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Durability. Yes or no?


Durability or not?  

82 members have voted

  1. 1. Should IS keep Durability

    • Yes
      54
    • No
      28


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I'd take Fates' system any day over the awful clutter that happened in the older gens. Awakening at least had a method to deal with it, but I remember discarding weapons in Sacred Stones the second they fell below ten uses, just so there'd be no chance of them breaking during battle. Prf weapons are even more dumb when included in the system. Either it's no issue because the number of uses is high enough to carry you through the game and then some.. in which case, why have it in the first place? Or it actively discourages the use of the Prf weapon, leading to it gathering dust. It also makes no sense fron a story perspective. "This is the legendary blade that my family has passed down through the generations. For millenia it has existed and will cont- never mind, it's broken. Back to using the wooden stick."

Edited by Nanima
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Fates' system was interesting, but it was easily the worst-balanced part of the game, with damn near every weapon other than iron and bronze having some crippling drawback to using it that made it damn near impossible to justify ever using it, especially when the forging system meant you could generally make iron weapons just as strong as steel or silver for a few gems, and with no drawback. I don't even understand what the point was in trying to make sure none of the weapons were better than the base level iron, when weapon ranks are a thing and rank growth was incredibly slow. Frankly forging and gems should've been used to boost individual attributes of a weapon rather than having a gem for every weapon type, and they should've just balanced weapons over what it's reasonable to let a player have infinite uses of and just let higher rank weapons be objectively better than lower rank ones like they should be.

Edited by Alastor15243
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I honestly don’t care either way. I never really noticed much of a difference since I never run out of weapons because I always stockpile on Irons which are more than good enough to get you through to the end of the game in almost any game. Fates? Iron. PoR? Iron. Blazing Blade? Iron. Notable exceptions being Awakening, in which money comes easily and there’s no real penalty on higher ranked weapons, and SoV, in which a weapon’s skills pretty much determines its value.

I’ll go with weapon durability though because at least that provides a bit more strategy. Just make it so legendary or prf weapons have infinite durability. Or do it the way botw did it with master sword and make them breakable but have them restored after some turns or at the end of the battle.

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2 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

 

I’ll go with weapon durability though because at least that provides a bit more strategy. Just make it so legendary or prf weapons have infinite durability. Or do it the way botw did it with master sword and make them breakable but have them restored after some turns or at the end of the battle.

Honestly that’s how staves should’ve worked in Fates, significantly fewer uses and more expensive, but they recharged between missions. That would’ve made status staves something you could actually build a strategy around if you could use them at least once every map.

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I wouldn't mind durability so much it it weren't for the fact that IS just seems to be clinging on to it for the sake of clinging to a legacy feature that doesn't do anything for strategy in practice (other than encouraging hoarding, especially with unique weapons, that is). It DOES NOT HELP that the only method of weapon repair in most games is a one-of-a-kind staff. As it is, I'm a neigh on durability. 

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Fates' system was interesting, but it was easily the worst-balanced part of the game, with damn near every weapon other than iron and bronze having some crippling drawback to using it that made it damn near impossible to justify ever using it, especially when the forging system meant you could generally make iron weapons just as strong as steel or silver for a few gems, and with no drawback. I don't even understand what the point was in trying to make sure none of the weapons were better than the base level iron, when weapon ranks are a thing and rank growth was incredibly slow. Frankly forging and gems should've been used to boost individual attributes of a weapon rather than having a gem for every weapon type, and they should've just balanced weapons over what it's reasonable to let a player have infinite uses of and just let higher rank weapons be objectively better than lower rank ones like they should be.

The issue I have with Fates's forge system is that it was tedious, impractical, and pretty much unusable. Only getting one gem type with any regularity (two if you're playing Revelation) is enough to drain all the practicality out of the system. Especially when "with any regularity" actually means "once every 4 fights". And while it might be possible to make an iron weapon on par with a silver one, it's also extremely expensive since weapons in Fates are more expensive compared to other games. (For the record, an iron needs to go to +3 [for most weapon types; axes and clubs need +4] to match a silver in terms of might; that's 8000 gold - definitely not a drop in the bucket)

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I wouldn't mind durability so much it it weren't for the fact that IS just seems to be clinging on to it for the sake of clinging to a legacy feature that doesn't do anything for strategy in practice (other than encouraging hoarding, especially with unique weapons, that is). It DOES NOT HELP that the only method of weapon repair in most games is a one-of-a-kind staff. As it is, I'm a neigh on durability. 

