General JRPG Topic

[Tryhard]

On 11/12/2018 at 10:29 PM, eclipse said:

FFXV is my favorite FF, fight me.

Rather than look at what went wrong, I look at what went right.  I don't know what they did with the graphics, but I can play it without getting motion sick.  The last one that sort-of did that was Star Ocean IV.  The characters blow everything out of the water (even Trails, and I adore that series), and it's a matter of "so what do you want to do today?" for as long as you want. . .until you choose to advance the game, that is.

the real reason is that the fact it's a road trip with four guys, right?

[Water Mage]

57 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Nah, no thanks.
And besides, my favourite FF game isn't that widely beloved in the FF community, either, so... yeah. I don't know many FF fans who would put FFXII on top of their lists, is all I'm saying.

Brother! Another who has 12 as their favorite!  Thought it ties with 5 for me. 5’s job system is just too fun!

My only complaint about 12 is that I wish the characters interacted more with each other, they felt like strangers all the way till the end of the game. Something like the skits from the Tales series would have helped.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Water Mage

[Lief]

Count me in in the XII fan club (though I played the Zodiac Age version). I tried out I and II, and got a ways through III, IV, V, and VI, but XII is my fave because of the world, music, visual design, and battle system. Though, it helps that it isn’t an old 2D JRPG that still feels like those older entries.

Modern FF needs to step up its game and pump out more games on the level of XII’s quality, new fans shouldn’t have to play NES/SNES games to experience the best of the series. Though admittedly I haven’t played XV, so I’m only assuming its level of quality based on all the videos I’ve watched dissect the game inside out.

[DragonFlames]

51 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Brother! Another who has 12 as their favorite!  Thought it ties with 5 for me. 5’s job system is just too fun!

My only complaint about 12 is that I wish the characters interacted more with each other, they felt like strangers all the way till the end of the game. Something like the skits from the Tales series would have helped.

True, true. That's one of my few criticisms, as well. Though the character interaction that is there, I quite enjoy.

28 minutes ago, Lief said:

Count me in in the XII fan club (though I played the Zodiac Age version). I tried out I and II, and got a ways through III, IV, V, and VI, but XII is my fave because of the world, music, visual design, and battle system. Though, it helps that it isn’t an old 2D JRPG that still feels like those older entries.

Modern FF needs to step up its game and pump out more games on the level of XII’s quality, new fans shouldn’t have to play NES/SNES games to experience the best of the series. Though admittedly I haven’t played XV, so I’m only assuming its level of quality based on all the videos I’ve watched dissect the game inside out.

Ayyy! It's always nice to see love for the games you like.
I played both the original on the PS2 and the Zodiac Age version, and in my personal opinion, the Zodiac Version is the better game, just for having a job system in it.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I don't know many FF fans who would put FFXII on top of their lists, is all I'm saying.

This is coming from someone who hasn't touched a single Final Fantasy game but i think the reason 12 may be unappreciated or whatever is because it's in that dead zone of FF games. Final Fantasy 9 through 12 feel forgotten and possibly underrated (again, i'm speaking as an outsider who has never played a FF game). The only exception is FF10 because the Tidus laugh is an immortal meme.

Compared to the first five games, which built the series, FF6, which everyone who's played it says is better than 7, FF7, THE JRPG during the PS1 era, FF8, which is a bit infamous, FF13, which gets ripped to shreds and is considerd to be the worst FF, FF14, which is a beloved MMO, and FF15, which probably went through the worst development hell in gaming history.

[Slumber]

XII has gotten a lot more love recently. 

I think a lot of it has to do with the Zodiac Age. I played the International Zodiac Job System back in 2010ish, and as somebody who never thought highly of FFXII, the IZJS edition just adds so much structure and balance to the combat. I used to HATE the License board, but it turns out that giving people unique license boards based on their jobs helps a ton. 

And the ZA version is just an up-rezed version of the IZJS edition+A speed hack built in. I'd go as far as to say XII is probably in my top 5 FFs now, after years and years of saying "Final Fantasy hasn't been good since IX!" 

You say you love XII nowadays, and I guarantee you'll get more "Me too!"s than" XII sucks"s. The people saying the latter have almost certainly not played the ZA version, at least. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Slumber

[Lief]

Yeah, the speed control really helps when you’re trying to get rare drops or running through an area. Doesn’t help that there’s a noticeable RNG component when it comes to getting rare marks to spawn, or stealing the Dark Matter from Deathgaze, or getting one of the powerful Break Techniks that’s randomly gotten from a normal chest. Really, the ZA version downplays the flaws of the original XII and allows the strengths of XII to stick with players more.

[Water Mage]

Though I think the best part of XII is the world building. It’s just so well done!

That being said, the lore behind a lot bosses is funny in a way that it means that the party was killing godly beings like it was nothing. Seriously, no FF party can compare to XII’s party when it comes to slaying gods, apocalyptic beings and the like. And yet I love reading the lore, overdramatic as it is.

[Slumber]

55 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Though I think the best part of XII is the world building. It’s just so well done!

