Jotari

The Life Span of a Loptyr Victim

Recommended Posts

Something I've always been madly curious about is what things were like for the Loptyr royal family in Jugdral's past. We know a dude called Galle was always emperor and he was possessed by an evil dragon god, so he was bound to be a pretty terrible king. But what about all his siblings and uncles etc? They existed, we know of at least Maria and presumably the witch hunts were performed against people with known blood connections to the royal throne. It must be such a strange life to get all this privilege and status, while knowing it's coming from an unabashedly evil entity wearing the corpse of your former son or brother. We see shades of what it could be like in Julius, but it'd be way weirder in an established system where people have lived under those circumstances for generations.

Anyway, something I just noticed on the timeline that adds new light to what things might have been like. The Lopt Empire lasted 200 hundred years, from 448 to 648, in that time they had seventeen emperors named Galle. Which seems like an oddly high number. It means the average length of a rein for any individual emperor was less than 12 years. And any given Galle is basically immune to assassination or just plain accidents thanks to the Loptyr tome, we can assume they all died of natural (or rather supernatural) causes. IE, having an ancient dragon possess you for an extended period of time will kill you in about a dozen years (Lewyn seems to have lasted longer, but I think we can assume Forseti's possession was less aggressive). This also means Julius was basically going to die anyway within the next four or five years regardless as to what Seliph would do, meaning the Lopt Sect probably would have rinsed and repeated the process of possessing a seven year old with Ishtar's hypothetical child (which also lends a bit more credence to the idea that Julius is so obsessed with Ishtar because he's geared to pass on his blood as soon as possible).

It also begs the question, of how you can fit seventeen generations into a span of two hundred years (generally it should be about half that, even in a medieval period). Either a lot of siblings to the various emperors became Galle (which would rise some more questions about the inconsistencies of Holy Blood), or child emperors was basically the norm and they were all reproducing as young teenagers. I guess another possibility is that Loptyr possession doesn't always take and there's a bunch of Galles that only ruled for a month or two that boost the count. 

Or like, Kaga didn't consider these implications at all when he just said the last Galle was Galle XVII. But what do you think of these implications, intentional or otherwise?

Edited by Jotari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt any given Loptyr vessel was completly immune to stuff like assassination attempts. Sure, as long as they have the tome... and that might be it. I would think there may be cases where they didn't have it, or it's a two-step process where getting them to drop the tome first before enacting whatever kills them. Sure, the tome may reduce the amount of damage a sword wound or a magic spell inflicts, but how much protection can it give you if you're pushed off a really high balcony? Assuming you could grip the tome during the fall, as well. Or poison in the wine. Or a lone bowman in a scroll depository as you ride in your carriage.

Point is, something like the Loptyr Empire strikes me as having a very decadent court. The short reigns sound to me like family members killing each other for the throne. Get the drop on a ruling Loptyr Vessel, and either you commit patricide or matricide being the direct heir, or you just kill a cousin or sibling or newphew/niece, then the next vessel kills you later on.

Makes kinda sense to me.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Julius is said to have a very poor health in Tracia so maybe housing Loptyr greatly weakens the host and shortens their life spawn. 

Its also possible that the Galle dynasty was big on incest to keep the bloodline pure. As some real world dynasties can tell you it produces very sickly kings. 

Or loptyr demanded to change hosts the moment one possible victim starts developing greater potential than the current emperor. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think apart from Maera, there actually wasn't any form of bloodline relations of Loptous' own blood. Probably had in-laws, but apart from that, I think it was strictly just one child per generation, with Maera being the one exception. Cause if there were others, Loptous' bloodline would not have been reliant on just Deridre and Arvis.

The witch hunts are not really meant to be targetting actual Loptous bloodline, but rather anyone that was even suspected of being connected to Loptous and his cult. So innocent people could easily have been hunted down. 

Not sure about the lifespan, but it could be the case of how Loptous' particular possession works. I mean, for one thing, Loptous is the ONLY dragon that performed a bloodpact and somehow lost his physical body. We have no idea what happened to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Julius is said to have a very poor health in Tracia so maybe housing Loptyr greatly weakens the host and shortens their life spawn. 

Its also possible that the Galle dynasty was big on incest to keep the bloodline pure. As some real world dynasties can tell you it produces very sickly kings. 

Or loptyr demanded to change hosts the moment one possible victim starts developing greater potential than the current emperor. 

Well they certainly discovered two minor holy bloods create a major one by trying it out at some point.

