Rate The Unit - #24 Haar

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

@Oz ♠
As for someone who knows about Edward's potential, it'd be kinda unfair if my rating is based on manipulating the RNG.
As I said he needs strength and speed in the prologue. Otherwise it'll become only harder to make use of his potential. hard mode is not made for babying units and exp. sharing since the exp. gain is lower than on normal, and the DB has no place for units with crappy stats.
This is also why I discredit Aran in HM because his poor speed growth can't cover his high defense. 
I'll give you that Nolan also can be screwed if he doesn't level strength or speed early on. I had some playthroughs when he got doubled.  Still even if he should be unusable for some Point, just his Support unit makes it worth to be brought.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Hecatia Lapislazuli

[Junkhead]

10 minutes ago, Hecatia Lapislazuli said:

@Oz ♠
As for someone who knows about Edward's potential, it'd be kinda unfair if my rating is based on manipulating the RNG.
As I said he needs strength and speed in the prologue. Otherwise it'll become only harder to make use of his potential. hard mode is not made for babying units and exp. sharing since the exp. gain is lower than on normal, and the DB has no place for units with crappy stats.
This is also why I discredit Aran in HM because his poor speed growth can't cover his high defense. 
I'll give you that Nolan also can be screwed if he doesn't level strength or speed early on. I had some playthroughs when he got doubled.  Still even if he should be unusable for some Point, just his Support unit makes it worth to be brought.

I don't factor things like RNG in terms of stats for discussion. We had a protocol here at SF where we used averages, back then. At least that's what I go for. While it makes it harder for Edward to get kill if he isn't doubling, it's not impossible. I think I just had him share kills with Micaiah and Nolan or something. I also used Wrath strategically, where it would help as well as speed certain things up.

Like I said, I'll just get to it when I can actually show it.

[Dunal]

4 hours ago, Oz ♠ said:

This is what I was talking about. Too much emphasis goes into how bad/mediocre he is in his earlygame, rather than how good he is once he gets a chance to shine (which, like most them, is past Part 1).

Fiona can shine. So can Meg (with the Brave/Killing Sword) by part 3. Pretty much any unit can become powerful with a lot of investment. That's usually how FE works so the way Edward turns out isn't anything special. Sure, he's easier to raise than the aforementioned (which is one reason he'd be rated quite a bit higher) but between having issues doubling, taking axes to the face as opposed to dodging them, the non-existant BEXP and lower combat EXP, hard mode is not kind to Edward at all.

A lot of emphasis goes in how units start off as because it can completely dictate their momentum: A unit who starts good will get more EXP on the basis of contributing more (when playing naturally and not force-feeding kills for the sake of equality). That means that they will grow more and maintain their momentum over someone who might have better growths but struggles to receive kills unless you actively change the way you play (during harder portions of the game) just for the sake of benefiting them specifically. 

If you force feed kills to a unit because they aren't very good, then you're going to be playing sub-optimally to do so, or in a manner that is harder to pull off. And strategy/gameplay that is harder is really the basis of how units are rated. Ultimately it comes down to how easier/harder do they make the game. Edward is at his worst at arguably the hardest part in the entire game, so forgiving him for that so he can turn into juggernaut later on (which most units can eventually pull off) is a perspective that not a lot of people are going to agree on. And what breaks the game the most is dual-earth supports, which is why someone like Nolan, Volug or Zihark can cheese part 3 the easiest, so again, Edward isn't doing anything special. An earth partner + Caladbolg is a decent setup on him, don't get me wrong. It just doesn't stand-out as the absolute best way to manage your resources/investment. All the EXP Edward is receiving in Part 1 means a weaker Nolan/Jill/Micaiah/Aran etc... Growth units come at that price as well, especially in hard mode. You can only afford to train 2 or 3 units to a huge extent, where the game promotes low-manning rather than the alternative. 

He's not a bad unit though, especially if he gets some good levels very early on. Even a single level from the Prologue can completely dictate his momentum and how he can be utilized as a result. That will end up netting him more kills and allow him to snowball. 

I may have been conservative with my rating here as I don't think 6/10 is unreasonable. He's a case where his first level or two can be the difference between a 5 or a 7. He's that flimsy.

 

Nolan is an opposite case of this where his bases are good to the point where it's just outright easier to feed him kills (and doing so comes naturally to how you can clear these early maps with the least amount of effort) with a lot less reliance on RNG (which is why having decent bases is such a good factor). So between that and having good growths as well, earth support, a stronger 1-2 option (that can be forged later on -- which is also why I don't think Swordmasters are that good even in this game; just a lot better than they usually are especially compared to FE9) and Tarvos, he's going to be the better unit,  but a lot of the latter things I listed are no where near as important as having a good start -- it makes or breaks units in FE especially since early parts of the game are usually more challenging and resource allocation is much tighter.

I'll give Nolan an 8/10 and I honestly believe that the earth affinity gives him an entire extra point here. He's part of a trio that can make Part 3 much easier than it ought to be, to put it simply. 