That being said, the lore behind a lot bosses is funny in a way that it means that the party was killing godly beings like it was nothing. Seriously, no FF party can compare to XII’s party when it comes to slaying gods, apocalyptic beings and the like. And yet I love reading the lore, overdramatic as it is.

It depends on how you look at that.

The Espers in FFXII have had their asses kicked and are put into exile by the Occuria. The Scions of Darkness, at least. Ultima may as well be Satan, but Ultima's power is nebulous at best from what I recall. Zodiark is the most powerful of them by far, and the only one explicitly stated to rival the Occuria, but he's in hardcore "I don't really give a shit" mode during the events of XII. The Occuria are more like the true godly beings of FFXII, and you don't really fight any of them. You fight Venat by proxy, but Venat is mostly empowering humans like Cid and Vayne.

I'd say FFXII's party goes from "Fighting random monsters" to "HOLY SHIT WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS" faster and more consistently than most FF parties, but I'd argue on the whole, the parties of FFV, VI, VIII, and IX accomplish more singular impressive fights by the end of the games.

 

Barts's party defeat a psycho tree that spams actual black holes like it's going out of style, Terra/Celes/Locke's party beat a literal God of magic, Squall's party beats a sorceress who can manipulate space and time at will, and Zidane's party literally beats death itself.

So all in all, I'd say XII's crew has more impressive feats numerically, but they don't take down the biggest game of the franchise's protagonists.

Also I guess by proxy, the Tactics army pulls off largely the same crazy feats as the XII party. They don't take out any crazy Occuria-powered people or Zodiark(Who may or may not have been replaced by Elibidus), but they take out Ultima, which is probably the single most powerful being the XII crew take out.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Slumber

[Armagon]

I'm gonna interrupt this FF12 discussion because i just finished another JRPG and it's time for me to talk about it

Superdimension Neptune vs Sega Hard Girls

I told myself, i told myself that i wouldn't play another Neptunia game until i've cleared the other games on my backlog. That didn't work. This series is too fun and it keeps pulling me back in. Help. Thankfully though, Superdimension Neptune vs Sega Hard Girls was super short. It's maybe like what, 12 hours long. Like every other Neptunia game, it provided plentiful memeful scenes that i can post on my Twitter completely out context. But anyway, let's get into what i liked

What i liked

• This is one of the few Neptunia games were Neptune isn't the protagonist (even if she insists that she is). Instead, the protagonist is IF and it provided a nice change of pace, especially given that she's in the Top 5 of best Neptunia girls (making that list is so hard btw, there are too many best girls in this series).
• Symmetric Generation, the OP, is a banger
• This game went in a bold direction because there were no Noire, Blanc and Vert. There was also no CPU Canidates aside from Nepgear. The only characters from the Hyperdimension Neptunia side of this crossover were IF, Neptune, Nepgear, Plutia, Uzume and Histoire and the new character Segami. I thought i wasn't going to enjoy it because of that but i was pleasantly surprised. 
• The Sega Hard Girls were fun characters themselves though i have no desire to explore their series because i found out that they come from an anime and said anime is a very bad CGI anime.
• The combat was a bit slow but was an interesting take on the Hyperdimension Neptunia formula. The only problem is that there is essentially a win-button exploit during the second arc and onwards that turned every boss battle, including the final boss, into a cakewalk.
• The game came out in 2016 and one of the "chapters" is literally called "Make History Great Again" and given that the game came out in 2016, that reference was absolutely intentional (and definitely added in by the localization)

What i didn't like

• Plot progression was.....weird. It's not linear, due to wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey stuff. The way it works is that you accept missions from Histoire but once their done, you have to report back to her. So instead of progressing the plot normally, you have to go back and forward between the story and Histoire and it just breaks up the pacing of the plot.
• The game has very little boss fights. In fact, the entire Game Gear arc during the second arc of the game is completely devoid of any boss battles. And when you get the true end in the Dreamcast era, there is no boss fight. At all. Even Neptune comments on how there feels like there should be a boss fight.
• The dungeon design got super repetitive again. Literal copy-pasting. This was after Megadimension, which had actually decent dungeons, so i don't know what happened here.
• Like most games in the series for some reason, getting the true ending is cryptic. Not as cryptic as in Mk2/Rebirth 3, Victory/Rebirth 3 or Megadimension but still too hidden for my tastes. No where does it say that you have to go back to the very first dungeon, especially since said dungeon has nothing of value, it's just a tutorial level.

Conclusion

Definitely a solid 7.5/10 JRPG (8/10 if we look at the dialouge). A short, bite-sized Neptunia game that was fun and i would totally play it again in the future.

With that out of the way, let's see if i can finish Xenosaga Episode III before Neptune pulls me back into playing more Hyperdimension Neptunia games.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Armagon

[DragonFlames]

On 15.11.2018 at 2:42 AM, Water Mage said:

Though I think the best part of XII is the world building. It’s just so well done!

That being said, the lore behind a lot bosses is funny in a way that it means that the party was killing godly beings like it was nothing. Seriously, no FF party can compare to XII’s party when it comes to slaying gods, apocalyptic beings and the like. And yet I love reading the lore, overdramatic as it is.