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think apart from Maera, there actually wasn't any form of bloodline relations of Loptous' own blood. Probably had in-laws, but apart from that, I think it was strictly just one child per generation, with Maera being the one exception. Cause if there were others, Loptous' bloodline would not have been reliant on just Deridre and Arvis.

The witch hunts are not really meant to be targetting actual Loptous bloodline, but rather anyone that was even suspected of being connected to Loptous and his cult. So innocent people could easily have been hunted down. 

Not sure about the lifespan, but it could be the case of how Loptous' particular possession works. I mean, for one thing, Loptous is the ONLY dragon that performed a bloodpact and somehow lost his physical body. We have no idea what happened to it.

Alvis and Manfroy certainly seem to believe he'd be burnt if word got out of his heritage, so I don't think it's at all unlikely there were more people with the blood originally that met their fate in the flames. Innocent people almost certainly burned too (like the in laws for example), but that doesn't mean the guilty people (for a given definition of guilty, they're still pretty blameless just being unfortunate enough to have an evil dragon ancestor) weren't killed as well.

And there's absolutely no evidence that Loptyr lost his body by making the blood bond, to my knowledge. The Lopt tome seems to be, for all intents and purposes, completely the same as the Forseti and Naga tomes (and while we don't know about Forseti, Naga certainly survived the blood bond for another sixty years or so).

Edited by Jotari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well they certainly discovered two minor holy bloods create a major one by trying it out at some point.

Alvis and Manfroy certainly seem to believe he'd be burnt if word got out of his heritage, so I don't think it's at all unlikely there were more people with the blood originally that met their fate in the flames. Innocent people almost certainly burned too (like the in laws for example), but that doesn't mean the guilty people (for a given definition of guilty, they're still pretty blameless just being unfortunate enough to have an evil dragon ancestor) weren't killed as well.

And there's absolutely no evidence that Loptyr lost his body by making the blood bond, to my knowledge. The Lopt tome seems to be, for all intents and purposes, completely the same as the Forseti and Naga tomes (and while we don't know about Forseti, Naga certainly survived the blood bond for another sixty years or so).

Only Manfroy said that. Arvis clearly doesn't seem to indicate that he is entirely fearful. However, there doesn't need to be more Loptous bloods out that there were burned, because humanity itself proved how vicious they were in trying to purge anyone connected to Loptous, so the witch hunts itself was already proof of how Arvis would be burned at the stake if he was connected. 

Whether he actually would be is questionable, since really, Arvis has the Crusader mark of Fjalar, and Minor Blood shows no marks. So Arvis has the Crusader lineage to actually stand at his defense, since why would someone of Crusader lineage be connected to Loptous? No one knows if Arvis would be persecuted if word got out. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. 

Also, based on the words of how things went, all of Maera's descendants underwent a strict code of never bearing more than a single child. And Manfroy indicates that Maera is the very reason that Loptous' bloodline managed to survive since Galle's death effectively cut the direct bloodline. So based on that, nothing indicates that there was anyone beyond Maera and his descendants that had Loptous blood beyond Galle.

The Loptous tome really isn't like Forseti and Naga. Forseti and Naga do have their will implanted into the tomes, but it never occurs much of a reaction. Forseti's acted on its own, but for Loptous, the mere act of a Major Loptous Blood taking his tome has Loptous possessing them and turning them evil immediately. Hell, Loptous actually talks through Julius at Julius' death, something that not even Forseti achieved, as the Lewyn that is in Gen 2 is more of Lewyn's personality mixed with Forseti's will and influence. And again, we have no info about what happened with Loptous' body. The blood pact and tome was done, but then Loptous just never gets mentioned in Archanea. Seems almost like Loptous vanished from Archanea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Only Manfroy said that. Arvis clearly doesn't seem to indicate that he is entirely fearful. However, there doesn't need to be more Loptous bloods out that there were burned, because humanity itself proved how vicious they were in trying to purge anyone connected to Loptous, so the witch hunts itself was already proof of how Arvis would be burned at the stake if he was connected. 

Whether he actually would be is questionable, since really, Arvis has the Crusader mark of Fjalar, and Minor Blood shows no marks. So Arvis has the Crusader lineage to actually stand at his defense, since why would someone of Crusader lineage be connected to Loptous? No one knows if Arvis would be persecuted if word got out. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. 

Also, based on the words of how things went, all of Maera's descendants underwent a strict code of never bearing more than a single child. And Manfroy indicates that Maera is the very reason that Loptous' bloodline managed to survive since Galle's death effectively cut the direct bloodline. So based on that, nothing indicates that there was anyone beyond Maera and his descendants that had Loptous blood beyond Galle.