 

I would have rated Leonardo a 4.5 since he has some useful contribution early on and can be useful in part 3 with minimal investment (which is an incredibly nice trait to have in HM and why he's probably better here than in NM, much like Micaiah). He only needs to hit 15 SPD to double tigers and can one-shot with beastfoe + bowgun at 10/1 in order to contribute. He has some decent contribution in 1-5 and 1-6 regardless of investment as well (due to ledges/fliers). With investment he's okay long-term if only because Marksman is a good class, even with his wonky growths. However it would make Part 3 notably more difficult without cheesing with VolugXZihark. Still, Lughnasadh saves both his ATK and AS should you really want to use him; his growths aren't so bad that they screw him over to a huge degree. Still an archer however, and lack of enemy phase (for the most part) is why he most definitely doesn't deserve higher.

Worth mentioning that I would probably rate him 2/10 in the JP version. Those few extra levels (both him and Edward are LV1) + Lughnasadh make quite a huge difference for him. 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Dunal

[Sturm]

Hopefully no one minds if I rate the units from the previous days, I'll spoiler it anyway:

Micaiah: 7.5/10

Spoiler

I think Micaiah is a fairly underrated unit as some others have said, which I would mostly attribute to her lack of certain stats and being such a fragile unit who causes a game over if she dies would tend to put her in a bad light, however I think she has quite a few things going for her. Firstly having 1-2 range is very nice something that most Lord characters don't have thanks to being Sword-locked so she has more versatility. Second Thani is actually The Bomb literally , comparing it to most prefs it clearly blows them out the water and makes her able to OHKO almost anything it's effective against even if she's lacking in levels something the likes of Roy could never dream of. Her affinity is also very good and the automatic A with Sothe is great arguably as much or maybe even more so for him as he appreciates the 2 damage a lot in HM from what I remember. Promoting to Staves is a big boon for her as well as it allows her to contribute well even if the player doesn't want to expose her to enemies for fear of a game over. Having a Lord be able to provide a supporting role is a good choice I feel for this exact reason. 

Micaiah can be a very powerful combat unit with a bit of luck and risk with the power of Resolve or sometimes Wrath, which she has a very high priority on IMO. She absolutely needs it to do anything on Enemy Phase, however I will say that on Hard Mode it's a lot more difficult to get her to the required bench marks as firstly obviously the enemies are stronger but also you don't have the luxury of BEXP dumping to get her to the necessary stats. Therefore you're probably going to need to 'get lucky' with some levels so that she gets out of her bad start in time. Lastly she's actually amazing if you like saving turns probably the best Lord character for that to be honest.

Edward: 6/10

Spoiler

Eddy is a bit of a tough one I think, as has already been said he really relies on those first few levels, if he gets 2-3 Strength and Speed in his first few levels and preferably some Defence as well he can take off and become a monster but if he doesn't he just can't keep up with the pace and of course lack of weapon triangle probably hurts him more than anyone else allowing him to do his patented 'tank axe with face' routine, he also has to deal with Wind Edges for Part 1, I think you can get a Storm Sword in 3-6 or 3-12 from the Bargains and then he can get a Tempest Blade later but there are only 2 with a mere 20 uses so he doesn't have the luxury of 8 forged Hand Axes which again brings him down. His affinity is kind of good on paper with the extra defence but I don't think it will make him take an extra hit in many cases but it could be good for a unit like Nolan who probably could take an extra hit with it from time to time. I'm going with a 6 as I feel like he has potential but if he doesn't get off the ground Zihark is there and there really is no point in using Eddy unless you really want the extra bit of late game potential Eddy has.

Leonardo: 3.5/10

Spoiler

I kind of have a soft spot for Leo after he did so much work in Normal Mode but the emphasis there is on Normal Mode. There you have the luxury of just dumping him full of BEXP and making him good that way but on Hard Mode there's just no way that's happening. He just doesn't really have any potential to go anywhere, that said he isn't useless, he can provide chip damage even if very slight which on Hard Mode is probably worth a lot, again going off memory here, which alone makes him useful at least until around 1-5 or so. His Water affinity is one of the best and he can get quick supports with the other DB members so having him support Nolan or Eddy is very good for them more so than him but you probably can deploy him for the Bonus and to help set up kills for them to feed on that alone makes him worth something when experience is so precious. Lughnasadh is really good but it's not really worth getting him to the point where he can double stuff with it, still it's very good chip for Part 3, plus he can double Aura's with it if he somehow gets capped Speed which is pretty funny.

