Armagon Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) Ok so my Xeno villain ranking post is taking a while so i'll fill this post with something else instead. @Slumber to follow up what you said regarding Fei and Elly, even after their third meeting (which is when you said the hints start to show), their relationship is still mostly platonic for the majority of Disc 1. Like yeah, they flirt around a bit when they're stranded in the ocean but that's because there really wasn't anything else for them to do, it was literally just the two of them. If i remember correctly, Fei and Elly don't start to enter a proper romantic relationship until they reach Solaris, which is the final area of Disc 1. Spoiler Expectations are subverted even further when Elly permanently leaves the party right before they head to Mahanon and that's like halfway through Disc 2, i think, so she leaves before they even get close to the end of the game. The main love interest permanently leaving the party for reasons that don't involve being killed off is very rare to my knowledge. Edited November 24, 2018 by Armagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, henrymidfields said: Has anyone played Final Fantasy 12? I only vaguely knew about them before, but I've recently heard that the story in that game focuses more on politics and diplomacy than in the other FF entries, which is starting to intrigue me - this is, after all, how I started playing FE in general and FE6 in particular. FF12 is good. The HD version/Zodiac Age Remaster is great. Fixes a ton of the gameplay issues and the blandness of the License Board, so you can have a fun gameplay experience on top of being able to get into the politics of the world. And it does indeed focus more on politics. The "main" 3 characters are all pretty deeply embedded in the political world. Don't let Vaan turn you off. He's not that bad, and he really only exists to give you a fresh perspective on the world for the first 10ish hours. After that, he falls out of focus hard, and he doesn't really impact the story much at all. Edited November 24, 2018 by Slumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 On 11/24/2018 at 3:41 AM, henrymidfields said: Has anyone played Final Fantasy 12? I only vaguely knew about them before, but I've recently heard that the story in that game focuses more on politics and diplomacy than in the other FF entries, which is starting to intrigue me - this is, after all, how I started playing FE in general and FE6 in particular. Somewhat. But my computer hates it, so I can't play for very long. It's. . .interesting, to say the least. The opening won't make much sense initially, but it's important to pay attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard333 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) For my birthday (November 13), I got Valkyria Chronicles 4. I have never played any of the first three games, as I had never even heard of the series until this year's E3. I have gotten to chapter 4. It’s a strategy RPG, so I think it counts as a JRPG (if it doesn’t, please let me know), and I didn’t see a topic specifically for this game, so here are my thoughts on the game so far: (I'll try to avoid spoilers) Worldbuilding: & Visuals: The game's fictional setting is really interesting. On the one hand, it couldn't be a more thinly-veiled expy of Europe in WW2 even if there were planes in the game (by the way; they hav engines in this game. Why are there no planes or even airships?) But on the other hand, it is very well thought-out and they have been creative in various places. The graphics are really something; I like the resemblance to water-colour and the overall choice of more stylistic graphics, since it means that the graphics will age better in the long run. Plus, it really fits the atmosphere of the game. Also, I personally really love that the game's version of the UK is called the United Kingdom of Edinburgh, and I love how the anti-tank guns look like cavalry lances (though only the Imperial ones; the Federation "lances" just look like big guns). One small thing though that almost broke immersion for me: why is no one wearing a helmet? Seriously? Only Kai and the Girl in the Iron Mask (I had to make that pun and I do not apologize for it) are wearing any sort of headgear, and Kai's is just a hat. There are good reasons that helmets came back into existence in WW1 and continue to be used to this day. All the enemies that aren't major villains are wearing helmets, and even the Valkyria (who I've only seen in the trailers) is at least wearing a hat, so why aren't any of the heroes? It's especially egregious when looking at the winter parts of the opening cinematic! Really? Nothing? It's going to be hard to understand the characters' emotions and expressions when their faces become frostbitten and necrotic. Gameplay: I should get one thing out of the way very quickly: I do not like shooter games. They're not my cup of tea, and I do not enjoy them. However, I absolutely love the gameplay in this game. The Battle of Live Tactical Zones, or BLiTZ (something tells me they really wanted the initials of the gameplay system to spell out BLITZ; see what I mean about thinly-veiled expy) combat system is a fantastic blend of turn-based strategy and real-time action. Even I, someone who almost never plays a game with guns in it, really enjoys it. I've long enjoyed how strategy RPGs tend to focus more on tactics and less on micromanaging (cough Age of Empires cough), and this is no exception. Each class has something to contribute; it really doesn't feel like there's one best class. Each one has reasons why you might want to use it, and your unit selection really does vary with the given map; I'm only on chapter 4, and already some missions have favoured a more varied team, while others favour high mobility, etc. Speaking of maps; the maps are really well-done and I like that there's a lot of variance in the objectives. If all of them were just, "reach this location as soon as possible" or "defeat all the enemies", the game would get boring and repetitive (cough Awakening cough), and, thankfully, the objectives really do vary. I'm not a fan of level-up mechanics. They're fine in Fire Emblem, for example, but, in my opinion, "fine" tends to be how they are at best, and they usually are actually detrimental (cough Xenoblade Chronicles 1 cough). Some of my favourite games in terms of gameplay have been games where there wasn't a level-up system: The Legend of Zelda and Megaman Battle Network being two big ones. Why am I bringing this up? I'm doing so because I think the level-up system in Valkyria Chronicles 4 strikes a fair compromise that puts it above a lot of level-up systems. For a start, your units don't gain experience points after defeating enemies; you get one lump sum of experience points after the battle, and you then spend them on levelling up at the base (so basically the Bonus Experience System in Path of Radiance & Radiant Dawn), there's no noticeable increase in stats in levelling up (instead, characters learn battle potentials and orders), nothing in the game has said, "requires level [insert number here] to equip; beware that you will likely discard this item in two levels", and levelling up doesn't apply to individual units, but to every unit in a particular class. Levelling up lancers levels up all the lancers, etc. This means that no one's any more or less useful purely due to levels (i.e. no one's over-or-under-leveled). I do like this system; I wouldn't call it necessarily good; but it fits the game; too many level-up systems in video games feel tacked-on and don't seem to fit the goals of the game. (For instance; I've mentioned how I feel that the level-up system in Xenoblade Chronicles 1 conflicts with exploration). The item mechanic is interesting. The idea that standard-issue weapons are in essentially infinite supply while bonuses and weapons taken from enemies are in limited supply is a good idea. I just wish that the first round of taken enemy weapons you get in the game didn't have laughably pathetic range. I feel it seriously outweighs the damage increase. Story & Characters: I'm really enjoying the story. I'm finding myself increasingly enjoying the concept of fantasy war stories, and, so far, this game is definitely a good example of one. The characters are very interesting; their dynamics and backstories are interesting, and I do like the dialogue (for the most part...). I even like the Minerva character; she starts off a bit prickly, but it's immediately clear that there's more to her character than that. I do have one issue though: Raz is an utter pig. At least he got some comeuppance for it, courtesy of Kai, but he doesn't seem to learn. Now; I know characters don't always have to learn and grow, but seeing as how the game already seems to be hinting that the main, shall we say dynamics, will be Claude & Riley and Raz & Kai, Raz is going to have to go through some serious character development beforehand, or I just won't buy it. Reyn and Sharla made sense (despite Gadolt only being recently presumed dead at that point in the game); these two don't; not yet, and I seriously hope the game makes sure that they make sense beforehand. On the plus side, though, at least there aren't any love triangles; that's a huge relief after playing both Xenoblade Chronicles 1 and The Witcher 3 back-to-back. Speaking of which; Claude Wallace is probably my favourite character so far; one reason being that, unlike a certain Heir to the Monado, he isn't written as someone that every girl except one inexplicably wants and every guy inexplicably wants to be. He does have the respect of his soldiers at the start of the game, but, as we find out from his backstory, he seriously had to earn that respect. Overall, I'm really enjoying this game so far. Of the three games that I've mentioned having played recently, I think, almost surprisingly, that it's the one that I've been enjoying the most. I just wish I had more time to play it; university has seriously been eating away my free time. Edited November 28, 2018 by vanguard333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Ok so now i'm gonna rank the villains of the Xeno series. Like my protagonist ranking in the last page, i'm gonna be going from best to worst. However, because there's a shit ton of villains in the series, this post will have three sections: the best villains in the series, the worst villains in the series and the ones in between. I won't be talking about the ones in between, i'll just rank them. The best villains in the series Malos (Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Torna ~ The Golden Country) Malos is an interesting fellow. On the surface, he appears as a force of nature villain. Wanting to destroy humanity because why the fuck not. He even says it's "an easy cure for the tedium of being". But underneath that surface lies something deeper. He's essentially a philosophical asshole. Spoiler Malos presents the question of free will. His deep hatred for the world and wanting to end it did not originate with him. Being an Aegis, he was awakened by Amalthus, who i'll be talking about later. All of Amalthus' desires influence Malos' mind when he awoke and this caused Malos to believe that this is who he is. But the man had 500 years between Torna and Xenoblade 2 to reflect and at the end of the day, he decided that this was his role in the world. Amalthus believed that humans wanted to die; that's why they kept fighting each other. After his defeat in Torna, Malos wandered the world for 500 years and although he believed the same thing as a Amalthus due to his influence, he began to willingly believe the same thing. "They [humans] haven't changed a bit in 500 years. No wonder Father [The Architect] abandoned them". By the time Xenoblade 2 rolls around, Malos isn't doing what he does because he was influenced by Amalthus. He's doing it because he saw the state of the world and genuinely believed it was his role to purge it. Seeing humanity fight itself all the time, he comes up with the anwser that "deep down, humans wish they were dead. Killing each other like they swat flies, running towards oblivion like blind rats. They take the flame of life and piss over it.". In simpler terms, Amalthus is the programmer and Malos is the A.I and eventually, that A.I decided to do what it wanted, regardless of Amalthus' intentions. Malos is also similar in some ways to Id, who i'll also go over with later. Both want to destroy the world but it makes the player ask "is this what they really want". And besides that, Malos just has a really good voice. David Menkin is up there with Adam Howden as the Gods of Xenoblade voice acting. Heck, i'd even say David Menkin is better than Adam Howden. Albedo Piazzolla (Xenosaga Episodes I and II) In some ways, Albedo is the same as Malos. But one thing is certain: he is the most insane and fucked up villain in the series. In terms of mental complexities, Albedo is above Malos in that regard. He's evil, often for the sake of it, but like Malos, he's also a philosophical asshole (except he's less of an asshole and just insane). Albedo is immortal but it's immortality that is presented in an interesting way. Usually, when someone is immortal (or live close to an eternity), it's presented in one of three ways: "Oh yeah, i live forever" or "what difference does it make" with the last one being "i'll outlive all my friends" and it usually presented with a more somber tone. Albedo kinda takes that last one but twists it. Spoiler When Albedo first finds out he's immortal, he thinks it's the same for his brothers, who are Nigredo (also known as Gaignun Kukai) and Rubedo (also known as Gaignun Kukai Jr. or simply Jr.). So he blows his head off in front of them (this scene is censored in the localized versions by replacing his gun with an energy ball). But then he finds out that he's the only one who's immortal and develops the fear that one day, his brothers will die while he lives on. And then came the day of the Miltian Conflict, which happened 14 years before the events of Episode I. Albedo, who was already kind of not mentally stable, links with U-DO and this amplified his unstable mental state, turning him into the insane madman he is in the games. He begins to believe the terror management theory, which basically states that the only reason humans create cultures, religions and civilizations and such is to distract them from the inevitability of death. But deep down, Albedo biggest desire is the desire to die. He doesn't want to be immortal. But he can't die and in a way, his wish for death never comes true. While he dies at the end of Episode II, Wilhelm turns him into White Testament. And unfortunately, he gets absolutely shafted in Episode III. His only meaningful act in Episode III is stopping Dimitri Yuriev, his father. Even then, he doesn't die, but simply becomes one with Rubedo, which actually was his other greatest wish. On a side note, despite being immortal, he did age. It could be because he's a U.R.T.V, genetically enhanced humans born to combat U-DO, but it's never really explained why an immortal person grew up. Jin (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) My appreciation for Jin increased after playing Torna ~ The Golden Country, a game in which he's playable. Jin is a man who is both logical and illogical. One one hand, he provided valid points for his motive but on the other, he is subject to overwhelming emotion. In Torna ~ The Golden Country, he is shown as a gentle man who would rather not fight but wouldn't hold back on people he deems threats. In Xenoblade Chronicles 2, he is broken and weighed down by the events of 500 years ago. Spoiler After the Aegis War, the Torna Titan sank beneath the Cloud Sea and the survivors found refuge on the Titan of Spessia. But it wasn't for long because Amalthus raided the place and killed them all. Jin's Driver Lora was also killed and this would've normally meant that Jin would return to his Core. However, he took an agonizing alternative. Before he could return to his Core, he, following her wish, consumed Lora's heart, becoming a Flesh Eater. However, this effectively meant that he was now immortal. He thought that, with Malos' (presumed defeat), the world would become a better. But like Malos, he spent 500 years wandering Alrest and didn't see the world change one bit. Everything was just as it was, no, it was even worse from his point of view. Not only were humans still fighting each other but now the Indoline Prateorium, lead by Praetor Amalthus, had effectively enslaved the Blade population. Under Amalthus' rule, Indol required that all Drivers and Blades be registered with them, otherwise, they would be considered illegal. Amalthus himself cleansed the Core Crystals, which did increase their resonance rate but deleted all the accumulated data, preventing the Blades from ever evolving into Titans, which would eventually mean less land to live on. But the worst part of it was that Haze, Lora's other Blade and close friend, was now bonded to Amalthus. Haze, who once said she couldn't bear to serve someone like Amalthus, now followed his command without question, never knowing that he was the one responsible for her previous Driver's death. This is the reason why Jin now despises the world, because people treat Blades like mere tools when Blades make up the foundation of Alrest. Jin's emotional side also comes into play. One might question why he would side with Malos but as i've stated before, both of them lived for 500 years and reached the same conclusion. But unlike Malos, Jin was a broken man before he met him. Upon realizing that they saw the same thing in humanity, they joined forces. But despite joining the enemy, i do like how Jin still maintains that sort of gentle side to him. He treats every member of the Torna organization like family, even Malos and he was against Malos, Mikhail, Ahkos and Patroka resonating with Sever, Cressidus, Obrona and Perdido because he was against the current Driver-Blade system. Egil (Xenoblade Chronicles) Egil is a great example of good intentions with horrible methods. Egil is a Machina, mechanic beings born of Mechonis. Aaaaand, the rest has to go in spoilers Spoiler His people were nearly wiped out after Zanza sent the Telethia to lay waste on Mechonis and to keep him from ressurecting, Egil found out that if you kill the people of Bionis without letting them return to the Titan's ether stream, it would stop Zanza's resurrection or weaken him. He didn't hate the people of Bionis but he thought that they had to be sacrificed for the sake of the world. That's one of the reasons why i like him, because he recognized the gravity of his actions. He doesn't want to commit genocide but he sees it as a necessity. Also, i'm retroactively adding this to when i talked about Shulk but i really do like that the two had a mutual respect at the end of their final fight. Egil never hated Shulk and while Shulk originally hated Egil, he stopped and had no intention of killing him but instead, was willing to stop him again and again until he finally understood. Id (Xenogears) Id is basically prototype Malos. He still presents some questions of free will but he's mostly just there to destroy and he's really good at that. Spoiler I've mentioned it before but Id is another personality of Fei. It's his violent side manifesting after the intense trauma he recieved at the hands of his Miang-possessed mother). Everything Id does is because that's literally who he is. He's the incredibly violent, evil side of Fei who enjoys fighting the strong. Of course, being the result of trauma, it makes you ask if what Id is doing is really what he truly wants. There's also some philosophical symbolism here. To quote the Xenosaga Wiki Quote Id is a form of the subconscious mind according to psychologist Sigmund Freud, is Fei's destructive side. This coincides with Freud’s principle of the “Id” versus the “Super-ego” (see “Id, ego and super-ego”). The Id is the “instinct” side of the subconscious: it craves self-gratification. The Super-ego, in turn, is the logical and less instinctual side. Moreover, the Ego is the side that decides the balance between the Id and the Super-ego. In this case, Fei is the Super-ego [while Id is the "id"]. I don't really have a whole lot to say about Id but his connections with spoiler is what makes him great. Wilhelm (mainly Xenosaga Episode III but is also the true main villain of the whole trilogy) Ok so i'm just gonna copy what i said in my XS3 review to save time. Spoiler Quote You see him with the Testaments multiple times so you kinda figure he's a villain but then it's revealed that he's essentially Darth Sidious in how he manipulated every side of the conflict. And his goal wasn't evil at all. He was trying to stop the destruction of the universe by resetting it to the beginning of time over and over again But it's not just every side of the conflict. While it's never talked about in the games, Wilhelm has control of everything in the universe. Yes, everything. He is in control of all the major organizations (both secret and public), governments and religions in the galaxy and has infiltrated many of humanity's positions of