The world building is my favourite part, as well. I love the subtlety of it all, especially in its true villains (by which I mean the Occuria).
I love reading the lore behind the monsters, too.

On 15.11.2018 at 3:32 AM, Slumber said:

It depends on how you look at that.

The Espers in FFXII have had their asses kicked and are put into exile by the Occuria. The Scions of Darkness, at least. Ultima may as well be Satan, but Ultima's power is nebulous at best from what I recall. Zodiark is the most powerful of them by far, and the only one explicitly stated to rival the Occuria, but he's in hardcore "I don't really give a shit" mode during the events of XII. The Occuria are more like the true godly beings of FFXII, and you don't really fight any of them. You fight Venat by proxy, but Venat is mostly empowering humans like Cid and Vayne.

I'd say FFXII's party goes from "Fighting random monsters" to "HOLY SHIT WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS" faster and more consistently than most FF parties, but I'd argue on the whole, the parties of FFV, VI, VIII, and IX accomplish more singular impressive fights by the end of the games.

  Reveal hidden contents

Barts's party defeat a psycho tree that spams actual black holes like it's going out of style, Terra/Celes/Locke's party beat a literal God of magic, Squall's party beats a sorceress who can manipulate space and time at will, and Zidane's party literally beats death itself.

So all in all, I'd say XII's crew has more impressive feats numerically, but they don't take down the biggest game of the franchise's protagonists.

Also I guess by proxy, the Tactics army pulls off largely the same crazy feats as the XII party. They don't take out any crazy Occuria-powered people or Zodiark(Who may or may not have been replaced by Elibidus), but they take out Ultima, which is probably the single most powerful being the XII crew take out.

The story behind the Espers is one they could have fleshed out a little more in my opinion. I would really like to know more about them. Though on the other hand, I feel like the things the game doesn't tell you make them all the more interesting. Same with the Occuria, really.
Useless as they may be in gameplay (at least when compared to what FFX gave you), these guys are - to me at least - the most interesting summons the series has had so far.

As for Zodiark, you don't even fight him in his full-powered state, as evidenced by his second form he only gets during his finisher / ultimate attack / whatever you want to call it.

Edited November 16, 2018 by DragonFlames

[Water Mage]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

The world building is my favourite part, as well. I love the subtlety of it all, especially in its true villains (by which I mean the Occuria).
I love reading the lore behind the monsters, too.

One of the best things about the monster lore in FF12 is the fact that they even have explanations as for why recolors of enemies exist, such adaptations to a different environment. So even if the enemies are recolors, they still feel original.

[DragonFlames]

1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

One of the best things about the monster lore in FF12 is the fact that they even have explanations as for why recolors of enemies exist, such adaptations to a different environment. So even if the enemies are recolors, they still feel original.

100% truth right here.

[Slumber]

That reminds me of how good Final Fantasy was about palette swaps for a long while there. 

I want to say they were very minimal from... Maybe 4-5 until X. I know that 7, 8 and 9 were very minimal with that kind of thing. I only really recall boss monsters getting reused when they became normal enemies. 

Then X came, and palette swapped the hell out of its monsters. And X didn't have a horribly big bestiary to begin with. 

XII palette swapped a lot, but it was definitely a lot more tasteful/subtle about it. 

[Water Mage]

29 minutes ago, Slumber said:

 

XII palette swapped a lot, but it was definitely a lot more tasteful/subtle about it. 

I think the reason it felt more tasteful was because of what I said before, as every palette swap has a lore behind, but also, the enemies felt like they belong in their environment, in both color and appearance. In previous game you would often run into Elementals in a generic road, flying cats in a shrine and Chimeras in a castle, which all felt really out place. And really often their colors would clash with the place they appear. Rarely monsters felt out of place in FF12 and when it did it usually had an explanation behind it.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Water Mage

[eclipse]

On 11/14/2018 at 2:46 AM, Tryhard said:

the real reason is that the fact it's a road trip with four guys, right?

Four CUTE guys, it's important!

I'm trying to get through XII on my toaster.  It's somewhat painful, as I can't play for too long before I get sick to my stomach.  I'm not sure how much I like the job system yet, but I think there's hope!

[Water Mage]

On 17/11/2018 at 5:45 AM, eclipse said:

Four CUTE guys, it's important!

I'm trying to get through XII on my toaster.  It's somewhat painful, as I can't play for too long before I get sick to my stomach.  I'm not sure how much I like the job system yet, but I think there's hope!

Because of motion sickness right?

Despite the beginning feel like there’s too much action, it’s actually game with rather slow movement. Or is it the walking that makes you sick? Because if so I’m really can’t of anything, and I’m really sorry I can’t help you.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Water Mage

[Jingle Jangle]

For my birthday I got a ps4 and Persona 5, so far the presentation catches my eye. Any tips I should be aware about?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

34 minutes ago, Jingle Bells said:

For my birthday I got a ps4 and Persona 5, so far the presentation catches my eye. Any tips I should be aware about?