The issue I have with Fates's forge system is that it was tedious, impractical, and pretty much unusable. Only getting one gem type with any regularity (two if you're playing Revelation) is enough to drain all the practicality out of the system. Especially when "with any regularity" actually means "once every 4 fights". And while it might be possible to make an iron weapon on par with a silver one, it's also extremely expensive since weapons in Fates are more expensive compared to other games. (For the record, an iron needs to go to +3 [for most weapon types; axes and clubs need +4] to match a silver in terms of might; that's 8000 gold - definitely not a drop in the bucket)

Yeah, well obviously using online fixes that but I have issues with a system heavily fused into gameplay that depends on the servers. You should get more of your gems and food and get randomized npc traders you can exchange your stuff with, and then it should’ve let you also trade with (rather than getting free shit from) your online friends. That way it’s not a choice between the system being broken as shit or useless depending on if you’re online.

Edited by Alastor15243
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If durability is the reason why in Fates doesn't start off with a Silver weapon, why there is only one non-RNG Killing edge in the game and why there are zero Rapiers in the game, then i want durability back as quickly as possible. People might say it incentivizes hoarding, but i couldn't care less, i don't hoard, and people that do need to stop blaming the game for their own choice to do so.

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1 hour ago, OakTree said:

If durability is the reason why in Fates doesn't start off with a Silver weapon, why there is only one non-RNG Killing edge in the game and why there are zero Rapiers in the game, then i want durability back as quickly as possible. People might say it incentivizes hoarding, but i couldn't care less, i don't hoard, and people that do need to stop blaming the game for their own choice to do so.

You DO realize that it's possible to buy killing edges? (Even though the number is limited) Also, I would sooner blame the two factions schtick for no rapiers (considering that Hoshido doesn't bother with armored units, a rapier wouldn't help much on Conquest [it would only help against the occasional Sky Knight and promotions]; on the other hand, Nohr has almost all the classes one would affect between Cavaliers, Paladins, Great Knights, Knights, Generals, Bow Knights, Dark Knights and Strategists. That's pretty damn lopsided, and you know it). Also, part of why people might not use rare and unique weapons is that they just don't need them - is there any good reason to use brave weapons when iron and steel are often enough to get the job done??

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You DO realize that it's possible to buy killing edges? (Even though the number is limited) Also, I would sooner blame the two factions schtick for no rapiers (considering that Hoshido doesn't bother with armored units, a rapier wouldn't help much on Conquest [it would only help against the occasional Sky Knight and promotions]; on the other hand, Nohr has almost all the classes one would affect between Cavaliers, Paladins, Great Knights, Knights, Generals, Bow Knights, Dark Knights and Strategists. That's pretty damn lopsided, and you know it). Also, part of why people might not use rare and unique weapons is that they just don't need them - is there any good reason to use brave weapons when iron and steel are often enough to get the job done??

You can only get a single one without relying on RNG.

And even then they could have easily introduced a weapon with the exact same effects on Birthright at least.

And special weapons always make things easier, even in easy Fire Emblem games it's not too hard to find use for them, think of literally any sittuation where there is an enemy who needs to be attacked by two units with standard weapons to be taken down but only one if the player uses special weapons and there you go.

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16 hours ago, OakTree said:

You can only get a single one without relying on RNG.

Wrong again. There are two in the Dusk Armory (one at level 2, another at level 3). I would sooner complain about how bad killing edges (and killer weapons, in general) are.

16 hours ago, OakTree said:

And even then they could have easily introduced a weapon with the exact same effects on Birthright at least.

Wishful thinking. A katana equivalent to the rapier is something I would not see as feasible.

16 hours ago, OakTree said:

And special weapons always make things easier, even in easy Fire Emblem games it's not too hard to find use for them, think of literally any sittuation where there is an enemy who needs to be attacked by two units with standard weapons to be taken down but only one if the player uses special weapons and there you go.

Which is assuming that said weapons aren't unusable for whatever reason. Like in Path of Radiance, where you get a Hammer, a Poleax, and an Armorslayer early in the game... except at that point they're so heavy they MURDER your AS. I could also say that's heavily dependent on the game. Like I said in another thread, I don't see much need for brave weapons in Blazing Blade or Sacred Stones because enemy units are weak to the point where they're generally overkill (it doesn't help that in the latter, they are only obtained when endgame is right around the corner). On the other hand, in Sword of Seals, the Brave Axe is practically useless because it's so inaccurate.

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On 5/25/2018 at 11:48 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As it is, I'm a neigh on durability. 

I'm sorry I know I'm being pedantic, and maybe it's just because I'm tired, but it's nay. Neigh is like what a horse does.

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On 26.5.2018 at 6:47 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I would sooner complain about how bad killing edges (and killer weapons, in general) are.

are they so? they may have lower MT, but they deal 4x dmg on crit instead of 3x.