power, and he is the most powerful figure in the universe and has existed since it began. The thing that makes me like Wilhelm is that despite having all this power, he's not evil. It's shown that he does enjoy seeing humans suffer to a degree but everything he does is to keep the universe from being destroyed. Even Shion agreed with his logic even if she didn't agree with his methods. I just wish that you could actually fight Wilhelm. On a side note, given his near omnipotent status and immortality, i just wanna point out that in the Xenosaga universe, he was most likely Roman Emperor Tiberius, which meant he had Pontius Pilate as a subordinate, which means he may or may not have had a role in the crucificixon of Jesus Christ. He probably did, because the Apostles were unknowlingly activating Anima, which could've been one potential cause of destruction for the universe. The ones in between Characters highlighted in blue are villains that i think are good, the ones that aren't highlighted are just alright. Krelian (Xenogears) Amalthus (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) Metal Face (Xenoblade Chronicles) Margulis (Xenosaga Trilogy) Mikhail (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) Grahf (Xenogears) Miang Hawwa (Xenogears) Kahran Ramsus (Xenogears) Spoiler Dickson (Xenoblade Chronicles) T-elos (Xenosaga Episode III) Blue Testament (Xenosaga Episode III) Pellegri (Xenosaga Trilogy) Dimitri Yuriev (Xenosaga Episode III) Ahkos (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) The worst villains in the series Sergius XVII (Xenosaga Episode II) As far as terrible villains go, Sergius isn't that bad. He's just every generic JRPG evil religious man. If he were the sole main villain of Episode II, then it would've been a bigger problem but as it is, he just gets massively overshadowed by Albedo. Luxaar (Xenoblade Chronicles X) Like Sergius, as far as terrible villains go, Luxaar isn't that bad. He's just every alien overlord that wants to eradicate humanity. Patroka (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) Patroka is just an annoying bitch and is the worst member of the Torna Organization. Spoiler It also doesn't help that the game tries to make us sympathize with her by shoving her backstory into us right as she dies. They do the same with Ahkos but at least Ahkos was entertaining. Xenoblade X spoiler Spoiler Lao Huang (Xenoblade Chronicles X) When it's revealed that Lao was working for the enemy, the reasons he gave were really dumb. He hates B.L.A.D.E and NLA because his family was not chosen to board the White Whale and escape Earth. While that in of itself is a valid reason for hatred, i don't understand why he would side with the alien forces responsible for Earth's destruction in the first place. Lao, what the fuck were you doing? Then he was like "yeah my bad, i shouldn't have been a Ganglion spy." Like what?????? At least he has a badass quote when fighting Luxaar: "Because of you, there's only 20 million of us left... That leaves 9.98 billion reasons for me to want you dead." Red Testament (Xenosaga Episode III) Just gonna copy what i said in my XS3 review Spoiler Quote Red Testament, a.k.a Kevin Winniecot a.k.a Shion's boyfriend was pretty bad. His motivations near the end of the game confused me. Oh he was just using Shion. Oh, now he actually cares about her. Shion, while i forgive most of her dumb decisions, acted really out of character. There is an actual boss fight in which you have to fight both Shion and Kevin. Kevin clearly attacks her friends and Shion just stands there until both Allen and KOS-MOS talk some really good sense into her. And then, while Wilhelm is torturing Shion, Kevin pulls a Darth Vader and saves her. Like, what? Kevin was just dumb. Black Testament (Xenosaga Episode III) Black Testament is an example of a force of nature villain done wrong. He's evil, he enjoys killing but that's it. Like, Metal Face in Xenoblade Chronicles is also that but he's incredibly entertaining. Black Testament, on the other hand, is just the generically evil villain. Part of his problem is that he's tied to Xenosaga: Pied Piper, which is a stand-alone spin-off game that takes place 100 years before Xenosaga Episode I. You don't have to play it (you actually can't anyway, it's a mobile game released exclusively for the now-defunct Vodafone phones in Japan) and it's story is summarized in Episode III anyway but even counting that, Black Testament is just too generic for my tastes. Lorithia (Xenoblade Chronicles) Lorithia is like, a less annoying version of Patroka but with an incredibly annoying boss fight. Gort (Torna ~ The Golden Country) Gort is just a poor man's Metal Face and if i'm being quite honest, you could cut him out of the game and nothing of value would be lost. Zanza (Xenoblade Chronicles) I thought about this a lot and honestly, this is what i believe in. There are definitely villains that could be seen as worse than Zanza but none of them are as big of a blemish on a game as Zanza. Spoiler Zanza's role in the game brings down both the story and the character of Shulk. As i said when i talked about Shulk, one of the game's central themes is changing fate. But then Zanza shows up and is like "yeah, that was all planned, fuck you". You can't preach about changing fate and then say it doesn't matter. So really, the whole changing fate theme only actually matters in the remaining 20% of the game. All the other times Shulk saw the future, it was because Zanza had already pre-determined it. Conclusion Wow, this took forever. I left out some villains like Shakan from Xenogears because those just had so little impact for me that i honestly just don't care. After this, i'll rank the stories themselves but i think i'll just rank the Xeno games overall because i wanna talk about the gameplay too. 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Jotari Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 17 hours ago, Armagon said: Ok so now i'm gonna rank the villains of the Xeno series. Like my protagonist ranking in the last page, i'm gonna be going from best to worst. However, because there's a shit ton of villains in the series, this post will have three sections: the best villains in the series, the worst villains in the series and the ones in between. I won't be talking about the ones in between, i'll just rank them. The best villains in the series Malos (Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Torna ~ The Golden Country) Malos is an interesting fellow. On the surface, he appears as a force of nature villain. Wanting to destroy humanity because why the fuck not. He even says it's "an easy cure for the tedium of being". But underneath that surface lies something deeper. He's essentially a philosophical asshole. Hide contents Malos presents the question of free will. His deep hatred for the world and wanting to end it did not originate with him. Being an Aegis, he was awakened by Amalthus, who i'll be talking about later. All of Amalthus' desires influence Malos' mind when he awoke and this caused Malos to believe that this is who he is. But the man had 500 years between Torna and Xenoblade 2 to reflect and at the end of the day, he decided that this was his role in the world. Amalthus believed that humans wanted to die; that's why they kept fighting each other. After his defeat in Torna, Malos wandered the world for 500 years and although he believed the same thing as a Amalthus due to his influence, he began to willingly believe the same thing. "They [humans] haven't changed a bit in 500 years. No wonder Father [The Architect] abandoned them". By the time Xenoblade 2 rolls around, Malos isn't doing what he does because he was influenced by Amalthus. He's doing it because he saw the state of the world and genuinely believed it was his role to purge it. Seeing humanity fight itself all the time, he comes up with the anwser that "deep down, humans wish they were dead. Killing each other like they swat flies, running towards oblivion like blind rats. They take the flame of life and piss over it.". In simpler terms, Amalthus is the programmer and Malos is the A.I and eventually, that A.I decided to do what it wanted, regardless of Amalthus' intentions. Malos is also similar in some ways to Id, who i'll also go over with later. Both want to destroy the world but it makes the player ask "is this what they really want". And besides that, Malos just has a really good voice. David Menkin is up there with Adam Howden as the Gods of Xenoblade voice acting. Heck, i'd even say David Menkin is better than Adam Howden. Albedo Piazzolla (Xenosaga Episodes I and II) In some ways, Albedo is the same as Malos. But one thing is certain: he is the most insane and fucked up villain in the series. In terms of mental complexities, Albedo is above Malos in that regard. He's evil, often for the sake of it, but like Malos, he's also a philosophical asshole (except he's less of an asshole and just insane). Albedo is immortal but it's immortality that is presented in an interesting way. Usually, when someone is immortal (or live close to an eternity), it's presented in one of three ways: "Oh yeah, i live forever" or "what difference does it make" with the last one being "i'll outlive all my friends" and it usually presented with a more somber tone. Albedo kinda takes that last one but twists it. Reveal hidden contents When Albedo first finds out he's immortal, he thinks it's the same for his brothers, who are Nigredo (also known as Gaignun Kukai) and Rubedo (also known as Gaignun Kukai Jr. or simply Jr.). So he blows his head off in front of them (this scene is censored in the localized versions by replacing his gun with an energy ball). But then he finds out that he's the only one who's immortal and develops the fear that one day, his brothers will die while he lives on. And then came the day of the Miltian Conflict, which happened 14 years before the events of Episode I. Albedo, who was already kind of not mentally stable, links with U-DO and this amplified his unstable mental state, turning him into the insane madman he is in the games. He begins to believe the terror management theory, which basically states that the only reason humans create cultures, religions and civilizations and such is to distract them from the inevitability of death. But deep down, Albedo biggest desire is the desire to die. He doesn't want to be immortal. But he can't die and in a way, his wish for death never comes true. While he dies at the end of Episode II, Wilhelm turns him into White Testament. And unfortunately, he gets absolutely shafted in Episode III. His only meaningful