The Loptous tome really isn't like Forseti and Naga. Forseti and Naga do have their will implanted into the tomes, but it never occurs much of a reaction. Forseti's acted on its own, but for Loptous, the mere act of a Major Loptous Blood taking his tome has Loptous possessing them and turning them evil immediately. Hell, Loptous actually talks through Julius at Julius' death, something that not even Forseti achieved, as the Lewyn that is in Gen 2 is more of Lewyn's personality mixed with Forseti's will and influence. And again, we have no info about what happened with Loptous' body. The blood pact and tome was done, but then Loptous just never gets mentioned in Archanea. Seems almost like Loptous vanished from Archanea.

It's absolutely true that Maria's descendants had a strict one child policy and that his line is the reason Lopt blood survived (enforced by the people of the Spirit Forest more so than Maria's line however, given Cigyun broke the rule). But that doesn't inherently mean Galle's line also had a one child policy. Galle having more than one child each generation makes absolute sense, as does his known decedents getting burned once the Empire collapsed.

Edited by Jotari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's absolutely true that Maria's descendants had a strict one child policy and that his line is the reason Lopt blood survived (enforced by the people of the Spirit Forest more so than Maria's line however, given Cigyun broke the rule). But that doesn't inherently mean Galle's line also had a one child policy. Galle having more than one child each generation makes absolute sense, as does his known decedents getting burned once the Empire collapsed.

Ah, but the issue is that at best it can only be from the last Galle if anything. Otherwise, there's a much higher likelihood of there being Loptous blood surviving beyond needing just Maera. The Loptous cult would go out of their way to protect the bloodline and they were holed up in the Yied Desert. Maera's bloodline was protected by the Maerists, and stayed in Spirit Forest to protect them. 

So the odds of there being no Loptous blood beyond Maera's bloodline is unlikely if there had been more Loptous blood out there, because the cult is dedicated to protecting their god, and those that have that blood would be those that they would try to protect for Loptous' resurrection. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ah, but the issue is that at best it can only be from the last Galle if anything. Otherwise, there's a much higher likelihood of there being Loptous blood surviving beyond needing just Maera. The Loptous cult would go out of their way to protect the bloodline and they were holed up in the Yied Desert. Maera's bloodline was protected by the Maerists, and stayed in Spirit Forest to protect them. 

So the odds of there being no Loptous blood beyond Maera's bloodline is unlikely if there had been more Loptous blood out there, because the cult is dedicated to protecting their god, and those that have that blood would be those that they would try to protect for Loptous' resurrection. 

The very fact that Maria exists means the Imperial Family did have more than one child. The only difference is that Maria was exiled and hidden from public knowledge. The other, non royal, Loptyr decedents would have been powerful nobles like dukes of Veltomher or Edda etc that would have been killed by the crusaders during or after the war. I know what you're saying, if Galle ever had more than one children, there should be lopt blood everywhere, and I do frequently mention how ridiculous it is for characters to have blood connections after a thousand years (Priam is a really egregious case, his connection to Ike on a genetic level is basically non existent unless he came from the Outrealms and is really Ike's grandson or something), but two hundred years is different. Especially when it precludes to royal families that have a vested interest in documenting their blood lines. The idea that they practiced incest, as Etrurian Emperor brought up (and has support in game), would also serve the existence of siblings but also a limit on how wide the family branches out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Female major loptous can be a good explanation.

Celice, Julius, Julia, for example if they all alive, there is a possible future war for a sequel game between them versus Julia's son/husband for the throne. You'll have some very short live emperor.

Anyway, Loptyr is non canon now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Jotari said:

The very fact that Maria exists means the Imperial Family did have more than one child. The only difference is that Maria was exiled and hidden from public knowledge. The other, non royal, Loptyr decedents would have been powerful nobles like dukes of Veltomher or Edda etc that would have been killed by the crusaders during or after the war. I know what you're saying, if Galle ever had more than one children, there should be lopt blood everywhere, and I do frequently mention how ridiculous it is for characters to have blood connections after a thousand years (Priam is a really egregious case, his connection to Ike on a genetic level is basically non existent unless he came from the Outrealms and is really Ike's grandson or something), but two hundred years is different. Especially when it precludes to royal families that have a vested interest in documenting their blood lines. The idea that they practiced incest, as Etrurian Emperor brought up (and has support in game), would also serve the existence of siblings but also a limit on how wide the family branches out.

