Cipher OCs in Heroes?

[Ice Dragon]

15 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Note all the Thracia characters added are in Genealogy also, other than Olwen/Reinhardt.

That's kind of what happens when the main characters of FE5 are all characters who exist in FE4.

What the hell were you expecting? Six FE5-exclusive characters and have Leaf, Nanna, and Finn get pushed back even later?

 

15 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Also Cipher is also unknown to global audience, but probably much more so than Thracia.

Knowing nothing but a game's name and the fact that it exists is about as meaningful as not knowing it exists at all.

 

15 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Cipher original heroes would be a hard sell to anyone who isn't familiar with them, which would be most outside Japan.

Again, four of the seven are playable characters in Echoes.

 

5 hours ago, Vince777 said:

there's an increasing emphasis on alts now

The last new character banner had zero alts as long as you don't count Ares as a Black Knight, Zelgius, Camus, and Eldigan alt simultaneously. Limited banners are being released at the same frequency as last year so far. Legendary Hero banners don't affect the schedule for other banners.

I'm not seeing any increase other than the up-tick from no to yes from nearly half a year ago now.

[Vince777]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

The last new character banner had zero alts as long as you don't count Ares as a Black Knight, Zelgius, Camus, and Eldigan alt simultaneously. Limited banners are being released at the same frequency as last year so far. Legendary Hero banners don't affect the schedule for other banners.

I'm not seeing any increase other than the up-tick from no to yes from nearly half a year ago now.

They were in the last few banners. 

As for the last one, you're usually the one reminding people that one does not trend make. 

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Again, four of the seven are playable characters in Echoes.

And they are much appreciated there! Well Shade and Randal are at least. SoV's tiny cast and ability to field everyone makes the addition of four PCs significant. Shade's Physic and Rescue are never not wanted and Seraphim is good, and Randal is basically Mathilda (so very good) except with dirt Luck (a problem I can Turnwheel away), and able to be recruited earlier or by Celica. 

Emma, well I thank her for her Lance, but otherwise she isn't terribly good, not bad, just lacking for stats. Yuzu... I know why you're a Priestess, only female sword class and all, but your lack of move kills your ability in that role, and your spells are practically nonexistent, so you're poor unless Pitchforked, but then that breaks her like everybody else.

 

5 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

They were in the last few banners. 

As for the last one, you're usually the one reminding people that one does not trend make. 

But IS has been listening to the FEH fanbase, otherwise why else would there have been the rarity drop? They've remained fairly attentive to altering the metagame and taking in player criticisms it seems. Perhaps the no-alt FE4 Gen 2 banner is the first of multiple to come without alts? Maybe Gleipnirika complaints were so loud they destroyed the hearing in the left ear of somebody at IS and they immediately decided that the next possible banner that hadn't proceeded beyond the malleability point, the Gen 2 Genealogy one, would have to be alt-free? We don't know, but it could be.

 

I'd be fine with a one version of the less than ten(?) Cipher OCs getting in, but no more than that.

I'd rather have the TMS 7 PCs + Uta-loid Tiki get in first though. And once one or the other of Cipher and TMS gets in, I think that'll crack the door open on the other getting in, since both are non-SRPG spinoffs of the franchise with comparable in size character rosters to add. Atlus might have a say in TMS, but I don't see why they'd object to TMS's inclusion.

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

They were in the last few banners. 

But there has been no increase, which is what you specifically said.

Each of those banners had exactly 2 brand new characters with none of them having fewer. The one banner with more than 1 alt expanded the banner size to 4 to accommodate without decreasing the number of new characters. And then we got a banner with 3 brand new characters.

 

12 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

As for the last one, you're usually the one reminding people that one does not trend make. 

I have no idea how that is relevant other than as an attempt to shoehorn my words back at me in an irrelevant situation.

You're the one who asserted the existence of a trend. I'm the one telling you there isn't one. And "one data point doesn't make a trend" is irrelevant when we clearly have several data points, with the data not giving any indication of an upward, steady, or downward trend. (Though it's enough to be able to make an educated prediction that it will either remain steady or fall downward and not increase further.)

[Corrobin]

Whoa, guys, chill, it's just an question that I thought would be interesting, you don't have to get so angry about it.

[Vince777]

48 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Perhaps the no-alt FE4 Gen 2 banner is the first of multiple to come without alts? Maybe Gleipnirika complaints were so loud they destroyed the hearing in the left ear of somebody at IS and they immediately decided that the next possible banner that hadn't proceeded beyond the malleability point, the Gen 2 Genealogy one, would have to be alt-free? We don't know, but it could be.

 

I hope so. That would be wonderful.

It could also be that alternates are just very polarizing. Maybe they lead to a lot of complaints but also still higher revenues. I wonder what they'd do in this case but I would assume they'd stick with the business model that rakes in the most money. I was under the impression alternates worked for them (minus perhaps the last Lyn one).  

