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Increased Dramatization for a Potential FE 4 Echoes?


Ae†her
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Genealogy has a lot of twists and turns in the plot. It's not always a happy slide for our main heroes and villains. We have a lot of dialogue (translated probably imperfectly, if you don't speak Japanese) that isn't bad at all, but probably doesn't pop out at you. the way dialogue in your favorite movies and TV shows do.

 

I guess what I'm trying to ask here is what do you think could be done to help make the all the (sort of passive) drama stand out, if there were to be an FE 4 remake? Do you think we should add more movie-style cut-scenes, write certain characters differently, add more style to the dialogue...etc.?

 

My Thoughts:
I personally think the dialogue could be more complex as with any other FE game (at least looking at it from an English-only stand point), and only so that it brings out the personalities and emotions of the characters out a little more. I'm also thinking this could be one FE game where cutscenes are just everywhere, and almost makes the game into a big episodic (chapter by chapter) show, that doesn't compromise on the gameplay experience. It's a big goal for Intelligent Systems, but after looking at Shadows of Valentia I'm confident they have the ability to pull it off for an epic FE 4 remake, that's more dramatic.

Edit: Oh and also writing more backgrounds for relevant characters such as Byron.

Edited by Ae†her
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Personally, I'd think it might be fine, so long that adding to the word count doesn't come with a descrease of substance. One of the things I worry of a Genealogy remake is that not everything could survive the transition.

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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Personally, I'd think it might be fine, so long that adding to the word count doesn't come with a descrease of substance. One of the things I worry of a Genealogy remake is that not everything could survive the transition.

Yeah, or if they try to simplify certain events and moments in the series for no reason. That's a big no-no for me as well.

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No matter what they do, I don't want them to make it overly-dramatic, melodramatic, or too goofy. If they can keep it grounded and make it fit, they can do whatever they want. Obviously there are big emotional pieces, like with Sigurd's final confrontation with Arvis, but by and large, the lack of major dramatics helps sell how fucked Jugdral is. Everything has gone to shit, everyone is constantly trying to kill everyone else, and it's just the way of life.

Edited by Slumber
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Are you saying that instead of the headshots, it shows their character models in motion? If so, cutscenes could last longer, but could work well if they use it effectively. I could see it really working well for the following scenes:
 

Spoiler

 

The Escape of Adean and Dew.

Meeting Deidre in the Spirit Forest.

Sigurd and Eldigan face off.

Deidre captured.

Briggid betrayed.

Mahnya's death.

Lewyn receives Forseti.

The BBQ

The New Generation

Meeting Julia and Lewyn(?)

Patty/Daisy escaping Yied, Lief & Co. face off the empire

Tine's Plight

Lene imprisoned

Meeting Ced

Freeing Coirpre

Facing off against Travant

Miletos Scramble (Julius and Ishtar)

Seliph's Revenge; Arvis' Last Stand

Receiving Tyrfing

Ghosts of the Past

Julia captured.

The Deadlords Awakened.

Julia Awakened.

The Final Showdown.

The End

 

I initially didn't plan to make the list that long. Whoops.

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I'd rather not have something that's overly dramatic.  I dislike unnecessary theatrics.

What I'd want is a little more background on everyone that isn't Sigurd.  Who's this Naoise guy?  Why is Alec such a dick to Arden at the beginning of the game?  For a cast so small, there's so many forgettable characters.

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5 hours ago, eclipse said:

What I'd want is a little more background on everyone that isn't Sigurd.  Who's this Naoise guy?  Why is Alec such a dick to Arden at the beginning of the game?  For a cast so small, there's so many forgettable characters.

Team Chalphy is indeed incredibly generic but the rest of the team makes more of an impression. Azelle stands out due to his complex relation with Arvis, Lex is instantly recognizable as SNES Hector, Quan can generally back up his status, Dew does the bratty thief boy act well enough and Ayra definitely made an impression on people.

All in all I'd say Genealogy did a very impressive job of giving almost everyone in gen 1 a clearly defined personality and the chance to show it off. But in Gen two we certainly do get a lot of forgettable units. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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6 hours ago, eclipse said:

I'd rather not have something that's overly dramatic.  I dislike unnecessary theatrics.

