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Otts486

annoying archetypes/tropes/cliches and how to fix/do them well

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Archetypes/tropes/cliches in any form of story telling is nothing new. They are everywhere because humans can only come up with so many ideas thanks to our very limited understanding of reality. It's just something you can't avoid. so My question is what are some character or story tropes/archetypes/cliches that you've seen in various movies, books, games, anime, comics, etc. that annoy you or you just don't like and how you would go about writing one correctly or even subverting or deconstructing the trope. Or heck you could even write one of your favorite archetypes and complain how it's been mistreated in recent years.

Edited by Otts486

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One of the things that I dislike is main characters that are OP for no reason. I'm completely fine with it if there is a reason for it and there is at least a little chance that something or someone can best him. However, when a character is OP for no reason with virtually no weakness, it seriously hinders the story (at least to me) in a sense that you never feel like that character is threatened and that the protagonists just won because he was lucky and blessed with being OP for no reason at all. How to fix it is honestly just try to put a reason behind everything.

I don't know if this is common or not, but another thing that I dislike is when two characters get into a relationship right away. I guess you could call it the "love at first sight" but then it just all happens immediately and the relationship feels so fake cause in reality that's not how it works. I like relationships where it takes time to build a relationship and there is a reason two characters like each other, even if its just they've spent a lot of time near each other whether it was optional or not.

Another thing, fake deaths. It's fine to me if characters go through unrealistic amount of stuff and still survive because it's fiction, but when someone totally makes it seem like a character just died (such as expressing through the other characters' reactions) and then miraculously survived without an explanation, the reader or watcher etc. can loose all trust in the author/director/etc. and so when something actually does happen, the readers/watchers may not believe it or take it seriously.

I'm not sure if this counts as a trope or cliche or whatever but also cringey friendship stuff. You probably know what I'm talking about. How to fix this is simply do it through actions or other indirect ways that a reader/watcher can still pick up on instead of a character explaining it forever in cheesy dialogue.

 

Edited by -Primal-

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There is something I want to say about Yandere. Some people complain about them and want them to go away D=. Like Lady "Butterfly" from "I don't want this kind of hero". People are hating on her so much, but I like her.

But a bit more to the topic, I like yandere characters. But on other hand I'm asking myself if it is worth to put characters into these kind of Archetype, because it takes their uniqueness. 
And Characters are also put wrongly into this archetype. Like Rena from Higurashi, she is totally not a Yandere, but some still say that she is one. And this is there this archetype has gone wrong only because she behaves like a psycho in certain moments.
Been a long time that I saw this so I cannot go much into details.

In this case the Archetype annoys me a bit even if I like those type of characters. I also like Characters like Shampoo from Ranma and it is unfair to put her into this archetype group. 

Another example of Tsundere, some people put Horo from Spice and Wolf into Tsundere, but this is also wrong in my opinion. I like her and Lawrence together who go into something like a teasing battle. They also have much fun with this, but some people say that it is her way of being Tsundere, which is also not fair to say. Because they have their own relationship and I daresay that is one of the few relationship I truly find authentic "more in the Lightnovel" which is pretty rare. But I don't want to spoil to much.

So I don't complain directly about the archetypes. But more about how putting characters into archetypes takes their personality and also makes them less complex how they really are. If it is something over the top which the author intended, maybe these can be true. But some characters are more than their archetypes.

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I don't enjoy it when we get a character that's intended to be sympathetic to the reader but still comes off as an irredeemable jackass with no entertainment value or story value.

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I'm a romantic so I hate the "you complete me" cliche. Dunno if it has a proper name on tvtropes or something. But it's when two characters finally hook up and the act of doing so just removes any character flaws they had prior to that. That's not how it works. If anything, finally hooking up with somebody prompts you to stop trying to be perfect around them and the weaknesses in your character just get amplified. I know people hate the alternative - where two people hook up and it's all drama drama drama from there. And I'll agree that a couple bickering isn't interesting but at least it allows you some room for further character development. What two people are arguing about tells you a lot about their relationship and what kind of people they are offscreen.

Edited by Glennstavos

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The catch-all answer to any problem regarding tropes and archetypes in characters is to make any given character have nuances and human-like traits.  Make it so that they don't have one-note personalities, so that they have strengths and weaknesses, and so that their interactions with other characters are varied.  You do all of that, and chances are you've already overcome whatever problems the trope might carry with it.  Tropes and archetypes don't diminish a character; lazy writing does.

The only character archetype I can think of that is difficult to fix is the loli - a character who looks like a child but is actually an adult.  There is logically no reason these characters need to look like such; Nowi could merely act immature to get pretty much the same reaction out of characters/the audience (albeit maybe a little stunted), and Nyx could have frozen her age when she was an adolescent/young adult instead (the fact that some characters treat her like a kid doesn't add much to her character, imo), to name a few instances where the childlike appearance is unnecessary.  But they look the way they do to appeal to a certain demographic.  As such, I have a hard time believing it could be fixed; one would need to find a way to make the loli aspect of these characters actually relevant to their stories without it feeling contrived.