• Early game fights are extremely dependent on discovering and exploiting enemy weaknesses, so try to keep one user of each element in your party/Persona stock for experimentation.
• Don't overdo it in palaces. If you're out of SP, that means you can't heal without burning items. Go as far as you can in order to make the most out of that day, but return to save rooms often and rely on the game's stealth mechanics to avoid fights if you're in trouble.
• When hanging out with your "confidants" bring a persona of a matching arcana. I feel like the game doesn't do a good job of reminding you and I've seen a lot of new players make this mistake almost every time.

And some things I noticed after my first playthrough:

• The "Death" Confidant is very worth advancing because of an accessory that restores SP each turn, which helps you explore palaces for longer than you'd normally be able to. They're pricy in the early game, but if you advance that Confidant just a few more ranks after that, said accessories drop in price by half. So I highly recommend focusing on this one early.
  • In general, however, most confidants give you worthwhile skills and boosts in this game, so don't fuss too much about who to spend time with, they're all worth it.
• Swift Strike is broken. It matches end game physical skills in damage output. Really the only good physical skills are the ones that hit multiple times, which not only do more damage but have higher crit chances as a result of the multiple strikes.
• Status moves like Dormina may not seem worth it in random encounters, and straight up fail on proper boss fights, but minibosses and enemies that lack a weakness tend to be very susceptible to them. 
• Kindness is a hard social stat to raise, and there's an often missed method of raising it involving the plant in your room.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Glennstavos

[eclipse]

On 11/18/2018 at 9:17 AM, Water Mage said:

Because of motion sickness right?

Despite the beginning feel like there’s too much action, it’s actually game with rather slow movement. Or is it the walking that makes you sick? Because if so I’m really can’t of anything, and I’m really sorry I can’t help you.

It's because the graphics are rendered at one of the lowest possible settings, because it's all my computer can do.  Thus, everything's jerky.

[Armagon]

My thoughts on Xenosaga Episode III: Also sprach Zarathustra

So i finally finished Xenosaga Episode III and man, what a game. I enjoyed it (mostly) from start to finish and it's easily the best in the trilogy in every aspect: music, characters, story and gameplay. So let's get into detail.

What i liked

• After the absolute mistake that was Episode II's combat, i have to say that i really enjoyed Episode III's combat. It was simpler yet got more complext as the game went on. Every character has two skill trees that you can invest in, allowing for customization.
• Following that up, the E.S battles are the best mech battles in the series (note: I haven't played Xenoblade X, i can't judge the Skell battles there). They are nice and cinematic and the customization of different weapons allows you to mix and match elements (you can't change pilots anymore). Fuel returns from Xenogears in the form of energy but it never runs out. Instead, it dictates how many times you can attack. Attacks have different energy consumption and the more energy you have, the earlier you can attack in the next turn. You can't change E.S crafts mid-combat, which is odd since you could in Episode II but it's not big deal.
• Shion and KOS-MOS really shine in this game. In fact, Shion's definitely the 2nd best Xeno protag. She does some really dumb things near the end of the game (more on that later) but it's established at several points throughout the trilogy that she's emotionally unstable, so i never rolled my eyes at the dumb things she did. I also really liked her more casual design here, which makes sense given that she quits her job in between Episode II and III.
• The rest of the cast was pretty good too though i did feel that some them were rather irrelevant. MOMO, for example, who was pivotal to the plot in the previous two games, kinda just takes a back seat here. Ziggy was also kinda irrelevant until near the end of the game.
• It's obvious that the story was compressed. Because Namco told Monolith Soft to can the story after Episode III, the team had to compress Episodes 3 through 6 into one game and it shows. There's several plot points that you could tell were changed to accommodate and i'm pretty sure that the Xenosaga: A Missing Year animation was meant to be it's own game. I never saw it but the game does go over the important details. It's for these reasons that i think the story falls a bit short compared to Xenogears, Xenoblade 1 and 2 but they still did a pretty great job.
• While the enemy can still Boost, it's no longer as bullshit as it was in Episode II. You'll really only see bosses Boost and not that often. I still think they shouldn't Boost at all but i won't complain.
• Godsibb. While Dimitri Yuriev wasn't a particularly great villain (he was good enough), he's associated with Godsibb, the best battle theme in not just the whole trilogy but in the whole series pre-Blade (and is honestly really up there with the best of Xenoblade songs).
• Erde Kaiser Sigma is the most stupidly broken thing i have ever seen. I ended the second T-elos fight in two hits. The Red Testament fight took me three hits. Erde Kaiser Sigma is so broken that it made the final boss look incredibly weak. It died within two hits of Erde Kaiser Sigma. It is the ultimate "fuck you, i win" button.

Spoiler

Wilhelm was a pretty interesting villain. You see him with the Testaments multiple times so you kinda figure he's a villain but then it's revealed that he's essentially Darth Sidious in how he manipulated every side of the conflict. And his goal wasn't evil at all. He was trying to stop the destruction of the universe by resetting it to the beginning of time over and over again. In fact, Shion and friends kinda temporarily doomed the universe by destorying Zarathustra, though they do depart for Lost Jersualem a.k.a Earth in hopes of a new anwser in order to save the universe. So even though the trilogy is over, it ended in a way that allows for a future game if it were ever to happen.