act in Episode III is stopping Dimitri Yuriev, his father. Even then, he doesn't die, but simply becomes one with Rubedo, which actually was his other greatest wish. On a side note, despite being immortal, he did age. It could be because he's a U.R.T.V, genetically enhanced humans born to combat U-DO, but it's never really explained why an immortal person grew up. Jin (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) My appreciation for Jin increased after playing Torna ~ The Golden Country, a game in which he's playable. Jin is a man who is both logical and illogical. One one hand, he provided valid points for his motive but on the other, he is subject to overwhelming emotion. In Torna ~ The Golden Country, he is shown as a gentle man who would rather not fight but wouldn't hold back on people he deems threats. In Xenoblade Chronicles 2, he is broken and weighed down by the events of 500 years ago. Reveal hidden contents After the Aegis War, the Torna Titan sank beneath the Cloud Sea and the survivors found refuge on the Titan of Spessia. But it wasn't for long because Amalthus raided the place and killed them all. Jin's Driver Lora was also killed and this would've normally meant that Jin would return to his Core. However, he took an agonizing alternative. Before he could return to his Core, he, following her wish, consumed Lora's heart, becoming a Flesh Eater. However, this effectively meant that he was now immortal. He thought that, with Malos' (presumed defeat), the world would become a better. But like Malos, he spent 500 years wandering Alrest and didn't see the world change one bit. Everything was just as it was, no, it was even worse from his point of view. Not only were humans still fighting each other but now the Indoline Prateorium, lead by Praetor Amalthus, had effectively enslaved the Blade population. Under Amalthus' rule, Indol required that all Drivers and Blades be registered with them, otherwise, they would be considered illegal. Amalthus himself cleansed the Core Crystals, which did increase their resonance rate but deleted all the accumulated data, preventing the Blades from ever evolving into Titans, which would eventually mean less land to live on. But the worst part of it was that Haze, Lora's other Blade and close friend, was now bonded to Amalthus. Haze, who once said she couldn't bear to serve someone like Amalthus, now followed his command without question, never knowing that he was the one responsible for her previous Driver's death. This is the reason why Jin now despises the world, because people treat Blades like mere tools when Blades make up the foundation of Alrest. Jin's emotional side also comes into play. One might question why he would side with Malos but as i've stated before, both of them lived for 500 years and reached the same conclusion. But unlike Malos, Jin was a broken man before he met him. Upon realizing that they saw the same thing in humanity, they joined forces. But despite joining the enemy, i do like how Jin still maintains that sort of gentle side to him. He treats every member of the Torna organization like family, even Malos and he was against Malos, Mikhail, Ahkos and Patroka resonating with Sever, Cressidus, Obrona and Perdido because he was against the current Driver-Blade system. Egil (Xenoblade Chronicles) Egil is a great example of good intentions with horrible methods. Egil is a Machina, mechanic beings born of Mechonis. Aaaaand, the rest has to go in spoilers Hide contents His people were nearly wiped out after Zanza sent the Telethia to lay waste on Mechonis and to keep him from ressurecting, Egil found out that if you kill the people of Bionis without letting them return to the Titan's ether stream, it would stop Zanza's resurrection or weaken him. He didn't hate the people of Bionis but he thought that they had to be sacrificed for the sake of the world. That's one of the reasons why i like him, because he recognized the gravity of his actions. He doesn't want to commit genocide but he sees it as a necessity. Also, i'm retroactively adding this to when i talked about Shulk but i really do like that the two had a mutual respect at the end of their final fight. Egil never hated Shulk and while Shulk originally hated Egil, he stopped and had no intention of killing him but instead, was willing to stop him again and again until he finally understood. Id (Xenogears) Id is basically prototype Malos. He still presents some questions of free will but he's mostly just there to destroy and he's really good at that. Reveal hidden contents I've mentioned it before but Id is another personality of Fei. It's his violent side manifesting after the intense trauma he recieved at the hands of his Miang-possessed mother). Everything Id does is because that's literally who he is. He's the incredibly violent, evil side of Fei who enjoys fighting the strong. Of course, being the result of trauma, it makes you ask if what Id is doing is really what he truly wants. There's also some philosophical symbolism here. To quote the Xenosaga Wiki I don't really have a whole lot to say about Id but his connections with spoiler is what makes him great. Wilhelm (mainly Xenosaga Episode III but is also the true main villain of the whole trilogy) Ok so i'm just gonna copy what i said in my XS3 review to save time. Reveal hidden contents But it's not just every side of the conflict. While it's never talked about in the games, Wilhelm has control of everything in the universe. Yes, everything. He is in control of all the major organizations (both secret and public), governments and religions in the galaxy and has infiltrated many of humanity's positions of power, and he is the most powerful figure in the universe and has existed since it began. The thing that makes me like Wilhelm is that despite having all this power, he's not evil. It's shown that he does enjoy seeing humans suffer to a degree but everything he does is to keep the universe from being destroyed. Even Shion agreed with his logic even if she didn't agree with his methods. I just wish that you could actually fight Wilhelm. On a side note, given his near omnipotent status and immortality, i just wanna point out that in the Xenosaga universe, he was most likely Roman Emperor Tiberius, which meant he had Pontius Pilate as a subordinate, which means he may or may not have had a role in the crucificixon of Jesus Christ. He probably did, because the Apostles were unknowlingly activating Anima, which could've been one potential cause of destruction for the universe. The ones in between Characters highlighted in blue are villains that i think are good, the ones that aren't highlighted are just alright. Krelian (Xenogears) Amalthus (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) Metal Face (Xenoblade Chronicles) Margulis (Xenosaga Trilogy) Mikhail (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) Grahf (Xenogears) Miang Hawwa (Xenogears) Kahran Ramsus (Xenogears) Hide contents Dickson (Xenoblade Chronicles) T-elos (Xenosaga Episode III) Blue Testament (Xenosaga Episode III) Pellegri (Xenosaga Trilogy) Dimitri Yuriev (Xenosaga Episode III) Ahkos (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) The worst villains in the series Sergius XVII (Xenosaga Episode II) As far as terrible villains go, Sergius isn't that bad. He's just every generic JRPG evil religious man. If he were the sole main villain of Episode II, then it would've been a bigger problem but as it is, he just gets massively overshadowed by Albedo. Luxaar (Xenoblade Chronicles X) Like Sergius, as far as terrible villains go, Luxaar isn't that bad. He's just every alien overlord that wants to eradicate humanity. Patroka (Xenoblade Chronicles 2) Patroka is just an annoying bitch and is the worst member of the Torna Organization. Hide contents It also doesn't help that the game tries to make us sympathize with her by shoving her backstory into us right as she dies. They do the same with Ahkos but at least Ahkos was entertaining. Xenoblade X spoiler Hide contents Lao Huang (Xenoblade Chronicles X) When it's revealed that Lao was working for the enemy, the reasons he gave were really dumb. He hates B.L.A.D.E and NLA because his family was not chosen to board the White Whale and escape Earth. While that in of itself is a valid reason for hatred, i don't understand why he would side with the alien forces responsible for Earth's destruction in the first place. Lao, what the fuck were you doing? Then he was like "yeah my bad, i shouldn't have been a Ganglion spy." Like what?????? At least he has a badass quote when fighting Luxaar: "Because of you, there's only 20 million of us left... That leaves 9.98 billion reasons for me to want you dead." Red Testament (Xenosaga Episode III) Just gonna copy what i said in my XS3 review Reveal hidden contents Black Testament (Xenosaga Episode III) Black Testament is an example of a force of nature villain done wrong. He's evil, he enjoys killing but that's it. Like, Metal Face in Xenoblade Chronicles is also that but he's incredibly entertaining. Black Testament, on the other hand, is just the generically evil villain. Part of his problem is that he's tied to Xenosaga: Pied Piper, which is a stand-alone spin-off game that takes place 100 years before Xenosaga Episode I. You don't have to play it (you actually can't anyway, it's a mobile game released exclusively for the now-defunct Vodafone phones in Japan) and it's story is summarized in Episode III anyway but even counting that, Black Testament is just too generic for my tastes. Lorithia (Xenoblade Chronicles) Lorithia is like, a less annoying version of Patroka but with an incredibly annoying boss fight. Gort (Torna ~ The Golden Country) Gort is just a poor man's Metal Face and if i'm being quite honest, you could cut him out of the game and nothing of value would be lost. Zanza (Xenoblade Chronicles) I thought about this a lot and honestly, this is what i believe in. There are definitely villains that could be seen as worse than Zanza but none of them are as big of a blemish on a game as Zanza. Hide contents Zanza's role in the game brings down both the story and the character of Shulk. As i said when i talked about Shulk, one of the game's central themes is changing fate. But then Zanza shows up and is like "yeah, that was all planned, fuck you". You can't preach about changing fate and then say it doesn't matter. So really, the whole changing fate theme only actually matters in the remaining 20% of the game. All the other times Shulk saw the future, it was because Zanza had already pre-determined it. Conclusion Wow, this took forever. I left out some villains like Shakan from Xenogears because those just had so little impact for me that i honestly just don't care. After this, i'll rank the stories themselves but i think i'll just rank the Xeno games overall because i wanna talk about the gameplay too. Regarding Lao's motivations, he specifically wanted to destroy the life hold to kill the corrupt wealthy ass holes that bribed their way onto the white whale and condemned him and basically every other human to death (not everyone could be saved obviously, but people were led into believing there was a random chance of being saved when there really wasn't). He's also aware that they're no actual bodies in the life hold so believes everyone is already dead anyway, though that perspective is kind of under elaborated because they inexplicably wanted to keep that aspect of the plot and endgame twist (which means it goes completely unexplored). