What exactly was the root cause of the overall improvement in growth rates?

[Corrobin]

I wonder why the average growth rates for most units improved so much over the early games.

[BrightBow]

I would imagine for the same reason every game these days needs to have "RPG elements": People like to see numbers go up. It's simple to do, yet very addictive.

Edited May 31, 2018 by BrightBow

[Dismissed]

It's because of stat inflation. Back in FE1/FE3, 20 was the cap so everyone's growths sucked. Some units didn't even promote. In the GBA and DS games, 30 was the effective cap, so everyone had slightly better growths than in FE1/FE3. Tellius and the 3DS games (except Echoes) had massive stat inflation (and FE10 had third-tier classes), so growths were improved upon so units would still be viable. Personally, I dislike stat inflation because it leads to a scenario where everyone's super, so nobody is.

Also, developers back then had no concept of balance.

[Light Strategist]

2 hours ago, BrightBow said:

I would imagine for the same reason every game these days needs to have "RPG elements": People like to see numbers go up. It's simple to do, yet very addictive.

It really is. Heck, I just like the sound effects of the stat increases in Awakening and Warriors. It's strangely soothing...

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, BrightBow said:

I would imagine for the same reason every game these days needs to have "RPG elements": People like to see numbers go up. It's simple to do, yet very addictive.

 

1 hour ago, Purple Mage said:

It's because of stat inflation. Back in FE1/FE3, 20 was the cap so everyone's growths sucked. Some units didn't even promote. In the GBA and DS games, 30 was the effective cap, so everyone had slightly better growths than in FE1/FE3. Tellius and the 3DS games (except Echoes) had massive stat inflation (and FE10 had third-tier classes), so growths were improved upon so units would still be viable. Personally, I dislike stat inflation because it leads to a scenario where everyone's super, so nobody is.

Both of these. 

Though I'd argue 

1 hour ago, Purple Mage said:

Also, developers back then had no concept of balance.

That this is as true now as it was then. The insane growth rates of everyone I. Awakening/Fates is just about as bad as the pitiful growths in FE1-3. There's just a bit more to consider than raw stats these days, but that's a whole different can of worms when it comes to balance/a-lack-thereof. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Slumber

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, BrightBow said:

I would imagine for the same reason every game these days needs to have "RPG elements": People like to see numbers go up. It's simple to do, yet very addictive.

I'll agree, people like big flashy numbers going up. To see 5 out of 8 instead of 3 on average is more fun, if not necessarily so balanced (though Conquest handles high stats well). Honestly, I'd like things to go back down to 30 as the normal max promoted growable non-HP cap, but that isn't really relevant here.

 

I have some Growth Rate Totals data assembled (everything up to RD, I also have post-RD, but it's a bit more complicated due to class growths), it shows the trend of how things went:

Spoiler

FE GRT SD

Marth: 350 Caeda: 400 Jagen: 40 Cain: 370

Abel: 340 Draug: 210 Gordin: 230 Wrys: 60

Ogma: 300 Barst: 360 Bord: 300 Cord: 320

Castor: 270 Darros: 220 Julian: 360 Lena: 90

Navarre: 310 Merric: 310 Mathis: 250 Hardin: 310

Wolf: 260 Sedgar: 210 Roshea: 230 Vyland: 200

Wendel: 240 Rickard: 240 Bantu: 30 Caesar: 220

Radd: 350 Roger: 280 Jeorge: 180 Maria: 120

Minerva: 290 Linde: 370 Jake: 260 Midia: 290

Dolph: 270 Macellan: 170 Tomas: 190 Boah: 60

Beck: 220 Astram: 300 Palla: 290 Catria: 410

Arran: 270 Samson: 270 Xane: 250 Est: 410

Tiki: 470 Lorenz: 330 Elice: 390 Gotoh: 390

 

FE GRT G

Gaiden growth rates totals (all of a character’s growth rates added together, suggests the average number of stat ups a character should get per level)

Alm: 205 Celica: 185

Ruka: 145 Grey: 130

Robin: 135 Cliff: 220

Silk: 150 Clea: 200

Clerbe: 140 Fols: 130

Paison: 150 Ryuto: 170

Machilda: 170 Dute: 170

Teeta: 140 Zeke: 210

Mycen: 40 May: 120

Boey: 155 Jenny: 155

Sevr: 150 Valbo: 150

Kamui: 155 Leo: 140

Palla: 145 Catria: 170

Atlas: 125 Jessey: 190

Sonia: 180 Deen: 110

Est: 250 Norma: 70

 

 

FE GRT ME B1

Marth: 363 Caeda: 403 Jagen: 43 Cain: 373

Abel: 343 Draug: 213 Gordin: 233 Ogma: 313

Barst: 363 Bord: 303 Cord: 233 Castor: 273

Julian: 403 Lena: 213 Navarre: 343 Hardin: 343

Wolf: 273 Sedgar: 213 Roshea: 323 Vyland: 203

Mathis: 253 Merric: 333 Rickard: 273 Wendel: 243

Bantu: 23 Caesar: 213 Radd: 363 Maria: 163

Minerva: 293 Linde: 353 Jeorge: 183 Midia: 293

Dolph: 273 Macellan: 173 Tomas: 193 Boah: 73

Palla: 293 Catria: 413 Astram: 303 Arran: 273

Samson: 273 Xane: 213 Tiki: 403 Est: 413

Lorenz: 333 Elice: 353

 

All Star-sphere Shards offer a net gain of 40 to a character’s GRT

The Star-sphere offers a net gain of 240 to a character’s GRT

 

 

FE GRT ME B2

Marth: 363 Cecil: 313 Luke: 263 Rody: 333

Ryan: 303 Gordin: 243 Draug: 233 Arran: 63

Malicia: 253 Catria: 403 Warren: 243 Linde: 353

Palla: 283 Julian: 403 Mathis: 253 Ogma: 323

Yumina: 233 Yubello: 283 Sirius: 323 Castor: 273

Caeda: 403 Rickard: 273 Samto: 233 Wendel: 243

Navarre: 343 Feena: 423 Cain: 373 Bantu: 23

Jeorge: 183 Minerva: 293 Merric: 353 Ellerean: 283

Xane: 213 Tiki: 273 Abel: 343 Est: 413

Astram: 303 Sheema: 383 Samson: 273 Roshea: 323

Midia: 293 Lena: 133 Maria: 163 Nyna: 93

Elice: 313

 

All Star-sphere Shards offer a net gain of 40 to a character’s GRT

The Star-sphere offers a net gain of 240 to a character’s GRT

 

 

FE GRT GHWG1

Growth Rates Totals 1st Generation (Includes Holy Blood bonuses)

Sigurd: 330 Noish: 240 Alec: 240

Arden: 230 Quan: 300 Ethlyn: 205

Finn: 260 Lex: 250 Azel: 240

Midayle: 210 Adean: 255 Dew: 270

Ayra: 240 Deidre: 270 Jamke: 255

Holyn: 310 Raquesis: 215 Lewyn: 310

Sylvia: 190 Fury: 190 Beowulf: 245

Briggid: 285 Claude: 290 Tiltyu: 240

 

Averaged GRT: 252.9167

 

 