What i didn't like

• So you can attack multiple times as long as you have energy in E.S battles. But if you miss, that's it. Say you selected four attacks but you miss the second one. Your turn stops there. It gets particularly annoying when fighting bosses with high evasion.
• Skill trees get pretty expansive so even though you have the option of two, you should only really invest in one Skill Tree. I didn't like how it didn't encourage you to fill out both.
• T-elos.....did not have a lot of screentime. She was good in the scenes she's in but for what is essentially the anti-KOS-MOS, she wasn't there most of the time. Black Testament has more screentime than her and compared to the other Testaments, he's hardly important or impactful.
• Speaking of, Black Testament was awful. All of the other Testaments had reasons and weren't blatantly evil but Black Testament was just evil because why not.
• White Testament got shafted. Those who've played know who he is. It's clear that he was meant for bigger roles but because Episode III turned out differently than what was intended, he didn't get a chance to shine.
• Spoiler

  Which is a big shame because Albedo was so good in the previous two games

  Spoiler

  Red Testament, a.k.a Kevin Winniecot a.k.a Shion's boyfriend was pretty bad. His motivations near the end of the game confused me. Oh he was just using Shion. Oh, now he actually cares about her. Shion, while i forgive most of her dumb decisions, acted really out of character. There is an actual boss fight in which you have to fight both Shion and Kevin. Kevin clearly attacks her friends and Shion just stands there until both Allen and KOS-MOS talk some really good sense into her. And then, while Wilhelm is torturing Shion, Kevin pulls a Darth Vader and saves her. Like, what? Kevin was just dumb. And i know i said i never rolled my eyes at Shion's decisions but i that was a lie. This one part was pretty dumb, even if she is emotionally unstable. I don't understand why she would stand with Kevin as he attacks her friends.

  The game got trigger happy with character deaths in the end. All of the major bosses just go out anti-climatically (even T-elos and Wilhelm, though he wasn't a boss), Cannan dies but he's got so little screentime so i didn't care that much and then Jin dies because why? I dunno, i felt that the final escape scene wasn't needed.

   

Conclusion

Is Xenosaga Episode III and the rest of the trilogy worth playing? Yes, absolutely. I had a blast with this game and even though it's flaws show the most out of any Xeno game, it's still a wonderful game and it has the best gameplay in the series pre-Xenoblade. It has a better story than Xenosaga Episodes I, II and Xenoblade X but it falls a bit short compared to Xenogears, Xenoblade 1, 2 and Torna ~ The Golden Country. Even if you judge it as a trilogy, i still think Xenogears, Xenoblade 1, 2 and Torna tell a better story. I'd do a proper ranking but i think i'll save that for another time.

 

And with that out of the way, i can focus my time on Trails of Azure, with Baten Kaitos after that though there's a 60% chance that i'll get sucked into a Hyperdimension Neptunia game instead.....again.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Armagon

[Lightchao42]

20 hours ago, Armagon said:

Shion and KOS-MOS really shine in this game. In fact, Shion's definitely the 2nd best Xeno protag. She does some really dumb things near the end of the game (more on that later) but it's established at several points throughout the trilogy that she's emotionally unstable, so i never rolled my eyes at the dumb things she did. I also really liked her more casual design here, which makes sense given that she quits her job in between Episode II and III.

I'm interested in hearing how you define how "good" (well-written?) each protagonist is. And the plots and villains too I suppose; since every Xeno game was made by the same developer I'd like to see your opinion on Monolith Soft's writing as it changed over time.

[Armagon]

16 hours ago, Lightchao42 said:

I'm interested in hearing how you define how "good" (well-written?) each protagonist is. And the plots and villains too I suppose; since every Xeno game was made by the same developer I'd like to see your opinion on Monolith Soft's writing as it changed over time.

Oh boy, i get to right a whole essay on this. I'll be going from best to worst.

Fei Fong Wong (Xenogears)

I've said it before but Fei is the best Xeno protagonist in my opinion. What's interesting about him is that he's the only Xeno protag without a proper goal. I mean, he does get one near the end but for a majority of Xenogears, he's just wandering around and getting dragged into conflicts that he, quite honestly, doesn't want to be a part of. He also doesn't actually have a weapon, his weapon is his fist. I don't mean knuckle weapons, i mean literal fists. Fei has a lot of mental and emotional complexities to him, which explain why he's wandering around for most of the game. The mental complexities are taken a step further when you take into account that he has split-personality disorder, with the other personality being Id. 

Spoiler

The way the split personality happened is similar to what happened with Mythra. Both received intense emotional trauma (Fei accidentally killed his mother while Mythra was the cause behind Torna's demise and feels responsible for Milton's death) and created another personality because of it. But while Pyra is sweet, Id wants to murder everything.