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Double posting because Serenes hates me I don't see how Zanza retroactively ruined the the theming of Xenoblade. He provided the means for Shulk to alter the future, then when he became the enemy he took that means away (and even used it against them) yet Shulk still changed the future anyway because he relied on the power of the self. If anything it's a challenge of the theme that comes out on top. It's not like Shulk was even lied to throughout the game. He was working in tandem with the Monado (is Zanza) to fight Egil. The Visions he was getting weren't deceptions, they were earnest depictions of how things would play out if he failed to act. TL:DR, the plot switches from using an outward tool to change date to using inner power to control one's destiny. Not a contradiction, but a deeper manifestation of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Jotari said: Spoiler Regarding Lao's motivations, he specifically wanted to destroy the life hold to kill the corrupt wealthy ass holes that bribed their way onto the white whale and condemned him and basically every other human to death (not everyone could be saved obviously, but people were led into believing there was a random chance of being saved when there really wasn't). Spoiler That in of itself is fine but i fail to understand why he would ever side with the Ganglion when they are the ones actually responsible for the destruction of Earth (well, the Ghosts are also involved but we hardly know anything about them. My theory is that they are Xenoblade's version of the Gnosis from Xenosaga). It would've been better if Lao was just like, working for himself as opposed to siding with the Ganglion only to be like "yeah my bad". 6 hours ago, Jotari said: Spoiler I don't see how Zanza retroactively ruined the the theming of Xenoblade. He provided the means for Shulk to alter the future, then when he became the enemy he took that means away (and even used it against them) yet Shulk still changed the future anyway because he relied on the power of the self. If anything it's a challenge of the theme that comes out on top. It's not like Shulk was even lied to throughout the game. He was working in tandem with the Monado (is Zanza) to fight Egil. The Visions he was getting weren't deceptions, they were earnest depictions of how things would play out if he failed to act. TL:DR, the plot switches from using an outward tool to change date to using inner power to control one's destiny. Not a contradiction, but a deeper manifestation of it. Spoiler Here's the problem: everything that happened up to Mechonis Core was meant to happen. Dickson's line of "It was all the will of Lord Zanza. He simply led you to the inevitable." very much sounds like the kind of thing you'd hear from those who believe in pre-determined fate. Colony 9, the deaths of the High Entia Emperor and Gadolt (the examples he gave) were all meant to happen and this whole pre-determined bullshit is what i don't like. I do like that Shulk and Zanza subvert the chosen one trope but everything that happened in Mechonis Core just rubs me the wrong way. Changing fate and destiny only actually mattered in the last 20% of the game when Shulk was tapping into his own Monado. Torna ~ The Golden Country also threw in pre-determined fate into the Xenoblade 2 storyline but subverted it by making it so that no one knew. Mythra was the one who had the vision but she was unaware that she did. Honestly, both Xenogears and Xenosaga handled changing fate much better than Xenoblade and changing fate wasn't as big of a theme in those games. And on a side note, Zanza was just super lame follow up to the greatness that is Egil. Edited November 29, 2018 by Armagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightchao42 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Armagon said: Reveal hidden contents Here's the problem: everything that happened up to Mechonis Core was meant to happen. Dickson's line of "It was all the will of Lord Zanza. He simply led you to the inevitable." very much sounds like the kind of thing you'd hear from those who believe in pre-determined fate. Colony 9, the deaths of the High Entia Emperor and Gadolt (the examples he gave) were all meant to happen and this whole pre-determined bullshit is what i don't like. I do like that Shulk and Zanza subvert the chosen one trope but everything that happened in Mechonis Core just rubs me the wrong way. Changing fate and destiny only actually mattered in the last 20% of the game when Shulk was tapping into his own Monado. Torna ~ The Golden Country also threw in pre-determined fate into the Xenoblade 2 storyline but subverted it by making it so that no one knew. Mythra was the one who had the vision but she was unaware that she did. Honestly, both Xenogears and Xenosaga handled changing fate much better than Xenoblade and changing fate wasn't as big of a theme in those games. And on a side note, Zanza was just super lame follow up to the greatness that is Egil. Spoiler The events Shulk/Zanza/Mythra see in visions aren't set in stone since they're only predictions of possible futures, so those visions aren't any more "pre-determined" than everything else that happens in the games. As Akhos would put it, it's kind of like reading ahead of a script in a play you're performing in, but you don't have to follow that script if you don't want to. Zanza's ego is bigger than the Bionis, so of course he and Dickson think everything is preordained according to his will. Unless the criticism you're looking for is "80% of the game was planned by Zanza," in which case Shulk still did mostly everything on his own, just with minor pushes from Dickson and Zanza in the direction they wanted him to go. And one can interpret Zanza's downfall and Shulk becoming a god as being planned out by Alvis all along, though in this case he was giving Shulk the power he needed in addition to pushing Shulk in the proper direction. Mythra, lastly, had a vision of Rex becoming her Driver because it ended up happening, not because it was arranged by some greater power (aside from Tetsuya Takahashi). Mythra was in the middle of a mental breakdown and was drawing more power from the Conduit than usual, so she unknowingly used her power to show herself something she wanted to see. Edited November 29, 2018 by Lightchao42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Lightchao42 said: Reveal hidden contents The events Shulk/Zanza/Mythra see in visions aren't set in stone since they're only predictions of possible futures, so those visions aren't any more "pre-determined" than everything else that happens in the games. As Akhos would put it, it's kind of like reading ahead of a script in a play you're performing in, but you don't have to follow that script if you don't want to. Zanza's ego is bigger than the Bionis, so of course he and Dickson think everything is preordained according to his will. Unless the criticism you're looking for is "80% of the game was planned by Zanza," in which case Shulk still did mostly everything on his own, just with minor pushes from Dickson and Zanza in the direction they wanted him to go. And one can interpret Zanza's downfall and Shulk becoming a god as being planned out by Alvis all along, though in this case he was giving Shulk the power he needed in addition to pushing Shulk in the proper direction. Mythra, lastly, had a vision of Rex becoming her Driver because it ended up happening, not because it was arranged by some greater power (aside from Tetsuya Takahashi). Mythra was in the middle of a mental breakdown and was drawing more power from the Conduit than usual, so she unknowingly used her power to show herself something she wanted to see. Spoiler Visions in general are kinda tricky in fiction. They aren't as hard to do right like time-travel is but there are a lot of pitfalls. In Xenoblade (and even the one vision in Xenosaga), the way visions are presented make it seem like there's one path and you could diverge from that. I personally prefer the kind of visions where there's multiple paths (for example, Doctor Strange). It's also why i don't like prophecies. The thing with the events at Mechonis Core is that it sounds like even the visions that Shulk used to save people were meant to happen. I can buy it if it's like, a thing that happens periodically but Zanza's all like "it happened because it was meant to be". Yeah, his ego is definitely gigantic and is definitely cause for him being singleminded in his goals and putting too much belief in the passage of fate but it's not like he's lying. And i just remembered another thing. In the beginning of the game, Shulk has a vision that goes all the way up to the confrontation with Egil in Agniritha. That was before Colony 9 was even attacked which means that the journey up to at least Agniritha was going to happen anyway. All of the other visions were just guiding the group along. Which ties back to what Dickson said. "It was all the will of Lord Zanza. He simply led you to the inevitable." At least that the way i see it. I'll admit that you and Jotari do have interesting interpretations on Zanza's role. Which on a more general note, is why one of the many reasons why i do like the Xeno series. There's a lot of way to interpret things. I don't think it was planned by Alvis, i feel like Alvis was more interested in seeing which of the two wills, Shulk and Zanza, would come out on top. It explains why he's both of their allies and why he's the only one of the Trinity who doesn't really seem to care what Zanza wants. I do kinda agree on the Mythra part. I'm not too upset by Mythra's vision because again, even she wasn't aware that she had it. At the very least though, i do think Zanza retroactively makes Shulk worse. I wouldn't exactly say Shulk gets perfect boy syndrome because he doesn't (especially mentally) but a lot of things seem to be.....really convenient for him, all because Zanza was inside him. Shulk just knows how to use the Monado during the Colony 9 attack despite never using it before (i'm talking physically, he didn't understand the visions back then). Whenever Monado Shield and Speed unlocked, Shulk knew how to use them despite, once again, never using them before. Or maybe he didn't and he just YOLO'd it which means that the fact it worked perfectly in the given situation was mighty convenient. Shulk gets visions pretty much exactly when he needs them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 8 hours ago, Armagon said: Hide contents That in of itself is fine but i fail to understand why he would ever side with the Ganglion when they are the ones actually responsible for the destruction of Earth (well, the Ghosts are also involved but we hardly know anything about them. My theory is that they are Xenoblade's version of the Gnosis from Xenosaga). It would've been better if Lao was just like, working for himself as opposed to siding with the Ganglion only to be like "yeah my bad". Nihilism. The fact that it makes no sense is why he ultimately decides to turn on them the moment Lin gives him even a modicum of optimism. 