 

On 26.5.2018 at 6:47 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

in Sword of Seals, the Brave Axe is practically useless because it's so inaccurate.

tbf tho, everything that isn't a Sword in FE6 is inaccurate to the point of making the game unplayable

 

 

Edited by Shrimperor
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1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

are they so? they may have lower MT, but they deal 4x dmg on crit instead of 3x.

Yes. They don't have high enough crit to make up for their low might. And x4 damage on a crit does not mean much when even with x3, a crit usually spells the end for the poor sucker who's on the wrong end of it. Basically, situations where it's actually worth gambling on a critical hit over using better options are rare as hen's teeth.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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tbh I think both systems could be done to my satisfaction, but I lean toward bringing back durability. Rationing out the uses on my stronger weapons added to the strategy of some of the older titles, though there were plenty of "too good to use" issues with Prf's and legendary weapons and the like. Awakening came the closest to having a good durability system imo, but the game balance in Awakening was otherwise pretty bad so it didn't matter lol. I believe Awakening had an infinite convoy (it's been a while, though, so I could be wrong about this), so convoy space filling up with 5 use Iron Swords isn't an issue, and hoarding isn't as big of a deal when it doesn't take up all of your convoy space. The Lords also had unbreakable weapons, so there was no "too good to use" factor involved there, and they prevented the player from running out of weapons (not that most players would).

 

On 5/22/2018 at 8:43 PM, Scoot said:

I voted no, but...

I prefer having limited durability to Fates's godawful system. But I never use legendary weapons because I don't want to waste them. ._.

Maybe durability would be more tolerable if, when used up, a weapon would revert to a "broken" state that can't be equipped, but could still be repaired for money. That way you won't have to worry about losing a rare weapon forever.

Strong agree^ This seems like a good fix for a lot of the issues of durability systems in FE. Repairing legendary weapons would allow the player to use them without losing them permanently. The player wouldn't necessarily have to worry about overstocking on weapons, either--you could buy as many as you immediately need and repair them later if they break.

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Weapons should have uses until they become unusable, but I hate it when they break and you lose a rare weapon forever just like that. You should be able to repair the broken thing or restore it's uses for a price, especially if it's a rare weapon early on. Also it would be cool if you can forge weapons like in Fates' except not only does it get stronger, but it also gains more uses until eventually you can make it unbreakable, but only after a lot of dedication to it. 

Edited by Ae†her
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I don't have a lotta time and energy to read through, but....

I know this is bound to be an unpopular opinion, but I think Fates was onto something. CERTAIN weapons, like Javelins/Handaxes, steel weapons, Nosferatu, and a few 'special' weapons like Odin's Grimoire, Iago's Tome, and some other stuff I can't recall offhand were reasonably balanced for having infinite durability, I feel. It's definitely annoying that a lot of the upper-ranked weapons had SO MANY drawbacks, and I definitely feel they tried TOO hard to overcompensate for the lack of durability on a lot of weapons in ways that don't really feel right in one way or another, BUT if anything, Echoes and Heroes have only increased my hope that durability-less weapons can streamline the gameplay and make things more interesting and fun.

I realize that managing the weapon durability IS part of the fun for some people, and to some extent I agree, but a lot of times the issue of weapon durability and managing units' inventories mid-combat gives me a very paralyzing feeling-- like I have to make sure everything's straight constantly, instead of just being able to gear up and go at it like in Heroes, and not having to worry about weapons mid-combat (most of the time) like in Echoes. (Single-slot weapon inventory is another idea I kind of want to see them mess with more, incidentally.)

That's just my take though. Honestly it's hard to see them actually implementing a lot of what I'd like to see since durability is such a core mechanic of the franchise, but those are my feels on it. 

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On 5/29/2018 at 10:19 PM, BANRYU said:

I don't have a lotta time and energy to read through, but....

I know this is bound to be an unpopular opinion, but I think Fates was onto something. CERTAIN weapons, like Javelins/Handaxes, steel weapons, Nosferatu, and a few 'special' weapons like Odin's Grimoire, Iago's Tome, and some other stuff I can't recall offhand were reasonably balanced for having infinite durability, I feel. It's definitely annoying that a lot of the upper-ranked weapons had SO MANY drawbacks, and I definitely feel they tried TOO hard to overcompensate for the lack of durability on a lot of weapons in ways that don't really feel right in one way or another, BUT if anything, Echoes and Heroes have only increased my hope that durability-less weapons can streamline the gameplay and make things more interesting and fun.

I realize that managing the weapon durability IS part of the fun for some people, and to some extent I agree, but a lot of times the issue of weapon durability and managing units' inventories mid-combat gives me a very paralyzing feeling-- like I have to make sure everything's straight constantly, instead of just being able to gear up and go at it like in Heroes, and not having to worry about weapons mid-combat (most of the time) like in Echoes. (Single-slot weapon inventory is another idea I kind of want to see them mess with more, incidentally.)

