Lianna and Rowan should have just been Eirika and Ephraim

[HK Motendra]

17 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

I later after posting realized the class diversity issue with separate stories as well- Shadow Dragon pre-DLC had no Axe-user and it still lacks a Bow. However, back before FEW was actually a thing, I thought loads of clones with small differences would work as well. This game already has clones in it, it just doesn't choose to embrace them all the way, or lacked the funds to make that many more character models. That is another thing that differentiates it from WO, since all those character models and movesets could be imported from SW and DW.

Also, Warriors Orochi 3 did away with the separate stories thing, but still lacked a single-game focus. Besides the initial world merge established back with WO1, it chose to feature three "main" characters: Ma Chao, Sima Zhou, and Hanbei Takenaka. Hanbei is the lone Samurai Warriors rep of the three. Ma Chao and Sima Zhou are both Dynasty Warriors, but they represent different parts of the series. Ma Chao was apparently quite a star in the older pre-6 games, although he has lost some popularity and luster more recently. Sima Zhou originated in DW7, the most recent mainline title up to that point, and was the main character for most of the story of the brand new Jin faction. So in a way, you could call Ma Chao- Marth, Sima Zhou- Lucina, and Hanbei- Corrin. 

They are accompanied prominently by the OC Mystic (mythological or pseudo-historical figure from Japan or China) Kaguya, and of course others in the 100+ roster come and go in the plot. But the important thing is, no single aspect of the roster: the Mystics, the Samurai, any of the Dynastic factions of Wei, Wu, Shu, Jin, Other; nor the non-Musou crossover characters like Ryu Hayabusa of Ninja Gaiden, ever dominate things completely.

You mean Chrom, right? Although.... I suppose that's debatable, considering how Jin actually plays out (granted, I never got to play mainline 7), what with Sima Shi taking over before his untimely death and passing over to Zhao. In that vein, one could make Shi - Chrom, but with the roles somewhat inverted(?), given that it's Chrom who has the gleamstone. Then again, I might just be overthinking this comparison of yours

Otherwise, I'd agree with these similarities you present.

Though now that you mention WO3, it's quite funny how that turns out, considering how well revered each of the Samurai & Dynasty lords were, to the point that when all of them gather together there was no clear answer to whom among them would lead such a force from across time-space (before settling with Kaguya, anyway). Picking those three, out of everyone in both series to be the main characters always came off as kind of random, if you ask me, but I'm not complaining

That being said, it does beg an interesting question that, if an inevitable FEW sequel somewhere down the road were to do something similar this.'

-----------------------------

As for the actual topic at hand, if we're discussing other ways that the game's story could be structured, an alternative option could have been to take the concept of the Tempest Trials in Heroes, if not it entirely, and just kinda run with it. After all, the tempest, itself is supposed to be ripples in time-space, correct? (at least, that was the impression that I got? It'd make for an easy transition with the only question mark being what was the cause of it all. 'Course, that would also mean it'd most likely make Lucina an easy go-to main character [ which I'm unsure if I personally would be okay with, given my dislike of her "Marth" persona, but that's beside the point] , if not Anna, herself.)

Edited June 11, 2018 by Motendra
punctuation

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I will give an unpopular opinion and say that while I couldn't give less of a crap about rowan and lianna as characters, I do think that we needed a new continent to bring these games together, the reason being that if Ephraim and Erika were the main characters the story would need to start in Renis, and that would turn this into a sacred stones game, it would demand to many questions, where is seth, myrrh, fado, dussel, etc. I just don't think they could have done it without completely changing the roster (not that I would object to that) and sacred stones isn't that unpopular, it is my second favorite fire emblem and many people have a fondness for it's castat the very least.

That's a valid concern, it might be a little odd, but I'd still rather Eirika and Ephraim were in the game. Even if they got in a lone without any other Sacred Stones characters. I suppose the two of them are separated from their kingdom pretty early in the story, it's only after the Fates "arc" do they get back at which point one or two Sacred Stones characters could be introduced to represent the game.

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That's an obvious exaggeration, even if I think Shadow Dragon was the worst thing ever, and so bad it single-handedly made FE fall out of favour in my book. And you don't earnestly think I'd be here if I did dislike FE that much, now do you? If that was the case, I either would've  not stayed here for as long as I did, or I would not have bothered to join in the first place.