Nolan: 8/10

Spoiler

Nolan the Hero the Dawn Brigade desperately need well at least for like one map before all the other Heroes start rolling in and making him look like a chump. Still he's a very good unit and one of the best growth unit's in the DB who are starved for experience so you're probably going to be using people like Zihark, Sothe and Tauroneo at least while he's around. While Eddy is in that very fragile position of being just on the cusp of greatness, well Nolan is kind of there too but he's a lot more towards the 'I win' side of it than Eddy is. He can take some punishment not an awful lot but he can take some and that makes him able to get that ever precious experience. Earth is great as everyone knows and he uses Axes which are even more broken on Hard Mode. Much like Eddy he needs those first few important procs but his Strength growth is not as great as Eddy's is making him more prone to not getting those much needed gains. If you want to use Nolan then almost certainly he should get the Energy Drop and Dragon Shield as soon as possible but Jill would have more of a priority for them so if you are using her that would bring him down a lot. Reaver late game is probably the best Beorc Class and probably by extension the best Class in all, unless you're talking about the final few maps then lolroyals but still one of the best even then. You're probably going to want to train at least one of the first tier unit's in the DB and Nolan is the second best choice after Jill I would say just pray his Strength cooperates. Innate Nihil is good on paper but it doesn't really combo with anything because almost all the enemies you need it against also have there own NIhil in the form of Mantle so it doesn't pair with anything, also on that note Reavers have 30 Capacity compared to most Beorc's 25 which means they can make some neat skill Combos that most other Classes can't get if only Resolve were as good as in PoR...

 

[SavageVolug]

Ok, I'll share my thoughts on both Leonardo and Nolan starting first with Leonardo. Because like most archers in the series Leonardo can only attack on player phase excluding the occassional set up of forcing the enemy to attack at range Leonardo' contribution to the team is not the best. He's an alright support unit of supplying chip damage and weakening the enemy before having a frontline unit go in for the kill. Leonardo suffers from not doing really good damage so if he's going to get kills they practically have to be fed to him, he doesn't do enough damage to kill the bandits and he's not exactly a speedy guy. If you want to invest in him he will become a decent Sniper (where he get's access to crossbows which is helpful) and eventually Marksman. The problem is there are other candidates who at base show MUCH better potential for investing than Leonardo. And investing in Leonardo is hard to justify on Hard mode, on Normal it's not really a big deal but you need to be very selective in who you invest in on Hard. There are only a couple reasons I can think of to invest in Leo. 1) wanting a Sniper for the Dawn Brigade 2) Wanting Leo to be able to use the Brave Bow (there's a DB fog of war chapter where a unit can find a Brave Bow). For the record the Leo specific bow that he gets is NO DIFFERANT from the Silencer that Shinon gives to Rolf or that you can buy. I've compared the stats of these two weapons and they are identical. It's simply the Silencer with a fancier name. In light of all of this I'd probably give Leonardo a 3.5 rating maybe a 4 if I'm feeling generous.

Onto Nolan. Nolan on both Normal and Hard mode will provide some much needed muscle. He has enough HP to survive being attacked a few differant times, and he hits hard. His relevance though will be dependant on whether he's able to get some speed. He SHOULD get speed, but this does not always happen. He will be your tank till you recruit someone better suited to the job. Nolan is a very solid unit and I can't imagine ever not using him. He's a fighter who hits hard and actually is pretty accurate unlike most of them. On Hard mode steel will weigh Nolan down more so you may want to consider giving him at least an Iron Axe instead preferably a forged Iron Axe, you should be able to do this without dipping into your funds too heavily. Provided Nolan levels speed like he's suppossed to (which doesn't always happen) he will be the accurate and fast fighter. Nolan is overall a solid unit that will see you through to the end. But on Hard Mode especially he is going to need that speed. Of the two possible Reavers in the game Nolan usually activate Collossus more frequently due to his higher skill, and the Tarvos is a good axe. Though I personally favor the Urvas. I'd give him hmmm.....I'll say a 7.5. Definatly a unit worth investing in, trust me the Dawn Brigade is going to need all the muscle they can get.

[Dunal]

2 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

For the record the Leo specific bow that he gets is NO DIFFERANT from the Silencer that Shinon gives to Rolf or that you can buy. I've compared the stats of these two weapons and they are identical. It's simply the Silencer with a fancier name.

It gives Leo +5 SPD. It means that he can double tigers in part 3 with only 15 SPD.

It does allow him to be more useful with less investment, which is why I actually think he's better in HM than in NM. Everyone is free deployed in part 3 so its generally good to maximise the usefulness of everyone, aside from obviously funneling most EXP/resources in 2 or 3 units. Leo can function as half a unit in terms of investment and can be pretty good with either Lugh or the Bravebow. Or Beastfoe + Bowgun to 1-shot everything, which he can even do at 10/1 no matter what his stats are. And getting him to level 10 in part 1 is possible even if you mostly only use him to chip. Assuming he gets a level for attacking 10-12 times, he can promote without taking many kills. That means he's far more useful than other units without heavily investment which, much like Micaiah, makes him better than you'd expect in HM. 

[SavageVolug]

1 hour ago, Dunal said:

It gives Leo +5 SPD. It means that he can double tigers in part 3 with only 15 SPD.