8 hours ago, Armagon said: Hide contents Here's the problem: everything that happened up to Mechonis Core was meant to happen. Dickson's line of "It was all the will of Lord Zanza. He simply led you to the inevitable." very much sounds like the kind of thing you'd hear from those who believe in pre-determined fate. Colony 9, the deaths of the High Entia Emperor and Gadolt (the examples he gave) were all meant to happen and this whole pre-determined bullshit is what i don't like. I do like that Shulk and Zanza subvert the chosen one trope but everything that happened in Mechonis Core just rubs me the wrong way. Changing fate and destiny only actually mattered in the last 20% of the game when Shulk was tapping into his own Monado. Torna ~ The Golden Country also threw in pre-determined fate into the Xenoblade 2 storyline but subverted it by making it so that no one knew. Mythra was the one who had the vision but she was unaware that she did. Honestly, both Xenogears and Xenosaga handled changing fate much better than Xenoblade and changing fate wasn't as big of a theme in those games. And on a side note, Zanza was just super lame follow up to the greatness that is Egil. Spoiler But that's the whole point. Predeterminism is bullshit. Zanza espouses it as a belief because he believes it works for him and literally can't conceive a reality where he's defeated by lowly homs, while Shulk rejects it and in so doing is able to defeat Zanza. What happens in the first 80% of the game isn't any more or less predetermined than the last 20%. Shulk was being guided by Zanza's will, but only by the will of Zanza the individual, not the will of the universe's god, because Zanza ultimately wasn't a god. He didn't have complete control over the destiny of the world like he believed. He had some control of shaping what happens in the world, just like everything in existence that thinks does, and he even had a larger degree of it than most because he's more powerful than others, but his control never was absolute. Shulk could have failed to defeat Egil had he made different choices. Zanza showed Shulk the correct choices to make in order to ensure victory, but Shulk still had the free will to ignore them or go down a different path. 5 hours ago, Lightchao42 said: Hide contents The events Shulk/Zanza/Mythra see in visions aren't set in stone since they're only predictions of possible futures, so those visions aren't any more "pre-determined" than everything else that happens in the games. As Akhos would put it, it's kind of like reading ahead of a script in a play you're performing in, but you don't have to follow that script if you don't want to. Zanza's ego is bigger than the Bionis, so of course he and Dickson think everything is preordained according to his will. Unless the criticism you're looking for is "80% of the game was planned by Zanza," in which case Shulk still did mostly everything on his own, just with minor pushes from Dickson and Zanza in the direction they wanted him to go. And one can interpret Zanza's downfall and Shulk becoming a god as being planned out by Alvis all along, though in this case he was giving Shulk the power he needed in addition to pushing Shulk in the proper direction. Mythra, lastly, had a vision of Rex becoming her Driver because it ended up happening, not because it was arranged by some greater power (aside from Tetsuya Takahashi). Mythra was in the middle of a mental breakdown and was drawing more power from the Conduit than usual, so she unknowingly used her power to show herself something she wanted to see. Spoiler Ah, I see someone beat me to the punch in my retort. I'll add though that Alvis didn't plan out anything for Shulk. He merely gave Shulk the opportunity to succeed. He didn't expect or even desire to see Shulk beat Zanza. Alvis' whole deal is that he's an overseer, not a manipulator. He specifically wanted to see what Shulk would consciously choose when given all the options and information, rather than influencing him to choose anything in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 3 hours ago, Armagon said: Hide contents Visions in general are kinda tricky in fiction. They aren't as hard to do right like time-travel is but there are a lot of pitfalls. In Xenoblade (and even the one vision in Xenosaga), the way visions are presented make it seem like there's one path and you could diverge from that. I personally prefer the kind of visions where there's multiple paths (for example, Doctor Strange). It's also why i don't like prophecies. The thing with the events at Mechonis Core is that it sounds like even the visions that Shulk used to save people were meant to happen. I can buy it if it's like, a thing that happens periodically but Zanza's all like "it happened because it was meant to be". Yeah, his ego is definitely gigantic and is definitely cause for him being singleminded in his goals and putting too much belief in the passage of fate but it's not like he's lying. And i just remembered another thing. In the beginning of the game, Shulk has a vision that goes all the way up to the confrontation with Egil in Agniritha. That was before Colony 9 was even attacked which means that the journey up to at least Agniritha was going to happen anyway. All of the other visions were just guiding the group along. Which ties back to what Dickson said. "It was all the will of Lord Zanza. He simply led you to the inevitable." At least that the way i see it. I'll admit that you and Jotari do have interesting interpretations on Zanza's role. Which on a more general note, is why one of the many reasons why i do like the Xeno series. There's a lot of way to interpret things. I don't think it was planned by Alvis, i feel like Alvis was more interested in seeing which of the two wills, Shulk and Zanza, would come out on top. It explains why he's both of their allies and why he's the only one of the Trinity who doesn't really seem to care what Zanza wants. I do kinda agree on the Mythra part. I'm not too upset by Mythra's vision because again, even she wasn't aware that she had it. At the very least though, i do think Zanza retroactively makes Shulk worse. I wouldn't exactly say Shulk gets perfect boy syndrome because he doesn't (especially mentally) but a lot of things seem to be.....really convenient for him, all because Zanza was inside him. Shulk just knows how to use the Monado during the Colony 9 attack despite never using it before (i'm talking physically, he didn't understand the visions back then). Whenever Monado Shield and Speed unlocked, Shulk knew how to use them despite, once again, never using them before. Or maybe he didn't and he just YOLO'd it which means that the fact it worked perfectly in the given situation was mighty convenient. Shulk gets visions pretty much exactly when he needs them. Shulk gets visions and knows how to use the monado because Zanza is giving him those powers. Zanza is manipulating Shulk to fulfill a goal. Shulk's actions are no more predetermined than say the rebel alliance in the Return of the Jedi when they're lured into a trap by the emperor and he cackles "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen." Shulk and Zanza aren't lying, they're just flat out wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 17 minutes ago, Jotari said: Spoiler Shulk gets visions and knows how to use the monado because Zanza is giving him those powers. Spoiler Yes, that's the issue. Zanza is essentially giving Shulk the power of convinience. Compare it to Rex. Rex gets the Aegis but that doesn't mean he knows how to use it. He gets his ass handed to him several times. He gets cocky. Even farther into the game, he still doesn't use the Aegis properly. It's not until Ch.7 where he finally unlocks the Aegis' true power after understanding what it was he was doing wrong. At no point does Shulk fail to use the Monado properly. Even when he's never used the damn thing in battle before, he's suddenly an expert. He unlocks a new Monado Art and he's suddenly an expert at it. 20 minutes ago, Jotari said: Spoiler Shulk's actions are no more predetermined than say the rebel alliance in the Return of the Jedi when they're lured into a trap by the emperor and he cackles "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen." Spoiler Different things, Palpatine was playing a game of 4D chess. Shulk's actions were bound to happen since before he even left Colony 9. Heck, it was meant to happen sinxe before he was even born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Armagon said: Hide contents Yes, that's the issue. Zanza is essentially giving Shulk the power of convinience. Compare it to Rex. Rex gets the Aegis but that doesn't mean he knows how to use it. He gets his ass handed to him several times. He gets cocky. Even farther into the game, he still doesn't use the Aegis properly. It's not until Ch.7 where he finally unlocks the Aegis' true power after understanding what it was he was doing wrong. At no point does Shulk fail to use the Monado properly. Even when he's never used the damn thing in battle before, he's suddenly an expert. He unlocks a new Monado Art and he's suddenly an expert at it. Well he does utterly fail to save Fiora or the Emperor and runs into trouble using it when the Egil uses the Apocrypha. But him being granted the power is also sort of the point. He's given this power for most of the game, but then it's taken away from him in the final act, putting the characters into their lowest point in the story, yet Shulk still manages to turn it around by using the power within himself instead of relying on Zanza. 