FE GRT GHWG2

Growth Rates Totals 2nd Generation Fixed Characters and Substitutes

Seliph: 440 Mana: 190 Radney: 255

Roddlevan: 250 Oifaye: 305 Tristan: 260

Dimna: 270 Julia: 340 Femina: 225

Amid: 300 Johan: 300 Johalva: 285

Shanan: 320 Daisy: 210 Leif: 377

Janne: 230 Ares: 395 Laylea: 190

Linda: 260 Asaello: 260 Hawk: 210

Hannibal: 280 Sharlow: 240 Altenna: 404

 

One set of popular pairings:

Lewyn!Ced: 405 Lewyn!Fee: 345

Azel!Arthur: 430 Azel!Tinny: 405

Beowulf!Delmud: 377 Beowulf!Nanna: 337

Claude!Corple: 360 Claude!Leen: 335

Lex!Ulster: 394 Lex!Larcei: 389

Midayle!Lester: 392  Midayle!Lana: 374

Holyn!Faval: 502 Holyn!Patty: 414

 

 

FE GRT T776

Leif: 273 Finn: 251 Othin: 287 Halvan: 267

Evayle: 116 Dagdar: 96 Tania: 317 Marty: 302

Ronan: 240 Saphy: 220 Lara: 323 Rifis: 212 Machua: 287

Brighton: 231 Felgus: 276 Karin: 297 Dalsin: 252

Asvel: 287 Nanna: 241 Hicks: 306 Shiva: 317

Carrion: 341 Selphina: 241 Kein: 326 Alva: 336

Robert: 346 Fred: 311 Olwen: 336 Marita: 388

Salem: 222 Pahn: 332 Trewd: 322 Tina: 288

Glade: 271 Dean: 316 Eda: 271 Homer: 328

Linoan: 285 Ralph: 236 Eyrios: 336 Sleuf: 245

Misha: 346 Sara: 338 Shanam: 222 Miranda: 317

Xavier: 336 Amalda: 336 Conomore: 281  Delmudd: 347

Saias: 247 Ced: 416 Galzus: 336

 

All Scrolls offer a net gain of 30 to a character’s GRT

 

 

FE GRT BB

Roy: 325 Marcus: 185 Allen: 290

Lance: 285 Wolt: 280 Bors: 285

Merlinus: 325 Ellen: 280 Dieck: 270

Wade: 270 Lott: 260 Thany: 285

Chad: 365 Lugh: 270 Clarine: 275

Rutger: 290 Saul: 270 Dorothy: 290

Sue: 280 Zealot: 200 Treck: 255

Noah: 260 Astohl: 270 Lilina: 270

Wendy: 290 Barth: 267 Oujay: 290

Fir: 290 Shin: 270 Gonzales: 280

Geese: 275 Klein: 270 Tate: 275

Lalum: 285 Echidna: 210 Elphin: 300

Bartre: 205 Raigh: 260 Cath: 335

Miredy: 270 Perceval: 215 Cecilia: 235

Sophia: 280 Igrene: 200 Garret: 200

Fa: 600 Hugh: 240 Zeis: 275

Douglas: 205 Niime: 110 Dayan: 150

Juno: 200 Yodel: 125 Karel: 950

 

 

FE GRT BS

Eliwood: 325 Lyn: 335 Hector: 335

Sain: 290 Kent: 290 Florina: 305

Wil: 300 Dorcas: 285 Serra: 300

Erk: 285 Rath: 285 Matthew: 310

Wallace: 275 Lowen: 300 Rebecca: 305

Marcus: 250 Bartre: 295 Oswin: 310

Guy: 310 Merlinus: 445 Priscilla: 305

Raven: 300 Lucius: 295 Canas: 285

Dart: 285 Fiora: 315 Legault: 300

Nils/Ninian: 345 Isadora: 280 Heath: 295

Hawkeye: 240 Geitz: 285 Farina: 310

Pent: 245 Louise: 260 Karel: 255

Harken: 260 Nino: 330 Jaffar: 235

Vaida: 240 Karla: 255 Renault: 240

 

 

FE GRT SS

Erika: 350 Seth: 325 Franz: 295

Gilliam: 305 Moulder: 270 Vanessa: 300

Ross: 270 Garcia: 285 Neimi: 310

Colm: 265 Artur: 290 Lute: 285

Natasha: 305 Joshua: 295 Ephraim: 345

Forde: 300 Kyle: 295 Tana: 320

Amelia: 270 Innes: 290 Gerik: 295

Tethys: 355 Marisa: 310 L’Arachel: 315

Dozla: 295 Saleh: 250 Ewan: 275

Cormag: 300 Rennac: 275 Dussel: 305

Knoll: 270 Myrrh: 580 Syrene: 320

Caellach: 295 Orson: 320 Riev: 290

Ismaire: 295 Selena: 295 Glen: 320

Hayden: 290 Valter: 280 Fado: 305

Lyon: 375

 

 

FE GRT PR

Note- Sothe has blossom

Ike: 365 Titania: 390 Oscar: 310

Boyd: 320 Rhys: 325 Shinon: 320

Gatrie: 330 Soren: 305 Mia: 315

Ilyana: 305 Marcia: 315 Mist: 315

Rolf: 310 Lethe: 435 Mordecai: 420

Volke: 310 Kieran: 310 Brom: 305

Nephenee: 310 Zihark: 315 Sothe: 550

Jill: 300 Astrid: 305 Makalov: 305

Stefan: 325 Tormod: 305 Muarim: 485

Devdan: 350 Reyson: 335 Ulki: 430

Janaff: 425 Tanith: 330 Calill: 325

Tauroneo: 315 Ranulf: 380 Haar: 305

Lucia: 325 Bastian: 395 Geoffrey: 340

Largo: 320 Elincia: 370 Ena: 405

Nasir: 430 Tibarn: 490 Naesala: 490

Giffca: 490

 

Each band offers a net gain of 10 to a character’s GRT

The Knight Ward offers a net gain of 30 to a character’s GRT

 

 

FE GRT RD

Micaiah: 400 Edward: 380 Leonardo: 380 Nolan: 390

Laura: 380 Sothe: 350 Ilyana: 360 Aran: 375

Meg: 375 Volug: 325 Tauroneo: 330 Jill: 360

Zihark: 345 Fiona: 360 Tormod: 350 Muarim: 305

Vika: 400 Nailah: 250 Rafiel: 250 Elincia: 385

Marcia: 345 Nealuchi: 325 Leanne: 260 Haar: 335

Brom: 350 Nephenee: 350 Heather: 350 Lucia: 320

Lethe: 305 Mordecai: 315 Geoffrey: 330 Kieran: 335

Astrid: 350 Makalov: 345 Danved: 340 Calill: 340

Ike: 310 Titania: 330 Soren: 370 Mist: 350

Rolf: 350 Boyd: 340 Oscar: 335 Shinon: 335

Gatrie: 345 Rhys: 355 Mia: 355 Ranulf: 270

Kyza: 315 Lyre: 330 Reyson: 240 Janaff: 275

Ulki: 275 Sigrun: 320 Tanith: 325 Sanaki: 400

Skrimir: 265 Tibarn: 250 Naesala: 280 Pelleas: 335

Stefan: 350 Oliver: 315 Bastian: 300 Volke: 310

Kurthnaga: 335 Ena: 300 Caineghis: 200 Giffca: 240

Renning: 300 Gareth: 295 Nasir: 285

By the way, you have to deduct Weapon Level growth from 1 and 3, since that isn't relevant now. The value for that growth ranges from Caeda's 80 to Castor's 20 for standard units, so remove that and the GRTs of 1&3 are a bit lower.

Paired Gen 2 Genealogy also has a lot of excessive HP growths of over 100.

