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How to Handle Character Flaws?


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Just now, Otts486 said:

Pretty much this. I've said this before and I'm going to say it again. A good character to me is a character I can understand or relate to in some fashion. I do not necessarily need to agree with what they say or do I just have to understand the reasoning behind those words or actions. The reason I can't get behind Celica's decision to trust jedah and not tell her friends is because there is literally no reason to do either of those things. I mean at this point in the story she's learned to stop keeping secrets and to trust her allies. However the minute she gets to rigel all of that development is thrown completely out the window in favor of advancing the plot. ugh it just annoys me. 

Think of Celica's background - raised in a castle, then a village, then some island.  She knows how to keep a secret, and does so because it's for the good of everyone.  It's very unlikely that she's had experience with someone using her.

Then, Jedah.  With Duma's moniker of power, it means that he'd have to best everyone that's after his position.  Had he been an idiot, someone with more brains than him would've yanked the carpet out from under his feet.  Thus, he'd have some diplomatic know-how.

We, the audience know that Jedah is bad news.  Celica doesn't see Jedah rub his hands evilly, because he's smart enough not to do it in front of her.  Given both of their backgrounds, it's not out of the question for her to trust him.  It probably could've been less clunky, but the premise isn't out of left field.

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6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Think of Celica's background - raised in a castle, then a village, then some island.  She knows how to keep a secret, and does so because it's for the good of everyone.  It's very unlikely that she's had experience with someone using her.

Then, Jedah.  With Duma's moniker of power, it means that he'd have to best everyone that's after his position.  Had he been an idiot, someone with more brains than him would've yanked the carpet out from under his feet.  Thus, he'd have some diplomatic know-how.

We, the audience know that Jedah is bad news.  Celica doesn't see Jedah rub his hands evilly, because he's smart enough not to do it in front of her.  Given both of their backgrounds, it's not out of the question for her to trust him.  It probably could've been less clunky, but the premise isn't out of left field.

That is true and I will agree here but I still don't like the fact that she kept it a secret from the rest of her army mainly because literally a couple chapters prior she learned not to do that but then she does do that and yeah. it kind of cheapens all the development she went through by the end of act three.

Edited by Otts486
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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Think of Celica's background - raised in a castle, then a village, then some island.  She knows how to keep a secret, and does so because it's for the good of everyone.  It's very unlikely that she's had experience with someone using her.

Then, Jedah.  With Duma's moniker of power, it means that he'd have to best everyone that's after his position.  Had he been an idiot, someone with more brains than him would've yanked the carpet out from under his feet.  Thus, he'd have some diplomatic know-how.

We, the audience know that Jedah is bad news.  Celica doesn't see Jedah rub his hands evilly, because he's smart enough not to do it in front of her.  Given both of their backgrounds, it's not out of the question for her to trust him.  It probably could've been less clunky, but the premise isn't out of left field.

Quote

Jedah: Have you never thought it strange, Princess Anthiese? Rigel and Zofia are twin nations founded on the backs of divine dragons. And yet, dire changes currently befall them both. Duma seeks power vast enough to destroy all balance in the world. Meanwhile, Mila’s intemperate bounty drives the Zofians to depravity.

Celica: Mila provides for her children!

Jedah: Her soul, as Duma’s, is host to the madness shared by all dragonkind. Duma will grow stronger till that power brings his ruin—and Rigel’s alongside it. It is no different from how Zofia now rots in Mila’s absence.

Celica: Her absence by your hand! And what is this madness you speak of? Do you truly claim that Mila and Duma are fated to destroy themselves?

Jedah: I do. Which is exactly why your soul is required. It is rare and precious—born of Zofian royal blood and marked by the Brand. Such a soul could set Duma’s path to rights and ensure his survival. And with Mila restored to her place, both our peoples might be saved. As for the boy, Alm—if you do this, he could lay down his arms.

Celica: *gasp*

Jedah: Well? What say you? I think it is a most generous offer, myself…

Celica: …Perhaps you’re right. In fact, it may be TOO generous. How can I possibly believe a thing that you’ve told me?

Jedah: I have spoken only truth, Princess. But you needn’t give your answer now. I will await your reply atop Duma Tower. Keh heh heh…

I felt the conversation could have been handled better than what we got.