Fei's romance with Elly is also really well done. It's definitely the best romance in the series. Unlike Shulk x Fiora and Rex x Pyra/Mythra, there aren't really any "lovey-dovey" moments between Fei and Elly (well there might be, i don't remember). The thing with romances in a lot of romances in media (especially Japanese media, maybe it's because i've seen too much anime but this is what i've seen) is that romances are portrayed in the ideal way and not realistically. I've never been in a romantic relationship but uh, i'm pretty sure that a majority of romances in real life are not what you see in video games, anime, movies and even books. But Fei x Elly isn't like that. That romance feels pretty realistic. I don't mean that Shulk x Fiora and Rex x Pyra/Mythra aren't good romances (they are) but those fall into the "ideal romance" category.

Spoiler

Ironically, Fei x Elly has this huge fate thing going on, as both of them continuously reincarnated over a period of 10,000 years. They were fated to fall in love and Elly was always fated to die first in a tragedy. The cycle is broken at the end of Xenogears which hopefully means the two can finally lead happy lives (assuming nothing terrible happens in whatever Xenogears Episode 6 was supposed to be).

 

Shion Uzuki (Xenosaga Trilogy)

Shion, like Fei has a lot of mental and emotional complexities to her. In fact, out of all the Xeno protags, she's probably the most emotionally unstable, and it really shows in Episode III, where she has emotional breakdowns twice, i think. Contrary to Fei though, she actually has a goal (several throughout the whole trilogy) and also a proper job (she quits in between Episodes II and III). Unlike Fei who spends most of his game wandering around, Shion likes to go into conflicts willingly. She takes a lot of risks and may even do some illegal things if it means getting what she wants. But back to the mental and emotional complexities, the thing about Shion is that she gets less logical and more emotionally unstable as the trilogy progresses. She goes from wanting to save humanity in Episode I to resenting it in Episode III. She has an existential crisis, feeling that she doesn't belong and would also blame everyone for everything (in particular, she blames her brother Jin for their parents' deaths).

Spoiler

While i think Shion is normally a good character, i do think what she did near the end of Episode III was super dumb. To repeat myself from what i said in my review

Quote

Red Testament, a.k.a Kevin Winniecot a.k.a Shion's boyfriend was pretty bad. His motivations near the end of the game confused me. Oh he was just using Shion. Oh, now he actually cares about her. Shion, while i forgive most of her dumb decisions, acted really out of character. There is an actual boss fight in which you have to fight both Shion and Kevin. Kevin clearly attacks her friends and Shion just stands there until both Allen and KOS-MOS talk some really good sense into her. And then, while Wilhelm is torturing Shion, Kevin pulls a Darth Vader and saves her. Like, what? Kevin was just dumb. And i know i said i never rolled my eyes at Shion's decisions but i that was a lie. This one part was pretty dumb, even if she is emotionally unstable. I don't understand why she would stand with Kevin as he attacks her friends.

 

 

Rex (Xenoblade Chronicles 2)

I really like Rex. While he's definitely the most shounen out of the protagonists (that was the intention btw), he's still at the top of the Xenoblade protagonists. Rex's motivations may be basic but it's growth that's a real highlight.....which makes sense given that XC2 is intended to be a coming-of-age story. He starts out weak and cocky, not really knowing how to be a Driver. He gets his ass kicked several times but also learns as a Driver. This is even reflected in gameplay, where throughout the Mor Ardain portion of Ch.4, Pyra is replaced by Mythra. So both Rex and the player learn how to use the new power presented to them. My opinion of Rex further increased (and slightly decreased) after Torna. Sure, it's implied that Rex is Addam's descendant but the twist here is that Addam technically failed. Yes, Malos was stopped 500 years ago but that didn't stop the death of three Titans. For heaven's sake, Addam's home sank beneath the Cloud Sea and Malos wasn't completely destroyed.

Spoiler

Addam also failed to unlock Mythra's true power because he was afraid. He was afraid of her power which, when awakening her, caused Mythra to put a limiter on her power, only made worse by the events of Torna. Rex fixed that. He accepted the Aegis power, which caused Pneuma to finally appear. It's not often that you see a descendant of a great hero actually fix the mistakes that the hero made.

There's also this really cool analysis on Rex's character that i've read about. It's spoiler-heavy so

Spoiler

"That’s why it’s crucial to the Platonic interpretation of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 that Rex and his friends don’t simply disappear after their confrontation with Malos, nor does the game simply end there: they return to the world below, armed with everything they learned from the Architect up above. More specifically, I think the end of the game ties off our Platonic interpretation in a surprisingly satisfying way: it suggests that, throughout the game, Rex has been undergoing training to become a philosopher king.

Plato’s view of the philosopher king as the ideal ruler emerges in his Republic. He compares the state to a ship (another one of his most famous metaphors); the pilot of such a ship, Plato thinks, must know and attend to everything affecting his ship—from the wind, to the stars, to the heavens—if he aims to really succeed at piloting it. This kind of pilot, according to Plato, needs to be wise and virtuous: they must care selflessly for the good of the people, be willing to live a simple, unadorned life, and have access to the Forms that constitute reality itself. The ruler with these qualities is Plato’s philosopher king.