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Vince777 said:

It could also be that alternates are just very polarizing. Maybe they lead to a lot of complaints but also still higher revenues. I wonder what they'd do in this case but I would assume they'd stick with the business model that rakes in the most money. I was under the impression alternates worked for them (minus perhaps the last Lyn one).

Looking at Youtube "likes", there is no significant difference between the recent Japanese banner videos. The English banner videos have a very noticeable dip for World of Thracia only, but it's hard to tell if it's due to the banner having two alts or the characters just being complete unknowns to a Western audience (and without Lene's and Ishtar's boobs to keep it afloat).

Indifference and dislike are indistinguishable from each other in terms of orb spending (in either case, players simply save for the next banner they like), so the giant piles of dislikes on some banners are pretty much meaningless from a revenue standpoint. All it does is increase the amount of hate mail the PR team has to sort through.

[Lemmy]

I would pull Shade if she was released, as long as I don’t find her too redundant.

[Lewyn]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's kind of what happens when the main characters of FE5 are all characters who exist in FE4.

What the hell were you expecting? Six FE5-exclusive characters and have Leaf, Nanna, and Finn get pushed back even later?

 

Knowing nothing but a game's name and the fact that it exists is about as meaningful as not knowing it exists at all.

 

Again, four of the seven are playable characters in Echoes.

 

The last new character banner had zero alts as long as you don't count Ares as a Black Knight, Zelgius, Camus, and Eldigan alt simultaneously. Limited banners are being released at the same frequency as last year so far. Legendary Hero banners don't affect the schedule for other banners.

I'm not seeing any increase other than the up-tick from no to yes from nearly half a year ago now.

I was not.  My point is that Leif, Nanna, Finn are all characters in the much better known and better selling FE4 Genealogy of the Holy War.  So can't really use the argument that Thracia is just as obscure as Cipher for that.  

Also Thracia is part of the main series.  Cipher is a spinoff like Warriors.  It would be much less warmly received.  A card game exclusive character only in Japan on a banner?  

3 hours ago, Vince777 said:

I hope so. That would be wonderful.

It could also be that alternates are just very polarizing. Maybe they lead to a lot of complaints but also still higher revenues. I wonder what they'd do in this case but I would assume they'd stick with the business model that rakes in the most money. I was under the impression alternates worked for them (minus perhaps the last Lyn one).  

Probably.  I'm glad they haven't tarnished my favorite game of the series with alts.  I mean we'll see if the trend continues.  Hopefully this dark period of history of alts invading new hero banners is finished.  

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

My point is that Leif, Nanna, Finn are all characters in the much better known and better selling FE4 Genealogy of the Holy War.

Which officially sold zero copies in the West because it was never released.

Casual players may know of the existence of the Japan-exclusive games, but most probably don't know anything about who appears in the game, and Heroes banners are driven by the characters chosen for the banner, not the game chosen for the banner.

 

10 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

A card game exclusive character only in Japan on a banner?  

Again, four of Cipher's seven original characters have been playable in a main-series game released in the West.

[Lewyn]

58 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which officially sold zero copies in the West because it was never released.

Casual players may know of the existence of the Japan-exclusive games, but most probably don't know anything about who appears in the game, and Heroes banners are driven by the characters chosen for the banner, not the game chosen for the banner.

 

Again, four of Cipher's seven original characters have been playable in a main-series game released in the West.

As DLC characters.  In Awakening Leif, Seliph Roy and Katarina from Japan only Fire Emblems are in the game as DLC not to mention many more from those games appear as enemies in the bonus maps.  Oh and at the time of release Gaiden was still Japan only, Celica and Alm are DLC characters as well. 

Response has generally been favorable to characters from Japan only games in banners, cause at least they are from the main series.  Cause perhaps these games will reach the US shores some day as Echoes remakes.  Cause they are also playable translation patches for the game.  On the other hand, Cipher is a card game and if you don't know Japanese you have no way of experiencing it in any form.  

[C. Turtle]

7 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

As DLC characters.  In Awakening Leif, Seliph Roy and Katarina from Japan only Fire Emblems are in the game as DLC not to mention many more from those games appear as enemies in the bonus maps.  Oh and at the time of release Gaiden was still Japan only, Celica and Alm are DLC characters as well. 

Response has generally been favorable to characters from Japan only games in banners, cause at least they are from the main series.  Cause perhaps these games will reach the US shores some day as Echoes remakes.  Cause they are also playable translation patches for the game.  On the other hand, Cipher is a card game and if you don't know Japanese you have no way of experiencing it in any form.  

English fan translations exist for (to my knowledge) every card currently on the market, and I believe there's also a LackeyCCG plugin that allows you to play the game digitally, complete with English descriptions for all of the cards. If a rom with a translation patch is a valid way of experiencing a Japan exclusive game, then I think that's just as valid a way of experiencing Cipher.