It's a joke. You might not have noticed, but the bulk of your content on this site seems to be showing up and expressing vehemently negative opinions about things.

[NinjaMonkey]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

• Durability is something that could be better handled indeed; as it is, it leads to hoarding and the "Too Awesome To Use" trope rearing their ugly heads.

That's not a problem with the game, but rather the player of said game.

[Shadow Mir]

19 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

That's not a problem with the game, but rather the player of said game.

It could also be a problem with the game - you really think I'm going to use braves or legendary weapons when iron and steel do the job just fine (which is very often, mind you)???

Edited June 11, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Arthur97]

Never mind the issues with making established characters the main characters. That should not happen unless maybe it's Marth.

[thecrimsonflash]

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

Never mind the issues with making established characters the main characters. That should not happen unless maybe it's Marth.

Marth would have suffered the same problems as Ephraim and Erika and in turn would have been inadvisable at best.

Also, Marth is no more deserving than any other lord to break the plot of a warriors game, you don't get a free iphone just for being first in line and I don't recall shadow dragon being regarded as a beloved masterpiece by anyone outside of lau.

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Marth would have suffered the same problems as Ephraim and Erika and in turn would have been inadvisable at best.

Also, Marth is no more deserving than any other lord to break the plot of a warriors game, you don't get a free iphone just for being first in line and I don't recall shadow dragon being regarded as a beloved masterpiece by anyone outside of lau.

Marth is kind of the Fire Emblem lord though. No, it wouldn't be very advisable, but it would probably be the least egregious. 

[thecrimsonflash]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

Marth is kind of the Fire Emblem lord though. No, it wouldn't be very advisable, but it would probably be the least egregious. 

Not really, when was the last time he was used to sell a game?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Marth would have suffered the same problems as Ephraim and Erika and in turn would have been inadvisable at best.

Also, Marth is no more deserving than any other lord to break the plot of a warriors game, you don't get a free iphone just for being first in line and I don't recall shadow dragon being regarded as a beloved masterpiece by anyone outside of lau.

He's pretty popular with the Japanese fan base. Mystery of the Emblem was out and out the best selling game by a long mile until 3DS changed everything.

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

Marth is kind of the Fire Emblem lord though. No, it wouldn't be very advisable, but it would probably be the least egregious. 

Either him or Anna. Only Fire Emblem character to actually be part of the plot in Heroes (for a given definition of plot).

1 hour ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Not really, when was the last time he was used to sell a game?

Well...this one. Marth is in the game. He's plastered up there on the box, center stage. Him and his allies are in the game, an honor not given to any other character featured in a pre2013 game. Not even most-popular-guy ever-Ike is in the game (although Lyn managed to make it in some how). Whether it be popularity or OG respect, Marth has been highlighted in this very game and among all the main lords in the series, he alone would be acceptable to lead the game without being considered unfair or strange (although someone suggested some kind of Tempest Trials thing with Lucina earlier, she's popular enough and not close enough to the main protagonist spot in Awakening that she might just be able to pull something like that off. By that I mean if they focus on some kind of world hopping plot then they could make a "Lucina game" without it being seen as an "Awakening game".)

Edited June 11, 2018 by Jotari

[Arthur97]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

He's pretty popular with the Japanese fan base. Mystery of the Emblem was out and out the best selling game by a long mile until 3DS changed everything.

Either him or Anna. Only Fire Emblem character to actually be part of the plot in Heroes (for a given definition of plot).

Well...this one. Marth is in the game. He's plastered up there on the box, center stage. Him and his allies are in the game, an honor not given to any other character featured in a pre2013 game. Not even most-popular-guy ever-Ike is in the game (although Lyn managed to make it in some how). Whether it be popularity or OG respect, Marth has been highlighted in this very game and among all the main lords in the series, he alone would be acceptable to lead the game without being considered unfair or strange (although someone suggested some kind of Tempest Trials thing with Lucina earlier, she's popular enough and not close enough to the main protagonist spot in Awakening that she might just be able to pull something like that off. By that I mean if they focus on some kind of world hopping plot then they could make a "Lucina game" without it being seen as an "Awakening game".)

A Lucina game might get more rage than an Awakening game. 