1 hour ago, Armagon said: Hide contents Different things, Palpatine was playing a game of 4D chess. Shulk's actions were bound to happen since before he even left Colony 9. Heck, it was meant to happen sinxe before he was even born. No, it's exactly the same thing. Shulk's actions were bound to happen, because Zanza was making them happen. The world of Xenoblade does not follow the rules of predestination. Zanza thinks it does because he thinks he's the absolute god of Bionis paralleled only by Mayneth, but he's dead wrong on both accounts. He thinks that whatever he decides he wants, he gets, but that's not true. Shulk's actions in the game were planned by Dickson and Zanza, not by predestination, Zanza simply believes that he is providence incarnated. It's all basically summed up in his first few lines when he reappears in the story. Quote Do not be surprised. Everything in this world is dictated by the passage of fate. As all that exists is interconnected, time can flow only towards the inevitable. That is the vision of which I, the Monado, am the origin. That which will be, will be. And then rejected when Zanza is defeated. Quote Alvis [V.O.] Even gods are merely beings restricted to the limited power determined by providence. That power, although great, is not unlimited. [As Alvis speaks, Shulk's True Monado lights up as well, and a line of light forms from it, connecting first to Meyneth's Monado, then to Zanza's Monado. All three Monados are linked, forming a triangle connecting Shulk and Zanza.] Shulk That voice! Zanza Alvis?! How dare you disobey me?! [Zanza shouts into the void.] Alvis [V.O.] I am Monado. I was here at the beginning. And I will proclaim the end. Zanza But that... that's impossible! Zanza thinks he is the monad (supreme being), but he isn't, Alvis is. Zanza as a powerful being can greatly influence the world and the people within it, but he cannot control their destiny. Shulk absolutely does have free will for the first 80% of the game. If you remember a little before the Egil fight, Shulk begins to wonder if it's right to use the monado to kill Egil, and because of that thought he is punished by Zanza and subjected to immense agony. Yet he still refuses to kill Egil when the time comes. Even near the start of the game he describes Zanza's influence as a voice in his head telling him to slaughter the mechonis. It's clear it's a voice he could choose to follow or ignore, and chooses to follow until he learns there are people inside, at which point he starts searching for an alternate solution. Shulk's pacifism is clearly not what Zanza wants, yet Shulk can still act that way because he is a separate entity with the ability to choose. You seem to be buying into Zanza's hype that he's the real deal as a god when he clearly isn't. The audience is meant to question the first 80% of the story when Zanza shows up and declared himself unbeatable, it's the darkest hour of the story, but the idea that it was all predestined is soundly rejected by kicking Zanza's ass. Edited November 30, 2018 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 11 hours ago, Jotari said: Well he does utterly fail to save Fiora or the Emperor and runs into trouble using it when the Egil uses the Apocrypha. Well i mean, Fiora's death is negated (not even gonna bother spoiler-marking this, this spoiler has already received too much exposure, thanks Smash Bros). And sure, Egil nullified the Monado with the Aopcrypha.....only for Shulk to snap his fingers and be like "lol jk" in literally the next area. It supposedly takes a toll on him but we only see that happening once and it was right before they went to deal with the source of the problem. 11 hours ago, Jotari said: He's given this power for most of the game, but then it's taken away from him in the final act, Except Spoiler He doesn't get his power taken away from him. Zanza takes back the Monado, yes, but Shulk literally gets a Replica Monado somehow capable of matching the powers of Zanza's Monado moments after. How the fuck Egil's dad knew how to even make one is never explained. You really should spoiler tag these things. 11 hours ago, Jotari said: Spoiler No, it's exactly the same thing. Shulk's actions were bound to happen, because Zanza was making them happen. The world of Xenoblade does not follow the rules of predestination. Zanza thinks it does because he thinks he's the absolute god of Bionis paralleled only by Mayneth, but he's dead wrong on both accounts. He thinks that whatever he decides he wants, he gets, but that's not true. Shulk's actions in the game were planned by Dickson and Zanza, not by predestination, Zanza simply believes that he is providence incarnated. Quote Do not be surprised. Everything in this world is dictated by the passage of fate. As all that exists is interconnected, time can flow only towards the inevitable. That is the vision of which I, the Monado, am the origin. That which will be, will be And then rejected when Zanza is defeated. Quote Alvis [V.O.] Even gods are merely beings restricted to the limited power determined by providence. That power, although great, is not unlimited. [As Alvis speaks, Shulk's True Monado lights up as well, and a line of light forms from it, connecting first to Meyneth's Monado, then to Zanza's Monado. All three Monados are linked, forming a triangle connecting Shulk and Zanza.] Shulk That voice! Zanza Alvis?! How dare you disobey me?! [Zanza shouts into the void.] Alvis [V.O.] I am Monado. I was here at the beginning. And I will proclaim the end. Zanza But that... that's impossible! Zanza thinks he is the monad (supreme being), but he isn't, Alvis is. Zanza as a powerful being can greatly influence the world and the people within it, but he cannot control their destiny. Shulk absolutely does have free will for the first 80% of the game. If you remember a little before the Egil fight, Shulk begins to wonder if it's right to use the monado to kill Egil, and because of that thought he is punished by Zanza and subjected to immense agony. Yet he still refuses to kill Egil when the time comes. Even near the start of the game he describes Zanza's influence as a voice in his head telling him to slaughter the mechonis. It's clear it's a voice he could choose to follow or ignore, and chooses to follow until he learns there are people inside, at which point he starts searching for an alternate solution. Shulk's pacifism is clearly not what Zanza wants, yet Shulk can still act that way because he is a separate entity with the ability to choose. You seem to be buying into Zanza's hype that he's the real deal as a god when he clearly isn't. The audience is meant to question the first 80% of the story when Zanza shows up and declared himself unbeatable, it's the darkest hour of the story, but the idea that it was all predestined is soundly rejected by kicking Zanza's ass. Spoiler Ok i'll admit defeat here. You're right that i was buying Zanza's hype and i shouldn't have because there never seems to be any actual Gods in this series. However, while i will no longer see Zanza ruining the games themes, i still will hold by my stance that he retroactively makes Shulk a worse character than he should be because of the powers of convince. Even with Zanza and Dickson planning it all out, the fact that Shulk never really gets any setbacks and constantly keeps perfecting the Monado since he set out on his journey and other things is just something that rubs me the wrong way. Shulk can do all of this because Zanza was acting as a substitute for his soul. Because of that, Zanza is still a big blemish on a character and i have to label him as the series' worst villain because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 9 hours ago, Armagon said: Well i mean, Fiora's death is negated (not even gonna bother spoiler-marking this, this spoiler has already received too much exposure, thanks Smash Bros). And sure, Egil nullified the Monado with the Aopcrypha.....only for Shulk to snap his fingers and be like "lol jk" in literally the next area. It supposedly takes a toll on him but we only see that happening once and it was right before they went to deal with the source of the problem. Except Hide contents He doesn't get his power taken away from him. Zanza takes back the Monado, yes, but Shulk literally gets a Replica Monado somehow capable of matching the powers of Zanza's Monado moments after. How the fuck Egil's dad knew how to even make one is never explained. You really should spoiler tag these things. Hide contents Ok i'll admit defeat here. You're right that i was buying Zanza's hype and i shouldn't have because there never seems to be any actual Gods in this series. However, while i will no longer see Zanza ruining the games themes, i still will hold by my stance that he retroactively makes Shulk a worse character than he should be because of the powers of convince. Even with Zanza and Dickson planning it all out, the fact that Shulk never really gets any setbacks and constantly keeps perfecting the Monado since he set out on his journey and other things is just something that rubs me the wrong way. Shulk can do all of this because Zanza was acting as a substitute for his soul. Because of that, Zanza is still a big blemish on a character and i have to label him as the series' worst villain because of it. I don't see how he makes Shulk a worse character on retrospect. If your issue is that Shulk is a Mary Sue because he uses the Monado with ease, then that's an issue on him, and giving an explanation for it doesn't really make it worse. Would you rather Shulk was magically able to use the Monado expertly for no reason at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Jotari said: I don't see how he makes Shulk a worse character on retrospect. If your issue is that Shulk is a Mary Sue because he uses the Monado with ease, then that's an issue on him, and giving an explanation for it doesn't really make it worse. Would you rather Shulk was magically able to use the Monado expertly for no reason at all? Disagree, it's because of the nature of the explanation that makes it worse. Obviously, a reason is better than none in most cases however Spoiler Shulk's easy mastery of the Monado basically comes down to "because God said so". I don't think Shulk is a Mary Sue (never mind