Edited May 25, 2018 by C. Turtle

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

As DLC characters.  In Awakening Leif, Seliph Roy and Katarina from Japan only Fire Emblems are in the game as DLC not to mention many more from those games appear as enemies in the bonus maps.  Oh and at the time of release Gaiden was still Japan only, Celica and Alm are DLC characters as well. 

And the fact that they are DLC characters is relevant why?

The price tag of a cup of coffee separating the player and being able to play using those characters is somehow sufficiently insurmountable of an awareness barrier that players would be completely unaware of their existence?

Seeing them in the DLC shop is somehow not enough exposure to at least make the name and face memorable when seen again on a Heroes banner?

Being a DLC character from an unknown main series game is somehow different than being a DLC character from an unknown spin-off card game?

Do you think casual players would care enough about what game Yuzu, Emma, Shade, and Randal originate from to differentiate them from Seliph or Katarina?

 

17 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Response has generally been favorable to characters from Japan only games in banners, cause at least they are from the main series.

Please back up this claim with evidence so that you can prove you're not pulling this from out your ass.

[Lewyn]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

And the fact that they are DLC characters is relevant why?

The price tag of a cup of coffee separating the player and being able to play using those characters is somehow sufficiently insurmountable of an awareness barrier that players would be completely unaware of their existence?

Seeing them in the DLC shop is somehow not enough exposure to at least make the name and face memorable when seen again on a Heroes banner?

Being a DLC character from an unknown main series game is somehow different than being a DLC character from an unknown spin-off card game?

Do you think casual players would care enough about what game Yuzu, Emma, Shade, and Randal originate from to differentiate them from Seliph or Katarina?

 

Please back up this claim with evidence so that you can prove you're not pulling this from out your ass.

Being a DLC character is relevant cause they are add ons that most people forget compared to the non DLC ones.  

As for evidence.  Well we are all pulling stuff out of our ass, you are claiming that there is no difference between Japan only FE characters from the main game and Cipher characters in terms of potential.  Can't ask for evidence if you can't provide any yourself.  

[Lewyn]

1 hour ago, C. Turtle said:

English fan translations exist for (to my knowledge) every card currently on the market, and I believe there's also a LackeyCCG plugin that allows you to play the game digitally, complete with English descriptions for all of the cards. If a rom with a translation patch is a valid way of experiencing a Japan exclusive game, then I think that's just as valid a way of experiencing Cipher.

Going through English fan translations looking up all these cards online as you are playing or whatever, very few people are willing to do that.  There are many Japan only games that never get a patch but have someone who has translated the text and posted it online, it is incredibly tedious to play this way which is why most won't bother.  However if there is a plugin that lets you play digitally and translates the cards also, well that is a better comparison.  I did not know this, and am very interested, where can I find more info?

[C. Turtle]

23 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Going through English fan translations looking up all these cards online as you are playing or whatever, very few people are willing to do that.  There are many Japan only games that never get a patch but have someone who has translated the text and posted it online, it is incredibly tedious to play this way which is why most won't bother.  However if there is a plugin that lets you play digitally and translates the cards also, well that is a better comparison.  I did not know this, and am very interested, where can I find more info?

Here's the thread about it on the Cipher forum, as well as the page about it on Wiki (which is also linked in the thread)

https://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Lackey_CCG

I can't vouch for its ease of use, considering I haven't done much with it myself, but it exists.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Cause they are also playable translation patches for the game.

How many fans actually know how to, are fine with, and have played an emulated game? First, you have the people who don't know anything about these, then the people who find emulation illegal, and then you have the totally technologically inept.

The only reason it seems like there is a sizable number of people who have played the emulation is because we're on a dedicated FE fansite. Without any evidence to back it, in the sea of mostly silent and not online forum-going players of FE, greatly widened by Afatening, maybe 10% have emulated? Not very many I would imagine.

[Lewyn]

1 hour ago, C. Turtle said:

Here's the thread about it on the Cipher forum, as well as the page about it on Wiki (which is also linked in the thread)

https://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Lackey_CCG

I can't vouch for its ease of use, considering I haven't done much with it myself, but it exists.

Thanks!  I may check this out eventually, nice to know there is at least a way to play it if one doesn't know Japanese.

23 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

How many fans actually know how to, are fine with, and have played an emulated game? First, you have the people who don't know anything about these, then the people who find emulation illegal, and then you have the totally technologically inept.

The only reason it seems like there is a sizable number of people who have played the emulation is because we're on a dedicated FE fansite. Without any evidence to back it, in the sea of mostly silent and not online forum-going players of FE, greatly widened by Afatening, maybe 10% have emulated? Not very many I would imagine.

Quite a lot actually.  Binding blade and Genealogy have been played with english patch for long time by many people.  No way to know the exact number of course.