What I'd want is a little more background on everyone that isn't Sigurd.  Who's this Naoise guy?  Why is Alec such a dick to Arden at the beginning of the game?  For a cast so small, there's so many forgettable characters.

I'm in the same boat, if there is a remake of FE4 the second generation will have a harder time due to most of their personalities are interchangeable with others. The new version shouldn't just focus on being tragic.

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22 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I'm in the same boat, if there is a remake of FE4 the second generation will have a harder time due to most of their personalities are interchangeable with others. The new version shouldn't just focus on being tragic.

Yeah, I'm a massive fan of FE4's second gen, and I can acknowledge that really, only Seliph, Leif, Altenna, Julia, Ced, Shanan and Ares stand out.

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Just turn Gen 1 into an Opera in four acts called "Sigurd and Arvis". Followed by a three act sequel called "Emperor Arvis" that shows the Emperor's regretful beginnings of his reign, the long happy days with tucked away unease, and then comes the break of winter and tragedy, ending with Tyrfing through his heart. For Thracia 776, we get an action-packed ballet, along the lines of Spartacus, sans the dining stuff that fills the middle of it. Seliph, to appeal to crowds who aren't Gunter, Nomah, Bantu and Niime, we make Seliph Baldur Chalphy: Super Scion of Light the Musical!

 

More seriously, Genealogy seems like it has enough potential dramatic events in it as is, and I would like it all to be handed seriously, but not over-the-top melondrama. I don't want the script carelessly made into a mess of "thees" and "thous" just to add a faux high art flourish to it, but if they can get the people who wrote Bastian to localize the script, great, he was formality done well. Things like Silvia and Arden should have a bit more of a lowbrow tongue and flavor to it, but nothing horny-cussing fan translation bad.

Making Manfroy less godly in the writing, or fixing other issues in it that wouldn't necessarily alter the course of events, but rather make them a bit more rational or developed, would be appreciated.

 

As for character writing, no Faye-like additions, no MUs, no overly contemporary character language, just the same old 24 playable character roster per Gen, maybe with Saias added in the 2nd Gen and Arion too. And don't botch Azelle, or anyone else in the 1st Gen really, insofar as they can be botched.

I'd be perfectly fine with removing all of Seliph's innards and rewriting his personality, since the same mild and idealistic personality as Marth, Alm, Roy, and Eliwood is dreadfully dull nowadays. The rest of the 2nd Gen, well they can try to go crazy with them, but the Subs make this so much harder.

 

As for cutscenes, I liked them in RD and PoR, but I haven't bothered to really care about them since.

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3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As for character writing, no Faye-like additions, no MUs, no overly contemporary character language, just the same old 24 playable character roster per Gen, maybe with Saias added in the 2nd Gen and Arion too. And don't botch Azelle, or anyone else in the 1st Gen really, insofar as they can be botched. 

I'm not a fan of this idea, the first generation would like a strong flyer to make certain points easier. Or have a better ax uses than what do we have. 

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6 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I'm in the same boat, if there is a remake of FE4 the second generation will have a harder time due to most of their personalities are interchangeable with others. The new version shouldn't just focus on being tragic.

I was thinking they would have cutscenes where characters reflect upon good old memories, and traditions they hold dearly. Like a scene where Byron and Sigurd talk to each other about their family traditions, past memories, and their way of life. Then later on Sigurd teaching little Seliph what his father taught him. I would never want a story to just focus on all the tragedy in the world all the time, it makes the story feel somewhat unrealistic, if everyone was just sad all the time. I think if Intelligent Systems got any decent fantasy writer, then this isn't even something to worry about.

13 hours ago, eclipse said:

I'd rather not have something that's overly dramatic.  I dislike unnecessary theatrics.

What I'd want is a little more background on everyone that isn't Sigurd.  Who's this Naoise guy?  Why is Alec such a dick to Arden at the beginning of the game?  For a cast so small, there's so many forgettable characters.

I agree that it shouldn't be overly dramatic. To me if it was overly dramatic it would feel like it was trying too hard, the story should play itself out and create the drama on it's own. It's just that some cutscenes here and there could really bring out the intensity of certain moments in the story. 

As for the background part I completely agree. I imagine that will be the most important aspect in the Genealogy Echoes' Story. Whether the new backgrounds and livened personalities make sense or not, and if they stay true to the original game.