It does allow him to be more useful with less investment, which is why I actually think he's better in HM than in NM. Everyone is free deployed in part 3 so its generally good to maximise the usefulness of everyone, aside from obviously funneling most EXP/resources in 2 or 3 units. Leo can function as half a unit in terms of investment and can be pretty good with either Lugh or the Bravebow. Or Beastfoe + Bowgun to 1-shot everything, which he can even do at 10/1 no matter what his stats are. And getting him to level 10 in part 1 is possible even if you mostly only use him to chip. Assuming he gets a level for attacking 10-12 times, he can promote without taking many kills. That means he's far more useful than other units without heavily investment which, much like Micaiah, makes him better than you'd expect in HM. 

I stand corrected then. I never noticed that the bow Leo gets increased his speed. And I agree with what you say about using everyone when they are deployed anyway.

[Modamy]

Nolan

He's got really solid bulk for the early game to withstand several rounds of combat before needing to be healed as well as enough speed to at least not get doubled.His growths gear him towards being fast with middling strength. Despite his head start Nolan is still a growth unit and can be screwed over by his growths not giving him enough strength to stay relevant damage wise. In part 3 he obtains Tarvos as a personal weapon which buffs his def by 4, which further cements his role as a tank. Even if he lacks the ability to kill reliably he can take enough hits and allow someone else to finish the job. In hard mode he's easily one of the most reliable of the Dawn Brigade members. I actually prefer Boyd as my Reaver of choice, but I don't bench Nolan on the Dawn Brigade's maps as he's able to remain relevant for all of part 3. He gets a 8/10 for his amazing early game, decent mid game, but shaky late game due to his lower strength growth.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Laura
level 1 priest
skills: -
affinity: wind


bases (growths)
HP: 16 (45%)
strength: 3 (20%)
Magic: 8 (70%)
skill: 3 (70%)
speed: 5 (70%)
luck: 8 (50%)
defense: 2 (20%)
resistance: 10 (35%)


bases 3 / 10 (30%)
Laura joins with fitting bases for her Level, but the Major Thing is that she starts at Level 1. She has basically Micaiah's bases with the difference of joining two chapters after her. That means each enemy will ORKO her. 


growths 7 / 10 (20%)
Laura has fantasticgrowths overall (70% in magic, skill, speed!!!). Her speed is even higher than Mia's or Marcia's. However first she can't really benefit from them for leveleing extremly slow, and second her crappy caps (15 speed for a priest) ruin her growths. I gave -1 in total for these two issues.


usefulness 7 / 10 (50%)
She's your main healer for the DB and will do her job fine. Keep her safe from any range enemy and you will be fine. Technically she's only really helpful in part 3 for using mend, recover and physic since you can beat part 1 without healer easily. If you can't bring everyone to a chapter, i recommend to leave her home and give the exp. to the combat units. Laura won't see combat anyways due to her ridiculous low exp. gain, and even if she's promoted via mastercrown, her damage output would be terrible by starting with light tomes. 
 

overall 5.8

Edited June 21, 2018 by Hecatia Lapislazuli

[Dunal]

Laura's your only staff user in Part 1 which makes her pretty good by default. Her stats don't really matter aside from her low movement and tendency to be 1RKOed, so you just need to keep her safe. However, healing items are extremely potent and plentiful in this game so the value of a staff user is lower here as a result. Laura essentially exists to free up someone's turn so they don't have to self-heal but her low movement means it's usually the better option to do the latter anyway. There also aren't a lot of variety in staves in Part 1 in particular; no physics for example in order to make up for her lack of range. Still, she serves a useful purpose that is relevant throughout the entire game and is a solid filler unit even in Part 4. 

As a combat unit her slow growth and caps do let her down -- if you're playing fairly efficiently she really isn't going to get to a point where she's performing really well unless you give her a lot of BEXP or something, which is a bad investment in HM. And in the long-run, the payoff isn't too great either.

6/10. She'll be useful no matter what and there's no real reason not to use/deploy her, even if she's a pretty flawed unit overall. But anyone who's useful without investment deserves at least this rating I feel. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Dunal

[Modamy]

Laura

She's a walking heal staff. Laura is your only healer in part 1 aside from Micaiah using Sacrifice. She is not a combat unit so the fact that almost every enemy destroys her doesn't really matter and if she is left open and attacked it's your own fault. Laura has pretty impressive growths and would become a better Micaiah if it weren't for her exp gain being abysmally slow. You could get her to promotion with bonus exp, but there are so many other more worthwhile units who could use it that are already making contributions that the only units Laura takes priority over are the absolute bottom of the barrel (Fiona and Meg even Leonardo beats her out). This means she basically has no hope of even reaching level 10 to use a master seal before part 1 is over unless you play pretty slowly.

In Part 3 Micaiah who gains c rank staves on promotion becomes your primary healer and does a better job than Laura. If you did manage to promote Laura she starts off with E rank light magic and considering her less than spectacular bulk you aren't going to leave her exposed to the multiple enemies on enemy phase to raise it. There are also units with a much higher claim to the arms scrolls in the game due to magic being pretty underwhelming in Endgame anyway.