That's just my take though. Honestly it's hard to see them actually implementing a lot of what I'd like to see since durability is such a core mechanic of the franchise, but those are my feels on it. 

I mean having to deal with limited weapon uses in battle is a challenge, and it actually stops you from abusing powerful weapons forever, while at the same time being able to have them. It gives a lot more freedom to make enemies more difficult and more freedom for the player to choose how to deal with them. The problem comes in when you lose that item forever because it breaks in battle, and that shouldn't happen.

If the weapon dies in battle you should be able to repair it at different prices, depending on how powerful the weapon is. The game shouldn't allow you to have heavy gold farming without DLCs too for this mechanic.

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18 hours ago, Ae†her said:

I mean having to deal with limited weapon uses in battle is a challenge, and it actually stops you from abusing powerful weapons forever, while at the same time being able to have them. It gives a lot more freedom to make enemies more difficult and more freedom for the player to choose how to deal with them. The problem comes in when you lose that item forever because it breaks in battle, and that shouldn't happen.

If the weapon dies in battle you should be able to repair it at different prices, depending on how powerful the weapon is. The game shouldn't allow you to have heavy gold farming without DLCs too for this mechanic.

My personal preference would be to simply make legendary weapons difficult to obtain, a la FE6 so that acquiring them in itself is something of an achievement, and a reward as a result. Additionally or alternatively, requiring a LOT of limited resources to obtain them like in Echoes is another option for obtaining powerful (if not legendary) weapons. A LOT of FE games in the past 10 years or so have followed the pattern of just dropping those weapons into your lap, where the only real sense of accomplishment tied to them is in having units with a high-enough weapon rank to use them (the 3DS games in particular trivialized this even more, to the point where legendary weapons are basically only distinguishable by their scarcity ~___~ ....debatably)

Echoes in particular had a really interesting balance with its weapons, where it's unlikely that you'll have every type of weapon in one playthrough (like my instinct is to do), so it requires you to prioiritize accordingly, which is interesting. 

 

All that said, I DO think it would be nice if they gave us back the whole FE4/5 'broken weapons can be reforged/repaired' system, so I definitely wouldn't object to that nor do I think it's necessarily mutually disclusive with my above suggestions. 

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21 hours ago, BANRYU said:

My personal preference would be to simply make legendary weapons difficult to obtain, a la FE6 so that acquiring them in itself is something of an achievement, and a reward as a result. Additionally or alternatively, requiring a LOT of limited resources to obtain them like in Echoes is another option for obtaining powerful (if not legendary) weapons. A LOT of FE games in the past 10 years or so have followed the pattern of just dropping those weapons into your lap, where the only real sense of accomplishment tied to them is in having units with a high-enough weapon rank to use them (the 3DS games in particular trivialized this even more, to the point where legendary weapons are basically only distinguishable by their scarcity ~___~ ....debatably)

Echoes in particular had a really interesting balance with its weapons, where it's unlikely that you'll have every type of weapon in one playthrough (like my instinct is to do), so it requires you to prioiritize accordingly, which is interesting. 

 

All that said, I DO think it would be nice if they gave us back the whole FE4/5 'broken weapons can be reforged/repaired' system, so I definitely wouldn't object to that nor do I think it's necessarily mutually disclusive with my above suggestions. 

You can make it hard to obtain legendary weapons, and keep them infinitely durable or not. It doesn't mean you can't have durability for other weapons. Weapons like Shurikens should seriously be limited in use because they give the option to attack from 1-2 range, as well as magic. You don't have to be forced to make weapons stupidly flawed, like a steel weapon giving -3 Spd. 

Echoes has an interesting system, but I personally don't like it because it feels too limiting, and it's also really different than what every other game has had. I'm a Fire Emblem conservative I guess you could say, and I like the standard durability system, but I still do want that one specific thing changed to make it even better, which is ensuring weapons aren't gone forever when they break.

It also makes sense realistically because edges and points become dull after multiple use in battle, and need to be resharpened or reinforced. Magic from tomes is exhausted due to the user's mana or words in the book I guess, and you can only carry so many daggers.

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If durability goes then something needs to replace in terms of difficulty. As it stands Fire Emblem games are too easy/devoid of difficult choices. Having to decide whether or not to use that single silver sword you have adds a fun layer to the game. But if I'm overruled and durability is removed, then something needs to replace it so the game doesn't just get easier.

There should be difficult choices. If there is no durability and upper tier weapons are auto-use, then that's a flaw in the game. Without durability there needs to be incentives to use iron weapons and deterrents to using more powerful weapons like silver/killer etc. weapons. Whether that is a weight system or something else, I don't know.

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