14 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Are you saying that instead of the headshots, it shows their character models in motion? If so, cutscenes could last longer, but could work well if they use it effectively. I could see it really working well for the following scenes:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The Escape of Adean and Dew.

Meeting Deidre in the Spirit Forest.

Sigurd and Eldigan face off.

Deidre captured.

Briggid betrayed.

Mahnya's death.

Lewyn receives Forseti.

The BBQ

The New Generation

Meeting Julia and Lewyn(?)

Patty/Daisy escaping Yied, Lief & Co. face off the empire

Tine's Plight

Lene imprisoned

Meeting Ced

Freeing Coirpre

Facing off against Travant

Miletos Scramble (Julius and Ishtar)

Seliph's Revenge; Arvis' Last Stand

Receiving Tyrfing

Ghosts of the Past

Julia captured.

The Deadlords Awakened.

Julia Awakened.

The Final Showdown.

The End

 

I initially didn't plan to make the list that long. Whoops.

A little bit of fancy cutscenes here and there even for battles would be appreciated.

15 hours ago, Slumber said:

No matter what they do, I don't want them to make it overly-dramatic, melodramatic, or too goofy. If they can keep it grounded and make it fit, they can do whatever they want. Obviously there are big emotional pieces, like with Sigurd's final confrontation with Arvis, but by and large, the lack of major dramatics helps sell how fucked Jugdral is. Everything has gone to shit, everyone is constantly trying to kill everyone else, and it's just the way of life.

 I completely agree that it shouldn't be over-dramatic or come off as always trying to be tragic. The story should let the themes and emotions of the game stand out on it's own.

 

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Come to think about it the bare characterization of the second gen doesn't have to be a problem. The characters from Gaiden also had absolutely nothing to work with but echoes modernized them fantastically. If Gaiden's characters could go from blank slates to a fully fledged cast than so can the second gens. 

They could take some cues from the manga. Definitely not the part were every villain is sympathetic but the scene with Shanan and Oifey desperately trying to protect deirdre only to fail miserable could work pretty well. 

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45 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Come to think about it the bare characterization of the second gen doesn't have to be a problem. The characters from Gaiden also had absolutely nothing to work with but echoes modernized them fantastically. If Gaiden's characters could go from blank slates to a fully fledged cast than so can the second gens. 

 

There is still the issue of being able to mix subs and non-subs. Writing Arthur and Amid identically might work, but not Ulster and Dalvin. And you're definitely going to have to write a hypothetical LanaxFebail support differently than a MuirnexAsaello, and you'll likely have to write LanaxAsaello and MuirnexFebail differently as well.

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I feel like they should remake without changing much just like Shadows of Valentia. Gaiden map design is terrible, and people thought the game would be terrible as well. Genealogy just needs support conversations and a faster pace.

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On 5/23/2018 at 1:49 PM, arctic.fox0708 said:

I feel like they should remake without changing much just like Shadows of Valentia. Gaiden map design is terrible, and people thought the game would be terrible as well. Genealogy just needs support conversations and a faster pace.

I feel like the story is too long, and complex to be go at a fast pace. I wouldn't mind if Genealogy Echoes is really long and has like double the length of a normal FE game (that's counting both parts of the story.)

On 5/22/2018 at 6:41 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Come to think about it the bare characterization of the second gen doesn't have to be a problem. The characters from Gaiden also had absolutely nothing to work with but echoes modernized them fantastically. If Gaiden's characters could go from blank slates to a fully fledged cast than so can the second gens. 

They could take some cues from the manga. Definitely not the part were every villain is sympathetic but the scene with Shanan and Oifey desperately trying to protect deirdre only to fail miserable could work pretty well. 

I would like it if we can get out of this perpetual cycle of labeling characters as villains and heroes in FE. Ever character has triumphs and falls that lead them to do moral and immoral things. It's just that the "villains" tend to stick to those normally deemed as immoral acts, but they're doing it in a way that falls within their personalities, and I know for sure a lot of characters in FE 4 apart from a few aren't criminals just because they like killing and betraying people. And our "heroes" while they can certainly do illegal things and immoral things here and there, they generally tend to have a stronger sense of honor and sticking to traditions and values even if it may not lead them towards victory. They don't have to be forcefully sympathetic, unless there is a reason for them to be like Javarro or Ishtar.

