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Anyone else miss fog of war?


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I know fog of war has a pretty bad reputation among a lot of the fanbase, but honestly I miss it. It added a lot of atmosphere to the levels it was used in, especially the defense maps set at night, and made them creepier. And I also enjoyed the added utility it gave to thieves. And I think the major flaws it had, namely making certain punishing enemies impossible to see coming for a first-time player, could be fixed with added features like bringing back those fixed torches from the Tellius series and adding in some more means of gathering intelligence about what's hiding in the darkness.

I dunno, I just really hope the feature isn't gone forever, because a lot of my clearest memories of the older games involved fog of war maps. Battle Before Dawn, for all its faults, was a huge deal to me when I was a kid, and the Rausten defense map from the end of Sacred Stones and the early game siege of the Greil Mercenary base are some of the most memorable levels for me and I loved them a lot.

Is there anyone else out there for whom fog of war meant anything other than frustration and annoyance?

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Yeah, I actually enjoyed the atmosphere of a lot of fog of war chapters and I'm kind of sad they've been missing for a while (unless you count that one Revelations map). The only thing I hope for if they do return is to add in Advance Wars style mechanics so that the player can work with the limited visibility.

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50/50, It was a fun gimmick and I'd be fine with it coming back, but I'd like the enemies to actually listen to the rules of fog of war too. Nothing is more frustrating than a random Batista shooting you when there is nothing else around you for 10 tiles in every directions.

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As long as they don't hide a random guy with a poleaxe at the end of a level in the fog of war I'm fine with it coming back. It was cool, but also not cool when that kind of tomfoolery was afoot.

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Fog of War is bullshit because it only affects the player. The enemy is completely unaffected by it. Fog of War needs to be better balanced if they want to bring it back.

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I would like seeing it come back, personally i never had much trouble with it myself even if it gave the enemies an unfair advantage but if it does come back it probably would be for the best to balance it a bit to atleast make it feel like the enemy doesnt know where you are either (ie, maybe have a ghost outline or something of how far the enemy can see when they enter your field of view to give the player some indication of how the enemy might act like they wont target a specific unit by sortta blindly charge or if you place a unit in their field of view they wont charge say a weaker unit nearby but the unit in their field of view)

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I like Fog of War in other games, but honestly I don't really have any Fog of War memories from Fire Emblem.

In a game like FE5 for example, all the fog of war maps are gaidens and most of them feature indoor maps, so you are in a corrider anyway, and it doesn't add much to make thingseither  easier or harder. 

I feel like a lot of the GBA gaiden maps were for "forest maps" which have a similiar problem - because your units only move 3-4 spaces due to the terrain, seeing where you are going is kind of less relevant (there are exceptions, especially when flier enemies are in the fog, but this was my overall impression.

Honestly, I remmeber FE fog of war more for being forgettable than being annoying or anything.

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I would like to see fog of war return, it's a shame that after shadow dragon multiplayer got it right, every following game never even bothered, fate's multiplayer would have benefited greatly from fog of war, and an alternate objective to keep people moving.

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It works in Advance Wars, because if you lose a shiny new Medium Tank to hidden enemy Rocket, it isn't a reset, it is in FE.

If FoW does come back, it needs to be updated to the rules of Advance Wars: Days of Ruin.:

  1. The enemy also abides by FoW, if they can't see you, they can't attack you. 
  2. Moving a unit reveals all within that unit's vision range that they pass by, so move a Pally 8 spaces in straight line, and assuming a vision range of 2, you suddenly have a huge line of battlefield revealed.

Hiding places like in AW should not be, or if they are, much more judiciously than they are in DoR, which went a little crazy with them (although it does have the Flare unit). Or making hiding in certain terrain a unit skill like in Berwick. RD torches on the map would also be appreciated. Modifying individual unit vision range based on class wouldn't be really bad nor really good, but different.

And of course, IS just shouldn't be obnoxious with what they hide on the map. Don't hide a Killer Axe Berserker or the like every five spaces.

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9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

And of course, IS just shouldn't be obnoxious with what they hide on the map. Don't hide a Killer Axe Berserker or the like every five spaces.

Did they ever do anything that crazy? What was the most unfair thing they ever hid in the fog?

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1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Did they ever do anything that crazy? What was the most unfair thing they ever hid in the fog?

Okay, they never did that, I was just making up an extreme example to prove a point.

I'm not quite sure what the worse thing they ever did was. FE6 C14 has all those Manaketes, but the sands keep them in check. Maybe the Phantom Ship Deathgoyle boss reinforcement that shows up just a little too early right behind the starting ship where for safety's sake you may have a few squishes just waiting to be backstabbed?

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I don't care whether it stays gone or comes back. While it does enhance the atmosphere in some scenarios and requires the player to take countermeasures, it can be frustrating on first runs or in certain chapters (looking at you, FE12 20x).

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Okay, they never did that, I was just making up an extreme example to prove a point.