Thracia appears to have no consistency, though that game isn't so much about stats and growing from what I hear.

Why the uptick in FE7 compared to FE6? Maybe to make things easier for the newbie international audience (as if the crappy enemies weren't enough)?

Things hold steady in SS, before another bump in PoR.

Also, notice from FE6-9 how much prepromotes gain in growths, particularly vis a vis everyone else. I'm not sure why this happened.

[X-Naut]

Average growth rates have are heavily dependent on the stat and level system of the game. Extremely high growth rates did exist early on (Caeda has a 90% Speed growth in FE1) but they were limited to a few stats and often came with deficiencies elsewhere. GBA is arguably where growths became more "average," with a smaller GRT gap between the high and low end growth units.

Awakening and Fates' runaway growths are the product of having too wide a stat scale for how many levels a unit can gain. Forty levels to go from single digit stats to the thirties requires growths in excess of 60% to cap. New Mystery arguably set the stage for 3DS games with many characters Str/Skl/Spd/Luk growths above 60% without any substantial drawbacks not enforced by the physical-magic bridge; although in that game it's less necessary to cap and simply has them ramming caps awfully early.

13 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Also, notice from FE6-9 how much prepromotes gain in growths, particularly vis a vis everyone else. I'm not sure why this happened.

It's because prepromote bases are tared more heavily than other units and there was a shift in mindset from crutch characters to making everyone "endgame viable". Think about it: if you want them to "keep up" with the unpromoted units but don't want to overload their base stats, they're going to need stacked growths to compensate for poor levels.

[Dunal]

On 31/05/2018 at 2:48 AM, Purple Mage said:

Also, developers back then had no concept of balance.

Eh... Lower growths actually create a more 'balanced' game on the basis of over-levelled/under-levelled units having less variance in power. The problem in the latest games is that even just being 3-5 levels behind (compared to the average level the game expects them to be) severely hampers them since stat gains in fewer levels are much greater. Singular stats in FE mean the same no matter how 'high' they are (7 SPD compared to 3 SPD is the exact same as 36 SPD compared to 32 SPD) so higher growths create larger power differences with lower EXP. Especially in Fates where HP is so small where STR/DEF (MAG/RES) values are even more important as a whole.

Lower growths help lower the variance in unit power based on their level or investment. Some of the older games didn't necessarily balance bases/growths perfectly, but it did mean that there was less reliance on growth/momentum as a whole, in order for a unit to remain good. And in reverse, meant that over-levelled units are less extremely powerful. Fates at least addressed this a bit by having far harsher EXP penalties for being higher levelled compared to Awakening.

The solution to this may be by inflating HP/damage values overall, as it would create less value on individual points of stats (that calculate damage) as well as revising the doubling mechanic. Again, Fates' major flaw was doing the opposite.

Quote

Personally, I dislike stat inflation because it leads to a scenario where everyone's super, so nobody is.

This is also a misconception since 55 STR vs. 50 DEF is the exact same result as 10 STR VS. 5 DEF. Everyone having super high numbers doesn't really mean much since ultimately, the stats in FE counteract each-other. The only thing higher growths affect is variance in these differences, which is inherently unhealthy. It isn't a matter of 'inflation' necessarily.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Dunal

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

Generally, games with higher numbers in their combat systems are more exciting than lower numbers. Depending on the game sometimes the max HP or damage is as low as 99 or as high as 999,999,999.

The problem is that a lot of these higher numbers are pure inflation. Instead of making the game more interesting or complex they slap a few 0s to the end of a stat to make it appear more interesting.

Fire Emblem has largely avoided this but at the same time stats have been getting larger as the games go on, and I feel that at a certain point they went over the bell curve and it started doing more harm than good. I liked growth rates as they were in the GBA and Tellius games. A little low in places but all the same you could tell a unit's strong suits and weaknesses based on their stat growths. They were very good at what they were good at and sometimes fell a bit in their weak spots. Because of this numerous characters were solidly built but had problems they would have to work with. This made interesting wrinkles in your strategy depending on the strengths and weaknesses of your chosen team members

Awakening and Fates ruined the balance I think. Most characters have such high growth rates that they can be modified into almost any class configuration, especially if you used a second seal to move them into another class with different growth modifiers. You can eventually create characters entirely lacking weak points by abusing second seals, even then certain characters could be raised to crush anything in their path without drawbacks even without them. Like the child characters.

[bottlegnomes]

@Interdimensional Observer I think you have a typo on Shinon's PoR growths. Pretty sure they're 420, not 320. Otherwise, interesting data. It seems like FE1-5 were kind of all over the place and it wasn't really until 6 on that the creep started to happen.

Edited June 2, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

Generally, games with higher numbers in their combat systems are more exciting than lower numbers. Depending on the game sometimes the max HP or damage is as low as 99 or as high as 999,999,999.

The problem is that a lot of these higher numbers are pure inflation. Instead of making the game more interesting or complex they slap a few 0s to the end of a stat to make it appear more interesting.

Fire Emblem has largely avoided this but at the same time stats have been getting larger as the games go on, and I feel that at a certain point they went over the bell curve and it started doing more harm than good. I liked growth rates as they were in the GBA and Tellius games. A little low in places but all the same you could tell a unit's strong suits and weaknesses based on their stat growths. They were very good at what they were good at and sometimes fell a bit in their weak spots. Because of this numerous characters were solidly built but had problems they would have to work with. This made interesting wrinkles in your strategy depending on the strengths and weaknesses of your chosen team members

Awakening and Fates ruined the balance I think. Most characters have such high growth rates that they can be modified into almost any class configuration, especially if you used a second seal to move them into another class with different growth modifiers. You can eventually create characters entirely lacking weak points by abusing second seals, even then certain characters could be raised to crush anything in their path without drawbacks even without them. Like the child characters.

That's something I actually really like about the Paper Mario series (or at least the first two games). All the stats are really low, so if your facing an enemy with just 1 defense, it really means something.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

Generally, games with higher numbers in their combat systems are more exciting than lower numbers. Depending on the game sometimes the max HP or damage is as low as 99 or as high as 999,999,999.

The problem is that a lot of these higher numbers are pure inflation. Instead of making the game more interesting or complex they slap a few 0s to the end of a stat to make it appear more interesting.

Fire Emblem has largely avoided this but at the same time stats have been getting larger as the games go on, and I feel that at a certain point they went over the bell curve and it started doing more harm than good. I liked growth rates as they were in the GBA and Tellius games. A little low in places but all the same you could tell a unit's strong suits and weaknesses based on their stat growths. They were very good at what they were good at and sometimes fell a bit in their weak spots. Because of this numerous characters were solidly built but had problems they would have to work with. This made interesting wrinkles in your strategy depending on the strengths and weaknesses of your chosen team members

Awakening and Fates ruined the balance I think. Most characters have such high growth rates that they can be modified into almost any class configuration, especially if you used a second seal to move them into another class with different growth modifiers. You can eventually create characters entirely lacking weak points by abusing second seals, even then certain characters could be raised to crush anything in their path without drawbacks even without them. Like the child characters.

This is part of why I was such a huge fan of Disgaea, but lost interest in after beating 2. Seeing big numbers loses its appeal once it becomes more and more apparent that it's there to cover up a lack of interesting gameplay mechanics(Disgaea actually has approximately 4 trillion gameplay mechanics, but none of them fit together cohesively).