And even then, that is only an aspect of these characters.  It hardly means I dislike those characters as a whole, I merely dislike the fact that they're made to look like children for no good reason.  It's just a part of Japanese media I don't like, and have been liking less and less recently.

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One of my nit picks of Superhero movies is how frequently there take off their mask/ helmets so that actors can have some have time. What's the point of having it if if is off most of the time? An exception to this was the reboot Judge Dredd film, where through the entire film Dredd never took off his helmet.  

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The worst trope is one that takes over the character.  No one IRL is exclusively a trope, and I don't think a fictional character should be, either.  It's excusable if said character has five seconds of screen time and has no major impact on the plot/main characters, but that's about it.

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2 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Tropes and archetypes don't diminish a character; lazy writing does.

THIS. I couldn't agree with this statement more. Too often, fiction writers find themselves relying on tropes to further certain areas of characterization, and it ends up plaguing whatever it is they're working on.

Edited by Karimlan
FTW (For the warning)

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I really hate the 'Dead relative for main character motivation' cliché that can often be found in most media - especially video games made by Ubisoft.

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This is mostly a superhero thing, but I don't like the post-Grant Morrision "Supergods" thing.

I think that the "re-construction" movement rubs me the wrong way (especially when it's done as a homage to Morrison rather than by Morrison himself) , the way it sometimes spreads into certain episodes of the BTAS and the two justice league animations, as well as live action and smaller films is endlessly tacky. 

I just find that using superman or batman (etc) this way doesn't always seem authentic the way that eg, Christopher Reeves did. Like, I do love Flex Mentallo, but in a case like that, it makes sense to use an independnet property to show your theory of superheroes off. But when this  is used in a normalized superhero story, or even a non-Morrison elseworld story  (Recently, the Dark Metal comics come to mind)  I feel like the property is being hi-jacked and rather than helping to tell the audience what they already know, eg superman/etc as a elemental ideal and fixture for American or humanity, I instead am taken out of the story and feel like I'm being told to "refer to my notes from Sequart or Rolling Stone articles. The problem with "re-construction" is that super heros aren't allowed to be "ONLY" superheros in any contet. 

As far how to do it well---- The DC One Million miniseries , Flex Mentallo and ,yes, even the classic Grant Morrison All Star Superman run. But these cases are good, because they are thematically built up and the point of those series from the begining, instead of being glued on at the last minute despite having a different creative agenda than the rest of the story. All too often "supergods" shows up to warp stories that are altogether unrelated, or even potentially counter to the idea(Red Son's final chapter comes to mind)

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I don't really like revenge as a plot anymore. Its been done to death by now so every character who's driven by it come off as boring and cliche. A lot of writers also share an inability to depict the character in questions without their drive for revenge. The moment they are done killing the one who betrayed them they just find someone else they need to exact retribution upon. The perfect examples of this being Kratos, Sasuke and Scorpion. 

I also hate Tsunderes. A lot of the time they are just irredeemable jerk who act like assholes to everyone  but are expected to be given a free pass because they're just insecure or because they have a select few people they act decently towards. Even those people are then expected to jump through hoops and walk on eggshells around the tsundere. If you're a bad person most of the time then its likely you're just a bad person in general. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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On 6/6/2018 at 2:36 PM, Jingle Jangle said:

One of my nit picks of Superhero movies is how frequently there take off their mask/ helmets so that actors can have some have time. What's the point of having it if if is off most of the time? An exception to this was the reboot Judge Dredd film, where through the entire film Dredd never took off his helmet.  

well to be fair, some heroes have it as literal armor (Iron Man, Steel, Ant Man), while others have it as a total and complete necessity for their iconic costumes (Batman, Spiderman).

With how things are, I doubt we'll really see Captain America or Star-Lord giving a crap about their helmets/etc. outside of key moments.  You might have some fun in potential future Fantastic Four movies if and when

Spoiler

Galactus takes his helmet off.

yes he does.

repeatedly.

@eclipse what about botched "deconstructions" where the writers fuck up trying to be clever?

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35 minutes ago, Czarpy said:

@eclipse what about botched "deconstructions" where the writers fuck up trying to be clever?

Then that's bad writing, and I'm not going to like it.

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One thing I don’t like is when ordinary people are given  superhuman will or determination. The worst offender of this is the author Ayn Rand in her novels “Atlas Shrugged” and “The Fountainhead”. In “Atlas Shrugged” an ordinary guy is tortured and is still defiant and boldly resisting his captors throughout the experience.

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