Laura is nothing more than a heal staff. Her endgame potential puts her above Rhys, but Rhys requires much less work to do the same job. Micaiah instantly becomes better than her in part 3. Despite all this Laura is not a bad unit, she uses staves and supports the frontline units and that is always appreciated she's just not particularly better at it than anybody else. Since she does her job as a staff bot and nothing else she gets a 6/10.

[MacLovin]

laura gets a 4/10.

Useful since it's the DB, but not really a necessity to pump resources into long term. Even if we think about light magic, then Micaiah has that covered. Staves? Rhys/Mist/Etc. have that covered without taking early resources from the DB.

 

Her growths are good, but her class line is crap for caps. 

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

#6 Sothe
level 1 rogue
skills: guard
affinity: wind


bases (growths)
HP: 35 (30%)
strength: 18 (60%)
magic: 4 (20%)
skill: 20 (80%)
speed: 20 (45%)
luck:15 (65%)
defense: 15 (20%)
resistance: 9 (30%)


bases 11 / 10 (30%) 
Sothe is the unit the DB needs. Someone who can tank everything and prepare kills for the lower leveled units. He's the perfect non mounted Jagen statwise.


growths 4.5 / 10 (20%)
His growths wouldn't matter, if he wasn't forced for the endgame. He has good growths in the stats with the lowest caps, his speed is mediocre and his defense is terrible. 


usefulness 9 / 10 (50%)
With his bases it's almost impossible to get killed. He can easily solo the maps till 1-7. However he exists as lifesaver of the DB and to give the kills to his comrades. Furthermore he Can steal which is nice since part 1 offers some goodies (discipline, master seal) and chests. In part 3 his usefulness will take a massive drop by having an equal or even worse enemy phase than units like Volug, Jill, supported Zihark and maybe Nolan. He will get 2RKO'ed by tigers while he normally can't double the cats. He's still good in PP with the beastfoe, but not better than other DBs in EP. In part 4 he's basically not existent. His classchange to third tier is too late and 4-3 is a chapter where he usually doesn't see any combat at all. Still his perfomance in part 1 has higher weight than the others because the DB is lacking on strong and tanky units.


overall 8.7

Edited June 25, 2018 by Hecatia Lapislazuli

[Junkhead]

He's the best throughout the hardest parts of the game, packing great mobility, decent offense (with range, thanks to forges) and has the added thief utility (again, all throughout Part 1). 2 of his 3 chapters of Part 3 still remain decent-ish, if only for having access to Beastkiller (granted, he's still 2HKO'd by everything without that much Avo). His Part 4 is non-existent, but it's not like it'd add to much either way.

9.

[Modamy]

Sothe ends up being the very definition of a Jagen not by his growth rates, but by his class. The combination of his class caps and weapon type make it guaranteed that while Sothe is amazing when he first shows up he will be outperformed by most other units. It's pretty ingenious to make your Jagen a thief, a class not really suited to combat just guarantee that fact. The problem comes in part 4 endgame when he is force deployed during a part of the game when a thief doesn't help you that much.

As a unit Sothe is fantastic in part 1 and can pretty much solo maps and feed kills to weaker units because of his weaker weapons holding back his kill potential. In part 3 the enemies pick up and Sothe starts to struggle, but if you managed to get him a beastkiller he'll easily hold out as long as he's not left open to too many tigers. Even with a forced promotion in part 4 Sothe's combat will only be passable as it starts to become really apparent that he shouldn't be a combat unit. Sothe forced deployment and death being a fail condition for every map he is available until part 4's endgame makes it impossible to lose him.

Sothe's forced deployment and poor class for combat make the other units in his class line irrelevant so he has no real competition unless you just need to have Heather or Volke in your endgame team. While Sothe falls off no one can ignore his amazing job in the early game as a Jagen so from me, he get's a 9/10.

[Junkhead]

On 9/6/2018 at 11:14 AM, Dunal said:

Fiona can shine. So can Meg (with the Brave/Killing Sword) by part 3. Pretty much any unit can become powerful with a lot of investment. That's usually how FE works so the way Edward turns out isn't anything special. Sure, he's easier to raise than the aforementioned (which is one reason he'd be rated quite a bit higher) but between having issues doubling, taking axes to the face as opposed to dodging them, the non-existant BEXP and lower combat EXP, hard mode is not kind to Edward at all.

I'm not saying everything else you just said doesn't have actual validity, but I just can't help but call bullshit on this. lol

You're actually comparing him to those two? That's hell of an exaggeration. "Meg can shine"? You mean when she starts getting doubled and 1RKO'd by virtually anything that isn't a Myrmidon? On top of having shaky hitrates at times? Edward also has a whole 4 chapters before her. And while I agree it doesn't mean much in his state (as in needing +Spd levels to get momentum), it's still an advantage. Not to mention I didn't get to the worst part, which involves her horrendous 2nd tier Spd cap as a General...of 22. What the hell are you doing with that? What are you doing with that in NM, even? Did I mention that she's a Knight, and she's also going to be falling behind because of a mobility disadvantage? And, again, you just can't compare Edward's availability advantage which at least easily allows him to top her off, let alone with how Exp distribution works on HM.