Obviously Disgaea is an extreme example, but it's worth mentioning since it's the same genre as Fire Emblem. Awakening was as close to Disgaea as the series has ever gotten, since not only did it have some of the worst map design, objective design, and unit balance in the franchise, it also had the highest stats and the biggest numbers. It was a wading pool, but you had tons of rubber duckies to distract you from the fact that the pool you're sitting in is a foot deep, very much like Disgaea.

The addition/normalization of grinding in Fire Emblem has added a very aggravating problem. There are some units who are flatout unusable without grinding, and units who you haven't trained won't be usable after a few chapters after recruitment without grinding. You could bring them into story battles, but their contributions would essentially be 0. Obviously a bigger problem in Awakening than Fates, where grinding was discouraged, but it was still present in Fates. Especially in Revelations. There will be some units that will die if an enemy unit throws a mean look at them, because the differences in stats will be so insane that they can't take a single hit or do any damage. It's like every unit becomes Nino after a certain point.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Slumber

[ping]

My conception is that Fire Emblem started as a strategy game with RPG elements and, over time, put more and more focus on those RPG elements. Higher growths are part of that - individual units have more of a power level progression than they used to have, and "grind your units to make them OP" is (unfortunately) part of the traditional RPG formula.

Another symptom is the increased customizability your units have - in the older games, most units are mostly predetermined in what they can and cannot do. I say "mostly" because stat boosters and occasionally growth boosters did exist (and come to think of it, skill scrolls were a thing in Jugral, weren't they?), but you couldn't turn your axe fighter into a swordsman, or have your armor knight suddenly find a horse. I suppose the branching promotion in FE8 is a first step in this direction, but the reclassing introduced in the DS remakes and even moreso the skill system in Awakening/Fates are pretty akin to the DnD concept of multiclassing in order to get a specific skill set.

The concept of "replacement units", or more specifically the fact that these aren't a thing anymore, also fits into this trend. FE was initially "meant" to be iron-manned, and the units were more of a resource than real party members. If you lose one, you're forced to use the weaker alternative, and if you get that one killed too, well, sucks to be you. I'd say that FE6 seems to be the last game with that mindset - you have Noah and Treck as replacements for Alance, OJ for Dieck, Fir for Rutger, while FE7 seems to be based on the ideal that every single unit should have some unique specialization. To take the three unpromoted cavs as an example, we get the tanky Lowen, the stronk Sain, and the speedy/reliable Kent. Between the peg sisters, Florina is the dodgiest, Fiora has the highest Res, while Farina is a bit slower, but more buff than the other two. PoR has a nice example of this "specialization" mindset, as well: You recruit four unpromoted cavaliers in total, one for every physical weapon type.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, ping said:

My conception is that Fire Emblem started as a strategy game with RPG elements and, over time, put more and more focus on those RPG elements. Higher growths are part of that - individual units have more of a power level progression than they used to have, and "grind your units to make them OP" is (unfortunately) part of the traditional RPG formula.

Another symptom is the increased customizability your units have - in the older games, most units are mostly predetermined in what they can and cannot do. I say "mostly" because stat boosters and occasionally growth boosters did exist (and come to think of it, skill scrolls were a thing in Jugral, weren't they?), but you couldn't turn your axe fighter into a swordsman, or have your armor knight suddenly find a horse. I suppose the branching promotion in FE8 is a first step in this direction, but the reclassing introduced in the DS remakes and even moreso the skill system in Awakening/Fates are pretty akin to the DnD concept of multiclassing in order to get a specific skill set.

The concept of "replacement units", or more specifically the fact that these aren't a thing anymore, also fits into this trend. FE was initially "meant" to be iron-manned, and the units were more of a resource than real party members. If you lose one, you're forced to use the weaker alternative, and if you get that one killed too, well, sucks to be you. I'd say that FE6 seems to be the last game with that mindset - you have Noah and Treck as replacements for Alance, OJ for Dieck, Fir for Rutger, while FE7 seems to be based on the ideal that every single unit should have some unique specialization. To take the three unpromoted cavs as an example, we get the tanky Lowen, the stronk Sain, and the speedy/reliable Kent. Between the peg sisters, Florina is the dodgiest, Fiora has the highest Res, while Farina is a bit slower, but more buff than the other two. PoR has a nice example of this "specialization" mindset, as well: You recruit four unpromoted cavaliers in total, one for every physical weapon type.

Binding Blade was probably the reason things shifted away from replacement units too, as it was the one to introduce personalized support conversation for the entire cast, making them all unique. As good as Jugdrals's story is, even some of the plot relevant characters are very underdeveloped making it easier to just have replacement units (Jugdral even literally had replacement characters with the identical characters the game gives you if you didn't breed the first gen mother's).

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

My conception is that Fire Emblem started as a strategy game with RPG elements and, over time, put more and more focus on those RPG elements. Higher growths are part of that - individual units have more of a power level progression than they used to have, and "grind your units to make them OP" is (unfortunately) part of the traditional RPG formula.

I think you might be onto something. People loath to lose units in Fire Emblem unlike games where your units are generic. Because of this in some strategy games losing a unit isn't a big deal because you can buy, build, or train a replacement. But our gaming instinct tells us that when we have a limited number of units which are unique characters that we can like or dislike, we want to keep them alive

As they became less of a resource and more of a party member the growth rates have more or less increased along the way 

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

I think you have a typo on Shinon's PoR growths. Pretty sure they're 420, not 320. Otherwise, interesting data. It seems like FE1-5 were kind of all over the place and it wasn't really until 6 on that the creep started to happen.

Definitely must be a typo for Shinon, but that post is too long for me to edit it. Still, I'll keep it in mind.

 

As for the rest, you have class growths, and then you have character growths, you have to stack the two to get the final GRTs.

SD Class Growths:

Spoiler

SD Class Growths: (negatives not included, put in parentheses instead)

Lord: 100 (-10 Mag, -5 Res) 

Pegasus/Falcon Knight: 95 (-15 Mag)

Draco-knight (M): 105 Draco-knight (F): 115 (both: -15 Mag)

Cavalier/Paladin: 105 (-10 Mag, -5 Res)

Knight/General: 125 (-15 Mag, -10 Res)

Archer/Sniper: 110 (-10 Mag, Res)

Mercenary/Hero: 130 (-20 Mag, -10 Res)

Myrmidon/Sword-master: 110 (-10 Mag, -5 Res)

Fighter/Warrior: 145 (-20 Mag, -15 Res)

Hunter/Horseman: 105 (-15 Mag, Res)

Pirate/Berserker: 145 (-20 Mag, -15 Res)

Mage: 95 (-10 Str, -15 Def)

Sage: 100 (-15 Str, Def)

Curate/Cleric: 95 (-15 Str, -10 Def)

Bishop: 100 (-15 Str, Def)

Thief: 115 (-20 Mag, -10 Res)

Manakete: 140 (-10 Res)

Ballistician: 110 (-10 Mag, -15 Res)

Chameleon: 145 (-20 Mag, -15 Res)

SD Character Growths:

Spoiler

SD Personal Growth Rate Totals: (includes negatives)