[thecrimsonflash]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well...this one. Marth is in the game. He's plastered up there on the box, center stage. Him and his allies are in the game, an honor not given to any other character featured in a pre2013 game. Not even most-popular-guy ever-Ike is in the game (although Lyn managed to make it in some how). Whether it be popularity or OG respect, Marth has been highlighted in this very game and among all the main lords in the series, he alone would be acceptable to lead the game without being considered unfair or strange (although someone suggested some kind of Tempest Trials thing with Lucina earlier, she's popular enough and not close enough to the main protagonist spot in Awakening that she might just be able to pull something like that off. By that I mean if they focus on some kind of world hopping plot then they could make a "Lucina game" without it being seen as an "Awakening game".)

Marth is centered for aesthetic purposes, he is amongst the last few characters you unlock and part of the smallest cast in the game (excluding tokens), people are here for the fates and awakening, Marth wasn't even in the teaser trailer if they wanted to sell this with marth, why did they use Chrom, Marth (and the rest of the SD cast for that matter) is just extra.

[Arthur97]

2 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Marth is centered for aesthetic purposes, he is amongst the last few characters you unlock and part of the smallest cast in the game (excluding tokens), people are here for the fates and awakening, Marth wasn't even in the teaser trailer if they wanted to sell this with marth, why did they use Chrom, Marth (and the rest of the SD cast for that matter) is just extra.

Lyn and Celica are extras. SD got a DLC pack.

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Marth is centered for aesthetic purposes, he is amongst the last few characters you unlock and part of the smallest cast in the game (excluding tokens), people are here for the fates and awakening, Marth wasn't even in the teaser trailer if they wanted to sell this with marth, why did they use Chrom, Marth (and the rest of the SD cast for that matter) is just extra.

Why was he even in the game then? As opposed to Ike or Eliwood?

[HK Motendra]

35 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Marth is centered for aesthetic purposes, he is amongst the last few characters you unlock and part of the smallest cast in the game (excluding tokens), people are here for the fates and awakening, Marth wasn't even in the teaser trailer if they wanted to sell this with marth, why did they use Chrom, Marth (and the rest of the SD cast for that matter) is just extra.

If you recall early interviews, the devs regarded Marth as a necessity for the game; that it wouldn't be Fire Emblem without him:

Quote

Hayashi: Yes. So among those three titles, the reason why we chose Shadow Dragon is simple. A Fire Emblem without Marth is not a Fire Emblem after all.

https://nintendoeverything.com/fire-emblem-warriors-devs-on-how-the-game-came-to-be-choosing-characters-games-original-characters-more/2/

No other character in the game has this, aside from perhaps Lucina (by Ninendo's part, anyway). That, along with the fact that he, alongside Chrom, was among the first characters to be announced. That Chrom was the first to be shown is because he was the very first to be created. Everything else regarding Shadow Dragon as a whole in this game is a matter of unfortunate circumstance that can't be used against Marth. You could even say that they are in the game solely because of Marth

Edited June 11, 2018 by Motendra

[Jotari]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:53 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

From where I'm standing, Sacred Stones is also rather divisive. The lack of length and difficulty result in it getting a lot of flak. And yes, I would say that Lianna and Darios are better than Eirika and Lyon because the latter two aren't exactly a high bar to clear. After all, we ARE talking about a character who gave away a MacGuffin willingly despite there being no reason to, and a character who spent most of the game being supplanted in terms of relevance by the Grado generals, most of whom weren't exactly memorable or amazing as characters.

Thinking on this (because I have a mild bout of insomnia), given how Rowan and Lianna were so completely convinced Dario's was good deep down and were even willing to throw down their weapons when he threatened to kill their mother (directly after he revealed he planned to kill her regardless to accomplish his goals), there's little doubt in my mind that both of them would have fallen hook, line and sinker to the calibur of deception that Lyon pulled off.

[NinjaMonkey]

19 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It could also be a problem with the game - you really think I'm going to use braves or legendary weapons when iron and steel do the job just fine (which is very often, mind you)???

Legendary weapons usually come into play during the lategame chapters - at which point most players would have ditched iron and steel weapons completely.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Why was he even in the game then? As opposed to Ike or Eliwood?

Marth is the mascot of the FE series, just like Link is the mascot of the Legend of Zelda series.