Edited by Ae†her
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On 5/22/2018 at 8:47 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Azelle stands out due to his complex relation with Arvis,

Alvis once mentions how Azelle is important to him (without even a passing reference later when he orders the group, Azelle included, to be slaughtered) and Azelle admits in an easily missed conversation that he finds Alvis scary. We get some more information from Kaga's notes and stuff, but the game gives us basically nothing between the Azelle and Alvis relationship, the sole two references paints an interesting picture, but it's our own desire to see a complex relationship more so than something that is actually contained in the game. This is one thing in particular I'd like to see expanded upon.

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28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alvis once mentions how Azelle is important to him (without even a passing reference later when he orders the group, Azelle included, to be slaughtered) and Azelle admits in an easily missed conversation that he finds Alvis scary. We get some more information from Kaga's notes and stuff, but the game gives us basically nothing between the Azelle and Alvis relationship, the sole two references paints an interesting picture, but it's our own desire to see a complex relationship more so than something that is actually contained in the game. This is one thing in particular I'd like to see expanded upon.

Lets not forget that genealogy is still a SNES games with all the limitations that brings. Considering Genealogy is clearly trying to flesh out some characters I think we can show it some leniency when it lacks detail. 

Considering these limitations and considering Azelle is a relatively minor character I'd say their relation came off pretty well. Arvis doesn't just say Azelle is important to him but that he ''means the world to him''. That's pretty open coming from a guy who's first line makes him seem pretty conceited and who's clearly up to something. It also falls in line perfectly with the recurring element of Arvis genuinely loving his loved ones despite his flaws. I always saw his statement about Azelle as an early hint of Arvis noble side. Azelle in turn says he's scared of his brother but not just of Arvis himself but explicitly about the possibility that he's a burden to his brother. 

There's also one last conversation about the two brothers. Lex and Azel reflect about having to fight their family. Lex says Arvis has always been good to them and despite his fears Azelle agrees. He says Arvis was like a father to him but also that there are times his brother gets so violent he has a hard time recognizing him.  

Its not enough because its a SNES game but the fundamentals are already there. Brotherly love is acknowledged on both sides while each brother has their complications that damage the relation. For Azelle its his fears, for Arvis its his willingness to barbecue all Azelle's friends for the greater good. And maybe Azelle too. That Arvis doesn't mention his brother in gen 2 is a bit annoying and something a remake should definitely rectify. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Lets not forget that genealogy is still a SNES games with all the limitations that brings. Considering Genealogy is clearly trying to flesh out some characters I think we can show it some leniency when it lacks detail. 

Considering these limitations and considering Azelle is a relatively minor character I'd say their relation came off pretty well. Arvis doesn't just say Azelle is important to him but that he ''means the world to him''. That's pretty open coming from a guy who's first line makes him seem pretty conceited and who's clearly up to something. It also falls in line perfectly with the recurring element of Arvis genuinely loving his loved ones despite his flaws. I always saw his statement about Azelle as an early hint of Arvis noble side. Azelle in turn says he's scared of his brother but not just of Arvis himself but explicitly about the possibility that he's a burden to his brother. 

There's also one last conversation about the two brothers. Lex and Azel reflect about having to fight their family. Lex says Arvis has always been good to them and despite his fears Azelle agrees. He says Arvis was like a father to him but also that there are times his brother gets so violent he has a hard time recognizing him.  

Its not enough because its a SNES game but the fundamentals are already there. Brotherly love is acknowledged on both sides while each brother has their complications that damage the relation. For Azelle its his fears, for Arvis its his willingness to barbecue all Azelle's friends for the greater good. And maybe Azelle too. That Arvis doesn't mention his brother in gen 2 is a bit annoying and something a remake should definitely rectify. 

Of course the foundations are there, but like I said, it's more people (and that's myself included) wishing for a complex relationship than one tangibly existing. Those are some great foundations, Azelle is Alvis' morality pet but Azelle is terrified of the only family member he's ever known. Still, even for a SNES game, the fact that Alvis goes and seemingly kills Azelle (or at least puts him in an extremely dangerous situation where many people do die) and it doesn't get a slightest reference at all, is a bit more than a bit underdeveloped. They easily could have fitted in like a single line from Alvis in Chapter 5 wondering if Azelle is still with Sigurd or showing regret that he might have to sacrifice his brother.

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