Marth: 222 Frey: 195 Abel: 155 Cain: 175 Jagen: 70

Gordin: 120 Draug: 100 Norne: 125 Caeda: 195 Wrys: 80

Ogma: 135 Barst: 100 Bord: 100 Cord: 115 Darros: 100

Castor: 100 Julian: 237 Lena: 100 Navarre: 155 Merric: 180

Matthis: 140 Hardin: 140 Wolf: 435 Sedgar: 435 Roshea: 125

Vyland: 100 Wendell: 80 Rickard: 227 Athena: 120 Bantu: -15

Caesar: 130 Radd: 150 Roger: 150 Jeorge: 80 Maria: 110

Minerva: 125 Linde: 145 Jake: 105 Midia: 140 Dolph: 105

Macellan: 85 Tomas: 105 Boah: 20 Horace: 70 Beck: 110

Astram: 140 Palla: 160 Catria: 225 Arran: 130 Samson: 105

Xane: 47 Etzel: 105 Est: 190 Tiki: 292 Lorenz: 160 Ymir: 85

Elice: 225 Nagi: 292 Gotoh: 200

NM Character Growths (Class Growths should be the same as SD):

Spoiler

NM Personal Growth Rate Totals:

Marth: 305 Luke: 235 Rody: 260 Cecil: 265 Gordin: 170

Ryan: 235 Draug: 200 Arran: 10 Malliesia: 195 Catria: 295

Warren: 215 Cord: 190 Linde: 260 Palla: 225 Bord: 175

Julian: 305 Matthis: 195 Wrys: 140 Ogma: 240 Yumina: 200

Yubello: 200 Sirius: 295 Castor: 175 Caeda: 295 Barst: 195

Rickard: 185 Frey: 270 Norne: 200 Samto: 160 Wendell: 150

Caesar: 190 Radd: 195 Navarre: 250 Feena: 295 Cain: 280

Bantu: -5 Roger: 240 Jeorge: 190 Minerva: 240 Etzel: 255

Merric: 260 Ellerean: 200 Dice: 160 Maris: 210 Horace: 260

Jake: 320 Darros: 180 Robert: 235 Belf: 190 Leiden: 200

Beck: 235 Athena: 250 Xane: 125 Tiki: 305 Est: 325

Dolph: 205 Abel: 265 Macellan: 280 Astram: 205 

Katarina: 310 Tomas: 260 Sheema: 290 Samson: 190 

Frost: 295 Roshea: 275 Vyland: 245 Sedgar: 280 Wolf: 285

Midia: 230 Ymir: 195 Michalis: 240 Nagi: 305 Lena: 175

Maria: 185 Nyna: 190 Elice: 280

Awakening Class Growths:

Spoiler

Awakening Class Growth Rate Totals:

(Comparing to Fates, each class gives between 35-50 HP growth, and never any luck.)

Lord/Great Lord: 115 Tactician/Grandmaster: 120

Cavalier: 120 Paladin: 125 Great Knight: 125

Knight: 120 General: 125 Barbarian/Berserker: 120

Myrmidon: 120 Sword-master: 125

Mercenary/Hero: 125 Fighter/Warrior: 120

Archer: 120 Sniper: 125 Bow Knight: 125

Thief: 115 Trickster: 120 Assassin: 125

Pegasus Knight: 125 Falcon Knight: 130

Dark Flier: 120  Wyvern Rider/Lord: 120

Griffon Rider: 120 Mage/Sage: 110

Dark Knight: 125 Dark Mage: 120

Sorcerer: 115 Priest/Cleric: 105

Troubadour/Valkyrie: 105 Villager: 70

Dancer: 100 Taguel (M): 105 Taguel (F): 110

Manakete: 145 Conqueror: 125

Awakening Character Growths:

Spoiler

Awakening Personal Growth Rate Totals:

Chrom: 295 (410 total with Lord) Lissa: 275 Frederick: 285 

Sully: 290 Virion: 280 Stahl: 280 Vaike: 290 Miriel: 270

Sumia: 290 Kellam: 300 Donnel: 325 (Aptitude makes it 485)

Lon’qu: 295 Ricken: 285 Maribelle: 290 Panne: 320

Gaius: 275 Cordelia: 290 Gregor: 275 Nowi: 360

Libra: 285 Tharja: 275 Anna: 325 Olivia: 290

Cherche: 295 Henry: 300 Say’ri: 295 Tiki: 395

Basilio: 295 Flavia: 305 Gangrel: 300 Walhart: 320

Emmeryn: 320 Yen’fay: 320 Aversa: 315 Priam: 320

 

Child:

Lucina: 320 Owain: 305 Inigo: 295 Brady: 300 Kjelle: 300

Cynthia: 300 Severa: 280 Gerome: 290 Morgan: 290

Yarne: 330 Laurent: 285 Noire: 310 Nah: 365

 

My Unit: 290 (without Asset/Flaw choices)

Asset Boosts: HP= +40 Anything else= +25

Flaw Decrease: HP= -30 Anything else= -20

Highest: 310

Lowest: 295

 

Comparison to Fates GRTs: Generally more consistent, the Fates cast has a greater degree of flexibility, many punch at or below Miriel, but, there are certainly more +300 too (if you leave out the Spotpass group).

Fates Classes:

Spoiler

Fates Class Growths Rates Totals:

Hoshidan: Nohrian:

Hoshido Noble: 85 Nohr Prince(ss): 85

Samurai: 80 Nohr Noble: 85

Sword-master: 85 Cavalier: 75

Master of Arms: 75 Paladin: 80

Oni Savage: 80 Great Knight: 80

Oni Chieftain: 80 Knight: 90

Blacksmith: 80 General: 95 (Awesome!!!!!)

Spear Fighter: 80 Fighter: 80

Spear Master: 80 Berserker: 85

Basara: 90 Hero: 85

Diviner: 60 Mercenary: 80

Onmyoji: 60 Bow Knight: 70

Monk/Shrine Maiden: 75 Outlaw: 75

Great Master: 85 Adventurer: 65

Priestess: 85 Wyvern Rider: 75

Sky Knight: 75 Wyvern Lord: 75

Falcon Knight: 85 Malig Knight: 70

Kinshi Knight: 65 Dark Mage: 55 (Why!?!)

Archer: 70 Sorcerer: 55

Sniper: 75 Dark Knight: 80

Ninja: 70 Troubadour: 70

Master Ninja: 75 Strategist: 65

Mechanist: 70 Butler/Maid: 75

Apothecary: 80 Wolfskin/Wolfssegner: 75

Merchant: 85 Dark Falcon: 80

Kitsune: 85 Ballistician: 65

Nine-Tails: 85 Witch: 70

Songstress: 70 Lodestar: 90

Villager: 70 Vanguard: 75

Dread Fighter: 80 Great Lord: 80

Grandmaster: 80

Fates Characters:

Spoiler

Fates Personal Growths (might be a little off)

Gunter: 50 Fuga: 100 Reina: 195 Yukimura: 195

Shura: 190 Nyx: 235 Setsuna: 225 Hinata: 235

Subaki: 250 Selena: 250 Orochi: 275 Rinkah: 255 

Arthur: 255 Felicia: 260 Kagero: 270 Flora: 265

Jakob: 265 Hana: 265 Scarlet: 270 Peri: 270

Izana: 290 Niles: 275 Kaze: 280 Takumi: 285

Keaton: 280 Beruka: 280 Oboro: 280 Silas: 285

Charlotte: 285 Laslow: 285 Xander: 290 Kaden: 290

Hayato: 315 Benny: 285 Elise: 305 Hinoka: 305

Azura: 310 Ryoma: 300 Sakura: 310 Odin: 330

Effie: 295 Azama: 310 Camilla: 325 Saizo: 330

Anna: 315 Leo: 325 Mozu: 290 (without the +80 of Aptitude)

 

Children (without parents modding the growths)