 

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2 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

That is true and I will agree here but I still don't like the fact that she kept it a secret from the rest of her army mainly because literally a couple chapters prior she learned not to do that but then she does do that and yeah.

If you want a darker IRL version of this, check out how domestic abuse works, and how the victim reacts to friends/family.

1 minute ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I felt the conversation could have been handled better than what we got.

From Celica's PoV, it's plausible.  And in that setting, that's what matters.

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5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If you want a darker IRL version of this, check out how domestic abuse works, and how the victim reacts to friends/family.

okay that's fair. I don't know it's just that I feel the game could've done more to get us to understand celica's thought process a little better or make it seem that was the only option she had or something along those lines.

Edited by Otts486
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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

From Celica's PoV, it's plausible.  And in that setting, that's what matters.

True, but I find it annoying comparing her to other protagonists if they were in the same shoes.

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4 hours ago, Otts486 said:

The reason I can't get behind Celica's decision to trust jedah and not tell her friends is because there is literally no reason to do either of those things. I mean at this point in the story she's learned to stop keeping secrets and to trust her allies. However the minute she gets to rigel all of that development is thrown completely out the window in favor of advancing the plot. ugh it just annoys me. 

Bottling things up and keeping some stuff to herself has always been a part of Celica's character, even as a kid and it kinda makes sense given she's been the target of assassinations.  Alm, Mae and Kliff confirm this. It's not OOC by any means. Her character doesn't regress in chapter 4 but her circumstances do given as she has to shoulder more responsibility and burdens. The pressure starts to get to her hence the seemingly "OOC" moments like the "Nobody knows how I feel!" line. She firmly believes it's her duty and burden as Zofia's princess and one of the two brand bearers to fix this mess. She puts her neck on the line so others don't have to. This is one of her main character flaws. She clearly trusts the people traveling with her but she doesn't want to burden them. And honestly, telling Saber, Mae or whoever about her plan wouldn't have done much so there's little strategic value there.

And on the whole jedah thing. The first time they meet, Celica is outright wary and doesn't trust him.

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17 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I can't really judge the writing behind Sigurd and Leif because I have not played the Jugdral games. I have watched an LP of SoV so I know Celica's character but probably not enough to analyse her. I think Ghast Station's video on her is good and shows that she's well-written for the most part. The only lords I can talk about with merit are the ones from FE6-FE10 since I've played all five of those games. 

I don't watch Ghast Station's videos to be perfectly honest, so I really don't know what you're talking about there.  I'd much rather hear what you have to say.  To me, I see a character with infuriating flaws that she never improves upon and that are in place for the express purpose of making it so that she needs to be rescued by Alm.

I have not played Thracia 776, but Leif doesn't really have any overplayed traits; his hatred for Thracia (which I've heard about in passing, as it's not really portrayed in Genealogy) is understandable, given what their king did to both of his parents.  He learns to get over that hatred when he needs to ally himself with Thracians, and he is eventually able to breach that barrier to recruit his Thracia-raised sister Altenna.  He does eventually need to be rescued by Seliph, but the flaw that led to that point is believable and doesn't make him seem weaker than Seliph.

As for Sigurd, his flaw is more subtly revealed as such as time goes on.  Right off the bat, you see he acts rashly, wanting to charge off into Verdane to rescue Adean all by himself, which is harmless because his allies come to his aid anyway.  Later, he decides to harbor a little boy who just so happens to be the prince of his enemy nation (Isaac) without telling his king, Azmur of Grannvale, about it.  Much later on, this particular rash act works against him, as the main antagonist uses the fact that Sigurd sheltered the prince of Isaac as "proof" that he's a traitor to the king himself; had the king known the reason for Sigurd's sheltering of the kid early on, he wouldn't have been as inclined to believe that Sigurd and House Chalphy in general were a traitors (which might have been enough to change the course of history, since he wan't so willing to believe it in the first place).

It works well because not only is it believable, barely forced, and doesn't make him seem like a weaker protagonist, but because we don't even believe it's a significant flaw until it's too late for him to fix it.  And in that sense - and because of the fate he ultimately faces - he doesn't need to improve on that flaw.

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