Another take at FE8

[Mekkah]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds Sacred Stones too easy. There's many reasons for it, and amongst them are

1) PC growths are too high

2) you get too much money, so you can keep on restocking with the world map armories etc

Now, an approach sometimes taken by people who pick their Nightmare is upping enemy growths, lowering PC growths, maybe making items more expensive, but there's so many of those hacks and the concept is really too simple, so I did a different one. This also addressed another qualm I have with FE: your characters are dependant on the RNG for the vast majority of their stats.

So here's an experiment.

- Growths of every PC have been nerfed to the point of being nearly nill. Most people have 10% across the board, 20% in some place. Except one surprise unit, and some exceptions (like Amelia having 20%). Hardly matters, it's still crap.

- Prepromote bases have been nerfed to a huge, huge extent.

- Stat boosters are buyable from the map Armory in Serafew, so basically after Ch5.

- Stat boosters are divided into three price groups. The first is the cheap group (1000G), which has Body Ring, Talisman, Godess Icon and Secret Book. The second is the expensive group (2500G), which has Angelic Robe, Energy Ring, Speedwings and Dragonshield. Boots is in a 5000G group of its own, and is not buyable until much later.

The goal is that the player decides on how to distribute the PC's stats, not the RNG. I have kept unpromoted PCs' bases the same for now, but I will be tinkering the balance later on. The idea is that you use all those hordes of money you get wisely, complimenting a unit's strong points. This explains the nerfing of prepromos: with unpromoteds being almost as awful at 20/1 as they would normally be at 3/0 or something, they need huge base nerfs. Especially since prepromos don't require 900 EXP to get to L10, and save you 5000G for a promotion item, which can be spent on stat boosters.

The prices of the stat boosters are based on how much cash you get in the game.

FIRST PART

5000G - after Ch1

2500 - Red Gem from Ch2

10000G - after Ch8

17500G total

EIR ROUTE

10000G - White Gem from Ch10

2500G - Red Gem from Ch10

2500G - Red Gem from Ch13

5000G - after Ch13

10000G - chest in Ch14

30000G on Eirika route

47500G total

EPH ROUTE

2500G - Red Gem in Ch9

2500G - chest in Ch9

10000G - White Gem from Ch11

2500G - Red Gem from Ch13

10000G - chest in Ch14

2500G - Red Gem from Ch14

30000G on Ephraim route

47500G total

From here, cost halves due to Silver Card (Ch14).

REUNION

2500G - Red Gem from Ch16

5000G - chest in Ch16

5000G - chest in Ch19

10000G - end of Ch19

22500G after Reunion

70000G in total

Also, unless you're using Neimi, you will probably sell your Orion's Bolt, making for another 5000G. I may change promo item prices though...

Anyway, if there is interest in this, I can keep updates here and upload an IPS when I'm done.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Mekkah

[_____]

Sounds like a great idea.

[bunny: spider bitten]

You made the mistake of believing that PC's growths are too high - Not really so much that, at least not more than FE7.

The problem is better bases and better growth arrangement. The last part is critical, as I can take 300 points and make a resonable unit that suck or a reasonable unit that is amazing.

An overall nerf is effective, but taking more than 20% from every stat on every character and expecting to beat the game is a bit of a stretch without luck, and even with a load of stat boosters.

Plus, you've kind of made things boring because now, most characters have stats almost identical to any similar unit. You're buying stat boosters in spades and distributing them to characters evenly as you want to use them.

I'd say give each character like 1 over the top growth/2 above average growths would work a bit better, just to define each character, but yeah.

Overall, the concept is interesting to say the least, so if you continue it, I'll probably play it. But your cash totals have some math issues.

Edited November 11, 2008 by bunny

[Defeatist Elitist]

I like this idea. Definitely would be unique. :D

[Mekkah]

You made the mistake of believing that PC's growths are too high - Not really so much that, at least not more than FE7.

FE7 has the same problem. I was actually planning on doing it in that game, but this one is shorter, so easier to experiment with.

The problem is better bases and better growth arrangement. The last part is critical, as I can take 300 points and make a resonable unit that suck or a reasonable unit that is amazing.

An overall nerf is effective, but taking more than 20% from every stat on every character and expecting to beat the game is a bit of a stretch without luck, and even with a load of stat boosters.

Plus, you've kind of made things boring because now, most characters have stats almost identical to any similar unit. You're buying stat boosters in spades and distributing them to characters evenly as you want to use them.

The ideal end result is where bases hint where stats will go - Gilliam will have a lot more Def than Arthur, but a lot less Spd - and stat boosters do the rest. The problem with doing more with growths is that the game slides back to the RNG. I really would prefer to stick with RNG proofness...the 10-20% growths are basically a very small bonus to avoid every playthrough using the same characters being the same, though they are not necessary at all. I'm thinking about incorporating one 100% growth on every unpromoted PC, but it would probably have to be on a worse stat (as a unit with 100% Spd is obviously much better than one with 100% Luk).

But your cash totals have some math issues.

Probably. I'll check them now.

[Tino]

Interesting. Very interesting.

This will probably give the game a whole new feeling, as you have to plan what you do with your money and who you give the bought items to.

[bunny: spider bitten]

It'd be a bit more buyable if you could edit how much each stat booster increased stats by per group. I mean, a few stat boosters in defense and I have characters that can move further and take better hits than Gilliam. Why use him?

I'm actually pretty sure that the above is possible, just not incredibly plausible.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Why use Gilliam? He has a higher Base Defense, thus needs less items of course. :D That's the point I believe.

[Mekkah]

It'd be a bit more buyable if you could edit how much each stat booster increased stats by per group.

Yeah, it'd be, but I don't know how to do that. I would change Angelic Robe's +7 HP anytime.