4
23 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its also possible that the Galle dynasty was big on incest to keep the bloodline pure. As some real world dynasties can tell you it produces very sickly kings. 

 

Honestly, whether there was ever any form of incest is questionable. This is because Holy Blood doesn't have a case of being a purity bloodline. Arvis and Deirdre needed to because they were Minor Bloods, but other than that, if you have Major Blood, that's it. There's no need for the practice of incest. 

Also, given the noble lineages, people always try and trace these things very much, and for Jugdral, this would no doubt be far more practiced because of the Crusaders. Also this also comes in regards to cases of the divine weapons as well. Only those of Marth's bloodline can wield Falchion, and before him, there was Marth's grandfather Marcelus and his brother Anri, the latter being the user of Falchion. 

This kind of practice would always allow the lineage to remain in check and thus not worry about dying out, unless the last heir is killed.

Also, in regards to Ike, Chrom literally states in the paralogue that Ike is from another world. And there's no confirmation on whether Priam is Ike's descendant or not, but either way, he does exist, has blue hair like Ike, has a tattered and worn out red cape that actually looks like the one that Ike once wore, and has Ragnell. There's a lot of things he has that indicates that at the very least, Priam has connections to Ike. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2018 at 11:35 AM, hanhnn said:

Female major loptous can be a good explanation.

Celice, Julius, Julia, for example if they all alive, there is a possible future war for a sequel game between them versus Julia's son/husband for the throne. You'll have some very short live emperor.

Anyway, Loptyr is non canon now.

Neither Seliph nor Julia carry Loptyr blood so I'm not sure how that would bring any more conflicts with regards to the Loptyr cult. Also what do you mean that Loptyr isn't cannon? I guess he's called Loptous now if that's what you're going for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/14/2018 at 8:29 AM, Newtype Eldigan said:

Neither Seliph nor Julia carry Loptyr blood so I'm not sure how that would bring any more conflicts with regards to the Loptyr cult. Also what do you mean that Loptyr isn't cannon? I guess he's called Loptous now if that's what you're going for.

It is for your reference, just replace Narga with Loptous, it is the same situation.

The major holy blood royal member did not get the throne, he has all the right to claim the throne from his minor holy blood uncle, regardless if he is Loptous or Narga descendant.

He has the power of the tome, he has the right to rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

It is for your reference, just replace Narga with Loptous, it is the same situation.

The major holy blood royal member did not get the throne, he has all the right to claim the throne from his minor holy blood uncle, regardless if he is Loptous or Narga descendant.

He has the power of the tome, he has the right to rule.

What are you talking about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jotari said:

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about how they can have that many emperors in such a short period of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

I'm talking about how they can have that many emperors in such a short period of time.

Ah. So you're suggesting their were several minor blood emperors that were deposed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say, that's my guess as well. I picture the Loptyrean court as too decadent to have stable transitions, or Emperors ruling for long. Probably even the Major holders get killed, as I don't think they're that resilient, even with the tome...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say, that's my guess as well. I picture the Loptyrean court as too decadent to have stable transitions, or Emperors ruling for long. Probably even the Major holders get killed, as I don't think they're that resilient, even with the tome...

Now that I consider it, Julius' had a lot of fevers that would have been a great weakness for him. Even if the tome makes them invincible in battle, there's little they can do to defend themselves when their racked with fever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it should be important to consider when the Loptous tome is passed down too. I assume only one person can be possessed at a time so whenever the crown prince comes of age they are granted the tome and the current emperor loses their power. I guess it would be during this time that their now-possessed son would kill them or seize power themselves. This would make sense since Julius got the Loptous tome some time before gen 2 begins, so it would have only been a matter of time before he declared himself emperor as asserted direct control, even though he was clearly calling the shots instead of Arvis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Newtype Eldigan said:

I think it should be important to consider when the Loptous tome is passed down too. I assume only one person can be possessed at a time so whenever the crown prince comes of age they are granted the tome and the current emperor loses their power. I guess it would be during this time that their now-possessed son would kill them or seize power themselves. This would make sense since Julius got the Loptous tome some time before gen 2 begins, so it would have only been a matter of time before he declared himself emperor as asserted direct control, even though he was clearly calling the shots instead of Arvis.

So you're suggesting Loptyr actually frees his host at some point and lets them continue as emperor? I don't see that as likely. You'd also still run into the question as to how you can fit seventeen generations in two hundred years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.