Don't even get me started on Fiona. You thought Meg had it worse? Fiona is an insult to Meg. Arrives completely underleveled on top of mediocre stats. And it's not like feeding her kills does a ton, considering you only have that one single chapter (1-7) to do so before Endgame. She literally doesn't exist in 1-8. And if you are actually feeding her kills, you're forgetting she struggles to 3-4HKO...top of questionable hitrates. And she's still underlevele. And like Meg, this isn't the worst part- or is it? Because terrain sure isn't doing her any favours.

 

so, uh. Yeah. I'm not denying you were doing pretty well with your arguement, if you didn't start with that and just went with "units are better as to how easier they make the game". You can actually train Edward in HM LTC without him getting in the way and being 2nd MVP next to Jill. If anything, Nolan is mildly overrated for his 3 or so chapters of glory. He struggles to get out of 2HKO'd territory from Tigers and it's not like his dodging is all that reliable, even with double Earth shenanigans. He may as well be competing with Leo at that point. Not like his 3-12 & Part 4 kick off without being heavily overleveled (since his Spd base is hard to get off the ground).

 

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Oz ♠

[Dunal]

3 hours ago, Oz ♠ said:

You're actually comparing him to those two? That's hell of an exaggeration. "Meg can shine"? You mean when she starts getting doubled and 1RKO'd by virtually anything that isn't a Myrmidon? On top of having shaky hitrates at times? Edward also has a whole 4 chapters before her. And while I agree it doesn't mean much in his state (as in needing +Spd levels to get momentum), it's still an advantage. Not to mention I didn't get to the worst part, which involves her horrendous 2nd tier Spd cap as a General...of 22. What the hell are you doing with that? What are you doing with that in NM, even? Did I mention that she's a Knight, and she's also going to be falling behind because of a mobility disadvantage? And, again, you just can't compare Edward's availability advantage which at least easily allows him to top her off, let alone with how Exp distribution works on HM.

Don't even get me started on Fiona. You thought Meg had it worse? Fiona is an insult to Meg. Arrives completely underleveled on top of mediocre stats. And it's not like feeding her kills does a ton, considering you only have that one single chapter (1-7) to do so before Endgame. She literally doesn't exist in 1-8. And if you are actually feeding her kills, you're forgetting she struggles to 3-4HKO...top of questionable hitrates. And she's still underlevele. And like Meg, this isn't the worst part- or is it? Because terrain sure isn't doing her any favours.

Kinda focusing on this point a bit much -- the whole idea that "Edward's potential is worth it" doesn't really mean/say much in a similar way it wouldn't to those other units in the strictly long-term, only in a less extreme case (hence why I specified that he's still obviously a lot better than them). But the whole idea is that even Meg can double tigers in Part 3 (by being 20/1 which are a majority of enemies, and wouldn't double cats (like Edward) regardless (her cap of 22 is actually rather insignificant within the context of Part 3 in particular). Edward needs to be 20/10 to double cats which is a massive stretch in HM. Meg needs to be 20/1 to double/quad tigers and all their other stats are pretty similar (aside from Meg's 6 DEF lead vs Edward's SKL). Their performance as a whole isn't really that different (which isn't a compliment to Meg, more-so an insult to Edward since he doesn't notably shine in either offence or durability), and neither can abuse double earth, so it's just that Edward takes less effort to reach it... but HM it's still a massive investment regardless since you can only afford to train 2-3 units extensively.

Regardless, it was merely the whole counterpoint against the whole "potential" thing which doesn't apply too well in FE10. Fiona is probably the best Part 4 paladin given enough investment, but it really doesn't matter in the end and has almost zero baring on her rating (in much the same way that Edward's part 3 performance doesn't do too much to his as well). It's less so comparing the units, but the whole idea behind that units are rated highly because of said potential. Of course, Edward being more usable in Part 1 makes him better of course (in which I'd happily give him 6/10 compared to the ~3/10 I'd give Meg and ~1.5 for Fiona), but his performance there isn't anything notable at all -- the fact that not only is he squishy, but needs to be RNG blessed to keep doubling, as well as lack of strong 2-range. And I'm not sure how he's getting 2nd MVP with Sothe, Volug or Zihark around.

4 hours ago, Oz ♠ said:

He may as well be competing with Leo at that point.

And that isn't a bit of an exaggeration? Nolan with double earth has 96 AVO (at 20/3) and tigers have 135 hit for a 39% rate (~34% true) along with being able to survive two hits with a Seraph Robe (same with Aran and Meg -- only Volug/Tauroneo can survive without) unlike Edward (in which the latter faces 50% hit rates with earth + Caladbolg, which is still pretty good to be fair). Can one-shot with bowgun/beastfoe as a possibility as well. The only drawback is that he needs a Speedwing to hit 20 SPD at 20/1 to double tigers outside of that set-up. While Edward needs two robes and a Dracoshield to survive two Tiger hits at 20/1. And with those comparisons Nolan's going to have the level lead in his favor. 