Kana: 275 Shigure: 250 Dwyer: 265 Sophie: 280

Midori: 275 Shiro: 285 Kiragi: 280 Asugi: 335

Selkie: 310 Hisame: 245 Mitama: 315 Caeldori: 285

Rhajat: 265 Soleil: 275 Percy: 295 Ignatius: 295

Velouria: 290 Ophelia: 305 Nina: 300 Forrest: 295

Siegbert: 280

SoV Class Growths:

Spoiler

Villager: 0

Cavalier/Paladin/Gold Knight: 0 Skogul: 15

Soldier/Knight/Baron: 0 Spartan: 15

Mercenary/Myrmidon/Dread Fighter: 0 Yasha: 15

Archer/Sniper/Bow Knight: -5 Oliphantier: 5

Fighter/Hero: 0 Conqueror: 18

Mage (M)/Sage: 0 Guru: 15

Pegasus/Falcon Knight: -5 Harrier: 6

Cleric/Saint: -13 Exemplar: -2

Mage (F)/Priestess: -9 Enchantress: -2

Priestess (Celica)/Princess: 0 Rigain: 18

SoV Character Growths:

Spoiler

SoV Personal Growth Rate Totals:

Alm: 298 Lukas: 222 Gray: 195 Tobin: 205

Kliff: 230 Faye: 213 Silque: 252 Clair: 282

Clive: 212 Forsyth: 223 Python: 214 Luthier: 282

Mathilda: 279 Delthea: 254 Tatiana: 234 Zeke: 301

Mycen: 68

Celica: 294 Mae: 242 Boey: 256 Genny: 230

Saber: 230 Valbar: 246 Kamui: 215 Palla: 261

Catria: 247 Atlas: 200 Jesse: 245 Sonya: 244

Deen: 235 Est: 288 Nomah: 96 Conrad: 283

Emma: 275 Randal: 255 Yuzu: 282 Shade: 249

Astral Shards/Star Jacinth Net Growth Rate Total Boosts:

Spoiler

Aquarius: 40 Pisces: 32 Aries: 40 Taurus: 32

Gemini: 40 Cancer: 40 Leo: 40 Virgo: 15

Libra: 48 Scorpio: 40 Sagittarius: 40 Capricorn: 40

Star Jacinth: 185

Comparing with those Gaiden numbers I posted before, the growths buff was unevenly applied. Kliff got a tiny 10, and Est, despite needing really good growths compared to the rest to be a worthwhile unit, got only a 30 buff. Deen on the other hand gained 125, which with Sonya gaining relatively little and how good DFs are in SoV, makes him much more her equal. Alm, Celica, and Clair maintained their very high GRTs. Returning to Est, she has been replaced as the most growth-having by Zeke, who probably got this for the same reason PoR Titania's GRT overshadows all her mounted competition- their stats relative to their high level are low compared to what the competition at the same point would be at.

 

Also, for most games I compared the highest "normal (as in not true average-wrecking outlier)" GRT, with the lowest and listed the difference in GRT value. This was to see how much variance there was in growths as whole, which is an element of FE gameplay design.

Spoiler

DDBL: (not Catria/Est/Caeda/staff user/promoted unit/manakete): Linda 370 - Macellan 170 = 200 (mind you this is the age of weapon level, though that doesn’t apply for 0 Weapon Level growth Julian with 360)

Gaiden: Alm 205 - May 120 = 85

ME B2: Cain 373 - Draug 233 = 140

GHW Gen 1: (no exceptions) Sigurd 330 - Sylvia/Fury 190 = 140

Gen 2 One Set of Popular Pairings: Lewyn!Ced/Azel!Tinny 405- Claude!Leen 335 = 70

T776: Error! No general guidelines for character growths! They’re all over the place!

BB: (minus the special cases: Roy/Thieves/Fa/Karel/Promoted Units) Allen/Rutger/Dorothy/Wendy/Ogier/Fir 290 - Hugh 240 = 50 points (mind you Hugh is the only 240, Raigh is the next lowest at 260)

BS’s greatest difference: (not lord/Nino/Nils/Ninian/Merlinus/pre-promote): Guy/Matthew/Farina 310 - 285 = 25 points

SS’s greatest difference (not Ephraim/Eirika/Myrhh/Pre-promote/Trial Map)= Tana 320 - Colm 265 = 55 points

PoR: (Minus promoted units, Ike, Sothe, and laguz) Gatrie 330- Jill 300 = 30 points difference

RD: Minus laguz and Part 4 beorc: Micaiah 400 - Ike 310 = 90 (Renning and Bastian, the lowest growths beorc, have 300, laguz are as high as 400 Vika, and as low as the Red Lion King’s 200)

Awakening: Donnel 325 - Miriel 270 = 55

Fates: Odin/Saizo 330 - Setsuna 225 = 105

SoV: (Minus Mycen and Nomah) Zeke 301 - Gray 195 = 106

 

8 hours ago, Slumber said:

Especially in Revelations. There will be some units that will die if an enemy unit throws a mean look at them, because the differences in stats will be so insane that they can't take a single hit or do any damage. It's like every unit becomes Nino after a certain point.

You have a very good point here, just nitpicking that Nino isn't the best of choices for the comparison. Packing magic against FE7's weaklings, which include unpromoted units until the last gaiden on Hector Mode and the final chapter on Eliwood, means she can still damage most things, and safely too. The Fates Rev latecomers are more unusable sans the grind than anything coming late before, barring maybe Vika, Tormod, Kurthnaga and Ena.

 

7 hours ago, ping said:

The concept of "replacement units", or more specifically the fact that these aren't a thing anymore, also fits into this trend. FE was initially "meant" to be iron-manned, and the units were more of a resource than real party members. If you lose one, you're forced to use the weaker alternative, and if you get that one killed too, well, sucks to be you. I'd say that FE6 seems to be the last game with that mindset - you have Noah and Treck as replacements for Alance, OJ for Dieck, Fir for Rutger, while FE7 seems to be based on the ideal that every single unit should have some unique specialization. To take the three unpromoted cavs as an example, we get the tanky Lowen, the stronk Sain, and the speedy/reliable Kent. Between the peg sisters, Florina is the dodgiest, Fiora has the highest Res, while Farina is a bit slower, but more buff than the other two. PoR has a nice example of this "specialization" mindset, as well: You recruit four unpromoted cavaliers in total, one for every physical weapon type.

I'm totally fine with the specialization mindset, FE just needs to be the enforcer a little more and crack down on the specializations. Unfortunately, Awakening once the snowball starts rolling undoes such. Fates is better at enforcing specialization, particularly Conquest, but I shouldn't be able to reclass Xander into an awesome wingman or footie for a big chunk of the game, since it undermines his weaknesses inherent in himself in his initial class and only adds to his strengths. Conquest is still a good strategic challenge, and I don't mind it that much, but it does undercut specialized units all the same. Doesn't FE12 have something of a similar issue with Farore and Nayru being able to go Cav whenever a bow threatens their sun-shining day and then destroy things just the same?

 

I do want FE to keep the Strategy element of itself alive. I don't like Disgaea, and FFT-based SRPGs are just dreadfully slow battles where you spam as much Ultima Shot and Doublecast Maduin or whatever is the most potent snuff around as you can. Map design matters not at all really, other than lots of high terrain being a nuisance. 

[BrightBow]

I'd say Awakening growths are in a way even higher then that, considering that the Pair Up boosts increase heavily over the course of the game as well.