Rex’s youthful adherence to “the power of friendship” and “making people happy” might be read as Nintendo simply making the game more child-friendly, but I think that something more nuanced is going on here. Rex exhibits the exact traits required of a philosopher king:

He is selfless, first instinctually and then self-consciously. From the beginning of the story, Rex commits all sorts of selfless deeds, such as sending money home to his family, seeking a new place for humanity to live, and helping Pyra fulfill her goal of reaching Elysium. When he finally reaches the Architect and reflects on his own purpose—acting for his own reasons, rather than serving as a mere instrument for the goals of others—he deliberately chooses the same kind of selflessness, proclaiming that his role in the world is to put smiles on people’s faces and help them live their lives together.

He never seeks a lavish life of wealth. Rex has humble roots as a salvager, and he’s never tempted by riches or power as he proceeds through his journey and meets people from all of Alrest. Perhaps the best evidence of this is that, from the beginning of the game all the way through to its conclusion, Rex continues to quote the Salvager’s Code: a simple rubric for human decency by which he’s always lived his life.

His curiosity and drive to understand the world lead him to the Architect and knowledge of the world’s Forms. By the end of the game, Rex has the exact kind of understanding that Plato believes a philosopher king must have.

But it’s not enough to simply hear the Architect’s origin story: to truly become a philosopher king, Rex needs to be able to recognize the Forms independently of any particular object in the world that participates in a Form. And this, I think, is what explains one of the most apparently unmotivated sequences of events in the game: the sacrifice of Pneuma, and the subsequent return of Mythra and Pyra.

It can be challenging to initially digest the scene in which Pneuma sacrifices herself to destroy the World Tree before it can fall on Alrest: after a saga tackling a wide range of themes and intricate plotlines, it’s easy to feel dissatisfied by the game culminating in all of Rex’s friends telling him that he needs to “be a grown-up” and let Pneuma go. If we interpret Rex as a boy on a journey to become a philosopher king, though, this scene transforms from a thematic blemish to a thematic necessity.

This moment in the game isn’t just necessary in the sense that “a real king needs to be a grown-up”: it’s necessary because, if Rex is to become a philosopher king, he needs to free himself from personal attachments that would prevent him from thinking about the entirety of existence and the place of his entire kingdom within existence. Plato actually offers yet another metaphor that explains this precise moment in Rex’s maturation as a philosopher king.

And it is fairly evident, I think, that Rex is being groomed in his journey to become the leader of the new, unified world that emerges after the World Tree is destroyed. Throughout his quest, Rex meets all the other leaders of the world’s nations and sees their shortcomings:

Amalthus is a corrupt despot.

King Eulogimenos is a usurper who falsely claimed Addam’s bloodline in an effort to unite his people.

King Niall is an untempered child ruler, who alternately looks to his sister for guidance and rushes to martyr himself to protect others.

And, even though we know least about Queen Raqura, her deep suspicion of both other rulers and Pyra make her an unlikely candidate to unite people from across the world.

It is Rex who has the global perspective, selfless disposition, and philosophical knowledge necessary to lead a united world as its philosopher king.

And, while it’s certainly not the argumentative be-all and end-all, it doesn’t hurt that Rex’s name is the Latin word for ‘king’."

If you wanna read the whole analysis on Xenoblade 2's plot, i'll link to it here. It's super interesting and if you haven't given it a read yet, you should.

The only problem i have with Rex is

Spoiler

In Torna, it's essentially revealed that his journey up to the end of Ch.7 is essentially predetermined. Subverted because no one knew this prophecy, not even Mythra and she's the one who had the vision. So for all intents and purposes, everything the cast of XC2 did was of their own will but i think it would've been better to not have that vision at all.

And while this doesn't affect his quality as a character, Rex is just a chill dude and the most likable out of the Xeno protags imo.

Lora (Torna ~ The Golden Country)

Lora is just a solid protagonist. There's not a whole lot to say here because Torna ~ The Golden Country is the shortest Xeno game but she was good. Her relationship with Jin was done really well (and in general, Torna has a better cast than XC2) and i really like how they didn't make it obviously romantic. And it's not a realistic romance like Fei x Elly either because Lora and Jin's relationship absolutely can be platonic. Depending on how you want to look at it, they are either in a romantic relationship or they just love each other platoniclly.

Spoiler

Lora gets bonus points for being just "some girl". All Xeno protags have something special about them:

• Fei is the Contact, continuously reincarnated by the Zohar
• Shion is the reincarnation of Mary Magdalene's maiden and can also connect with U-DO (essentially God).
• KOS-MOS houses the soul of Mary Magdalene herself
• Shulk is the Heir to the Monado and had most of his journey pre-determined (more on that later)
• Rex is the Driver of the Aegis and also had most of his journey pre-determined
• Elma doesn't have any legendary powers or anything but she's still a high ranking member of B.L.A.D.E (and also an alien).