I mean, a few stat boosters in defense and I have characters that can move further and take better hits than Gilliam. Why use him?

I may be changing some PC/enemy stats so that most characters actually have a use. Obviously there's no real reason to use Natasha when Moulder is levels higher with better bases, so capable of promoting earlier and stuff.

I have also been thinking about changing 5x around, since all it's good for now is building supports between the three PCs you get.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Yeah, it'd be, but I don't know how to do that. I would change Angelic Robe's +7 HP anytime.

I may be changing some PC/enemy stats so that most characters actually have a use. Obviously there's no real reason to use Natasha when Moulder is levels higher with better bases, so capable of promoting earlier and stuff.

I have also been thinking about changing 5x around, since all it's good for now is building supports between the three PCs you get.

Make it like a grab bag chapter filled with goodies like Stat boosters or something, but since there's no convoy... :P

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Wow, after reading this. I so want to play this hack. Need more challenges to amuse me. D:

[Starwolf_UK]

Yeah, it'd be, but I don't know how to do that. I would change Angelic Robe's +7 HP anytime.

It should be doable. Assuming your using Nightmare modules rather being a man and going for 100% hex editor open up your item editor. Get the to the stat boosting items...notice they have a stats bonus pointer.

Now we can go to the where offset it tells us using a hex editor. A sea of zeros and a few numbers. It goes like this:

HP

STR/MGC

SKL

SPD

DEF

MDF

LCK

Movement

Con

*4 unused?* (its stored as sequences of 12...why IS 8 would have made the dead easier to see...)

To make life simple the angelic robe boost is at 8AEEDC...try seeing what happens if you change the 7?

Yeah if you tweek the nightmare module for custom stat boosts and then change some other items you may be able to make more stat boosters (I say may becuase the game might crash on the *stat* boosted text, thought its more likely to just show no indication of the item being used)...and before anyone asks Movement and Con do not effect weapons.

[Mekkah]

Update: I nearly finished playing in Normal Mode, using a pretty normal sized team of 9: Ephraim, Lute, Arthur, Vanessa, Moulder, Gilliam, Garcia, Franz, Seth. Some things I noticed when playing:

- Some mid and late joiners have way too large bases. Now that growths have been ruined, they are just very well off. I nerfed Seth massively by capping his level and gave him stats worse than what Franz can expect to have at 10/1 Paladin. I cut off stats in nearly every aspect by like 4-5, but Duessel still managed to look like a monster, and the same goes for Saleh. Cormag and Tana were looking great compared to my team as well. I will either increase earlyjoiner's bases a bit or nerf those units further, as I'd like it to be a bit more balanced.

- After I got Silver Card, the game went from "alright" to "easy". The fact that lategame drowns you in unneeded promo items, gems and random gold gifts compounds this effect.

- I actually already planned to do this, but mucked it up: Myrrh obviously needs a major nerf. I planned on making her start at L16 instead of L1, for a start, and also reduce her Dragonstone's bonuses, maybe even amount of uses.

- Bosses are assholes. You can bash Skl and Luk all you want for being rather bad stats, but when it comes to throned boss killing, you'll be grateful when you have as much Hit and Avo as possible. People like Vigarde (who actually have Res and 1-2 range) just require luck with Killer, or else trying to hit with ~45 disp hit Hammers. No fun.

It wasn't exactly like I could blindly rush, and sometimes I even had to be very careful (Victims of War, Phantom Ship and Last Hope come to mind), which is a fine difficulty medium. I can imagine it being a pain in the butt in Hard Mode to do these maps now. Things become a lot easier once you get people to promote, which I think is best done ASAP now.

Things I will likely do now:

- Nerf Myrrh and mid/late joiners. This has been explained: they are that good without costing you any money at all, which obviously goes against the point of the game. They should have some reason to be used over earlyjoiners though. I'm fine with them costing less money for better stats, since after all, they come later and have a harder time getting supports. I think I might decrease their level to 1 unpromoted, for starters, which means they have a long way to go before promoting (as it is now, you can level up Cormag once in Eph route, promote him, and basically have a perm team member). Maybe put 0%s in their growths. Maybe hurt them qua support affinities (giving earlyjoiners good affinities like Anima, Fire and Thunder, and mid ones mediocre ones like Ice and Dark, and late ones Wind or something).

- Decrease the cost of promo items. This decreases the amount of money you get to convert to stat goodies in lategame, and also makes unpromoted units relatively better compared to prepromotes, since the main reason to use prepromotes right now, besides weapon levels, is moneysaving (why use Franz if you can use Seth and buy some Energy Rings with the money you saved, etc).

- I might nerf the S-rank weapons. Their 30 uses plus Hammerne just says "fuck you" to the last few levels, especially 18, 20 and Final. For now, I am considering making Hammerne an S-rank staff, lowering the amount of uses, and lowering their Mt so that they're not an insta-KO.

[Mekkah]

I made an IPS patch for people who want to try it, though I haven't really done a lot about the above changes.

If the mediafirelink expires, just PM me for a new one.

http://www.mediafire.com/?s3mhiomqjq7

Edited December 21, 2008 by Mekkah

[Mekkah]

I see there's a huge lack of interest? If no one cares about this, I'll just no longer update it and keep it to myself until I'm satisfied.

[Nintenlord]

Balancing hacks have never been a source of huge interest. Your best chance of making this popular is to make it good and wait for the attention to slowly increase.

[Mekkah]

It's not a balancing hack as much as a change in resource hack (making money important and EXP not important at all), but whatever.

[Celice]

Well, for one, the attention to such projects is usually reserved to extreme fanbases, or more likely, PC games. Either do this project of your own personal gain, or try and seek out a reason for your time elsewhere :/