With Tarvos his durability is significantly better against cats or enemies in 3-12. Edward gets 3RKOed by cats (given average ATK of 25). Nolan is 6RKOed. This is if neither get boosters. Nolan's downside here is that he needs 19 SPD to not be doubled but that's his average at 20/1 and he's probably a bit higher than that.

That's hardly comparable to Leo (a unit who only has player phase) let alone being worse than Edward to begin with (not really true). Heck, given that Meg can survive two hits with a robe, some argument could be made that her performance is similar (except not quite since she's likely to be 2-3 levels behind and getting to 20/1 with her is make or break and not even guaranteed... but not far off).

 

Also, I rate Sothe 9/10.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

#7 Ilyana
level 12 thunder mage
bases (growths)
HP: 22 (55%)
strength: 6 (45%)
magic: 12 (50%)
skill: 12 (60%)
speed: 13 (30%)
luck: 6 (40%)
defense: 3 (30%)
resistance: 9 (50%9


no transfers

bases 5.5 / 10 (30%)
Her bases are solid at this time she joins. Especially her speed is really good (Micaiah might hit that at level 20). She can take a hit by everyone and even double and ORKO the steel axe fighters. However if she doesn't level speed in this chapter - which is very unlikely - her bases aren't much more worth in the upcoming chapters.


growths 3.5 / 10 (20%)
She's a solid magic, strength and resistance growth, but her major Problem is what applies to many magic users in FE10: She's slow, has even the second lowest speed growth of all Beorcs (behind Sigrun). It doesn't matter much for part 1 since her base speed will catch it up, but for part 3 it's unworkable.


usefulness 4 / 10 (50%)
She's a welcome filler unit in the very first chapters. She's a better chipper than Leo and could massively weaken some tigers with 10AS in 1-4, if she leveled one time in speed at least. However she's not needed anymore when you can't bring everyone to a map anymore. The DB definetely needs the exp. more than her, so there's no spot for her in the lategame of part 1 anymore. At the end her only purpose is to work as caravan to carry the goodies from the DB to the GM's. As a combat unit she doesn't exist anymore because she will be outleveled by Soren. It doesn't change anything that she's the only potential user of rexbolt. It's only good for one single chapter anyways.
Lightning increaes her hitrate which is helpful since thunder is inaccurate. On the other hand it increases her defense which is pointless on her.
Shade is a shady skill. I still haven't figured how and when it activates. It can prevent from a fatal hit, but doesn't all the time. I have to ask IS for this.


Overall 4.35



with transfers (magic, skill, speed)

bases 7 (30%)
Especially with a speed boost Ilyana is really good. In her joining chapter she can ORKO almost everyone and in 1-4 she can double the 10 AS tigers. Even later she can double the one or other enemy like some cavaliers in 1-6-2.


usefulness 5 (50%)
Since she has the ability to ORKO more enemies, she Can level faster. If she's lucky with her speed, she could be usable in part 3. 


growths 3.5 (20%)
Same as stated above.


Overall 5.3


I rated Sothe a bit better afterwards. Also considering to rank him with Transfer boosts since I will do it for everyone who also appears in FE9.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Hecatia Lapislazuli

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

#8 Aran
level 7 soldier
skills: -
affinity: thunder


bases (growths)
HP: 24 (50%)
strength: 10 (75%)
Magic: 0 (10%)
skill: 12 (70%)
speed: 10 (35%)
luck: 6 (35%)
defense: 11 (70%)
resistance: 2 (25%)



bases 5.5 / 10 (30%)
Aran joins a bit underleveled at this point but his bases are good enough to take two hits. His speed is borderline tolerable not to get doubled by myrms when the iron lance equipped. 


growths 7 / 10 (20%)
Aran has fantastic physical growths, tied the highest strength growth with Rolf. He has the build of an armor nnight but movement of infantry. However his major problem is his poor speed. His base isn't great, much less his 35% growth. His good defense won't save him anymore when he gets doubled especially later on in part 1 and part 3. 


usefulness 3.5 / 10 (50%)
When I said that Edward is the biggest victim in HM, then I have to correct myself: It's Aran.
It's less awful not to double in case of Edward than getting doubled. Aran has to worry about his speed the entire time. Since he stats only at 7, and most units have matched or surpassed his level already, he needs tons of levels to get his speed fixed. It's similar to Edward, only with the difference that Aran's lategame is worse than Edward's. Sure, he'll beomce a decent enemy phase unit, but Nolan and Volug will that be as well (or are already) with way less investment and better perfomance at the end. In hard mode there's no spot for Aran mainly because he will get no personal weapon. Even Leo is more appreciated in part 3 for being a range weapon user.
Thunder is a great affinity for potential enemy phase units because defense and evasion are the most important stats.


overall 4.8

Edited June 21, 2018 by Hecatia Lapislazuli

[SavageVolug]

Aran joins a little weaker and lower leveled than your other units, however if you let him make some kills on the map he joins you will likely see his potential. He will be one of the Dawn Brigade's best tanks after he gets a few levels under his belt. HP, Str and Def are his strong suites, speed is meh so appreciate every point of speed he gets resistance is also poor so you will want to keep him away from mages if you can. Alternatively you can give him EXP to level up speed once str. and def. have maxed which is not uncommon. Overall Aran is a very formidable tank and powerhouse and the Dawn Brigade is going to need all the power they can get. I think I'd give Aran a 7.0 rating as I think he's a decent unit that can grow into a very good unit but he does lack speed and his avoidance is not the greatest either tending to more soak up damage than avoid it.