[ping]

On 2.6.2018 at 10:28 AM, Jotari said:

Binding Blade was probably the reason things shifted away from replacement units too, as it was the one to introduce personalized support conversation for the entire cast, making them all unique. As good as Jugdrals's story is, even some of the plot relevant characters are very underdeveloped making it easier to just have replacement units (Jugdral even literally had replacement characters with the identical characters the game gives you if you didn't breed the first gen mother's).

Good point. I assume Jugdral is a bit like Shadow Dragon in that regard? Units get a bit of dialogue when they join and maybe a Talk or two with associated characters, before they stop appearing at all?

18 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm totally fine with the specialization mindset, FE just needs to be the enforcer a little more and crack down on the specializations. Unfortunately, Awakening once the snowball starts rolling undoes such. Fates is better at enforcing specialization, particularly Conquest, but I shouldn't be able to reclass Xander into an awesome wingman or footie for a big chunk of the game, since it undermines his weaknesses inherent in himself in his initial class and only adds to his strengths. Conquest is still a good strategic challenge, and I don't mind it that much, but it does undercut specialized units all the same.

Oh, so am I. But I think it also gets counteracted by another RPG imperative - every unit must be viable for the entire game, noone can be allowed to significantly fall behind stat-wise. Of course, there will still be differences in long-term potential through which classes and skills are available, or what personal stat modifiers a unit might have. But one thing that does get lost (and which is my favourite thing about Binding Blade's otherwise rather poor unit balance) - units with good, but temporary usefulness, like Jerrot or FE6!Bartre who turn up with stats appropriate for that point of the game and are able to do quite fine for a couple chapters, until other units start catching up and overtaking them. From what I know about Awakening and Fates, this type of character ("midgame Jeigans", so to speak) aren't really a thing anymore.

18 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Doesn't FE12 have something of a similar issue with Farore and Nayru being able to go Cav whenever a bow threatens their sun-shining day and then destroy things just the same?

I had to google those. ;)

Yeah, the unlimited reclassing in FE12 in general isn't particularly helpful for preserving character niches. There are still some for the very early joiners - Luke's sword rank means that if he reclasses to Hunter->Horseman, he'll immediately get back his D swords; Ryan can kinda do the opposite and go Myrm->Horseman and have C Bows after promotion (assuming he fired his bow a couple times in the prologue); Cecille is the only one of the three initial cavs who can go Flyer before promotion - but at some point fairly early in the game, most units can be summed up as "worse than whoever you've already been investing in". Catria and Palla in particular are practically guaranteed to outperform any lance and sword users, since you also have access to the Lady Sword (a female only, E rank Silver Sword) fairly early in the game.

[Slumber]

26 minutes ago, ping said:

Good point. I assume Jugdral is a bit like Shadow Dragon in that regard? Units get a bit of dialogue when they join and maybe a Talk or two with associated characters, before they stop appearing at all?

That's more Thracia 776. 

Genealogy actually does have a fair bit of character interaction and one-off scenes with characters. There's also the marriage dialogues, which each character has. Some get better treatment than others, but it's a pretty noticeable step above anything that came before it. And if it weren't for supports, it'd be a noticeable step above anything that came out after until PoR, really. 

Though the second Gen suffers a bit. The static characters like Seliph, Leif, Oifaye, and Finn get plenty, but the other kids get shafted. Ced gets some focus, Nanna gets some focus, but everyone else is mostly relegated to their recruitment scenes and marriage dialogues. The subs get completely screwed, as the most they ever get is comparable to the least the Crusader kids get. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Slumber

[Harvey]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:31 PM, ping said:

My conception is that Fire Emblem started as a strategy game with RPG elements and, over time, put more and more focus on those RPG elements. Higher growths are part of that - individual units have more of a power level progression than they used to have, and "grind your units to make them OP" is (unfortunately) part of the traditional RPG formula.

Another symptom is the increased customizability your units have - in the older games, most units are mostly predetermined in what they can and cannot do. I say "mostly" because stat boosters and occasionally growth boosters did exist (and come to think of it, skill scrolls were a thing in Jugral, weren't they?), but you couldn't turn your axe fighter into a swordsman, or have your armor knight suddenly find a horse. I suppose the branching promotion in FE8 is a first step in this direction, but the reclassing introduced in the DS remakes and even moreso the skill system in Awakening/Fates are pretty akin to the DnD concept of multiclassing in order to get a specific skill set.

The concept of "replacement units", or more specifically the fact that these aren't a thing anymore, also fits into this trend. FE was initially "meant" to be iron-manned, and the units were more of a resource than real party members. If you lose one, you're forced to use the weaker alternative, and if you get that one killed too, well, sucks to be you. I'd say that FE6 seems to be the last game with that mindset - you have Noah and Treck as replacements for Alance, OJ for Dieck, Fir for Rutger, while FE7 seems to be based on the ideal that every single unit should have some unique specialization. To take the three unpromoted cavs as an example, we get the tanky Lowen, the stronk Sain, and the speedy/reliable Kent. Between the peg sisters, Florina is the dodgiest, Fiora has the highest Res, while Farina is a bit slower, but more buff than the other two. PoR has a nice example of this "specialization" mindset, as well: You recruit four unpromoted cavaliers in total, one for every physical weapon type.

Even beyond FE6, you still had replacable units. The prepromotes in FE7 are way damn overpowered to the point that there's almost no reason to use tier one units...well except Karla and Karel I guess.

 

[ping]

@Slumber: Thanks for the explaination!

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Even beyond FE6, you still had replacable units. The prepromotes in FE7 are way damn overpowered to the point that there's almost no reason to use tier one units...well except Karla and Karel I guess.

Huh?
Oswin is good, especially for newer players
Serra isn't too bad
Erk and Lucius are both quite decent, especially if you've given them XP in Lyn Mode. Pent doesn't arrive before ch.24/26 and it's not like there's a hard cap on how many mages to bring.
The only prepromoted flyer joins in ch.27/29. You have four unpromoted flyers who are all not only usable, but also your only options as air unit for most of the game.
Raven, as far as I know, is considered to be one of the best, if not the best combat unit in the game when he promotes.

Like, I agree that FE7's prepromotes are really strong, but it's not like you're drowning in them. Marcus, Isadora, Hawkeye, Geitz or Wallace (and the latter might even still be an unpromoted knight), Pent, Louise, Karel or Harken, Jaffar, Vaida, Karla, Renault, Athos. That's 12 at most in a given playthough if I haven't forgotten any, and the 2nd (!!) one joins in chapter 21/22, i.e. almost halfway through Eliwood's and Hector's stories. Not sure how that makes all the unpromoted units in the earlygame useless.

Not to mention that prepromotes being good is kinda part of my point. They're not designed to be temporarily good unit like Jerrot, Bartre, or Echidna, they're designed to be at least viable for endgame (although there's certainly some divergence between them).

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, ping said:

@Slumber: Thanks for the explaination!

Huh?
Oswin is good, especially for newer players
Serra isn't too bad
Erk and Lucius are both quite decent, especially if you've given them XP in Lyn Mode. Pent doesn't arrive before ch.24/26 and it's not like there's a hard cap on how many mages to bring.
The only prepromoted flyer joins in ch.27/29. You have four unpromoted flyers who are all not only usable, but also your only options as air unit for most of the game.
Raven, as far as I know, is considered to be one of the best, if not the best combat unit in the game when he promotes.

