the enemy phase units they didnt get right at all

Roy even with his QR update is still kinda bad honestly.
Leo is meh
George is uuuuuh
Chrom is uuuuuuhh situational just like Roy (too situational)
Seliph is crap because he lacks his fathers personal skill, even with the refine.
Julia is just a glorified dragon killer, just like her mother
 

They got Alm and Ephraim right, because their weapon upgrade turned them into mixed phase units that can excell as a player phase unit, when baiting an enemy isnt gonna cut it.

I mean none of the Refines that were supposed to be EP refines really did get the job done.
 

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'd really appreciate it if you'd read my stuff before replying.

You were saying that it is a problem that all of the new shiny is 5-star exclusive. I was saying that it doesn't matter because all of the old characters are still perfectly viable and are commonly available.

 

16 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

We've seen this a few times now; every "bad" unit is potentially just one sacred forge update away from being really, really good.

-Foreblaze launched Lilina from shit tier to superstar overnight 
-Raven suddenly became a viable player phase unit when he got the Basilikos
-Felicia went from neverused to most viable dagger user in the game with Felicia's Plate 

Even heroes like Sophia and Rebecca are just one Apocalypse or Reinfletche patch away from greatness. Believe it.   

Lilina was already tied for the best infantry red tome user before getting Forblaze. Forblaze only pushed her one tier up.

Raven moved up only one tier with Basilikos.

Felicia is still tiered below Sakura, Takumi, and Sothe.

 

Sophia is already ranked highly as she is only one tier below Celica and Sanaki. Her Close Counter Raudhrowl build is apparently pretty absurd.

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Just now, Ice Dragon said:

You were saying that it is a problem that all of the new shiny is 5-star exclusive. I was saying that it doesn't matter because all of the old characters are still perfectly viable and are commonly available.

That isn't what I said.  You're missing a word, and that word makes all the difference.

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