[Aut]

Aran is so bad. His bases are bad enough that he can’t really do much of anything early on, and his growths are such that he’s getting destroyed by anything that’s kinda fast. As far as tanking abilities go I’d prefer a unit that doesn’t have a very good chance of being ganked by a Tiger when trained (apparently not all of them have 18 speed like I thought but if one like that does shows up Aran gets destroyed if he doesn’t have 15 speed). It takes him way to long to cap ram anything, I’ll remind everyone here that his stats that he has good growths in are all 8+ levels away from being capped, and that those stats get uncapped when he promotes, which basically ruins any chance of BEXP saving his speed. He’s not the worst bad member of the dawn Brigade, but he requires a lot to get going and he runs a huge chance of being doubled by the enemies with the highest attack, hurting his durability in a big way. 4/10, not worth it.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

#9 Meg
level 3 knight
affinity: heaven
skill: fortune


bases (growths)
HP: 21 (60%)
strength: 10 (35%)
magic: 1 (15%)
skill: 7 (40%)
speed: 8 (65%)
luck: 8 (75%)
Defense: 10 (35%)
resistance: 2 (50%)


bases 2.5 / 10 (30%)
Meg's bases are really good for her level, but unfortunately worthless in the chapter she joins. 8 speed means that most tigers will ORKO her. She's ok for tanking a cat, but nothing more. 
If she had only one more speed Point more, she would be absolutely workable.


growths 4 / 10 (20%)
Her growths aren't terrible overall, but don't match her class. Her best growths have the lowest caps while her weaker growths have the highest ones. She should take Aran's growths.


usefulness 2 / 10 (50%)
As I mentioned earlier Meg would be workable, if she had just one more speed point. Even if her speed was fixed by bexp, it's not worth to train her. She's bascially a second Edward with lower movement and lower strength, but therefore vulnerable against hammers. Her good resistance isn't really needed for most of part 1 and totally useless in part 3. She should have changed Aran's class to have justified growths. 
Heaven is irrelevant until part 3, and if it's useful, then only in 3-13 to negate the Evasion boost by the Laguz.
Fortune is worthless on her since her luck (growth) is actually decent. It's only good for selling.


overall 2.55

Edited June 21, 2018 by Hecatia Lapislazuli

[SavageVolug]

Meg is one of those units in this game that can be MADE good but will require a LOT of effort for this to happen. As a knight she is terrible at her intended job of being a tank, I really don't think Meg is worth the effort it takes to get her viable. I generally bench her and sell her skill, now I have used her before but I don't think she is worth the investment. I'd give her a 2.0 rating, sorry if that seems harsh but Meg is just plain bad.

[Junkhead]

Almost thought I forgot Volug.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

35#10 Volug
level 15 wolf, beast laguz
skills: halfshift, howl 
affinity: earth


bases (growths)
HP: 49 (95%)
strength: 11 (25%)
magic: 2 (15%)
skill: 12 (35%)
speed: 13 (40%)
luck: 13 (95%)
defense: 9 (15%)
resistance: 5 (10%)


bases 10 / 10 (35%)
Thanks to halfshift his stats are perfect to tank and weak the enemies. He's even slightly stronger than Sothe, so he might ORKO more enemies.


growths 4 / 10 (15%)
As typical for Laguz their growthrates are poor. However it must be taken into account that their stats are doubled when fully transformed.


usefulness 9 / 10 (50%)
Volug comes with terrific bases. He's basically Sothe, only with higher movement and not being able to counterattack from range. His only real weakness is that he's not available in combat in the beginning turns of part 3. He defenitely needs an olivi grass which is obtainable in the shop in 1-8. Otherwise unlike Sothe he's absolutely useful in combat when he's fully transformed. He's the only one who's able to take two hits by tigers without any status boosts or bexp. levels. With S-strike he Can ORKO cats and gets some levels. He's the laguz with the highest chance of reaching S+ strike. Furthermore he has earth affinity which can make him also become a dodgetank. He's the best enemy phase unit in part 3 of the DB. In part 4 he will only work more or less as a filler, but it doesn't matter much. Only his role in the DB counts and this will be fulfilled superbly.
Howl isn't really helpful since Volug doesn't want to be attacked by range weapons especially mages. But still it's nice when an enemy is paralyzed to get a freekill in Next player phase.


overall 8.6


I weighed down the growths because Laguz don't rely on their growths but on their bases.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Hecatia Lapislazuli