[Shadow Mir]

11 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Legendary weapons usually come into play during the lategame chapters - at which point most players would have ditched iron and steel weapons completely.

And yet if the enemies aren't threatening enough to warrant the use of legendary weapons, then I don't see the need to use them.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Interdimensional Observer]

21 hours ago, Motendra said:

Though now that you mention WO3, it's quite funny how that turns out, considering how well revered each of the Samurai & Dynasty lords were, to the point that when all of them gather together there was no clear answer to whom among them would lead such a force from across time-space (before settling with Kaguya, anyway). Picking those three, out of everyone in both series to be the main characters always came off as kind of random, if you ask me, but I'm not complaining

I get the sense that they intentionally didn't want the patriarchs to represent WO3. Picking Nobunaga, Ieyasu, Sun Jian/Ce/Quan, Cao Cao, Liu Bei, or Sima Yi would have created issues with the 3 PCs only at any time deal, which they hammer home by making it so in the final battles, the recommended trio is always Ma Chao/SIma Zhao/Hanbei. Which factions gets left out of the main trio? KT couldn't decide who, so they opted for a way around this.

The patriarchs are the essence of their factions, they live it, they breathe it, it is impossible for them to escape it. Ma Chao and Sima Zhao can escape being Shu and Jin, and Hanbei can escape being Toyotomi, because they aren't the foremost political leaders with political ambitions (and mind you Jin isn't actually split from Wei in WO), just soldiers. The relations between the chosen trio can be more relaxed and friendly, Ma Chao patting Sima Zhao on the back is believable, Cao Cao doing that with Liu Bei or even the Oda is not, they won't be so rosy with a rival.

This said, I do prefer the good ending's NPC allies lineup compared to the best ending's. Whereas in the final battle you've with a random assortment of allies on the best ending with no real rhyme or reason- Motochika and Yueying among them I think; on the good ending, you get the Oda, Tokugawa, Wei, Wu, and Shu patriarchs, all with some of their best underlings with them.

 

I do hope a FEW2 takes a WO-ensemble approach though. FE is big enough not to need many OCs, just a token one or two.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Legendary weapons usually come into play during the lategame chapters - at which point most players would have ditched iron and steel weapons completely.

Marth is the mascot of the FE series, just like Link is the mascot of the Legend of Zelda series.

Yeah, exactly. That's why I was arguing that of all the characters in the series, he'd make the most sense to be the protagonist of a game like this.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I get the sense that they intentionally didn't want the patriarchs to represent WO3. Picking Nobunaga, Ieyasu, Sun Jian/Ce/Quan, Cao Cao, Liu Bei, or Sima Yi would have created issues with the 3 PCs only at any time deal, which they hammer home by making it so in the final battles, the recommended trio is always Ma Chao/SIma Zhao/Hanbei. Which factions gets left out of the main trio? KT couldn't decide who, so they opted for a way around this.

The patriarchs are the essence of their factions, they live it, they breathe it, it is impossible for them to escape it. Ma Chao and Sima Zhao can escape being Shu and Jin, and Hanbei can escape being Toyotomi, because they aren't the foremost political leaders with political ambitions (and mind you Jin isn't actually split from Wei in WO), just soldiers. The relations between the chosen trio can be more relaxed and friendly, Ma Chao patting Sima Zhao on the back is believable, Cao Cao doing that with Liu Bei or even the Oda is not, they won't be so rosy with a rival.

This said, I do prefer the good ending's NPC allies lineup compared to the best ending's. Whereas in the final battle you've with a random assortment of allies on the best ending with no real rhyme or reason- Motochika and Yueying among them I think; on the good ending, you get the Oda, Tokugawa, Wei, Wu, and Shu patriarchs, all with some of their best underlings with them.

 

I do hope a FEW2 takes a WO-ensemble approach though. FE is big enough not to need many OCs, just a token one or two.

I'd be cool if Alphonse and Shareena became the default "noncanon" characters to go to for every experimental game. Instead of dozens of new OCs each game, just stick to a single pair. But well, given that Rowan and Lianna now exist, things will probably not go down that route. At the very least if Warriors does get a sequel, Rowan and Lianna will make more sense as they'll be established already (cut to two years from now where they've been removed, or worse, replaced with another pair of identical sword wielding OCs)

Edited June 12, 2018 by Jotari