The only special thing about Lora is that she has Jin, the Paragon of Torna, who is considered the Kingdom's strongest Blade. But she awakened him by complete accident. It wasn't passed down to her and for 17 years, Jin had to wear a mask or they could risk getting accused of theft. 

The really cool thing about Lora is that she and Jin invented the Driver-Blade fighting style used in the main game. It was a really good attention to detail on Monolith Soft's part by making Torna's battle system different than XC2's battle system because XC2's battle system was still in it's prototype stages during Torna thanks to Lora.

Shulk (Xenoblade Chronicles)

Some might see it as controversial that i'm putting Shulk before Rex and even Lora. I like Shulk. He's definitely got a lot of things going on for him. The main issue with Shulk and the reason why it brings down his character for me a bit is

Spoiler

Zanza and pre-determined fate. Shulk spends 80% of the game basically preaching about changing the future and then Zanza shows up in Mechonis Core and is like "yeah, all of that was pre-determined, fuck you".

That said, Shulk has pretty solid motivations: revenge. He wants the Mechon to pay for what they did but over time, he starts to let go of that hatred (even if the whole forgiving Mumkar thing was bad). Shulk has some really good moments and his relationship with Fiora was good. Shulk's friendship with Reyn is also one of the best parts of the game, seeing the Heart to Heart conversations between the two is always a blast. In general, Shulk is a solid protagonist, just less solid than Lora is due to the main reason i stated in that spoiler. Oh, but he does have the best voice acting out of all the protaganists. Adam Howden is a God, only rivaled by Malos' voice actor, David Menkin

Elma (Xenoblade Chronicles X)

Elma is in a strange case. Xenoblade Chronicles X is the only game in the series that intentionally puts it's main story in the back seat, instead choosing to focus on the gameplay, world and sidequests (Xenoblade X's sidequests are tied with Torna ~ The Golden Country's. Both are incredibly good). This is both a good thing and a bad thing. She gets a lot of development in sidequests but in terms of the main story, she doesn't just have as much as an impact as the characters above. She's still decently written but she is nothing too special. But as you noticed, she isn't last on this list.

KOS-MOS (Xenosaga Trilogy)

The other main protagonist of Xenosaga is also the queen of crossovers (at least for Namco). Heck, she and T-elos are in Xenoblade 2 (though they aren't the same as their Xenosaga counterparts.....on that note, i'd argue XC2 T-elos>Xenosaga T-elos). But why is KOS-MOS at the bottom of my list? Is she a bad character? No. None of the Xeno protags are bad. The problem with KOS-MOS is that she needs Shion. She's a mostly emotionless android. If KOS-MOS was the sole protagonist of Xenosaga, then my experience with that trilogy might have been very different. She simply can't function as a single protagonist whereas Shion can.

Conclusion

As you can see just by looking at the protagonists, the protagonists of the Xenoblade games (and KOS-MOS) don't have the complexities that Fei and Shion do. I don't see that as the writing getting worse, i see it as Monolith Soft taking a different approach, as well as Fei and Xenogears setting the bar really high. I still trust Monolith Soft to have great writing and they have a great track record with their protagonists.

On a bonus note, i find it interesting that the male protagonists tend to be younger than the female ones. Fei and Shulk are 18 and Rex is 15. Shion is 22 (23 in Episode III), Lora is 27 and Elma is 29. KOS-MOS is two years old (three in Episode III) but being a robot, age does not apply to her.

I'll talk about what i think of the (important) villains and the stories of each game another time. If i included all of that along with this post, it'd be incredibly long and we'd be here all day.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Armagon

[Slumber]

There are a few reasons the Fei/Elly romance feels a lot more "organic" than the other romances in Xeno and a lot romances in general is that a lot of emphasis is put on their relationship pre-romance.

In their very first meeting, you don't even get the impression that they're ever going to be love interests. And it's not because Elly holds Fei at gunpoint and makes him help her out of the forest, and Fei is so broken at this point that he's basically egging her into shooting him... which is a pretty interesting first impression they're making on each other. There's something about the demeanor and way they speak to each other during this first meeting that just doesn't give the impression that they'll fall in love. A lot of romance stories show their hand pretty early, and you can usually tell if two characters are going to hook up at some point in their first interaction. Take Final Fantasy 8, for example(As another Square JRPG that focuses on a love subplot that came out around the same time). I actually like the Rinoa/Squall relationship, from Squall's perspective at least, but they lean into the idea that those two will hook up from the moment Rinoa looks at Squall. Or if you want to look at Fiora and Shulk, they're childhood friends and do a poor job of hiding that they're crushing on each other(And once Fiora comes back into the story, you pretty much know how that'll play out).

With Fei and Elly, you don't really have any idea of how their relationship will go until Fei helps Elly kick her psychotic mind-altering PED problem, which is a good ways into the game, and I think the third time Elly and Fei even meet up with each other.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Slumber

[henrymidfields]

Has anyone played Final Fantasy 12? I only vaguely knew about them before, but I've recently heard that the story in that game focuses more on politics and diplomacy than in the other FF entries, which is starting to intrigue me - this is, after all, how I started playing FE in general and FE6 in particular.