I'm not quite sure what the worse thing they ever did was. FE6 C14 has all those Manaketes, but the sands keep them in check. Maybe the Phantom Ship Deathgoyle boss reinforcement that shows up just a little too early right behind the starting ship where for safety's sake you may have a few squishes just waiting to be backstabbed?

Siege weapons (especially mobile siege weapons) are the absolute worst things you can combine with Fog of War. Ursula in BBD, the Iron Ballista Sniper in FFO, and the twin Bolting Sages in FE6 20S come to mind.

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I'm glad it's gone and hope it stays a thing of the past. It's just plain obnoxious. Depriving the player of information they need to strategize is nothing but a dick move of the highest order.

27 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Did they ever do anything that crazy? What was the most unfair thing they ever hid in the fog?

I'd echo long-range units, like the aforementioned Ursula. Also, the Phantom Ship Deathgoyle.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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Oh boy, I get to copy-paste a post of mine

N O

FoW is a garbage mechanic the way it has been done in Fire Emblem in the past.  It's just incredibly unfair to the player, but can be easily exploited with outside resources telling you where enemies are (or where they start)... unless the enemy units actually move in the fog.

Point is, it's an unbalanced mechanic that offers no fun challenge.

Edit: Also, Fog of War still manages to show up from time to time.  The ice-breaking level of Fates is like a pseudo-FoW map, and the first chapter of Revelation after the split is literally Fog of War except you can actually see the boss for some reason (probably so that you know where to go).  Neither of those maps are good.

Edited by Ertrick36
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3 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Also, Fog of War still manages to show up from time to time.  The ice-breaking level of Fates is like a pseudo-FoW map, and the first chapter of Revelation after the split is literally Fog of War except you can actually see the boss for some reason (probably so that you know where to go).  Neither of those maps are good.

Revelation is hardly the model of good map design.

And Chapter 7 there isn't so much FoW, as it is how FEs 3-10 had indoor maps where you couldn't see into rooms whose doors you haven't opened. Of course, Awakening also abandoned this, and so did Rev, for the most part. The one exception being that stealth chapter, whose final door is awful since a Locktouch unit is likely fragile, if you stealth it, you probably won't have anyone nearby to go in front of them as protection, and the enemies on the other side could easily kill the Locktouch unit. More bad Rev design.

In prior games, well I do recall PoR hiding a Killer user a few times behind a door, but nothing too egregious, though PoR Maniac does hide some siege tomers during the Ena battle, and all difficulties during the Nados battle, but they're spaced out a good bit here.

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I don't miss it, but wouldn't mind it coming back, either. With some proper adjustments (like the enemy also having to follow its rules) done first, of course.

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I'd like to have FOW come back, but with a complete overhaul. Make it basically the same as Advance Wars where both sides have to follow the ground rules of one. Other rules that should be incorporated are:

  • Torches can enhance the holder's line of sight, but will also give away the position of the holder and the surrounding visible units to the enemy. Torch staves work the same way, except the enemy remains in the dark (both literally and figuratively; no pun intended) about the stave user's location.
  • There are other torches, bonfires etc that are part of the terrain that gives visibility to both the player and the enemy. Similarly, a Flare Stave can be used to light up a specific location and surrounds too.
  • Some long-range magic may give away the attacker's position.
  • Units with higher luck have higher chance in getting a "hunch" - that is they correctly suspect that an enemy (within 6-10 spaces) is located in a specific location in the fog.
  • Some new skills where a unit can perceive the general direction of where enemy units are located. (whether from sound etc). The higher the skill level, the more accurate the info obtainable.

Basically, make the FOW more strategic and less luck-based.

Edited by henrymidfields
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The idea of fog of war was nice, but the way it was used was horrible, and I'm not going to miss it in Fire Emblem games. My point is: You can't see the enemy, but your enemy can see you and they can attack you anyway.

I bet noone have completed a fog of war map on first try in difficult mode.

I can only bring up GBA experience only. Binding Blade. Do I need to say more than Chapter 14? You couldn't move because of the desert, and couldn't see anything. Yet the enemy team was consistent of fast and strong flying and mage units. On top of that status staves from range you don't understand how they could see and hit you. Chapter 19 Ilia route. Appareantly the enemy can still hit you with a ballista from the other end of the map. Moving on to Blazing Sword for some nice examples. Dread Isle. You do bring Florina so you can recruit Fiora. But if you move to the wrong spot a Nomad run up to you from nowhere and kill her. Battle before Dawn? Everyone got screwed from Ursula with her asshole Bolting tome. On top of that she's in a different spot on Eliwood and Hector mode. Finally Sacred Stones. I didn't play this one much, but Chapter 6 is a map where you are on a time limit if you want to save the villagers. But if you move you get 10 enemy units in your face. Also the reinforcements are a pain in the ass.

I might be ok with all of these maps, but because of the unfair advantage of what the AI has, these maps are just bad. At least without the fog of war I'd now what formation should I take for defense next turn. It's a No for fog of war, thank you very much.

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