the fact that that term has lost all meaning) because he isn't written to be a perfect boy, especially mentally. However, i would put him on the lower end of the Xeno protag tier list for reasons i have already explained. Edited December 1, 2018 by Armagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, Armagon said: Disagree, it's because of the nature of the explanation that makes it worse. Obviously, a reason is better than none in most cases however Hide contents Shulk's easy mastery of the Monado basically comes down to "because God said so". I don't think Shulk is a Mary Sue (never mind the fact that that term has lost all meaning) because he isn't written to be a perfect boy, especially mentally. However, i would put him on the lower end of the Xeno protag tier list for reasons i have already explained. Well it's not because God said so. It's because God was manipulating him to waging a jihad and then God takes the power away but Shulk uses it anyway because he deems himself just as entitled to shape the future as God is. Also regarding spoilers, I'm not overly concerned about playing coy about a game that's over two generations old at this point. There is a statue of limitations on these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Jotari said: Spoiler Well it's not because God said so. It's because God was manipulating him to waging a jihad and then God takes the power away but Shulk uses it anyway because he deems himself just as entitled to shape the future as God is. Spoiler Manipulating and making his journey relatively easy are two different things. Shulk isn't the only Xeno protag to have some sort of special power (divinely granted or otherwise) but he's the only who hardly has setbacks because of it. I would've prefered it if he like, trained with the Monado prior to the Colony 9 attack and his Monado Arts didn't unlock in the exact moment he needed them to. Just some examples of how i would fix things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lief Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Welp, my kingdom hearts journey got interrupted HARD by bloodborne and dark souls 3. Watching a playthrough of Deracine (From software’s new vr game) got me into the mood to play bloodborne again. I made like my fourth skill build but this time using false depth chalices to get the burial blade way earlier than then intended. Then I got bored of bloodborne again, since I already got 100s of hours on that game, and decided to play dark souls 3 again instead since I have two characters (one quality and one pyromancer) still sitting incomplete, and I still haven’t beaten the game. But instead of continuing my godlike pyro run, I started a dexterity build instead, and so far got him to yhorm and Aldrich after taking on dancer, oceiros, and champion gun early for that sweet chaos blade (which I haven’t used since I’m having too much fun with my sharp Astora greatsword). Now I’ve been watching videos of different builds on YouTube, and I’m feeling the itch to create a pure faith build now. At this rate I’m never going to finish Birth by Sleep X_X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 Replayed Lufia 2 and Front Mission 1 Lufia 2 - I enjoyed the main story, puzzles were better than I remembered, but the main story's low difficulty was more noticiable than before. Toyed around to do the Ancient Cave with no Blue Chest / Exit gate support. It's pretty easy to say that if it were a standalone game it would be just about anybody's the top 10 rouges - It's a lot harder than the main story, but it does give you a lot of options for how you want to play it, since if you only want to beat it at all you can gradually acculamte the blue chest items and start out with far better resrouces. Overall, Lufia 2 has aged very well for me. Front Mission 1 - The game has 30 missions, but it's only realy a medium-hard game for the first 15 of them. For the first half of the game, it's pretty aggresive about keeping enemies a tech level ahead of you, and you can't match them stat wise until the next city, when they'll go up yet another one.. It applies this to not just bosses, but about 2/3 of the regular grunts, with the Hell's Wall Frost mission being the most infamous. The game also has an economy, but compared to (Ogre Battle SNES) it's pretty trivial, you always have more money than you need, even without farming, and the enemy balance encourages fully upgrading 5-7 core squad members at all times, despite really having enough to do so for 13~ of the 17 charathers. The second half of the game, the difficulty just tanks. I feel like it's a combination of your charathers finally learning abilities, and the % difference between equipment tiers no longer being all that high that it can save the computers from their AI. I will say that it does a better job than expected (Front Mission 3's deployment slot based priority comes to mind), but there really isn't much hassle in seperating enemy groups into chunks and fighting them on your own terms. I would say that among its contemporary SRPGs.. I definitely prefer it to Fire Emblem 4, about 60/40 of its gameplay and map design to Shining Force, but the second half of my playthrough did feel like a bit of a let down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 i'm currently playing 2 different series, almost side by side( i said almost because i tend to focus on each one depending on the time i have at my disposal ). Fire Emblem: ~ given that i already played and completed plenty of its titles before( GBA/DS/3DS era ), i've decided to start a final marathon few months ago out of nostalgia for the franchise, wich has led me to complete the original "Gaiden" for NES and "Mystery of the Emblem" for SNES so far( i didn't bother with FE1 at all since Mystery is partially a remake with few differences anyway ). i could have gone further with the other titles, but i got myself stuck in replaying "Genealogy of the Holy War" a lot due to curiosity about secret stuff and different character builds. once i'm done with it, i'll move on to "Thracia 776". Kingdom Hearts: ~ another franchise from my childhood, wich back in the days got me interested due to the Final Fantasy characters crossover. i wanted to revisit the serie once more, before moving on with KH3 next year. currently revisited and completed KH1 for PS2, "Chain of Memories" for GBA, "358/2 Days" for Nintendo DS and KH2 for PS2. plus i watched the whole story of "Re:Chain of Memories", "Re:Coded" and "KH X Back Cover", just to have everything connected and not miss a thing. only "Birth by Sleep" for PSP and "Dream Drop Distance" for Nintendo 3DS left for me to revisit. plus "A Fragmentary Passage" to watch on Youtube. hopefully, after 15 years of spinoffs and sequels, we'll be able to see an end to this long, complicated story( and Nomura will finally move on to the FF VII remake ). i'm not sure if i should give a try to Unchained X for smartphone in order to deepen my knowledge of the story. the gameplay doesn't really inspire me much, and that's exactly why i've been holding back so far. if anyone else has played Unchained X, feel free to share your opinion, if you think it's worth the time or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Fenreir said: i'm currently playing 2 different series, almost side by side( i said almost because i tend to focus on each one depending on the time i have at my disposal ). Fire Emblem: ~ given that i already played and completed plenty of its titles before( GBA/DS/3DS era ), i've decided to start a final marathon few months ago out of nostalgia for the franchise, wich has led me to complete the original "Gaiden" for NES and "Mystery of the Emblem" for SNES so far( i didn't bother with FE1 at all since Mystery is partially a remake with few differences anyway ). i could have gone further with the other titles, but i got myself stuck in replaying "Genealogy of the Holy War" a lot due to curiosity about secret stuff and different character builds. once i'm done with it, i'll move on to "Thracia 776". Kingdom Hearts: ~ another franchise from my childhood, wich back in the days got me interested due to the Final Fantasy characters crossover. i wanted to revisit the serie once more, before moving on with KH3 next year. currently revisited and completed KH1 for PS2, "Chain of Memories" for GBA, "358/2 Days" for Nintendo DS and KH2 for PS2. plus i watched the whole story of "Re:Chain of Memories", "Re:Coded" and "KH X Back Cover", just to have everything connected and not miss a thing. only "Birth by Sleep" for PSP and "Dream Drop Distance" for Nintendo 3DS left for me to revisit. plus "A Fragmentary Passage" to watch on Youtube. hopefully, after 15 years of spinoffs and sequels, we'll be able to see an end to this long, complicated story( and Nomura will finally move on to the FF VII remake ). i'm not sure if i should give a try to Unchained X for smartphone in order to deepen my knowledge of the story. the gameplay doesn't really inspire me much, and that's exactly why i've been holding back so far. if anyone else has played Unchained X, feel free to share your opinion, if you think it's worth the time or not. I haven't played Union X but from what one of my friends tell me, it's not worth it. The gameplay is really repetitive and all the plot details are available in the movie version. Edited December 8, 2018 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modamy Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 On 12/7/2018 at 2:04 PM, Fenreir said: if anyone else has played Unchained X, feel free to share your opinion, if you think it's worth the time or not. If your really interested and want to try for yourself KHUX skips you to any mission with a cutscene now (it doesn't mean that the cutscene has anything important in it though) so you would probably be playing a couple dozen missions to get to anything interesting. Although I would say to just get Kingdom Hearts: The story so far which is a huge collection of everything in the series so far that's important to KH3. Also KH3 isn't going to end the series it will just end the main antagonist of the series up to this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Going throught SMT Strange Journey ATM. I'd point out a thing i noticed about my percpetion of the game atm when im done but its NOT good, not enough to really take off my enjoyment of the game though. But yeah classic SMT experience of "spent 3 hours looking up shit and played the game for an hour" is something i look forward to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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