Like, I agree that FE7's prepromotes are really strong, but it's not like you're drowning in them. Marcus, Isadora, Hawkeye, Geitz or Wallace (and the latter might even still be an unpromoted knight), Pent, Louise, Karel or Harken, Jaffar, Vaida, Karla, Renault, Athos. That's 12 at most in a given playthough if I haven't forgotten any, and the 2nd (!!) one joins in chapter 21/22, i.e. almost halfway through Eliwood's and Hector's stories. Not sure how that makes all the unpromoted units in the earlygame useless.

Not to mention that prepromotes being good is kinda part of my point. They're not designed to be temporarily good unit like Jerrot, Bartre, or Echidna, they're designed to be at least viable for endgame (although there's certainly some divergence between them).

You mentioned that replaceable units only existed until FE6 and past that they are irrelevant. I just said that FE7 also has replaceable units that are far more powerful than the unpromoted  ones.

 

[ping]

On 2.6.2018 at 9:01 AM, ping said:

The concept of "replacement units", or more specifically the fact that these aren't a thing anymore, also fits into this trend. FE was initially "meant" to be iron-manned, and the units were more of a resource than real party members. If you lose one, you're forced to use the weaker alternative, and if you get that one killed too, well, sucks to be you. I'd say that FE6 seems to be the last game with that mindset - you have Noah and Treck as replacements for Alance, OJ for Dieck, Fir for Rutger, while FE7 seems to be based on the ideal that every single unit should have some unique specialization.

@Harvey - The way I used the term, replacement units are weaker than the units they're supposed to replace. One of your units is killed - the punishment is that you have to use a weaker replacement if you still want to use a unit of that class. Like Treck instead of Alan/Lance. Or Fir istead of Rutger. Or OJ instead of Dieck.

Units that are stronger than their alternatives do not fit that mold. Perceval is very much worth using if Allen and Lance are both still kicking, so he's not a "replacement" for them - sure, you can use him as one if Allen or Lance died, but that would hardly be a punishment. Same with all the overpowered late-joining prepromotes in FE7 (i.e. Pent, maaaaybe Harken and that should be all).

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

Even beyond FE6, you still had replacable units. The prepromotes in FE7 are way damn overpowered to the point that there's almost no reason to use tier one units...well except Karla and Karel I guess.

Marcus is Marcus-good yes, but he isn't as readily apparently gamebreaking as say Seth. The cavs, Sain and Kent primarily, are still so good you might as well use them.

Isadora on the other hand seems to me to be underpowered. Very fragile with 28/8/6 durability as a level 1 Paladin, her Str isn't great, and her nice Speed is heavily undercut by having only 6 Con. Swords are the only thing she can use AS loss-free, all but Slim Lances weigh her down (Iron isn't terrible though) and Axes are a way to die for her, and as she relies on dodging to live, the AS loss doubly hurts. A trained Lowen promoted at 20 has the same Str as her at the same level, and his, relevant, Con lead equals her Speed lead. Of course, that is a serious investment.

Hawkeye comes much later and while he is strong, physically durable, with a serviceable 10 Res which Pure Watered lets him tank magic, he is slow (11 Speed) and relies on crits to ORKO. Better than actually training Dorcas, quite possibly Bartre (it takes until 20/3 to match Hawkeye's base Speed, and the rest of his stats are more or less equal), and while inferior to Dart outside of magic tanking, he costs much less (yay Funds rank/25k of sweetalicious weapons!). Still, Hawkeye I think is fairly balanced.

William Wallace- Oswin is Win, this guy is very slow, comes late, and his durability isn't particularly good. Hawkeye will out do him at base in both physical and magical durability and have an offensive lead the entire time.

Geitz has fairly balanced stats, a little faster than Hawkeye with Bows too, but no crit, terrible Res, and much less HP. With one Speed proc he hits 14, which I hear is the great benchmark for most of the game. He does outshine Wil and Rebecca when you factor in their investment, and I'd hazard Louise as well, but he is by no means broken.

Pent, he is brokenly good, cannot hide that. Still, worth training one of Lucius/Canas/Erk for magical offense before he joins (and Lucius like Pent can double as a strong staffbot afterwards, while Canas has Luna), which is early lategame I'd say.

Louise is okay filler, if you didn't go Linus at FFO, she is a decent substitute Bow user, if not as good. Unlike Geitz, a trained Becky or Willy can notably outdo her, the only thing holding them back is how big of an investment they are.

Harken, low base HP, but otherwise yeah he broken. His unpromoted rival Raven ends up being very good as well though. Why not use both?

Karel, inferior to Guy in Spd, Lck and HP, but otherwise beats or ties him in Def, Skl, Res, and Str. Not bad, just in bad class and inferior to his recruitment alternative.

Jaffar- Legault and Matthew had utility for much of the game, Jaffar has a little for what is left, but is mostly solid filler combat. Offensively he owns them, owing much but not only to them not being able to promote until the end of his joining chapter.

Vaida, comes much too late, she'd be so much more useful if she joined sooner. The rest of the fliers outshine her because they can be around to actually do things.

Karla, way too late, way too underleveled with lacking bases (Swordreaver Bartre with his absolute minimum 20/5 stats can survive a round of combat with her). Her stats being largely comparable or slightly worse, not good at all, she really should have joined long ago.

Renault, second or third to last chapter. Being a staffbot, he can't be useless, but his really low Magic keeps him from hurting practically anything.

Athos- Gotoh godly goodness, his power is justified as a bail out for the final battle.

 

FE7's prepromotes do do a banged up job of rivaling their unpromoted competitors in many cases (there isn't much good reason to train a Fighter or Archer), you have a point here. But not all of them, and many of those who do come late enough that it's worth training and using their unpromoted rivals at least until they join.

[Dunal]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Isadora on the other hand seems to me to be underpowered.

Isadora is still one of the better units in FE7 (barely within the top 1/3 of units I feel). Her class is just that good. Full WTA helps overcome offensive/defensive shortcomings to a degree, and her stats are still respectable for her jointime without any prior investment. Of course, with any pre-promote, if you use Isadora + a T1 Cav vs. two T1 Cavs, that singular cav can get away with more EXP investment up until Isadora joins, resulting in a net gain of power until the very last stages of the game (the cavs can be replaced with any T1 unit in this instance really). That accounts for any pre-promote to a degree, but Isadora just happens to be in a class that is never redundant no matter what your team otherwise consists of (or how many other paladins you're using), unlike someone like Karel.

Luckily for her, FE7 enemies are as slow as molasses so even in instances she gets weighed down it rarely matters, especially later on when she has 20+ SPD at -/10.  

I'd rate her a bit higher than Hawkeye since in FE7, exceeding a certain level of bulk is easily quite overkill and Hawkeye genuinely has issues doubling and killing things. Based on the difficulty of FE7 as a whole, Isadora is more flexible. Hawkeye would have been incredibly good if enemies scaled a lot higher. It's for the same reason why Isadora is really good -- past a certain point, class/utility matters more than stats because you don't actually require a lot of them.

She's really well designed within the context of FE7. I can see why people may think the T2 units are generally "overpowered" considering how they can benefit resource allocation and how a game like FE7 scales. They genuinely do make growth units redundant when the extra eventual stats of the latter doesn't really matter. Almost all games are like this (exceptions would be FE12 or Conquest for example).

Of course, Isadora doesn't exist for almost half the game (late enough so that she isn't quite Marcus-lite) which is why she isn't better than any of the other cavs.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Dunal